What ingredients are necessary for a discipleship model that will raise up men and women, boys and girls who look and act like Jesus?

October 14, 2014 1 1 comments

Plans are underway for a “refresh” that will energize Bible discovery, invigorate small group leaders, and enliven the evangelistic mission of sharing God’s Word with our friends!

September 8, 2014 0 1 comments
Resource, Lesson or Study

The story of a car salesman and his new found love, Jesus Christ, and the call to make disciples. How are you doing in the field where God has placed you to disciple others?

September 3, 2014 0 0 comments
Discussion Topic

“I will be visiting a close relative in the next couple of weeks. My relative is not a Christian. I would love to give them a pamphlet or small book which explains the gospel. What would you suggest?”

August 5, 2014 0 3 comments
Resource, Article

Bible engagement is critical for spiritual growth. What kind of small group enviornment encourages Bible engagement? What kind of leader can help cultivate such a group?

July 21, 2014 1 6 comments

Small Groups carry a lot of weight in churches. We expect that if people participate in groups they will grow and change. What change are we working toward and how do we know if it happened?

May 13, 2014 0 0 comments
Resource, Lesson or Study

A Bible study for new Christians who would like to have a better understanding of the stories of the Bible.

April 9, 2014 0 0 comments
Resource, Book or Booklet

This is the final blog in a five part book review series on the books by Mike Breen and the 3DM Team on missional communities. Today, Ruth Kelder shares her report on Breen’s newest book, Covenant and Kingdom and how the "assignment" to read it gave her valuable, new insights about scripture.

April 8, 2014 0 2 comments
Resource, Book or Booklet

This is part four of a five part book report series on Mike Breen and the 3DM team’s books on missional communities. The reports have been prepared by leaders who are on the journey of developing a discipleship ministry in their churches...

April 1, 2014 0 0 comments

First CRC in Denver is trying something new with their Sunday School. Read about their intergenerational Sunday School experiment and what they have learned from it! 

February 12, 2014 0 2 comments

CrossPoint’s discipleship strategy may be the simplest and most used word in our vocabulary, yet the most difficult of words to truly live out – LOVE.  The Shema (found in Deut. 6:5) gives a complete picture of what a disciple looks like and does.  CrossPoint has shaped our call to be disciples who disciple in three simple steps...

January 23, 2014 0 2 comments

Here's the take away: There is not a one-size-fits-all discipleship strategy. Jesus discipled his own disciples differently as they grew in faith. How are our churches equipping people in all varieties of faith development.  Mike Johnson shares his wisdom and expertise about faith development in today's blog.

January 19, 2014 0 0 comments

Drew Angus and Paul Ingeneri join the conversation by sharing tools for growing adult new believers.

January 4, 2014 0 0 comments

We're hoping to do a mid- year ministry fair to highlight some existing groups and new groups that are starting, but it is the first time that we have ever done a ministry fair.  Right now we're thinking of doing it right after the morning service, with various tables set up around the...

January 3, 2014 0 1 comments

Western Seminary is offering a course on Commonly Misunderstood Verses of the Bible for small groups. The 12 week format, starting January 7, is very flexible. Your group can register for only $50.00. What a cool opporunity for those groups that like to go deep! Learn more here...

December 17, 2013 0 0 comments

One year ago, Ferrysburg Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan launched a missional community in a neighboring apartment complex. Pastor Nate Visker shares some reflections on what they expected, current reality and what they have learned...

November 19, 2013 0 14 comments

Read an interview with Sue Prins, the Discipleship Coordinator of Providence CRC in Holland. She answers: "What is your congregation's picture of a disciple of Jesus? What is the current design or shape of your church’s discipleship ministry? What is the current design or shape of your church’s discipleship ministry? What is your most effective way of developing leaders? How do you instill the DNA of multiplication in your ministry? and more...

November 5, 2013 0 0 comments

“Why do Christian need to pray? Because prayer is the most important part of the thankfulness God requires of us. And also because God gives his grace and Holy Spirit only to those who pray continually and groan inwardly, asking God for these gifts and thanking him for them.” (Heidelberg  Catechism #116).

October 22, 2013 0 4 comments

A couple of weeks ago, my friend John Rozeboom emailed a question: “Sam, can you recommend or point me to a member spiritual gift inventory that can be self-administered, is simple and straightforward.”

September 24, 2013 0 0 comments

The Michigan summer has been great for apples. My favorite farmers market is brimming with baskets of fresh, crispy  apples – Honey crisp, Zester, Macintosh – and zucchini, peppers, melons, corn, peaches. Is your mouth watering? Harvest time is so exciting. 

September 9, 2013 0 0 comments
Discussion Topic
Seeking God’s Face offers a user-friendly approach to the “daily office” form of prayer and devotions. Written and compiled by Philip F. Reinders, this book includes an entire year of daily prayers and Scripture readings to enrich your prayer and devotional life. Each day of prayer includes an...
September 5, 2013 0 0 comments

I am so glad that our loving Father is the one who prunes because we can trust his motives and methods. As we consider leading a group or ministry, what can we learn about the pruning process?

September 3, 2013 0 0 comments



Nate & Allen, awesome stuff... thought provoking to say the least.

@ Nate - I am realizing [-bowling reference coming-] the lane of orthodxy is much wider than what seminary taught.  There is a lot of room, but things can still jump into the gutter if not handled properly.  Really excited to see oversight by you and your elders... I think that's critical.   As for the slower aspect...I think slower is better.  Innovation feels great, but innovation unchecked and unordered leads to a fast start but major fizzle down the road.  Releasing missional communities should be like how we handle our children... tight at first, seasoned with grace, fully pushing them out the door, seasoned with grace.

@Allen - What's retirement?  Yes... the two paradigms are certainly at odds with each other, but the answer isn't one or the other, its BOTH / AND (bullet point above).  I am serving a church that has two churches in one.  They fit your paradigm description to the T.  I am convinced that each side needs to "seek understanding, before being understood."  The missional minded people and their directions leaves them isolated from a greater work of the Spirit and the institutional minded people and their directions leads to plateau and even death... So I affirm your vision work and dialogue with your church.  It's not easy and even downright frustrating.  The BOTH / AND is the solution... It's matter of truly asking ourselves, do we really believe the gospel and are we willing to live it out?  If so, both paradigms can live in harmony.  In fact, are dependent on each other.  Which in turn, IMHO, has been the bibical approach all along.  There is nothing new under the sun... 

I don't know much about the the immigrant church, so I can't really comment.  Drawing from the name you've given them, doesn't the immigrant church already have mission in their DNA or they wouldn't have been looking for something better...or bigger...or deeper... a greater expression of the Kingdom? 


Sorry I meant to say, "discerning the institutional church's role in all of this."

