Comment Stream

Angelyn Kuiper June 26, 2017

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and heart in this post, Danielle!

Doug Vande Griend June 26, 2017

My concern about the articles published on Do Justice, aside from the content of some of those articles, is that at Synod, they and the Do Justice site, were/was repeatedly described as a conversation while in fact OSJ has quite deliberately decided to not allow commenting.  That's simply not a conversation.  Indeed, I wonder how many Synodical delegates just assumed commenting was allowed on Do Justice, that is, that it really is a conversation facility.

I do realize that some Do Justice articles are posted here, on the Network, where they can actually be part of a conversation.  But those instances are very few, and if I'm not mistaken, none of the Do Justice articles that were included in the Minntonka overture were reposted in th Network.  And even if they were, the audience of the conversation would necessarily be a different one.

Which is why I think Do Justice articles should be open to online commenters.  Just like Banner articles are.

Carol Sybenga June 22, 2017

Hi Amy - for now it's just for Canadian churches, We're still in the test phase, working in one specific classis, but looking forward to a Canada wide launch in the fall. But yes, we're also looking at incorporating US churches and hoping to test it with a few churches in the next little while and see what kind of issues they may encounter.

Jeanne Kallemeyn June 22, 2017

Glad I'm going - now I'm even more excited!

Jeanne Kallemeyn - CRCNA Pastor Church Resources

Amy Vander Vliet June 21, 2017

So this is a Canada-only app? Are there plans for a U.S. version?

Jonathan Fischer June 21, 2017

Thank you for the advice. How does this look, as a potential charge regarding confidentiality (wanting the congregation to be informed of the circumstances that would require confidentiality to be broken):

Elders and deacons, I charge you to keep in confidence the sensitive matters which congregants may share with you, only sharing with other leaders when needed to better care for those involved, and only reporting in circumstances involving evidence of a minor being neglected or abused, or of someone posing an immediate threat to themselves or to someone else.

June 21, 2017

Thank you! This was very helpful!

Staci Devries June 21, 2017

Or are you more looking for how to monitor use of the site, features, etc.?

posted in : Website Policy
Tim Postuma June 21, 2017

I would urge some caution, Michelle, in light of some of the CRC's prior statements which may or may not line up with the links you provided.

To my knowledge, the CRC hasn't developed a 'position statement' on gender identity issues. But it has on the issue of homosexuality and even 45 years ago the 1973 report it approved said:

"It is important to understand that homosexuality is not the result of any conscious choice or decision on the part of the person to be homosexual."

And the CRC position statement goes on to say:

"Persons of same-sex attraction should not be denied community acceptance solely because of their sexual orientation and should be wholeheartedly received by the church and given loving support and encouragement. Christian homosexuals, like all Christians, are called to discipleship, holy obedience, and the use of their gifts in the cause of the kingdom. Opportunities to serve within the offices and the life of the congregation should be afforded to them as to heterosexual Christians."

If synod came to that conclusion about homosexuality 45 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if it comes to the same conclusion about gender identity when that is studied.

We may soon find out, because Synod 2016 has appointed a study committee to "articulate a foundation-laying biblical theology of human sexuality that pays particular attention to biblical conceptions of gender and sexuality." So we can look forward to further clarity from that report. 

But it's noteable that synod, in the makeup of the study committee, said it wanted the committee to include a gender dysphoric person. And all committee members are to adhere to the CRC's biblical view of marriage. So, even in forming the committee, it seems that synod doesn't view those two things as incompatible. See: https://thebanner.org/news/2016/06/synod-2016-appoints-a-committee-to-st...

I hope these CRCNA references are helpful.

Reg Cole June 20, 2017

Why isn't Saudi Arabia and Iran taking muslim refugees from Syria? Why aren't we bringing Christian refugees, who are the most vulnerable?

 

David Vandervelde June 20, 2017

Thanks for this! Love it.

