Bev Sterk

Hetty, there are multiple dynamics that especially came together regarding various views of women, about 6 years ago in my journey. I weep and hurt with the women & the church who have had some of their gifts/insights/voices hindered & treated as unwelcome and unwanted. I weep & hurt with women who have experienced abuse, but instead of receiving support & justice from those in the church who had the power to do so, they were blamed, shamed & silenced. There are numerous reasons I am pursuing this at this time. The women and church in Iran is one of many, but it is a significant one for me, for several reasons!

I have experienced significant impact through how God uses the internet (including this CRCNA Network) for women's voices to be heard & be at the table. God can use this however He wants & I can testify of how He has encouraged others, especially women, through the information I share, of who we are in Christ. He knows each of our journeys, including how we got to our views on women in the Church & what His truth/heart is. He calls us to be Bereans, to search the scriptures & test everything. What this looks like, can be very different depending on each person's unique journey.

There are those who want to do what's right & are in the process of testing the traditional views of women, there are Christian women leading others in Iran, that can share God's view of women as equal co laborers/ministers/servants in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord. 

Our identity in Christ is another HUGE reason, I wrestle with the traditional view & search for God's heart, what does HE say! The most important part of our identity is that we are His children/people, part of His family!

 

Here's a list of who GOD says we are because of Who He is! (I'm thinking I might start a new post with this)...

 Our Identity in Christ Jesus

                       YOU ARE PRECIOUS AND PRICELESS

He calls us HIS SAINTS, HIS HOLY PEOPLE (over 90 times in NT)...

To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints  Rom 1:7;

 because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.  Rom 8:27;

To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord  I Cor 1:2;

To all the saints in Christ Jesus Phil 1:1;

He calls us sons and daughters, His children, over and over...

“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.”  2 Cor 6:18

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!  I John 3:1

So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith  Gal 3:26

He calls us righteous...

For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers  I Peter 3:12

He calls us dearly beloved Colossians 3:12

He calls us temples of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9, 2 Timothy 1:14

He calls us new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17

He calls us anointed

He calls us upright in heart

He calls us faithful and Godly

He calls us those who fear Him

He calls us friends (John 15:13-15), forgiven, redeemed, cherished, loved, upright, Beloved of God (Rom 1:7), Beloved Brethren (James 2:5), Children of God (John 1:12), Sons of the Living God (Rom 9:26), Sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35), Children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), Chosen (lots of verses), Co workers/fellow workers/co-laborers (1 Cor 3:9, etc) Dear Children (Eph 5:1), Elect of God (Col 3:12), The Faithful (Ps 12:1), The Godly (2 Pet 2:9), Heirs of God (Gal 4:7), Holy/Royal Priesthood (I Pet 2:5-9), The Just (Hab 2:4), Little Children (1 John 2:1), Living Stones (1 Pet 2:5), Special People (Titus 2:14), Slaves of Righteousness (Rom 6:18), Sheep of Christ (John 10:1-16), Servants of Christ (1 Cor 7:22), Salt of the Earth (Matt 5:13:16), His treasured people (Malachi 3:17), etc.!

and this list is not complete!

 

God, also through His Word, calls us blessed (lots of times - I have a list)

the Aaronic blessing... The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the Lord lift His countenance toward you and give you His peace... Numbers 6:24-26

Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification... For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.… I Cor 14:26,31 NKJV

please test & discern! 