This stuff if very timely for me as well, Brian.  Kudos on going for the DMin.  I thought about it, but decided I wanted to enjoy my last 15 years before official retirement age -- although I hope I don't HAVE to then.  Anyway, I am in process of discerning the church's (institution) in all off this.  I wonder if there are not some opposing paradigms in the midst of all this that are creating the strain between the "Mission" communities and "Church" communities.  The MC believes they are being church in the intentional everyday, the way it was originally intended with a gathering once a week or every-so-often to corporately celebrate the Spirit's work.  On the other hand, those in the "Church" institution see church more as a place and an event led by the scholars and layity who know their stuff, thus minimizing the need for the rest to "really know their stuff".  Discipleship is minimized and Church is separated from the everyday being on mission to, if nothing else, just living a good moral life.  Those are two very different paradigms at odds with each other.  

How does an immigrant church community see themselves on mission if it was never in their DNA from the outset?  Mission then becomes a program (outreach), is something you sign up for and do from time to time. But like the institutional church, mission is a separate entity from your life -- a thing on your list of things to do.  It's not part and parcel of who you ARE, your identity, like it seemed to be for those early Christians.

So my question then is how do we connect those two paradigms in a healthy way and is it even possible?

Good thoughts, Brian.  Now that I understand your initial question better, I would also add that our MCs are coached by the pastor (me) and are accountable to the elders.  I sometimes think we worry too much about heresy springing up in things we don't tightly control.  The goal of our MCs is to announce God's kingdom and make disciples.  As long as there is strong accountablilty to that goal, I believe orthodoxy will take care of itself.  MCs described by the names you mentioned are indeed more like house churches.  Soma Communities are a good example of MCs that have a strong tie to an organization.  I wonder, however, if this makes them slower to multiply?

Great thread on a timely and necessary discussion, especailly for the CRC.

I am currently working on my D.min at Fuller Seminary around this whole community idea, but that doesn't make me an expert in any way.  I am pleased to see something unfold in Larry's comment and Nate's as well.  Both have expressed that there is at least, in someway, the idea that the Missional Communities that have formed or are being formed, are tying back into the larger congregation.  Standing on the window sill of this massive conversation looking out at the landscape, if connection to the originating congregation doesn't happen, something tragic will be on THE CHURCH'S doorstep before we know it.  The unintentional killing off of thousands of churches all for the sake of being missional.  Let's not forget what has brought us this far.

The idea of missional communities, if practiced the way people like Guder, McNeal, Van Gelder, Zscheile, etc. are promoting, then lets call them what they are.  Church plants.  But keep in mind, it's inevitible that missional communities are going to need some sort of institutional or organizational capacity or things like theology and sacrament will derail faster than my fantasy football team at crunch time.  Culture has a sneaky powerful way of shaping any community that is relying on the hospitality of the stranger or "target" of the missional community.  Jesus can quickly become something other than Jesus because we are all broken and fleshly.  Hence, IMHO, the NEED to tie into the larger church.  Accountability with the rule of faith and life is necessary, but accountability is taboo in our me first culture.

two more cents...



Home Missions is partnering with ECO Presbyterian (a new presbyterian denomination) in creating a pathway to bring missional communities into established churches. We had our first gathering/training a couple of weeks ago. ECO is having Faith Alive both edit and publish the materials.  One of the very good things about the ECO missional community strategy is that is has both training and coaching for those who are establishing missional communities. Also because it is working with established congregations it seems to have a good feel for how to bring MCs into that context. This work is just beginning but we hope to see it ramp up in the next 6-8 months.

This is a good discussion on this.  It is heavy on my heart and plate. I've been trying to see if our church could even get back to the missional community aspect of the church.  I long for this in myself.  We already live like this and have begun to more intentionally form a missional community.  Our people don't know what to make of the way we live.  When I bring up the Missional Community to our leadership they look at me with blank stares and wonder what planet I'm from. They're in a programatic mode. I encourage reading.  I can't get anyone to look into this with any sort of desire or initiative.  I'm personally struggling with this and whether or not God is saying something new to my wife and me.

We discovered that about 5% of our congregation had the pre-existing qualifications to lead an MC.  I'll get 2, maybe 3 MCs out of that.  So I've started a process of developing missional leaders that can lead an MC down the road.  It's hard to have patience, but I believe that God will use what we're doing now in wonderful ways in 5 years.  All that to say I really believe you have to start with the leaders and build from there.

Sam, I think I understand what you mean by the term "missional community strategy."  But I want to be clear that I don't see MCs as just another strategy (like direct mail or seeker sensitive worship).  For us, it is the future of our congregation.  It's more than a way to reach unchurched people.  I believe it's what God is leading us to become - a congregation of MCs.

It was interesting to talk to different people at the conference. People are applying the missional community strategy in a variety of ways. One leader told me they learned that they needed to start with vision. They wanted to launch 25 MC's. It didn't work. they regrouped and discovered 12 leaders with a very specific mission focus - local elementary school, a neighborhood, or a topic like homeless people, etc.. People gathered around the vision into 12 MC's of varying size. Some MC's have two or three groups (about 30 - 40 people) others have 8 - 12.

Hi Brian,

We've been able to maintain a pretty strong connection to the group we sent into the apartment community.  Many of them still attend our Sunday worship service regularly.  We've released them from the ways they were volunteering within the congregation so they could focus on the neighborhood.  But we still see them regularly on Sunday morning.  We make a point of praying for this group in our congregational prayers.  We also try to get a brief update from one of them about once a month during our worship service.

Some of the people from the apartment complex have started coming to our worship service, but most who meet with this group do not.  We were clear that our goal was not to get people to come to our worship services, but simply to help them find a spiritual community on their own turf.  I hope this helps.

This is quite interesting to me... my one questions however, is how does this missional community tie back into the larger church from which it was sent?  Is that even an option or desired within the MC? 

We've drawn on a lot of stuff from 3DM.  Our iteration of MCs is probably a little more oriented around a network or neighborhood than 3DM.  We've decided to start with a missional context, while their MCs start with the community of people in the MC.  So many different ways to skin this cat.  

Allen, if you ever want to talk more, feel free to contact me.

Hi Allen,

What are your thoughts about launching missional communities in a rural setting? Any ideas?

I attended the 3DM Discipleship and Mission conference in Holland this week. I learned (again) contextualizing is very important. The session leaders make it seem like there is a one size fits all strategy, but as I talked with them I learned they all are adapting the concepts to fit their unique situation. I asked one leader if they only have missional communities.  He said they tried that and learned quickly they needed other types of groups. They have missional communities AND alpha, parenting groups, etc. Good to know

Great to hear.  I've been processing for quite some time now how this may be possible in a more rural setting.