(Synod)
JoyceGB . June 20, 2017

A Note Regarding Copyright/Permissions References on the Songs and Liturgies chart: 

P.D. =public domain (no permission necessary to use these songs)

CCLI#: you can insert your CCLI # to the end of this copyright line and place is on the music/slide to use this song legally. If you don't have a CCLI license you will need to contact the copyright holder directly. 

OneLicense: If you have a OneLicense number you can add it and use this song legally.  If you don't have this license you will need to contact the copyright holder directly. 

posted in : Worship at Synod 2017
(Synod)
Doug Vande Griend June 19, 2017

I loved your postgame show Paul.  :-)

(Synod)
Bonnie Nicholas June 19, 2017

Great article and resources - THANKS for posting this Monica. Anger towards the one that perpetrated the abuse and cause the damage is appropriate; it reflects God's anger at sin and is an important, critical part of the process. With our God, there is hope for much healing for all parties who have been impacted, I've seen that transformational healing, and it motivates me to continue in this work. 

Doug Vande Griend June 19, 2017

Good article Monica.  I wholeheartedly agree that anger can be good, even necessary.  Its a bit like a sharp knife.  Dangerous if not handled properly, but sometimes much preferred to (even required instead of) a dull one.

I also appreciated this author's straight out assertion that abused children aren't irreparably broken.  They and others need to know that, be persuaded of it -- cuz its true.  Insisting otherwise tends to make the sense of broken-ness extend longer, or even permanently.

Staci Devries June 19, 2017

Hi Melissa, are you looking for ideas on what website building tools to use? 

posted in : Website Policy
Bill Heersink June 16, 2017

 Is this Church Vitality Index formula a valid measure of a church’s missional health?  Consider which of these two churches is responding most faithfully to Jesus’ commission on the Easter Sunday evening in John 20:  

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.”

22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

Church A has a 50 year history in a neighborhood which over the past 20 years has transitioned into a largely Spanish-speaking population, most of whom are first generation immigrants.  Most members of the congregation have chosen to move to newer neighborhood on the outskirts of the city, where many have joined Church B.   But around a fourth of the members have remained committed to Church A—either because they were not financially able to move or/and because they sensed a call to remain a presence and witness in the older neighborhood.  Most of these people are past childbearing years, so there are few child baptisms.  Language and preferred worship style are barriers to bringing in new residents in the neighborhood, so there are few transfers or converts joining the congregation.  Nevertheless, members have actively sought to welcome and become acquainted with new residents.  Most of this is done by personal contacts and conversations, but periodically a bi-lingual event—concert, informative discussions, talent shows, games and always with food—is held at the church building to which many in the neighborhood now show up.  At some of these events the four Latino congregations in the area are invited to publicize their calendar and make literature available, Recently a fifth church has begun and worships at Church A’s facility on Sunday afternoons.  Members have also organized an ESL class, with day care for young children, which meets two mornings a week at the church.  When it became evident that undocumented immigrants had become very fearful over changes in government policy, a men’s Bible Study group decided to approach the city council seeking ways to modify or at least clarify things so as to relieve some of this anxiety.  The church’s budget includes a sizeable benevolent fund to be available for basic food, utilities, and transportation needs that become evident among neighborhood families.

 

Meanwhile Church B has grown rapidly, mostly through younger families with children, so child baptisms are monthly happenings.  People are joining from a variety of denominational backgrounds, and since many adults do not have a baptismal record they too agree to their being baptized upon joining.  The leadership of the church is pre-occupied with planning a building expansion, helping new folks assimilate into the fellowship and hiring staff to plan and organize activities.  The vision statement of the church is primarily about attendance projections along with the building space and fund-raising needed to facilitate this growth.

John Lee June 15, 2017

Ditto for the context in which I currently minister. In rural, Midwestern America, the missional edge is much more with what Barna calls the "prodigals/nomads/exiles" - rather than than the formally "unconverted". It is with the "dechurched" not the "unchurched". To quote a Barna 6-3-13 article:

"Over half of Millennials with a Christian background (59%) have, at some point, dropped out of going to church after having gone regularly, and half have been significantly frustrated by their faith. Additionally, more than 50% of 18-29 year olds with a Christian background say they are less active in church compared to when they were 15."