The following is in response to Rob's first hesitation with his research of "authentein" in the TLG... I really appreciate Rob's interest in trying to find the original sources! It's one of the things I've been trying to work on & get help with, with very little progress that included considerable frustration so far, partially due to my nonexistent Greek capabilities. (:/) \0/

authentein & the TLG...  I would love to find the original context/narrative for each use of the "authente" root that we know of... especially between about 500 BCE until 400 CE, very intentionally noting where the shift in meaning became the more common usage... it seems, this word has quite a history & it is critical we research it more in depth... The Septuagint's usage carries a lot of weight for me, that I have not seen given to its use by others in my research & I am not convinced on why it hasn't been given more weight (the only indirect reason I have come across is because the Wisdom of Solomon is classical/attic Greek instead of koine Greek which adds to the confusion). The context of idolatry/witchcrafts/sacrifices are such a significant part of the Ephesus/Asia Minor culture that Paul & Timothy are addressing & Paul was quite likely familiar with this context & usage in the Septuagint. I will elaborate on why I believe Paul was familiar with the usage of "authente" words & used "authentein" in this context at the end of this post in a bit...

I found this interesting as I was following up today on the TLG website link that Rob shared in his response since part of this discussion is about witchcraft- TLG - Home (uci.edu) :

• Word of the day:
• θέλγητρον, ‑ου, τό

• a charm or spell

• First attested: 6 B.C.
• 158 time(s) in TLG corpus

I personally have not used TLG before... I would love to learn more about it... I am only aware of TLG via Wilshire's work on authentein using the TLG platform. Now, as I am reading the history of TLG, it makes me cry, it's so amazing!!! TLG - History (uci.edu) I love when technology is used well for the common good! It is an incredible resource to have access to all these ancient documents, that anyone who is interested can read, that someone like me who never studied Greek can access & read in English!  I am thankful that others are willing to look into these documents & test them with me, information that was not accessible for most of us before the last 20 years or so... I know I am getting to the point where I need others to help further research & test the witchcraft aspect of Ephesus/Asia Minor & 1 Timothy, & I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us find God's truth... discerning God's heart for women is something that has caused much contention & divisiveness for far too long... We should not fear this path we are on, because whatever we find, we are searching with a love for His truth, knowing that God wants what is best for us, whatever that might be! 

In the last 5 years or so, I personally have wrestled with a lot of the concerns and questions that Rob & others have brought up in various discussions/research over the years. The reasons why a more intensive, in-depth research started for me in 2018 is its own story... I am sharing some of what I have found in my journey ... I want to test everything, because there are dynamics that were not discussed when this went through Synod in 1995-1996, that I'm aware of &/or were dismissed for various reasons in the 1990s that the reasons are sketchy, so I took another look - I could be wrong & am open to any evidence that supports otherwise...

Here is an example of something that was discussed & dismissed by some scholars (not aware of this being discussed in the CRC, but I could be wrong): in the 90's, some scholars dismissed the witchcraft aspect in Ephesus as "bizarre" and "far-fetched"... what scholar or intellectual is going to risk their reputation on something that is viewed as irrational? One of my favorite TED talks is "dare to disagree"... Margaret Heffernan: Dare to disagree | TED Talk (you can read the transcript as an option if you prefer) ... A key to my journey of discovery was becoming aware of Artemis of the Ephesians' significant influence in that culture as a goddess (Acts 19 & her temple as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) ... The more I researched, the more a traditionally difficult passage made sense to me, & it didn't stop with Artemis or 1 Timothy 2:12!

I have done a fair amount of research on "authentein" over the last 5 years or so (along with digging into other Greek words) ... my research includes going through Al Wolters findings... 00-Text_JETS52-4 (etsjets.org) AUQENTHS AND ITS COGNATES IN BIBLICAL GREEK ...  I will probably have to re-read it at some point, as it's been about 3 years since I read it...

All this to say, I don't think we can or should minimize or dismiss what Paul meant when he used "authentein" here! It is a key word used & in my experience that a lot has hinged on over the ages, in a verse that is often the default used at some point to support the complementarian view of women in the Church to say the "Bible is clear", when there are a whole lot of questions that this verse/passage raises!

At this point, what I have found, is that it is very possible that the Greek root "authente" has a very negative meaning that Paul had in mind when he uses this very rare Greek word "authentein", used only 1 time in the NT in 1 Timothy 2:12. It's possible it might be "kin- murderer" or a broader type of abuse of power that harms others, especially the vulnerable, that includes murder & sacrifice.