I believe that R. DeLange of Edmonton Trinity, of Classis Alberta North is planning this for the first week in January. 


Do you know who is planning the Western Canada prayer summit?


You can add Classis Alberta North to the list!  Trinity CRC in Edmonton will be hosting a Prayer Summit on January 5, 2014.  It's the vision of Pastor Rich deLange of Trinity and Pastor Walt Brouwer of Classis Alberta North who both returned from April's  California summit with the same feeling that God was laying this on their hearts.  They felt that the best way to start the new year was by being in prayer for our churches, members, ministries and programs.  Planning is well underway, and we hope that each of the churches in our classis will send at least one representative.  Keep us in your prayers that everything comes together for the glory of God. 

You say that your small group loves to talk.  That talk could be introduced as prayer if God were included right from the beginning.

The talk becomes prayer as the awareness of  God 's prescence  increases throughout the time spent together.

Why do we need to repeat our  talk when we have acknowledged that the entire gathering is a prayer to God?



posted in: Prayer Time Phobia

Interesting question. I also pondered that question. I would love to hear what you think!  


Sam, your gardening analogy is interesting.   I like my garden with potatoes as high as my pockets, and peas, beets, carrots doing their thing.  Weeds are probably the biggest hindrance to growing a good garden, with fertility a big second, after moisture, of course.  In your analogy, it would be interesting to imagine what the "weeds" are that we need to pull out, in order for the garden to thrive.  And how do we pick these weeds without hurting the crop we want? 

Planning a garden with others involves sharing input and compromising on ideas. Flowers or vegetables? Perenials or annuals? etc.

Planning a small group ministry also involves sharing of ideas and compromise. 10 people or 20 people per group? Bible study or book study? Keep the same groups or mix them up?

Prayer and communication are definitely important aspects of healthy small groups.

posted in: Preparing to Plant

Hi Craig,

Great question! From my experience there are many different answers!

I have been writing some blogs about how leading a small group discipleship ministry is like gardening. I think it also applies to multiplication. Think about how plants multiply. There is not a one-size-fits all approach. I have some hostas in my flower beds. I can rip those apart just about any time during the growing season and they survive. Other plants start with seed, cuttings or bulbs. Some plants you have to cut back. Other plants need great care and encouragement to multiply.

All of these ideas translate to small groups. Some groups are hardy, easy to split. They understand the vision, have leadership skills, etc - like hostas. Others need great encouragement. Some groups send off one or two member to start a group - like a cutting. Some groups of new people start with a seed vision and launch a new group.

I have also learned that multiplication requires leadership (or gardeners). It is not going to happen without someone praying, casting vision, encouraging and equipping leadership.

What do you think?


Great question and topic, Craig. I've been thinking about this too, and eager to hear from others about it.

It seems like a core question is - what's the purpose(s) of a small group? If it's to support each other through the ups and downs of life, that would lend itself to long-standing groups and deep relationships. But if the purpose is to welcome and enfold new members and new Christians, then multiplications seems critical. 

In my own small group experience, we're trying to doing both. And it does lead to some real discernment every year when we talk about plans for the next year, who will be continuing, whether to split, whether to invite new members, etc.

I don't have an answer, unfortunately, but my observation is that the question is really one of 'what's our small group about?'. 

Other experiences and observations?

Great question! In prayer I have time in my own mind to be open to the Paraklete.

Thanks for you comments!

Thanks Sam, I love Bonhoeffer's writings.  These things sound so simple yet seem so difficult for people in a "me first" society. I often wonder if a key reason many of our churches struggle is this very issue of not being able to truly serve one another.  It's so much more than getting some meals together for a hurting family.  We've recently talked about this with our small group leaders and in our council.  How do we walk the journey together?  How do we love unconditionally and live intentionally?

Great stuff Sam.


Sam, thank you for this posting. I am leading our adult Sunday School classes this month in a series on Community - What This Means in the Church. It is good to be reminded that, as the body of Christ, we should look to the Trinity as our ultimate example of community. I also have learned a lot from reading Bonhoeffer's book on this subject. Another author I've enjoyed studying is Jean Vanier, founder of L'Arche Communities. He has written several books on community, especially as it pertains to reaching out to those with disabilities.

There is a wonderful new series of studies for women that our women's group is doing by Nancy Guthrie, called "seeing Jesus in the Old Testament. So far there are three 10-week studies. The first one covers Genesis, the second covers the rest of the Pentateuch. Book number 4 covers the Wisdom books. The fourth one, which should be published later this spring will be (book 3) seeing Jesus in the History books. For more info., you can visit the website

How great that you can share your wonderful SCE project with so many - and have your final report do double duty!

I know what you mean. I hate to spend money too. You can search on their website for freebies. Might be a little out of date, but it's still good stuff.

Thanks Sam,

I really like the organic gardening image as well.  Although I'm afraid the initial steps for whoever may answer the call to tend our small-group garden may have to coach a little transplanting or grafting of some flowering shrubs with untamed vines, as well as the usual opening up to more light and water ;-)

I would certainly still value seeing whatever job descriptions you're willing to share,so that our Ed Team folks and I may consider what aspects could apply to our situation.  Of course, we will also be in need of good training and evaluation tools to offer or suggest...working on downloading some stuff from right now.

Thanks again for all your insights!

Boy who would have guessed that there's a whole website domain created just for supporting small groups with a name like that?  Sometimes the answer is so much closer and easier than we can imagine!  Thanks for the pointer Steve!  There's a ton of stuff here ...although my genetic sensors are hurting because I may actually have to pay a little for it...I'll let you know if it exceeds my budget :)

Our small groups ("Life Groups") are on a schedule where there are 3 "seasons" per year where church members sign up each season for a group. Because of that, many of the tasks of our coordinator are related to the cyclical nature of organizing and promoting the groups, but here are a few bullet points from our description that might be relevant to working with group leaders:

  • Recruit, Train, Develop and Recognize Life Group Leaders
  • Provide Life Group Leader training
  • Recognize and thank Life Group Leaders
  • Follow up with Group Leaders throughout the season to provide support and assistance as needed

Other tasks that might be helpful for any small group ministry:


  • Champion and promote the Life Groups mission: Grow, Connect, Serve
  • Seek out stories of Crossroads members who grew through Life Groups and who will share their story with the church (testimonies) and/or tell the story of Life Groups through videos or other creative presentations.
  • Create and send surveys to church members, and review results for effectiveness of Life Groups
  • Manage Life Groups budget


I think training is a big one, and in a scenario where groups are ongoing, providing training on a periodic basis both helps your leaders learn ways to develop and keep a healthy group going.

