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My personal opinion is that, If possible, musicians should try to choose music that is connected to the pastor's message or the concerns of the congregation.  I realize that, especially for praise teams, practices often happen before the sermon outline has been provided (or determined) by the pastor.  But, at the very least, I think music leaders should, before choosing their music, consider whether or not there is a part of the liturgical calendar that should/could be connected to OR an event in the congregation (or society) that could be addressed.

As an attendee at various churches in various denominations (part of my former employment), I'd often hear a song that was "new" to me. Sometimes, I'd be wondering "What were they thinking?"  And, if I was thinking of suggesting it as a song choice for our own congregation, I'd first read through the lyrics as if it were a spoken message to determine if it was spiritually moving.  Often, I'll come across new songs that have a great tune but the tune appears to be wasted by incorporating extremely redundant and boring lyrics.  It's like reading the lyrics of "Happy Birthday".

Of course, that's an opinion that varies from one listener to another and, if a worship team is involved, members' opinions should be sought.  I've learned lots from the opinions and enthusiasm of others.

Interesting that Jeremy Zeyl is coming up here as we as a church have decided to introduce his song "I Am Not My Own" over the month of July as we have recently finished an adult study of the Heidelberg Catechism. It's great to see the efforts he has made to write quality worship music with a reformed theology. 

I have an extension question to your comment on the music being picked up/used in worshipping communities beyond their own - do you have any recommendations as to how an artist might go about achieving that? Outside of your wheelhouse maybe, but I'm curious what you have to say, if anything.



Yes, great reminder James to go beyond the top CCLI songs.  There are so many other avenues for good Reformed, contemporary songs, newly written like Jeremy Zeyl or new arrangements of traditional hymns.  Some additional people to consider are: 

  • Sarah and Phil Majorins from a CRC church plant in Davis, California (Church of Christ, Davis);
  • Bruce Benedict (Hope College Chapel, Holland, Michigan);
  • Aaron Antoon (CRC church planter also in California);
  • Greg Scheer (Church of the Servant, Grand Rapids).  

Also consider looking up music from:

  • Sovereign Grace (Kevin Twit),
  • Urban Doxology (David Bailey)

For more modern arrangements of traditional hymns search those hymns on sites like: 


I'm doing this off the top of my head so I am sure we can add people/websites to each one of these categories.  Please do add your additions.  A suggested key requirement for adding names: the music the individual is writing must have been picked up/used in worshiping communities beyond their own. 

Also note that in the Advent edition of Reformed Worship there is an article on "Reawaken Hymns" by Nathan Drake who explains some basics to taking traditional hymns and playing them in a modern/contemporary style.  The article will include a link to a teaching video as well.  

Excited to see this beginning list grow! 


Great question and excellent response, Joyce. It would be great if this question and answer could make their way into The Banner as it's relevant regardless of the style of worship applied.

At my church, neither elders or our pastor get very involved in selections of songs used in Sunday worship. Instead we have 4 worship leaders who choose the songs. Once in a while, some feedback will come to us either from the pastor or from congregants about the appropriateness of certain songs or lyrics within songs, and sometimes we'll change the words slightly to address the issue.

In general, though, I think we follow most of the principals you've outlined, each applying our own lens. But it's nice to have these lists and I'm going to share them with my fellow leaders. Sometimes the songs we choose are relevant for a "season" within our church; other times they have longer legs.

I would also challenge churches to reach a little further and work a little harder, creating and incorporating our own original music into worship and keeping our ears open for good new music that hasn't reached the CCLI charts. Jeremy Zeyl (, for example is a Reformed contemporary musician from within our own circles (Talbot Street CRC in London, ON) who is creating some rich and original songs that fit all of the criteria above.

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the response! I'm wondering though if you can expand on your first point at all - do you have "criteria" for determining this?

Excellent response by Joyce!  As a church musician for over 40 years, I've enjoyed the changes and have been rewarded by the education given to me by the younger musicians involved in our worship. Still, I do rely on 2 major guidelines (contained within Joyce's response).

1 - Does the text of the song fit within and amplify the message of the service?

2 - Does the music inspire congregational participation in the singing?