Here's some of my support for that: 

1) Paul uses 3 hapax legomenon in 1 Tim 9 to describe 3 specific types of murderers. 2 of these are a specific type of "kin murderer". I would love to see research on each of these words, where they are used in other Greek literature... I have not been able to figure out how to do this yet... any help would be much appreciated!!! What are the chances that just a few paragraphs before Paul uses "authentein", he intentionally mentions murder 3x!

2) Paul was familiar with the Septuagint, he quotes it verbatim at places in his letters, he was more than likely familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Septuagint. He would have seen the similarity of the worship of gods/goddesses going on in his time, that the Septuagint refers to going on centuries before. The worship of gods/goddesses was so commonplace in that time, it would be like us talking about sports & different sports teams today. But somehow over the ages, that significant aspect of culture got lost/minimized/ignored. There is a history here, that needs to be looked at. I hope to share some of the history, when I respond to Rob's hesitation that women were not allowed in leadership for the last 2000 years until the early 70's... It's a fascinating journey, one that I had never heard/read about in any of my research/discussions on this for either complementarian or egalitarian. Not saying it wasn't mentioned somewhere, just not in what I was aware of before I did my own research into the original languages, history of the early church & church fathers.

3) Paul had spent time in Athens @ the Areopagus/Mars Hill per Acts 17. The Areopagus was a place where authentes/murderers were tried by the council of elders there. Paul would have been aware of that~! The worst murderers were tried there because there was a belief that people did not want to be tainted by being under the same roof as the authentes/murderers, so this was an open-air court room. At the foot of this hill, was a place called the temple of Erinyes/Eumenides, the Furies, generally considered to be comprised of 3 goddesses, that were believed to be a part of the authentes/murderers sentencing...  Erinyes - Wikipedia (warning, includes some graphic info about what the gods/goddesses did) ... 

Paul had also lived in Ephesus for about 3 years (Acts 19), so he was very familiar with the cultural context of Artemis & the 50 or so other gods/goddesses that were being worshipped there... Paul most likely encountered cultic worship in every area he visited. Again, it was as common as sports teams in many countries, each with their own unique aspects, but also a lot of overlap. 

4) Paul mentions "doctrines of demons" in 1 Tim 4:1, he mentions satan several times as well in this letter to Timothy.  Asia minor was home to a pantheon of mythical gods & goddesses, many/most? who practiced mystery/secret rituals that are often referred to as the "mystery religions". These secrets are referred to in the Revelation letter to Thyatira (160 miles from Ephesus).

There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used...  Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing!

My apologies, my comments get so long ie TLDR... but we are discussing something that has become very complex over the ages, including the letter to Timothy that includes one of the most difficult passages, that has had a lot written about it, especially in the last 50 years or so. Even with minimal research on this, we can no longer say It's "clear" & a "plain reading of the text" for various reasons - that is why the CRC has allowed both views & with the information commonly available at the time, I can see why. I think the meaning of authentein was obvious when Paul wrote it for what he meant, because the practice of witchcraft in the name of the gods/goddesses was so common as part of that culture, but somehow, for a variety of reasons, since then, this aspect has been obfuscated & lost.

I encourage everyone to research this for themselves, however if anyone wants links about something that they wonder about, let me know & I will try to find them again...

My prayer is we can look into this & test this together as the priesthood of ALL believers, where EVERYONE has something to share to edify, encourage & build up the body of Christ so that ALL may learn! 

For the Glory of God & our good... 

The following response includes more discussion on 1 Timothy 2:11-12, addressing Rob's 3rd hesitation...

read as you have time & space to process... be a Berean, test everything!

before 2018, I was oblivious to much of this information for various reasons, partly because I never heard it in church or came across it in my CRC readings. If there is anything on this in the CRC context, I am interested in listening to or reading it!