We run on an 8-12 week season typically, and each leader is contacted as often as weekly through the season. All are contacted after their first meeting, and then the small group leader is asked how often they want to be contacted and in what way (phone or email usually.) I am in a different ministry role, but one that also means that I "check in" regularly with various leaders. Even if they don't need anything, they appreciate a call. Often, however, they have a question or two, and it gives me a chance to help them and just remind them I'm available if they ever need anything. 

We also ask our leaders to help us find future leaders by identifying group members who demonstrate gifts that would make them a good leader. Sometimes these people are asked to fill in as leaders when the main leader can't be there, for example, and/or are approached to lead or co-lead a group in the next season.

I attended a small group training earlier this year that was produced by Saddleback church, and they had a strategy for splitting larger groups into two smaller groups so that the healthy group could multiply. Essentially, the leader would identify 1-2 people in the large group who might make good leaders, and over time, gradually trained them by asking them to lead smaller, then larger portions of the meetings. Or, the one large group would sometimes split into two smaller groups for a some parts of the discussion, then reconvene later to share what they talked about and close the meeting. Over time, then, some groups are able to split and then make room for more members.

They also said that in response to someone who wants to join a group, they will ask them to consider starting a new group (instead of joining an existing group) by finding others who are interested in meeting. They also mentioned that their church has a variety of "off the shelf" materials they can hand out to a leader to make it easy for them to get started, which may not be the case in your church. 

Just food for thought, and I've heard before that (as a previous poster suggested) is a great resources.

 Hi Reese,

I have some small group coordinator job descriptions. However, they are very specific to the congregations. In coaching small group ministry coordinators, I have found the garden illustration to be very helpful. Like a gardener, small group coordinators need to provide continuing vision, care and support for the leaders and groups.  I use the following roles and questions as an outline for coaching small group disicplehsip leaders.

Roles in cultivating an enviroment for growth:

Picture – Who is God calling us to be?

Plan – How will we follow God’s leading in our context? What will our garden of small groups look like?

Prepare – How will we prepare our leaders and congregation for growing people through small groups?

Planting – How and when will we start? stop? What is our growing season? What are the lifecycles of our groups?

Protect and Problem solve – How will we care for leaders and groups?

Pruning – How will we develop leaders and groups for the future?

Propagate - How will we multiply groups and leaders?

Pause and Pray – How will we cooperate with God’s leading?

I'm going to be writing more about each of these roles over the next several weeks. If you would like a sample job description, let me know.

Sam Huizenga

Well Henry, I agree that as the Church, we need to focus and proclaim more of Jesus and His sacrifice - that's why I love the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf...  yesterday's devotional by Oswald Chambers in his My Utmost for His Highest also confirmed what you have shared...

but I think there is a place for personal testimonies as well,even in their weak, imperfectness, to encourage fellow believers...  recognizing that each testimony is a gift as well, and so giving God the glory...  we can have contempt for our part in it, but I think we have to be careful about being contemptuous of what God via the Holy Spirit is doing when He gives us Divine insight/direction/leading/guiding as Scripture tells us He does and will..

in another post you mentioned something about how do we know if it's God or self, or the enemy, and you gave an example of a father killing his children...  a simple test of lining it up with scripture would discern that is not God, He is life, He tells us to choose life, He commands us not to kill...   but some might argue that God allowed His Son to be killed and so indirectly He killed Jesus, because He could have prevented it... but we know Jesus willingly went to the cross for the joy that was set before Him...

and yes, some/many might use it so they can disregard their own responsibility...  I think of the convictions the Spirit has put on my heart, that made sense with Who God is, but were totally counter intuitive from an intellectual perspective... ie giving/tithing whatever you want to call it, particularly in a struggling economy... cutting back on my work, so I could be more available for my family... made NO SENSE economically... by my budget, we should be broke and out on the street, with no assets left...   that hasn't happened, although it has been tight for the last several years, but He has been training us in Prov. 3, spending a lot more wisely, and investing in His Kingdom, instead of our earthly kingdom..  it has been a difficult, but incredible journey of trusting Him and drawing closer to Him, we have seen His outpouring of blessing on our lives so many ways, most significantly with Proverbs 3 wealth aka wisdom (v13-18)!  So those are my weak and imperfect words, but the amazing journey He gave us, is because of Him and Who He is...  for His Glory which includes the supremacy of Christ! (Col 1:18)


The thesis of the original blog was that beleivers ought to be in more intimate relationships with God so that they can tell others about their spiritual expriences as a means of leading them to Christ. 

My question:  Why should I want to talk about my weak, imperfect, and incomplete "spiritual" experiences (which I really have no way of evaluating) when I can talk about the perfect,  powerful, complete, and saving "spiritual" experiences of the Risen, one crucified Christ.  I experience the life of faith because of who he is and what he has done and is doing. 

While scripture gives a great deal of info about the life of faith it is very clear that the content of the gospel that is God's power unto salvation is the "spiritual" experiences of Jesus of Nazareth.  I use that name because the apostles do in the book of Acts. In Acts 22:8 when Paul asks - who are you Lord, Jesus responds, " I am Jesus of Nazareth".

It appears to me that most believers think of Jesus primarily in terms of his deity.  Resurrection, however, is not a catagory that applies to deity.  Our flesh was nailed to the cross.  Our flesh, in the person of Jesus , came out of the grave.  At the Lord's Supper we don't talking  about breathing in "spirit" but we talk in very fleshly language about eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus.   As man he earned our salvatiion and is now the glorified man, the first fruits of all believer who shall be raised by him. 

My words about my life are not "gospel".  My words about Jesus life ARE "gospel" for it is not my personal story but the personal story of Jesus himself.

The disciples were not sent out into the world to talk about their life's experiences but about His.

Unfortunately, it is all too easy to want to place ourselves at the center and talk about ourselves.  How hard it is to listen.

But as Paul says, and I paraphrase (II Cor. 4:5 - We preach not our own spiritual experiences but we preach the spiritual experiences of Jesus as Lord.

I respond by asksing  how does anyone to what job they are called? 

Our vocal speech is always an expressions of that inner voice that never quits talking, at least mine does not.  We call it thinking.  In my head I have only ever heard one voice.  I have never heard an voice obviously distince from mine.  I honestly can say I have never heard "voices".

Now private revelation is highly subjective.  There are people who claim that God talks directly to them and usually its about decisions that have to be made - what job to take - what person to marry - what mode of transportation to take, etc. 

The huge problem that I see - is that the person decides which thoughts in their heads are from God.  Furthermore, God is not the only one who can influence us.  Apparently devils can, I and I suspect the ministering spirits call angels can.  By what standards does a person decide when God is talking?  Many years ago in this general area a man killed his two young sons because God told him to do so.