And, I'll always remember a lesson given to me over 40 years ago by my teacher.  During congregational singing, church musicians are there to accompany in worship, not to perform.  Yes, occasionally we must assist in teaching a new song and that may require more volume but I often find the community of singing can be destroyed by overwhelming musical accompaniment.  Of course, I'll still pull all the stops for at least one verse of "A Mighty Fortress" but I'm also prone to stop playing altogether for a verse and hear beautiful a capella singing and, as a musician at the front of the church, I often have the best seat in the house.

Thanks for the fast reply Joyce. I appreciate your expanding on the process for the hymnal and your outlining of some of the criteria you use for evaluating music.

Hi Adom, 

Great question(s) and worthy of some discussion.  Since you mention me by name I will try and answer some of them from where I sit but I hope others will engage as well. There is a lot of wisdom out there. 

First, the question about what is or is not allowed to be sung in our worship.  There is no longer any requirement that churches solely use music from one of our published hymnals so in essence you are free to take music from whatever resource/website you have access too.  But, in our polity (church rules of governance) the elders are charged with the task of overseeing worship which includes making sure that the music that is sung is appropriate for worship in a Christian Reformed Church. 

That of course begs an answer to your second question or a rephrase of it, "what qualifies a song as appropriate".  Let me begin by saying just because the editorial committee of Lift Up Your Hearts chose not to include a song doesn't mean that we deemed it inappropriate for use in the CRC.  The fact is that we looked at at least 3,000 songs as a committee and by using up every bit of real estate in the hymnal we managed to include about 850.  So there are a lot of songs we didn't include.  We began with an outline for the hymnal with a rough estimate of how many songs we felt we needed in each section, we were also committed to including songs from a diverse number of genres in each section (roughly global, contemporary, traditional hymnody).  For Christmas for example, we aimed for between 20-25 songs which when you put in the songs that are "required" left little room for anything else.  Many good Christmas songs were left out due to space alone.  Other times we had two songs of the same stylistic genre that said pretty much the same thing so one had to go.  

But there were many additional songs that we let go due to theological or musical concerns.  However, here is another reality when it comes to hymnal publishing.  We were needing to think very broadly about the church which in this case encompassed two denominations spread across two nations.  So it could very well be that a song that we deemed not appropriate for the hymnal might pass scrutiny in a more specific context.  In my own church we have sung a number of songs, even the Sundays I've preached, that did not pass the hymnal committee because of textual concerns.  In our context the problematic reading of the text would never be raised, but given another context that same text would be offensive.  That's where the wisdom of the leadership is important.  It could also be that even though few people will raise their eyebrows at a text it still isn't appropriate for our worship because every song we sing forms us.  

Choosing congregational songs then is a bit about the context but not entirely.  If we take the formative power of worship seriously (and we should) then what people sing will form their understanding of God, God's relationship to us, and our relationship to each other.  As pastors, elders, and others who are tasked with worship's oversight we need to take that priestly and prophetic role very seriously.   Here are some guidelines I have found helpful (though there are exceptions to every rule):


Music Guidelines

  • Singable by congregations rather than a soloist
  • Preferred range: c-d1
  • Rhythmically accessible to congregants
  • Fits the text and supports its message
  • Well-crafted memorable melody
  • Interesting with some predictability but not trite
  • Playable by non-professional but trained musicians
  • Follows the principles of standard music theory, unless compositional style demands otherwise

Text Guidelines

  • Biblical
  • Theologically Reformed
  • Gender-neutral language for people
  • Poetic texts ought to reflect good poetic techniques
  • Grammatically correct (with some poetic license)
  • Artfully written, not trite or mundane
  • Cohesive in thought
  • Understandable message (not puzzling to the singer or needing too much unpacking)
  • Captures the imagination or results in further reflection
  • Communal (we/you not I/me...exception for African American, Psalmody, and other music where I=We)
  • Words fit naturally with selected tune

One of your final comments was whether or not Reformed Worship could highlight a few songs.  We have always highlighted congregational song through our Songs for the Season, then Noteworthy, and soon Sing 10! columns, but we haven't solely focused on newly composed or specifically songs from the contemporary/modern genre but rather sought to highlight songs from diverse genres. The problem I fear with a quarterly journal is that currently we are planning the Lent/Easter issue.  If we provide a list of songs now with critique by Lent/Easter they will already be in use in our churches. Worship folk aren't going to and shouldn't have to wait for the next issue of RW to decide whether or not to use a song. 