Per Rob's response: Thirdly, Paul says women must "learn quietly" (v. 11). The biblical context for v. 12's authentein is v. 11's "learn quietly." So, authentein doesn't seem to be contrasted with witchcraft, but with learning in an outspoken way. EOQ

I wonder if the learn quietly (hésuchia) has to do with the teaching/didaskein based on 1 Tim 1:3&7? Paul commands Timothy to give this woman an opportunity to learn her new faith before she is permitted to teach, otherwise her teaching included false teaching/doctrines, possibly ones that came from myths/fables (god & goddess worship) & endless geneologies (1 Tim 1:3-4,6-7) that were part of her former cultic beliefs. It's possible that she had been (false?) teaching in a domineering & forceful way similar to how things were possibly taught in the cults (I haven't done a lot of research on the teaching in cults but have come across a bit that implied it was loud & domineering - interestingly, I have come across that one of the more common meanings of hecate is: makes her will dominate/ prevail).

I believe Paul had a certain woman in mind, along with a few other people based when he wrote "certain people" in 1 Tim 1:3 that also probably included the men named in 1 Tim 1:20. For whatever reason, the 1984 NIV says "certain men" in 1 Tim 1:3, where most translations use a gender inclusive term/phrase here, which seems to be more accurate based on the Greek.

Another reason why I believe this is a specific woman is one of the very interesting things in v11-12 is that Paul switched from using plural women in v 9-10 to singular woman in 11-12. Now, I've been told that I'm making way too much out of a difference of 1 letter. Maybe... but the difference might be between 1 person & half of the Kingdom Church. Why would Paul do this? If we believe it's through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we cannot ignore this switch.

It's possible that Paul is thinking of a very specific woman that might have been one of the many new converts from the Artemis, etal cults (Acts 19) who possibly served as a priestess on behalf of Artemis &/or other goddesses. So, her attempts at teaching (referred to in v12) could include beliefs & practices from her former life (support for this includes the doctrines of demons aka witchcraft in 1 Tim 4:1, along w millions of $ worth of magic/sorcery scrolls burned in Acts 19:19 that many of the new converts destroyed), teaching things when she doesn't know what she's talking about (1v7) as a new believer & she needs to learn more about her new faith with a calm and cooperative attitude before she can teach.

This whole section v8-15 is a point-by-point corrective of certain beliefs/practices that were associated with the gods/goddesses, especially, but not exclusively, Artemis. This passage is part of the chapter that has been titled instructions on worship, but it is not limited to worship. It's a collective list of various correctives of problems that Timothy is dealing with. This becomes more apparent when we understand how Artemis, etal were worshipped at the time, especially when we look at v15 & childbearing! Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 667 (tufts.edu) A verse that over the years, many theologians have struggled with how to interpret. None of the commentaries that I have read so far, say anything about the goddesses as guardians of childbirth. If I missed it, let me know! here's an extensive sampling! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (biblehub.com) 

I love that v 11 includes the only command in this passage to "let a woman learn"! I am brought to tears just thinking about how revolutionary this was in that culture and time, how gracious it was to this woman who was possibly part of the problem of bad teaching in 1 Tim 1:3&7! Even now, this is an amazing command for ALL women, as I think about the women in Afghanistan who have been banned from university & any education beyond elementary, that is going on even today, when I read about patriarchal parents who do not encourage (& sometimes strongly discourage) their daughters from going to university. These limitations for women learning break my heart, especially when to "let a woman learn" is the command that is given to Timothy, as God's Holy Word.

Looking at the various translations of v11, some seem to emphasize that the command is about a woman's (all womens'?) quietness/silence & submission/subjection instead of learning. Why did some versions use "silence" instead of "quietness" & calm as the Greek word implies? It's best for everyone, women & men, to learn with a calmness & quietness, that's not just for women, it's part of the fruit of the Spirit.