The only place I hear God talking is in the bible, but since God promised to write his word in our hearts, that content of that word becomes part of the fabric of our being.   That content, in one form or another,  frequently enters into my thoughts.  And that word is primarily concerned with faith and obedience.  We may often be too concerned with what is called God's hidden will for our lives.  I have no idea how to discern that.  But his revealed will is very plain and clear.  That ought to be our primary concern.

Also, saying God told me is the positive side of the devil made me do it.  I believe that both of these are simply ways to escape our human responsibility to make choices and decisions.  I do not know all the reasons why I felt I should go into the ministry.  As a candidate I receive one call.  As far as I knew there were no other options in the works.  We were taught (rightly or wrongly) that our internal calling had to be verified by an external call from a congregation.  The choice seemed quite simple.  I had a viable option set before me.  While believing that Christ is always active in our lives by his Holy Spirit, and asking for wisdom, I made a decision which was entirely my responsibility.  I heard no strange voices or whisperings in my ear.  I honestly do not know any other way of operating.   I blieve that God payed us a huge compliment by not making us robots or puppets that he controls.

"l;iving in the shadow of the church" was simply a geographical statement.  I deeply apreciate the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12) but my exprience in the instituted church has been both very positive and negative.  My security however, is not first of all in the "church" but in Christ himself (LD 1).  All the blessings of salvation are found in him alone.  Fellow beleiver can be both helpful and disappointing.  I have often been amazed at the instant raport established (by Christ) when you find out a complete stranger is a fellow brother or sister.  How little time we have to really get to know each other.  How eager I am for the return of the risen Lord and the redemptions of our bodies ( our entire persons actually) and the renewal of all creation.  Think of life in this creation with any sin in it.  I have met so many interesting people along the way that I look forward to renewing those acquaintances.  We will never run out of time and nothing can hurt or destroy those friendships. 

Unfortunately, most beleiver have been taught and think that they are going to "heaven" forever.  What is the most common understanding of "heaven".  That is where souls go when bodies go into the ground.  That tends to transfer in the "future heaven"  Many years ago I heard one minister say "do you like to be in church (worship service).  Well you better because that is what heaven is going to be like." 

An interesting fact - that the OT church was never promsed a "heaven" but was promised that they would dwell in the land in peace and prosperity.  The bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is God's eternal commitment to the created order and our own creatureliness.   He already is the new creation that we will some day experience along with the entire creation.   That is the clear NT promise.  Since the NT church is in reality Israel gathering the nations into herself - we too share in all the OT promises - every promise made in the OT was fulfilled in Christ.  Paul says at the end of I Thess 2, and I paraphrase - the greatest thrill of my life will be to see you standing with me in the presence of Christ..  While our lives in this time have eternal significane - the best is yet to come.

It is kind of nice to be able to agree with everyone, with Jim, and Henry, and Bev and Michael Bentley, all at the same time.  Experiencing truth, and delighting in it!   Henry's statement that he lived in the shadow of the church all his life.... how about maybe you lived in the warmth and security of the church, in the sunlight of God's Word all your life?   Same life, same experience, but different perception of that experience, and thus a different experience.... 

Loved all your comments!  

Henry, I have to go with Bev on this one. I'm not “charismatic” enough to hang out in the same room with a Pentacostal believer, but the idea that we don't “experience” the spiritual reality of Christ’s resurrection is simply impossible. We are flesh and spirit humans – not positronic machines ineracting with data. Humans experience truth even when we deny it – the truth of the cross, the resurrection, the Spirit’s calling, regeneration and sanctification – all of it. From what I believe by reading the same Word of God you read, I know that I must experience God’s work – not merely affirm or deny it. From the Word, I alsow know that I am not “superior” to any other Chrsitian, because we all “experience” God’s work in some way. In this continual experiencing, we know what is of God and what is of our self (or the devil) because the Word tells us. God’s Word does not end our experiencing truth – he norms our experiencies. All praise and glory to the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

re-reading your posts, Henry, I have another question for you... how did you know you were called to be a pastor (maybe I'm wrong about you being a pastor, but that's what i understand from you "entering the ministry" in your 20's)?  You say God has never told you what call to take, or what car to buy... so then when pastors are "called"... what do they mean?  

Regarding spiritual intimacy, I think of Eph. 1:17-18, where Paul prays for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation so that we may know God better - as one example of a scriptural call for intimacy... I believe almost every time the OT talks about "knowing" God, it is the same Hebrew word (yada) that He uses for marital intimacy...  will our knowledge/experience be limited?   of course, because God is an infinite God, and so we can only know a very small part of Him, a drop in an ocean, but even that drop that we can know is beyond amazing...  Scripture uses the analogy of husband and wife, between Jesus and the Church (Eph. 5:32 -  and song of songs for almost 2000 years, it's only in the last 100 years or so, that some no longer support this analogy in song of songs - which is an entire discussion)...

   that   thaand that the eyes of our hearts are enlightened, so we can know the hope of our inheritance...  eyes of our hearts refers to a spiritual experience... this is our inner being, also referenced in Eph. 3:16, where the Spirit is working in us...  our faith is Spirit and truth... it takes both working together...  Paul says he does both when he prays in I Cor. 14:14-15...  praying in tongues is a spiritual experience...  the peace that passes understanding is a spiritual experience, becoming new creations in Christ is a spiritual experience (2 Cor 5:17)...  having our hearts of stone become hearts of flesh (Ez 36:26), having His Spirit dwell in us, is a spiritual experience...  I have testimonies of when He has melted my heart, when my heart was getting hard and cold, and aloof and proud, and in less than a moment He melted it, it was not emotionalism, because there wasn't enough time for that, but there were "triggers" that He used...  was there dialogue with God during these times... oh yes...  they were terrible and beautiful experiences at the same time, and I'm so glad He didn't let my heart stay hard... 

King David talks about praising Him with all our "inmost being" ...  so that our youth is renewed like the eagles - that sounds like a spiritual experience...  that "deep rooted assurance" of faith mentioned somewhere earlier (i think it's referred to in  HC Q&A 23), is a spiritual experience - it's that you know that you know in your inner being through a gift of the Spirit, even though there is no tangible "faith" to show other than through our actions... 

those are just a few examples from scripture that I can think of off the top of my head... 

Hebrews 6 talks about the elementary teachings, which includes faith in God (v1), and growing/maturing beyond that... I know this is a difficult passage with various interpretations, and maybe you interpret this differently, if so I would be interested in knowing how you view this...

as for "hiding" our works, interestingly Matt 5 tells us we are a light on a hill, and we are not to cover it up...let your light shine before men SO THAT others may see our good deeds and praise our Father in heaven...  they are for HIS GLORY!!!