As for other means of evaluating new songs for their content I think the Network could be a great place to do that.  I encourage all worship leaders to share their newest finds and offer some reflection on why they commend them to other churches.  And who knows maybe someday we will come up with a system for evaluating new songs on a more regular basis.  Until then do share with each other the best that is out there, and when necessary offer cautionary remarks.  

Hope this helps...happy to engage more. 


Beautiful Things by Gungor.  Great message obviously, but also it uses the pronoun "us" in the choruses.  This nicely counters the rabid individualism of our consumer culture.  

My husband's favorite as well!

posted in: A Cure for Busy

This is one of my favorites too, Laura! 

I've recently been enjoyed the song by Jonny Diaz entitled "Just Breathe". (You can find the video by clicking here). At first I wanted to turn it off because the beat was soooo busy and I just didn't want to hear that in my busy world. But, then, as I listened further, I was blessed by the words that tell us to "just breathe .. come and rest at My feet ... and be .. just be". All we really need is to "just breathe".


This resonates with Syd's reflections. The "peace of God" overcomes. Lay down what is good and find what is best.

posted in: A Cure for Busy

I love how God inspires us with encouraging words and melodies throughout our day.  So many songs come to mind, but for this day in God's perfect timing "Moving Forward" by Integrity's Hosanna! Music is my song.


I'm not going back 
I'm moving ahead 
Here to declare to You my past is over in You

all things are made new 
Surrendered my life to Christ 
I'm moving, moving forward 

 "How Deep the Father's Love for Us"  by Stewart Townend touches my soul. 

For my wife and I a song that stirs our soul is by MercyMe, called "I can only Imagine"

Lately I've really been inspired and challenged by the Rend Collective song Joy of the Lord. 

This song encourages me to lean on the JOY and HOPE of the Lord, no matter the circumstances. My favorite part of the song are the lines: "The joy of the Lord is my strength, In the darkness I’ll dance, In the shadows I’ll sing, The joy of the Lord is my strength." 

Rory Nolan taught a song at a Willow Creek Conference quite a few years ago when I was a young worship leader, and I have started almost every day since then with these words. I call it my 'shower song'.

He is Able (title)

He is able, more than able, to accomplish what concerns me today
He is able, more than able, to handle anything that comes my way
He is able, more than able, to do much more than I could ever dream
He is able, more than able, to make me what He wants me to be.

My Dad's favorite song, which he sang to us while tucking us in bed, "When we Walk With the Lord" ("Trust and Obey")

So appreciate you sharing this video and showing us the beauty of generations coming together.  What a great idea! 

Good thoughts all! This is a frequent issue in worship, partly because we think of the individual too much as doing something for the community, and the community as a receptor which wants or deserves better. If we think more of worship as all of us in community ("one body") doing something together for God, every member having gifts to add to the whole, never telling someone they are not gifted for this or that, but helping them find where their gift fits best, thus moving the whole body toward greater degrees of excellence; the dilemma of community vs excellence disappears. Excellence means getting all the instruments in the right place and performing together in the best possible way for the ultimate concert of praise.


 I agree with that statement.  When I'm unable to attend the service at "my" church I watch a service of The People's Church in Toronto, and while I enjoy the preaching, the singing irritates me no end.  The people who sing do so many descants on familiar songs that you'd think they were singing in a concert hall.  It really is a performance, and you wonder who's the audience.  Very often I either cut the sound or turn the TV off altogether.

John, thanks for these thoughts. I've asked these same questions myself. Bill Vanden Bosch, a retired CRC pastor who did well at engaging people of various cultures and people with disabilities in the life of the congregation, once told me, "The best worship comes from the heart, reaches the heart of God, and the hearts of all the worshipers touch each other." I love the communal focus of that statement. Excellence in worship is not about achieving certain technical standards, it's about people connecting with God and with each other through the power of the Holy Spirit. Given that as a standard, a stammering reader or a clumsy dancer may lead the congregation in worship better than well-trained actors or dancers. 

 I tried singing in the choir in my church a few times, and it never worked out.  But it wasn't my voice that was the problem.  I was throwing everybody else off key.  So I had to give that up as a way to serve God and find out where my real gifts lay.  It took awhile but now I'm in my right niche. Sometimes you're not doing people or the church a favour by letting them continue in a line they're not gifted for, while other areas are being neglected.  These days I translate sermon power points into French and bake desserts for Community Supper, a ministry of our congregation.  And I have been appointed as Regional Advocate for Classis Eastern Canada.  These would not have happened if I'd insisted on singing in the choir, and no one had told me it wasn't my place.