Strong's Greek: 2271. ἡσυχία (hésuchia) -- stillness (biblehub.com)

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ)

So what is the universal message of v11? that all should have opportunities to learn & grow in our faith, especially for those new in the faith, that we ALL should learn in quietness & cooperation with those who are more mature & experienced in the faith, being open to teachings, revelations, etc that others share with us. Does this mean we never question or use discernment when we are learning? Of course not, we are all called to test everything... that needs to be taught as well!  The Bereans were a noble people who searched the scriptures after they heard Paul preach. May we do the same!

We can have an entire discussion on the use of "silence" by the KJVs & how that has limited women over the years & even still today is impacting the Kingdom Church, but I will skip that for now... it's part of a discussion on 1 Cor 14:33-35 & women being allowed to speak or not in church gatherings.

I will share my research on "hupotage" in the next comment!

my apologies if this seems to be a firehose of information... it's been a profound, but also painful, journey of discovery for me as I come across information that as far as I'm aware, has not been a significant part of the discussion if mentioned at all (ie the v15 childbearing & the goddesses as guardians watching over the women during childbirth so they would not die). How did we miss this for so long? or am I so far off base/deceived with what I'm finding?

What I have found makes sense to me, I cannot ignore it, and I really appreciate when people honestly & humbly test what I share - thank you Rob!

My research includes so many different sources, including the original languages of Scripture. This is not a low view of scripture, or caving to modern culture, or rebelling & usurping authority as has been suggested by some who do not believe women are allowed to teach/preach/be in authority over men in the Church but refuse to engage with what I share... this is going back to the ancient paths/sources/texts/culture (& yes we can discuss "created order" at some point as that seems to have become the definitive basis for exclusively male pastors/elders in more recent years using 1 Tim 2:11-15 & ch 3 to justify it)...

Jeremiah 6:16a This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look. Ask for the ancient paths: 'Where is the good way?'... 

Excerpt from comment on 2.1.24: So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare) EOQ

Alright got to the part where MW talks about Jerome & "dominari" & wow - was not expecting MW's conclusion of how he (& Al W) considers it positive & means "servant leadership"! That's a FIRST that I've heard that meaning! Feel free to prove me wrong if this is a common understanding from other sources besides Al W! Or maybe I am understanding it wrong? I've watched it a few times & read the words & am still in a bit of disbelief & will go through it down below!

I love that this is challenging me to keep digging deeper into the ancient languages! it is so amazing that I can pull up the parallel English & Latin translations on one screen & the Greek & English on another & within seconds find a passage that I want to compare!!!

So that's what we are going to look at today!!

@ about 6:23 MW starts looking at translations... around hour 7, MW shares a bit about how words can change over the time w each translation & a bit on how Erasmus ends up adding what MW says is an "illegitimate" "usurp" into the mix -  I agree that authentein has quite an interesting & horrific history.. & agree to a point on Erasmus, the usurp is not there in the Greek at all, but Erasmus did pick up a negative vibe somewhere in his study on this verse & the meaning of authentein! I can't ignore that, & usurp was the best he could do with what he had at the time... authentein lost the murderous dynamic from Pre Paul, somewhere it lost the authoritarian vibe that seemed to be associated with it from Pre Paul at least through Jerome, & now w Erasmus, authentein lost the authoritarian dynamic while implying an illegitimate authority. The next step is general authority! if that's the case, then why did Paul use this very rare & strange word!

AL W & MWS believe that what Jerome meant with his use of "dominare" in 1 Tim 2:12 is servant leadership... & I agree with MW who says we can do better (then Erasmus) today bc we have better research today into the original languages (I have used that rationale with pastors/elders & have recd all kinds of less than supportive responses regarding translations!) so I'm going to use one of the research tools we now have to show that Jerome meant a domineering type of lording it over others, not servant leadership. 

so lets go back to about 6:34 where authentein -> "dominari" has been often translated as "to domineer" and to "lord it over"...