I just had a conversation with two such individuals a half hour ago who are dealing with a lot of past pain and hurt. When they come back into a church community and find healing and a new start - they don't show up in a CVI - but I would suggest they still reflect a sign of vital kingdom ministry for which we should give thanks.

 

ok cupid June 15, 2017

The first one covers Genesis, the second covers the rest of the Pentateuch. Book number 4 covers the Wisdom books.  http://okcupid2.tumblr.com/https://okcupid2com.blogspot.com/

Doug Vande Griend June 14, 2017

Once upon a time, the federal government required sponsors for immigrants, who would be responsible for the financial needs of the immigrants.  Good system for multiple reasons.

Today, the federal and state government predominantly funds immigrants.  Thus, we need, or want, more federal budget dollars.

I would suggest going backward, in both policy and budgeting.

Mavis Moon June 14, 2017

I'm not sure I understand what this would look like. Can you give some examples of what you are talking about? Such as: "preach[ing] co-illumining Bible/creation-based sermons and catechiz[ing] whole lives based on the whole counsel of God? " Could you give a link to someone doing that? Or a transcript? And "tutor[ing] seminarians on God’s word in nursing, computer science and journalism and [teaching] them how to read those ‘creation texts’". I'd like to see it and understand it better.

Gary Brouwers June 14, 2017

I agree. We submit the information but it doesn't seem to show up, neither in the printed yearbook nor on the website.

Carol Sybenga June 14, 2017

Hi Pete - Yes, you are correct that we are developing a phone app that will have the capacity for online giving. The app is currently in a test phase with churches in Classis Niagara and we are hoping to have it go live across Canada this fall. The app of course is capable of doing way more than provide ways for people to give - it's also an outreach tool and a way for churches to communicate with members so that they get important information (prayers, announcements) right into the palms of their hands. Additionally members will be able to watch worship videos if unable to attend on a given Sunday, if their church makes such recordings. There will be many other features, so stay tuned.

Jeff Brower June 13, 2017

Does anyone know why this information is no longer published in the yearbook? It would only be an extra ten or twenty pages.

Mavis Moon June 13, 2017

We also struggle with a definition, but it is the definition of "member". We have a significant number of people who come to church pretty much every Sunday, and we consider them a member of our church family. But they do not, and do not want, to go through the formal membership process. That seems foreign and unnecessary to them. 

I'm not saying we never go through the formal membership process - we do. But it seems wrong to narrow the definition of "member" to that piece of paper when we're talking about people who have been beloved members of our church family for years.

Gary Brouwers June 13, 2017

When counting our numbers each year, we struggle over the definition of evangelism. We welcome people into membership in the church who have not been part of a church for many years. They are not transferring from a non-CRC church. Still, we wouldn't say that they were new believers. They were believers, separated from their community. This group doesn't seem to fit either label. It seems that there may be a benefit to creating a fourth indicator.

Edsel Mahadika June 13, 2017

doctrine of predestination

Chester VanderZee June 13, 2017

 The Giveness of things, by Marilynne Robinson; Heaven by Randy Alcorn

Jeanne Kallemeyn June 13, 2017

I've posted the Offer Letters for Non-Ordained Church Staff for anyone who is interested. Thanks!

Doug Vande Griend June 9, 2017

I fully support, contrary to my denominational bureaucracy,  apparently, shifting some authority and responsibility for environmental concerns from the federal government to the states.  The proposed budget represents that perspective.  It is a misinterpretation -- or perhaps just political partisanship -- to suggest the proposed budget represents lack of concern for what the CRCNA likes to call Creation Care.

Merl Van Zante June 9, 2017

I'm so thankful that President Trump had the common sense to pull out the biggest hoax since evolution - Man made climate change and the Paris agreement.

Angelyn Kuiper June 8, 2017

Hi Bill! It looks like the address is on the event page where people are asked to 'rsvp', but good suggestion to add it to this post as well.