We meet weekly with each other and we have a few members who join us.  Sometimes we ask a group to participate because it is lent, advent, or a specific series.  I never get the picture of the pastor's message because he doesn't write his sermon until later in the week.  All I can go by is the sermon text, season, series theme, etc.  90% of the time I can draw some elements (songs, readings, etc) that support the sermon.  Sometimes I receive the information and let the sermon stand on its own.  Not necessarily ignoring the sermon information, but sometimes, I don't have the exact resources to make a supportive theme.  That's not all bad either.

Don't give up, it's the right thing.  Sometimes i find it helpful to read a brief concordance on the text to get a general overview of the text (a study Bible works most of the time).  Then drawing from your reading, you can at least derive some theme.  Also try using the lectionary ( and search for the text and then see the corresponding passages (psalm, OT, Epistle, NT, etc.) and sometimes I can draw from that also.

I also agree with using something like planning center, etc to start the process and keep your worship participants informed.  I'm just starting this myself.

There was a book at one time published by Faith Alive, "Authentic Worship in a Changing Culture".  The short story is that excellence in worship is achieved based on ability and skills.  Don't' ask a 3 year old to sing an aria from Handel's Messiah.  at the same time, don't insult an advanced musicians to play just the melody line of a song.  Don't ask the 3rd grade Sunday School class to create a banner in the style of Van Gogh, at the same time, don't stifle an inspiring visual artist to a felt board.  I realize these may be extremes, but hoping you get the picture.  If you ask the beginning piano student to play a simple melody during the worship service that the person is able to achieve then you have done both excellence and community.  If you ask your more advanced musicians to play a more advanced or original piece, then you have created excellence based on ability, and you have created appreciation for that person, thus fostering community.

Having said this, I do feel that commitment among members is also a factor, sometimes they aren't as dedicated to the life of the church and don't always feel the commitment to prepare for worship for various reasons.  As a worship director, I also find this difficult to see people who I know have the talent and are consistently not playing to their abilities.  So a lower expectation of excellence is required on your part to make them still feel "community" and to achieve "excellence" that you are looking for.


 Although we are currently without a full-time pastor, before our last one left in October of last year (2015) he was part of the worship committee, so we did work with him to choose hymns that supported the topics and message of his sermons, and we hope to be able to do this with the next pastor also. In the meantime, since we're getting classical appointments, we strive to contact the minister who will preach when one of us will be responsible for preparing the order of worship ahead of time to give them time to think about their sermon, and to find out what they intend to preach about so we have an idea of what songs to choose.  Very seldom does lighting come into the picture in our church, but when our former pastor was with us Good Friday services were almost always Tenebrae rituals.  That was THE exception to the rule.  Otherwise, I don't recall any service where the lighting had anything to do with the order of service.  Other than to light candles, maybe.  and that usually takes place mostly around Advent and Christmas.

We did most of the work by email.  Still do.  Most of the members work full-time, and some live quite a distance away from Montreal, sometimes even past the Ontario border, so meeting on a weekly basis simply is not practical for us.

I think part of the answer is expecting from all who would participate in the service a (speaking, singing, playing whatever) recognition that their participation isn't only about giving them a chance to do their thing in front of the congregation.  If everyone that the point of serving is serving, the problem really disappears.

Not all will have that maturity of course.  Which means another one of your jobs is to teach that, both as a preliminary to anyone who wants to participate (serve) and in an ongoing way.  Another job may be to find opportunities for all to serve, even if they ultimately can't serve in the way they first wanted.  

"C" grade music is OK, tolerable. A solid "F" soloist? 

Thanks, Graham! You are exactly right that it can be a logistical challenge to meet weekly for planning purposes. Glad that you are still able to have open channels of communication. Also, love the idea of musicians/pastors collaborating on a song led by the Holy Spirit - how powerful that would be!

Thanks for sharing this Adom! 