Old Latin dominari - MW says authentein was not pejorative at the time in the 2nd century so therefore dominari must be positive or neutral...  so per Al W dominari has a positive sense of simply rule, reign or govern & at 6:36:45-6:37:33 MW says ***1  "dominatur" is rules by SERVING (per usage on bottom of screen text) & dominor is consistent with SERVANT LEADERSHIP!  WOW!  ok, so me being me (gotta test this stuff!!!) I looked up "dominatur" & one response was it's not a latin word, but "dominator" is derived from "dominari"... another, this comes from "dominor" & is the action of domineering as lord & master as well as rule, reign & govern,which is what we are not supposed to do as brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ! 

little bit of my personal journey as I'm pondering of what we are dealing with... My mind cannot compute how on one hand we say lording it over is a good positive thing when Jesus expressly forbids it? I have struggled with this as I have wrestled with abuses of power over the last 10 years! Bc this is how abuses of power happen & gives permission to authoritarian leadership yet call themselves "servant leaders"! Obey your leaders & submit to their authority bc they know what's best for you...! Right?  Nope! Hebr 13:17 in the 1984 NIV is an entire discussion on its own w at least 10 red flags when we look at the Greek! But the 84 NIV seems to support that authoritarian type of leadership is a good thing. 

Back to word study on the domini family... 

dominatur‎ (Latin): meaning, synonyms - WordSense

dominor

1. I am lord and/or master or have dominion, domineer.
2. I dominate, rule, reign, govern.

dominor, dominaris, dominari A, dominatus sum (Dep.) - Latin is Simple Online Dictionary (latin-is-simple.com)  

1. to be master/despot/in control
2. to rule over
3. to exercise sovereignty

Now, let's look at where Jerome himself uses & does not use the domini family of words!!!

Here is the Latin/english for 1 Tim 2:12 Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - First Epistle of Paul to Timothy 2

12docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio



But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Guess what, Jerome uses ***1 "dominatur" (remember that word from Al & MW's belief that it is positive?) when Jesus tells His disciples that they are NOT TO LORD IT OVER like the Gentiles do but Jerome DOES NOT use it for general authority or to exercise authority, where it seems he consistently uses the Latin potestatem for power/authority/exousia... so why would Jesus be telling His disciples NOT TO be servant leaders if that is what dominatur means? This is part of the confusion that is happening on both sides! 

So what does Jerome use for a servant leader?  the Latin "minister" in v26! The Latin "servus" in v27, & "ministrari/e in v28...  see Matt 20:25-28Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - Matthew 20

Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - Epistle of Paul to the Romans 16 see v1 for Phoebe being in ministry, sometimes tx as deacon (ie 2011 NIV, NLT), but often tx as servant in a # of English versions such as 1984 NIV, ESV & KJVs...

*** 2 Domini, Domine, Domino, Dominus all refer to God/Jesus as the/our Lord! There are 9 uses of "Lord" in this chapter, Rom 16!

Guess what word is NOT in this chapter of Paul's co-laborers? There's quite a number of descriptions, but none that include any form of dominari other than referring to the Lord Himself! This chapter would be a great place to include dominari if it's about servant leadership!

there's more, but I have NO IDEA how Al & MW can say that dominari is meant to be positive &/or neutral & mean "servant leadership"... seems to be quite a bit of a stretch to me... especially when we look at other uses of domini words in the Vulgate!

(*** 2: I find it concerning that the Dutch & Scottish traditions have used domine over the last 400 years or so to refer to ordained ministers/pastors but that is another discussion).

we already looked at 1 Tim 2:12 & Matt 20:25-26... ok, here's a few more & see if these are positive or pejorative...

here's a fun one...

Acts 19:16 remember the sons of Sceva?

et insiliens homo in eos in quo erat daemonium pessimum et dominatus amborum invaluit contra eos ita ut nudi et vulnerati effugerent de domo illa



And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

nope, definitely not the type of servant leadership we want!

how about... I Peter 5:3

3 neque ut dominantes in cleris sed formae facti gregi et ex animo



Neither as lording it over the clergy but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart.

in this case again, lording it over doesn't seem to be a positive thing to do whether to the clergy or by the clergy...