One of my favorite passasges is II John 4 where he says in effect - I rejoice to see your children walking in the truth.  One of the things that I am most thankful for is the great cloud of witnesses that I have come to know in my experiences in life.   Since my father was also a minister I have lived in the shadow of the church all my life.   What has frequently amazed me was the instant raport I have experienced when I discovered someone was a fellow believer.   That bond of fellowship is forever.  I have enjoyed many experiences with fellow beleivers.  I have also shared their sorrows and even on one occasion actually wept with a brother.  I have listened to believers talk about their inner pain and frustration.  But most of the believers I have meet have not defined their lives primarily in terms of "spiritual" experiences.  As far as I could tell, they thought about human experiences and living with fellow believers by faith and in obedience to Christ and his word.  All of this is medaited by Christ and his word and Spirit.

I am sure you are aware that there is a long standing tradition that defines spiritual experience in terms of the soul's direct and immediate contact with the essence of God.  When I here people say they have heard God speaking to them or they have a great sense of God's presence I suspect that they are operating out of this tradition.  This tradition greatly minimizes created reality or even negates it.  The soul is good, the body is bad.  To become truly spiritual one must get the soul out of the body.   Can you imagine that salvation is defined in terms of death. 

While the tradition of pietism does not go that far it trends in that direction.  I have met  charismatics who were very uncomfortable with the concept of Jesus in the flesh.  One thing I thought of after I post my previous comments was the sermon on the mount where Jesus warns (Matt 6:1) "Take heed that you do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven."  He then mentions giving alms, praying and fasting.  I take this to mean that we are not to parade our religous and spiritual life before men. 

Having said that, I believe that if Christ has first place in our minds and hearts and we seek to grow in his grace and knowledge that there will be some kind of difference seen in our lives.  But I also beleiver that since our lives are hidden in Christ ( Col 3) that we probably can't see it in ouselves.  Paul says someplace that he does not even judge himself.  When Christ is revealed then we will know what our lives have really been about and what Christ has done with and in them. 

When I entered the ministry in my early twenties there were seniors who told me that the older they became the more they saw their sinfulness.  That certainly has been true for me.  I don't see much in my life to brag about or to set before others as an example.  But along side of that there seem to be a growing conviction that every thing scripture says about Christ is true.  That he is the Living One, that he is risen and both Messiah (Christ) and Lord, that I belong to him and that he is the only hope that I have in life or death.  But that conviction although I believe a result of the Spirit's work thorugh the Gospel, is not the gospel and I do not go around telling people how strong I think my faith is.  For even though it may seem very strong in my heart and mind I have no way of evaluating it.  All I know is that when I read scripture it keeps confirming what I have known all my life. 

John Calvin insists that God in his naked majesty cannot be known.   He can only be known through the person of the mediator.   There is only mediated knowledge of God in Christ.  And that knowledge comes into a real world of people in their everyday lives. 

Since "spiritual experience" can be a vague concept - perhaps it might be helfpul to express your understanding of what that means to you.


An even more vivid assertion...that a believer delighting in God is equivalent to Eve giving in to the devil's temptation, because both of them are "personal experience".

I am fully in agreement with you as to the christocentric focus of Biblical witness...all of the sermons of Acts, I believe, we're squarely focused on the resurrection of Jesus. I also fully agree that experience cannot be the foundation or primary focus of Christian witness. But it does not follow that all experience is therefore illigitemate, or that those who may have had such experiences are suspect. If my brothers and sisters in Christ have had an experience that I may not have had, can I not rejoice with them?

If Jesus is dead there is no salvation and there can be no intimacy.  He earned salvation for us and payed the price in his humanity.  For John Calvin is was always through the flesh of Jesus to God the Father.  Because we are united to him by faith through the Holy Spirit he shares with us all of his blessings.  Look at QA 76 of the Heidelberg.  In John 6 Jesus says we must continually eat his flesh and drink his blood.

The only kind of intimacy with Christ that I know about is to keep on believing in him and trusting him with my life. 

I hear a lot of talk about feeling God's presence, hearing God talking directly to me (private revelation) and having spiritual expieriences.  I have asked people what God "feels like" and no one can tell me.  I have never had any private revelation telling me what car to buy or which call to take.  I don't know what "spiritual experiences" are.  I know what human experiences are with all their emotions and feelings.   I have felt close to people as well as rejected by people.

In the last three decades there has been a  growing emphasis on our human words primarily in terms of prayer and testimonies.  In my opinion these have become more important that God's revealed truth in the scriptures.  What I think, feel and experience becomes more important than Christ himself.

There is indeed such a thing as "spiritual experience", but how does the bible define it.  James says in 1:27 "True and undefiled relgion (read religious experiences) before our God and Father is to visit widows and orphans and keep oneself unspotted from the world."  The life of faith is clearly defined in terms of keeping the commandments which have an internal dimension but also an external one that always involves the neighbor.  Paul says in Romans 12 that we should present our bodies a living sacrifice which is our spiritual service or worship.  There is a great deal of creatureliness in genuine spirituality.   John says if a man says he loves God and hates his nabor he is a liar and the truth is not in him.   Pauls says in Gal 5:14 "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."  Isn't it interesting that he mentions no love for God.  We may well mistake human emotions for spiritual experiences.

Now regarding personal testimonies.   My evaluation about what the Lord is doing in my life is not the word of God nor the means of grace.   My words about my self  is not the power of the gospel. In I Thess 4:18 Paul says "Wherefore comfort (or exhort) one another with these words."   He says something similar in I Thess. 5:11 "Wherefore comfort (exhort) one another, and build each other up, even as also you do."  He is clearly refering, not to believers experiences, or even his own, but to the word of God revealed and written. 

My experiences are all flawed and so is my description of those experiences.  How dare I even begin to compare them with Christ's perfect experiences and the truth of the Living Word written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the risen Christ.   I know of only one biblical way to comfort and encourage and that is with the gospel, the words of grace and mercy revealed in Jesus Christ crucifed and risen.  My personal spiritual stories have no power to change anyone' life.  I don't even have any power to convince anyone of the truth of the gospel as faithful to the scriptures as my words may be.  Only the bodily risen Jesu, who is at the same time the eternal Word is able, by his Holy Spirit using the words of the gospel, the words of truth in the bible, to change hearts and lives and to give comfort and encouragement.   This is the only way an unbeliever can become a believer and the only way a believer can be encouraged and grow in Christ. 

In the garden of Eden there were two possible paths.  The first was to obey the word that God had given - a rather strange word forbidding Adam and Eve to eat of one specific tree.  The second path was the one Eve took first, and then Adam - the path of the personal experience of beling like God.  What does Scripture say?  Eve saw that the tree was good for food and a delight to the eyes and desirable to make one wise - she ate - she experienced.  I John 2:15-17 picks up on these three.  "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world.  If any man love the word, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasing to look at) and the vainglory of life (wise in one's own eyes), is not of the Father, but is of the world.  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever."  