Bill Vis June 8, 2017

Wouldn't it be wise to include the address of Monroe Community Church in this announcement? I know where it is, but we shouldn't assume everyone does, or force them to dig to figure it out.

Maria Oliveira June 8, 2017

The Praying for Renewal in the Christian Reformed Church Facebook page recommended "Dirty Glory" by Pete Greig. So I am going to check that one out this summer!

Bonnie Nicholas June 8, 2017

Thanks for sharing this helpful article. The CareLeader newsletters often have useful information for those interested in ministry with others. Safe Church Ministry so-sponsored Trauma Healing training with World Renew last February, and we will co-sponsor another event in Canada in November. Churches can become places of healing when church members are equipped to deal with trauma that people are facing. Often we think we need to be a therapist or a professional, and sometimes that help is needed. Yet tremendously valuable to someone who is hurting is the ministry of presence, just being there with them. And a listening ear, truly listening without judgment, and without trying to "fix" someone, just listening, is a very valuable gift, that most of us are already equipped to give. May our congregations become safer places as we learn to listen to one another.

Jeanne Kallemeyn June 8, 2017

Joel - I have some samples of offer letters which are often used when hiring non-ordained church staff.  You are welcome to connect with me at jkallemeyn@crcna.org and I'll send them your way.

Lea Wilkening June 7, 2017

I love this. I sense momentum toward that church reformation in our denomination every day. That said, I also sense we tempted to sit on the fence, in terms of seeking stability and sustainability. These are exciting times if we are brave enough to close our eyes and hold on for the ride. 

Staci Devries June 7, 2017

Thanks for sharing! Blessings in your new role. 

posted in : I am a New Deacon
Staci Devries June 6, 2017

The best book I've read recently is When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi. An emotional and powerful read by a neurosurgeon who is diagnosed with stage IV lung cancer. He writes honestly about what happens to your faith and life plans when the unthinkable happens. He made me think about what makes life worth living and the impact we leave on those around us. 

A couple books that I want to read include Born a Crime by Trevor Noah and A Woman's Place: A Christian Vision for Your Calling in the Office, the Home, and the World by Katelyn Beaty. 

Sara Hogan June 5, 2017

I'd love to hear more about the research conducted with / on your target audiences. This name misses the mark for me entirely and I'm hoping that's because maybe I'm outside your intended audience (although that's discouraging in a whole different way). This article mentions the extensive research conducted on the activities of the organizations, but please share more about the testing of this chosen name outside your internal teams - it will help to remove our (my) subjective biases toward personal preference to resist change ;-) Obviously, the name can always be *different* - what gives you confidence that this one is *right*? I watched the video and it feels very insider-y. I guess I was hoping for a name that would relate to my neighbors - across the street and the ocean - in a very real, tangible way of anticipating God's work through us to restore shalom. Resonate feels too much like noise and not enough like action to accurately reflect the work of the organization in my opinion.   

Doug Vande Griend June 2, 2017

I understand and applaud CRC pastors preaching about the subject of creation care (cultural mandate, creation, etc).  I don't understand or applaud CRC pastors preaching about climate change (or at least taking political or scientific positions about it), anymore than I would understand or applaud CRC pastors preaching about fourth generation nuclear power plants.  Both climate change and nuclear power plants are matters about which pastors (and the CRCNA) are woefully uninformed.  Beyond that, there is no clear or even ambiguous biblical mandate about climate change or nuclear power plants.  

Congregants can and should of course think about climate change and nuclear power plants because they believe they should be involved in creation care, but they will form various conclusions about both subjects, all of which may align with scripture, even though the pastors -- or CRCNA -- may declare in a particular direction on the subjects.

Marian Lensink June 2, 2017

Thanks Keith, that's helpful!

Keith Doornbos June 1, 2017

Thanks Marian for your insights and your question.  

Yes, you are exactly right that sharing faith is all about relationships. Relationships are God's tilled field for the Gospel.  The Church Renewal Lab emphasizes this reality as we teach the importance of nurturing a "personal parish" where everyone invests in intentional relationships with those God places in our path.  