I think it is a considerable speculative leap to say that Jerome used "dominari" with a positive or neutral sense! I believe Jerome was influenced by the Gnostic use of Dominari to mean absolute Divine Ruler... so it lost the violent/murderous aspect, but still kept the authoritarian dynamic!

At some point MW pointed out that one of the egals used despot along with autocrat when he's referring to M&M's info @5.51.10... this is a case where both sides are wrong... MW's response seems to be very nitpicky & the egal seems to be a bit sloppy, bc *** 3 despot is a synonym for autocrat (however notice the use of vulgar in M&M's note on the side)...

au·to·crat

[ˈôdəˌkrat, ˈädəˌkrat]

noun

1. a ruler who has absolute power:

   "like many autocrats, Franco found the exercise of absolute power addictive"

   Similar:

   dictator

   *** 3 despot

   tyrant

   monocrat

   authoritarian

   absolutist

   absolute ruler

these seem pretty negative to me!

So in conclusion at this point, it seems a bit ironic that MW is accusing Linda B of the same stuff re dominari being negative (@5:32-33) while he & Al Wolters are using similar tactics trying to make "dominari" mean a positive "servant leadership"!

This has been one of my big red flags from a few comps is the intense push to make "authentein" positive or neutral... but both sides are guilty to picking & choosing to varying extents. I try to include links to support what I share but cannot always find them again! This specific hapax legomenon has definitely generated A LOT of ink because a lot depends on what it means in the context of Ephesus/asia Minor during Paul's time!

 

Enough for this week, have a wonderful weekend with family, fellowship of the saints & worship!

A brief break from lots of words... I came across this video in my research for sources of authente type words... he also shares around 7:50 another possibility of the meaning "authentein"... (yup, there has been a lot of work on this specific word in the last 30-50 years!)

(755) Why Women Must Learn in Quietness and Submission: Xenophon of Ephesus and 1 Timothy 2 (Gary Hoag) - YouTube

I had completely forgotten about the Ephesiaca document... this video shares why it has been largely ignored until the last 20 years or so due to erroneously dating of the Ephesiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus to a century or more post Paul... in 1996, it was determined it was written about 50AD... this 1st century contemporaneous document confirms the correctives that Paul is writes Timothy in 1 Tim 2... again, this is an example of the information that has come out post Synod 1996.  @ 5 minutes, Gary talks about how teaching/learning happened in the temple of Artemis (I said I hadn't researched that part much, but I had heard this concept somewhere before, just didn't remember the details...)

ps... I do have the hupotage comment drafted... so you will see that later!

Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...

Acts 2:7 Astounded and amazed, they asked, "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? (biblehub.com)  (Berean Standard Bible; click link for parallel translations)

Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14!  ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...

here's the Greek...  Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)

 all, the whole, every kind of... 

3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- this (biblehub.com)

this; he, she, it.  (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)

Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!

Finally… Here we go on hupotasso…

excerpt from Rob's response:

In the same way, fourthly, the context for authentein (v. 12) is obviously the preceding verse (v. 11) which says that women should learn "in all submissiveness" (hupotage). What is the opposite of authentein? Contextually the answer must be hupotage—submissiveness. This is the same positive word used in 1 Cor 9:13 "... they will glorify God because of your submission (hupotage) that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ..." So, Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage)." To me, this means: women should do the opposite of authentein. What is that? Hupotage. 

again note that Paul uses singular woman in v11&12 compared to the plural women in v9-10... there is something unique going on here that is specific to one woman that is being a bit of a problem in the ekklesia of Ephesus as part of the Way. 1 Timothy 2:11 A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. (biblehub.com) 

Ok, (I wrote this last week before I posted the spoiler yesterday ;) let's take a look at the meaning of "hupotage" a form of hupotasso... it's kind of a game changer when we consider a little known understanding about hupotasso: there is a military context & a non-military context. For various reasons, it seems the military meaning has been the one that has been almost exclusively used over the ages (see 1-6 below) & the non-military almost completely lost over time (see bold below). I came across the non-military meaning a few years ago, then tried to find it again & it took me a bit, as the military meaning has overwhelmingly been the default.