Consider also the visit of Jesus to Emmaus recorded in Luke 24.  The two travelers are down hearted.  (As an aside reflect on what Cleopas says to Jesus " are you the only one in Jerusalem who doesn't  know hwat has happened?"  He was the only who truly knew.  Is there some divine humor here?)  After they explain themselves Jesus scolds them for not believe the the OT scriptures.  Then he opens the bible to them point it to himself.  They don't know who he is until he acts as the host and serves them.  Then their eyes were opened and they knew him and he vanished immediately from sight.  Think of the intimacy and spirituality of that experience.  And what did they say on the way back to Jerusalem .  Wasn't that the most exciting spiritual experience we ever had,  wasn't that wonderful to be that close to Jesus, etc, etc.  Verse 32 records their reaction.  " Was not our heart burning within us while he spake to us on the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? 

It is only throught the words of scripture, the words of the gospel that we have access to Jesus and it is only through him that we have access to the Father.  There is no other way.   The risen Lord Jesus is to have first place in everything ( Colossians 1).

there might be another distinction here... that between testimonies that God gives as encouragement for us personally, along with other believers, and what is evangelism for non-believers...  our testimony is not limited to our conversion, but is added to on a regular basis as we walk in faith..

I believe that the crc has never developed a biblical  reformed approach to evangelism and witnessing.   There are two aspects to this discussion.   What does it mean to "witness" and what is the motivation for doing so.  If I see an auto accident and am called in to court to testify, the court is not interested in my emotional reaction to the experience or even my speculation about the accident.  What the court wants to know is what I saw.  What actually happend, not in me, but outside of me, out on the corner of Fifth and Main.  Or if I am campaigning for someone else running for office, my job is to encourage people to vote for the candidate.  I should not be talking about my qualifications for being a campaigner, but the qualifications of the candidate. 

In John 5:39-40 Jesus makes clear that the scriptures bear witness to him and that the life was in him.  Jesus sent the apostles out to bear witness to himself.   Where in the gospels do the authors talk about their spiritual experiences.   Where in Acts does Luke talk about himself.  They are always concerned to present the facts about who the man Jesus is and what God has done and is doing in and through him.  Three times in Acts Paul gives an account of his conversion but where is the description of his emotional, spiritual reaction.  Those accounts are more about the risen Jesus than Paul.   As Paul says in II Cor 4 - we preach not ourselves - but we preach Jesus as Lord. 

In II Cor. 11 Paul is talking about false preacher/prophets and in vs 18 he shas that many glory after the flesh and that he will be foolish enough to do so also.  So he continues to talk about his qualifications and experiences.   In vs. 21 he says I speak in foolishness and in vs 23 he says I speak besides myself.  He is basically saying I am out of my mind to talk like this. In II Cor 12:10 he talks about taking pleasure in his weaknesses, etc - for when I am weak - then I am strong because Christ's grace is sufficient. 

My understanding of witnessing is to always point to the person and experiences of the risen man Jesus of Nazareth in whom dwells the fulness of the godhead bodily.  In his body he bore our sin and through his blood we are forgiven.  Furthermore, "resurrection" which is at the heart of the apostolic message does not apply to deity but only to the humanity of Jesus.  This is critical for understanding the gospel. 

Now what motivates me to witness.  Is it because I am so in love with God, or so filled with joy, or I have fresh new wonderfful grace experiences every day.  These may all be present.  Certainly all the fruits of the Spirit should be involved in our lives to one degree or the other.  But the primary motive is not experience but faith.  We do not live by sight.  We live by faith.  And while this faith is a gift of the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit, it is my faith and a faith, with all its ups and downs,  that has been encouraged and strengthed throughout my life.  I can remember learning "Jesus Lov es Me" at the age of 3-1/2.  Obviously any faith at that point was very simple.   There never has been time in my life when I did not have some knowledge of Christ.   There is within me a deep seated faith conviction ( which I cannot in any way prove) that the once crucified, but now risen and ever living Jesus of Nazareth is the only Man I can trust, the only man throuigh whom I can access the Father, the only man who can forgive and justify, the only one who has solved the problem of death and our living hope promising that someday we will be freed from death.   We groan waiting for our adoption the redemption of our bodies and when we see him our bodies will be made like his body.  Creation too waits for our adoption when it will be freed from the curse of sin.  I have learned all this from the Bible.

When I thought witnessing was telling others about my wonderful grace experiences - I could not witness.  But when I learned from scripture that witnessing was telling others about what God has done in Christ and who he is today as the risen Lord and the benefits and blessings to be found in him -  witnessing became easy and I almost dare say a joy.  Why is this present in my life?  There is only one reason.  Because, in the midst of all my failures and weakness, yes even sins,  the risen Lord Jesus empowers and enables by his Holy Spirit, through the gospel.  The great motivation comes not from us, but from him.  I think that the church, as it becomes increasingly enamoured with "spiritual experience" s forgetting about the risen Jesus who always works in us. 

There is only one way that I talk about myself when I witness.  I point out that sin is self-exaltation and that when I learned that Christ was my righteousness, my self worth, my self esteem - then I learned that I no longer had to be important.   I could be more free to esteem others better than myself.  But that has nothing to do with any kind of spiritual superiority on my part but only with the excellency and worth of the Risen Jesus.  He is the living one.  He was dead once but is now alive forever. 

The danger for the church is that it always wants to return to the flesh and become obsessed with its own experiences.  The apostles had one passion - and that was to proclaim the name of Jesus and tell the world that this risen man was Messiah and Lord, that he was in charge of the world and the church and that he was returning someday to destroy, not creation nor our bodies, but all sin and evil making all things new.

Witnessing is point to Christ.

Motivation for witness comes from the Holy Spirit and the faith conviction that Jesus is Lord and the only way to the Father.

And with the eagerness of the NT believers, we pray "Lord, Jesus, come quickly."

Henry, you mention that we ignore the bodily resurrection of the Man Jesus - I would submit that we have missed spiritual intimacy with Him, which that concept seems to make us very uncomfortable, but my perception on that could be wrong.  I would also submit we have to some degree  ignored and quenched the power of the Holy Spirit, and been in contempt of some of His gifts, particularly those gifts we can't explain...

I struggle with when someone thinks someone else has spiritual "superiority", maybe they are sensing pride in some - but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater on this.   I would suggest these "dymanic experiences" are the prompting and work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and not something to be disdained... everything we are, including our spiritual experiences are a gift of God, through His Holy Spirit, we can do nothing without Jesus...  the concept of spiritual superiority shuts down every testimony of what God is doing in our lives, here and now... Yes, none of this has any meaning without salvation and we can not do it on our own, but as a loving and generous Father, He gives us fresh encounters with His goodness and love daily, and I hope we would want to share those testimonies, but when those hearing the  testimonies receive them with skepticism or criticism or contempt, instead of joy and thankfulness, then we are quenching the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives... if we don't share those testimonies, we are quenching Him as well... It is all for His glory, and our good...  I would hope the response to testimonies of what God is doing in our lives, would be met with joy and excitement, and be encouraging to others... instead of threatening.