 

The three-step plan suggested in this article seeks to provide simple training so followers of Jesus are able to give answer to the hope that is within them.  Recently I put this into practice with a young person God put in my path.  Our first meeting was not faith connected but during subsequent gatherings I began to introduce "God-words" into our conversation so he understood that I was a person of faith.  During an extended coffee time a couple months later I asked if I could share my testimony with him and when he tragically lost a couple friends in a drowning accident I was able to share the hope of the Gospel.  

Moving from God-words, to testimony to sharing the Gospel has been an important part of my own faith sharing journey.

Doug Vande Griend June 1, 2017

I've read all of the 4 parts in this series, as well as numerous other explanations of "missional" and "m issional church" and I'm still at a loss to understand exactly what it means.  My conclusion is that it is not so different than the word "smurf" was to those little blue cartoon characters.  Indeed, by the end of a "Smurfs" episode, you had a sense for what the word "smurf" meant, but only a sense, and vague at that, but they kept saying it and so perhaps you felt obliged to have a sense for what it meant.  And so you did.

Thank you for that encouragement, Karen! I'll pass that along to the others who worked on the resource as well. Appreciate it. 

Karen Deboer May 31, 2017

This is a wonderful resource, Danielle. Thank you for including such great ideas for talking with children about how they can welcome and love the refugees in their community. 

Karen Deboer May 31, 2017

Hi Eric,

Thank you for your comment. What a blessing that your 3 grandkids are so eager to go to their church on Sunday. As a parent that’s a dream I also share for my grandkids one day! The Orange curriculum which I described in the post and which they use at Yellowbox Church has always been very intentional about reaching out to families and providing resources to churches to help them to do that. Although the CRC has always talked about the “three legged stool” of faith formation---church, school, home--I don’t know that we’ve always done the best job we can encouraging and equipping families to form faith at home. We kind of left that leg of the stool up families to figure out. It’s something that Faith Formation Ministries is working to change (and a big part of our going to the BOT to ask for funding.) We need to do a better job supporting family faith formation. And we can certainly learn from Orange in that regard. So thanks for making that important connection.

Several years ago I sat down with an enthusiastic Children’s Ministry Director at an Ontario church. They had been using 252 Basics for several years and were planning a renovation that would add space to their building so they could fully implement the program. Beyond their baptism Sunday, the kids at that church don’t  enter the main sanctuary or worship with their families again until they are in Grade 6. They are dropped off before the main worship service begins and picked up afterwards. The Director told me that  families love it because they can enjoy worship without their kids and because their kids are learning to make wise choices; the leaders love it because the prep is minimal; and she loves it because “you don’t even have to be a Christian to teach it” so it’s easy to get volunteers.  

Here’s the thing. Children are not bait to get parents to church. Children grow in faith as they are participating in worship with all generations in addition to time spent with their peers in an age appropriate learning environment. Children learn about wise choices at school; at church we have an opportunity to grow in them a deep and wide faith, a three-dimensional faith which Robert Keeley defines as “a faith that is rooted deep inside so that even when our head doubts or our heart falters, our faith remains strong. This faith goes beyond platitudes and catchphrases. It’s a faith that realizes that God is faithful even when our questions go unanswered.” (Helping Our Children Grow in Faith, p. 14)

Your point about the what and the how being intertwined is an important one. We need to teach in creative ways that capture the hearts, mind and spirit of the kids we’re leading and learning alongside. We need to build loving, faith nurturing relationships with the kids in our programs. We need to encourage and equip their families. But---if we want to nurture in children a three-dimensional faith, we can’t introduce them to a one-dimensional God of wise choices. We need to invite them into God’s story and help them find their place in it. And we need to teach from a curriculum that does that.

 

Paul VanderKlay May 30, 2017

I'm just trying to follow the thread here. Yellowbox Church uses Orange, the negative example from the article. https://communitychristian.org/resources/kidscityparentresources/ 

So the point of this comment contradicts the posted article's point. 

I'm just trying to understand. pvk

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