It depends to some degree on the pastor, but a level of collaboration is, of course, essential. Our present pastor posts a brief statement on Planning Center Online, giving his Scripture, general themes, and punchline. This is the minimum that would work. Ideally we'd meet with him on a weekly basis (a couple of weeks prior to the service) but that seems difficult logistically for us. We do use email for clarification, sharing of ideas, etc when needed. Depending on the theme, we will sometimes theme an entire service around the sermon, and at other times, will start with a more general worship theme (often on a particular attribute of God) and then lead toward the sermon theme. We do this for two reasons. Firstly, some themes don't lend themselves to songs and liturgy that will lead us all into the presence of God, and secondly some themes have very few associated songs that are familiar to us or easily learned. 

If your pastor is worship-focused, and wants to have more involvement, the opportunities for creative collaboration are endless. One great idea (from a Stuart Towned song-writing seminar) is for a musician and pastor to co-write a song that speaks precisely to where the Holy Spirit is leading the service. In general, if it works for worship leader/planner and pastor to meet together, I would jump at the opportunity.

I love this article! Thanks for the thoughtful and nuanced questions. There is so much we want to control, or make better, but God has always worked through imperfect people to accomplish incredible things! 

One of the things that usually ends up frustrating me (and I'm not sure if I'm right to let it frustrate me) is when I know the music for a service could be done better with maybe half an hour more practice, but individuals say that they don't want practice to go more than an hour. I view that as stopping short of the effort required, but that could be a result of my personality. Also, I recognize that if you were to take that to the extreme you could end up practicing for hours at a time and you need to draw the line somewhere. I guess I'm frustrated when I don't think people's hearts are in it, but then again, how can I know for sure where they are? I'm not expecting perfection, I am expecting people to have left something of themselves on the altar, but am I allowed to expect that or am I out of place?

Thank you, John for posting this.  I really appreciate your thoughtfulness in this article. 

Hi Terry and Michele: 

It looks like this litany/prayer was provided by Church of the Crossroads (with permission to use). I've added in this information. 

Thanks for asking!

Yes, please use it, Michele!

BTW, even though the Network attributes the litany to me, I am not the author. I inherited it in my RCA Disability Concerns role.

 Do you mind if I use this in Sunday's order of worship?

This is a beautiful reminder of how we can minister to others. Thank you for this post!

What if it's not an either or proposition? What if we can work on making our liturgy flow more by making transitions more seamless (unless we want intentional silence)? What if we "boldly" decided to have the music continue in the background when we hear God's word? What if we made sure that when someone is reading they came up at the ending of the song instead of when it was over? No comment on right or wrong, but ideas.


Thank you for your review of my post, I appreciate it even though we may have misunderstood each other.

For starters I do not think you mean what you say in the first line of paragraph two of your review.  You do not mean to say that you disagree that I am dumbing down what I think you meant to say is that you disagree because you think I am dumbing down.  Correct?.  I sometimes think faster than I can write as well and do not say it quite as I intended to.  Not a problem.  I do not think there is any need to dumb down our worship or in order to make it more accessible to untrained musical and theological members would involve dumbing down.

Actually, I am reflecting some feedback I have received from mature believers in the CRC.  They are family members, college students who have worshipped during college at evangelical community churches and other non-muscians and non theologians. They think this form of muti-message worship is confusing and not edifying because it is dis-jointed. The college students I refer to have gone from their home CRC and experienced evangelical more seamless worship while at college.  When they come back they do not  appreciate Reformed Worship as we practice it. So they find a church home now which is more like what they had in college.  Perhaps I'm the only CRC pastor with such experiences.  I hope if there other pastors like me out there that they will speak up.   If I'm alone or only a few agree with what I say I will be quiet and direct my time and energy elsewhere.  

I keep hearing words like yours from our worship leaders but I also keep reading about how we are losing our young adults.  

Thanks again for your feedback Ken.  I would like to meet you sometime and discuss these thoughts further with you.

Until then,



I read this post and gave a lot of thought.  I am coming from the "well-established" congregation experience.  You have some valid points about what to include, not include, etc, in the perspective of Reformed Worship and new church plants, small congregations, etc. We don't always do that either.  Some seasons of the church year or if a sermon series calls for an emphasis of something, then we might lessen some of the other elements to give focus to the theme or focus.  