The body of Christ, marriage & family relationships are not the military... so what might that mean if we recognize that there is a different meaning in non-military usage that is probably more appropriate in the Church? I get quite a range of interesting responses when I share this non-military context meaning with people, so I have no idea how anyone is going to respond to this! for some it's a huge relief, for others, it ticks them off... but I'm not making this meaning up, here is a Greek Lexicon that includes the non-military meaning...

Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (KJV) (biblestudytools.com)

Hupotasso

hoop-ot-as'-so

Verb

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, COoperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (My emphASis added)

Non-military: CO prefix: together, mutually, in common; When you cooperate with another person, you work together with them to accomplish something.

Military context: SUB prefix: under, beneath... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person:

& FYI, here’s some of the definitions of responsibility! the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization; also, a moral obligation to do what’s right & being accountable. Interestingly, burden can refer to a problem, difficulty &/or responsibility that one carries.

For me, the non-military meaning makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands in the NT while the military meaning seems to be what Jesus is specifically saying not to do - "do not rule/lord it over like the Gentiles do"! Unfortunately, the military meaning has been used abusively & harmfully in far too many relationships. "Submit" has been used as a weapon to control those that are more vulnerable. (PS: this is some of the abuse / bad fruit that Kathy referred to)

So Biblical language like one another Strong's Greek: 240. ἀλλήλων (allélón) -- of one another (biblehub.com), brothers & sisters in the Lord (adelphos is gender inclusive, siblings from the same womb; Strong's Greek: 80. ἀδελφός (adelphos) -- a brother (biblehub.com)), royal priesthood (of ALL believers), holy people/saints Strong's Greek: 40. ἅγιος (hagios) -- sacred, holy (biblehub.com), co-laborers/fellow workers type of language Strong's Greek: 4904. συνεργός (sunergos) -- a fellow worker (biblehub.com) indicates this collaborative use.

Interesting, that last Greek word reminded me of synergy: the combined power of a group of things when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately.

I do NOT believe Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage).” Both Greek words here need a careful reexamination of their meaning, along with wrestling with why did Paul switch to a singular woman. Also, v12 is not a command.

It seems in v11 Paul is commanding Timothy to let a woman learn in an appropriate manner (calmly & cooperatively that is conducive for all people to learn) & in v12 he is saying in this situation with this specific woman he does not allow/permit/"epitrepo" (this Greek word seems to be always used in a case by case basis from what I have found in my research so far) this woman to teach (bc she's teaching something inappropriate/negative) &/or force her will/dominate, possibly harm (again some inappropriate/negative behavior) a man with her teaching/actions. This woman is doing something very inappropriate in the Body of Christ (but possibly ignorantly as in Ch 1 where Paul shares he was ignorant when he lists how he was the chief example of violent inappropriate sinful behavior), so Paul is telling Timothy do not permit her to continue in her harmful teaching/behavior until she learns differently & knows better.

My conclusion: The way in the Body of Christ is a loving, mutual, collaborative relational sharing of responsibilities based on a variety of dynamics. That is the non-military application of hupotasso/hupotage which I believe is more appropriate for the Body of Christ in our relationships with one another!  If we are following the one anothers, then we will be praying together as well & when we pray together there is a unity that the Spirit brings...

Teach and counsel/exhort/admonish one another (Colossians 3:16a - no restrictions on gender!)

Mutual edification: encourage and build up one another (Romans 14:19b; 1 Thessalonians 5:11)