I also think we need to recognize that there are different levels of maturity of believers, in our faith..

If we are not "experiencing" the Holy Spirit, then we need to look at our attitude toward the Holy Spirit.. are we quenching Him, through contempt of His gifts, through skepticism/criticisim, through unbelief that He still speaks to us in various ways (which includes making scripture living and active)?

having grown up in the crc, and still a part of it, I have noticed a significant resistance to how the Holy Spirit works via some giftings, for a variety of reasons, which is an entire discussion in itself...

unfortunately the new age stuff is the enemy's counterfeit of the working of the Holy Spirit, and so there will be things that look the same, but are oh so very different because of where it is coming from (Holy Spirit vs enemy spirit), with good fruit from the Holy Spirit and bad fruit from the enemy...   this is where testing of the spirits (I John 4:1/1 Thess. 5:19-22), and discernment comes in...

When we love God with all our hearts, souls, strength and mind... that will overflow to loving our neighbors...  and we will desire to be with Him via the Word, worship and prayer, to share about Him, to trust Him, and to obey Him...  He will consume us, and we will be obsessed with Him and serving His Kingdom


While I think that your characterization of a beliver delighting in God's grace as a Phariasee in front of the temple is a bit off, I too feel more affinity with the publican asking for mercy.  But as we look at that parable, it continues and says that it was the publican who went home justified.  It does not say that he went home rejoicing, but one can imagine, if he knew that his sins had been covered, that rejoicing would not be an out-of-line response to this action of God.  Indeed, the HC says that part of the "coming to life of the new self", along with a cognitive belief in the truths of the gospel is, a "wholehearted *joy* in Christ" and a *delight* to do his will.  Things which one would assume are felt affectively as well as known cognitively.

What at first seems to be the distinction between yourself and the original poster of this thread is that he would say that this joy and delight is essential to the process.  You at first seem to be saying that it is, rather, incidental to the process.  But as I read what you are saying, it almost seems like you are saying that it is not even allowed.

Please clarify.

This is the second article in a month (See Greg Selmon's "Today's Compelling Story of Grace" 10-18-12) that suggest the motivation for witness is found in the spiritual superiority of the individual believer.   Critical to witness is the believer's dynamic experiences of grace, fresh each day, and their personal passion for God.  What I hear being said is that we must be like the pharisee in the front of the temple who thanks God that he is not like other men, that he has all these fantastic spiritual experiences, that he is not like the sinner in the back of the room.  We must have something to show and tell about ourselves (called sharing Christ), when actually it is simply talking about and possibly even boasting about ourselves. 

Probably the most fantastic spiritual experience in this life would be to be raised from the dead.  The rich man in Hades pleads with father Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers arguing that the bible (Moses and the Prophets) is not sufficient - they need to see something.   The answer comes back that is they do not believe the bible neither will they believe if someone rises from the dead.

Genuine spiritual growth results in a growing realization that all the benefits and blessings of salvation are not found in self but in the person of the bodily risen Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God, so say the apostles.  Now pershaps I am spiritually regressing but the older I have become the more if feel like the "sinner" in the back of the temple and the man who buried his one talent.   So according to your thesis I would have no impetus for witnessing.  While love for God is the highest commandment it is not the most important thing in this life.  We are not saved by our love but by our faith, which is a gift of God.  By that gift we become increasingly convinced of the historical facts and present reality of the bodily risen Jesus.  I am not interested in telling others about my fantastical "grace experiences" because I have none to tell about.   But there seems to be a great desire and passion to talk about the person of Christ and his experiences, that he is risen and he is Messiah and Lord.   That is the essence of the biblcal witness and the heart of the gospel. 

Scripture is very clear that we are not to boast about ourselves, but only about Christ himself.   That can be done only by using the truth and facts of the scriptures as they point to Christ. He himself makes this point in Luke 24 both on the way to Emmaus and to his disciples. Paul says in II Cor. 4 that we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord.

In Acts 23-26 Paul summarizes this his entire gospel in terms of the hope of Israel - the resurrection of the body.  In acts 2-4 the heart of the apostolic witness becomes plain.  Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God.   You killied him.  God raised him from the dead and made him MNessiah and Lord and in him is the forgiveness of sins.   See also Acts 13.  In Acts 17 Paul asserts that God has appointed a man by which he will judge the world and has demonstrated this by raising Jesus from the dead. 

I would suggest that the lack of motivation comes from the fact that the church has almost comletely ignored the fact and significance of the bodily resurrection of the Man Jesus ( yes I affirm his full deity).   All my life I have heard that my "gratitude" is the driving force for living a life of faith - while scripture (even the Heidelberg Catechism) locates the motivation factor in the renewing work of the Risen Jesus by his Holy Spirit after his image.  Paul says - I count all my religious accomplishments as garbage for the sake of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ.  I want to know Christ, the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering.  We hardly ever hear about the return of Christ and when it is mentioned we are told that we are going to spend eternity in heaven even though scripture, both Old and New, makes clear we will spend eternity in a renewed created order with our complete persons - spirit, soul and body make new, whole and imperishable.  I don't know many beleivers who are enthused about our glorious future.

Christ is viewed primarily as "a spirit being" and as "God".  It seems that his glorified humanity, the very same humanity in which he was sin's curse on the cross, has evaproated into the divine all.   Very Platonic and new age.  The fact of the  matter is that  there is a man on God's throne.  By man came death - by man came the resurreciton of the dead.   If the dead cannot be raised, then Jesus is still dead and we are fools to trust a dead man.  The apostles were not passionate about thier own spiritual expereinces - they were passionate about the reality of the bodily risen Lord and the fullness of present blessings found in him as well as the tremendous, sure and living hope that he is. 

I would also suggest that Piper has things backwords.  He is essentially saying that we are nothing but mirrors reflecting God's love back to himself.    I don't matter, you don't matter - all that matters is God.  Again this strikes me as very new age like.  While we may not lose our indiduality all that matters is the flow of love to God as though he were a giant vacuum cleaner or black hole sucking all the energy out of the very things he has made.  He needs nothing from us for he is full and complete in himself.  God so loved the world that he gave.  Ephesians 2:7 states the purpose of saving us - so that God forever and ever can show us the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.  He wil continually unfold and reveal himself to us forever in a renewed created order without sin.  What a great message to tell - not about my experiences - but about who he is.