But I would have to disagree with you that you are dumbing down to those who you are trying to reach.  No, they aren't going to get it all and it all shouldn't be thrown at them at once, but if you start somewhere "one-inch" at a time, I truly believe they will receive it well and it will become the fabric of the worship experience.  How you present it is the "Robert Schuller" grade you will get from the congregation.  Robert Schuller did some unorthodox things to gain TV ratings, not to instill good liturgy.

I was at a seminar with a Christian college Chaplain and he described his new position and the worship life of the student body.  He described the Sunday chapel service as a "Holy Ruckus" when he first arrived.  SLOWLY, the dean of the chapel developed a well meaning liturgy one semester at a time.  This is a few years ago so I'm sure some great progress has been made and it all started with lighting the Christ candle and acknowledging God has called them to worship and God's presence in worship.

The people we are "reaching out" to are intelligent, the only ignorance is not knowing.  Telling them and showing them why it is important and why God has called us to confess our sins in a time of confession, etc. is just as important and making them aware of the Psalm 150 incorporation that all called to "Praise the Lord".  We aren't very good at telling what is important to us as reformed Christians as far as heritage, worship, traditions, etc. because we are afraid to offend them.  Other well established religions are not afraid to tell and show - and they are growing! 

Yes, we cannot assume that they automatically walk into worship knowing those things, but neither does a 3 year old child.  But as they mature in their faith, so doesn't their worship and their approach in worship, but only if you tell them and show them.

As for a unified thematic approach to worship, I don't always have one, sometimes it is better.  Themes and "take home" messages don't always present themselves up front.  But I always trust that the Holy Spirit will guide the worship and that we will give God the glory and be edified by his Word.

I'm sorry for this post if it sits with you in a different way, but I would have to disagree with your post. I could say more, but I'll end it here, reach out to where they are - meet them - and walk with them in a way that they should go.

What is the question about Robert Schuller?

Robert Schuller?

I would consider being a part of such a group!

Praise Jesus!  I love that He has us on similar journeys even though they were not overlapped.

We did a once a month healing prayer time for anyone that would like to come at Discovery CRC Church (in Cutlerville) for a couple of years while we were all learning.  I am thinking of starting something like that up again.  So I guess I will just throw it out there.  I would be open to anyone to come, those who have been through the Embers to Flames prayer training, those who want to come and receive prayer, those who want to come and learn, those who want to come to be together with the body of Christ in the Presence of Jesus....

Anyone interested?

That sounds like a good response Mary. Thanks. I like the image of after church prayer being more like triage, but also recognizing that God is not limited, and he can do significant work in a very short time frame. 

One image that sticks in my mind from my prayer ministry days is that of the paralyzed man who was brought to Jesus by his friends who had to break through the roof to get to him. Sometimes there is work to do to get people to Jesus - but that is always the posture in prayer ministry, bringing folks into the presence of Jesus and letting Jesus do what he will. Often it's not what we would expect or can even imagine. The passage says that Jesus saw the faith of the man's friends, and healed him. Sometimes we need to have faith for one another. It's a great image for me of healing prayer.

As a prayer ministry group we also met regularly to practice praying with and for one another. We also went through a Theophostic video training course (Ed Smith) and we read a book by Leanne Payne together. Regular time as a community, practicing with one another and learning together was wonderful for all of us and built a lot of trust in the group as well. (It was an ecumenical group, so we didn't all go to the same church). We didn't stick to one process or procedure, but felt our learning together gave us several "tools" that we could use, under the direction of the Holy Spirit. The main thing is bringing someone into the presence of Jesus so that Jesus can do his healing work, whatever that may be. Learning to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and Listen to the voice of Jesus is important.


Just very quickly in a nutshell, after church prayer team prayers are going to be fairly quick, but that does not mean necessarily "light".  I have seen persons healed in this time frame and I believe that God is delighted when persons come to church and walk out healed and transformed.  That is church!  That is the gospel!  That is the Kingdom at work!  I pray that would happen every week at every church.

A deeper healing prayer appointment, that would be set up for a couple of hours or more, digs way down to spiritual roots that may be causing the trouble or dysfunction. Sometimes things are systematically confessed, forgiven, delivered.  Some times deep inner wounds from childhood are healed in these sessions.  Your after church prayer ministry time is kind of like Triage, and some of those persons ought be referred to someone for more intensified healing prayer by those who are trained in such.


yes of course Katy, and others, that is why I typed it all out.  Use it!