great comments Rob. I greatly appreciate your passion for a confessional foundatoin for churches.
I have a question for you. Where do you see that the CO allows for people to be 3 point calvinsts and things like that?
to me, the language of "fully agree with God's Word" takes care of that. Jim seems to find a loop hole in that only the doctrines agree with God's word but not the articulation of those doctrines. However, an articulation of a doctrine is a doctrine, isn't it?
I hope this makes sense. I am trying to be concise. very concise.
Bev, you raise some good questions. And I have learned a lot from the discussions.
You ask where in Calvin's Institutes does he talk about cessationism. I have found his remarks on this subject in his commentaries. Read his commentaries on 1 Cor 12-14 (prophecy and tongues) and James 5 (healing). I just read it on James 5 a few weeks ago in preparation for a sermon.
Also, the idea that cessationism teaches God doesn't speak to us any more today is a misunderstanding. This position teaches God does speak to us today in his living Word. What was written in the Bible many years ago still applies to us today. Through the preaching of the Word explained and applied to us God speaks.
The topic is confessions in this thread. And this does relate to the confessions. Those who are more Charismatic, i could use some help more in understanding how you look at our confessions in light of the Charismatic teachings.
For example, Belgic Confession 5 says that only the book recognized as canonical can be used for the regulating, founding, and establishing our faith. And Belgic Confession 7 says that the Holy Scripture contains the will of God completely.
So if our confessions keep us within boundaries as we have been discussing, how can a Charismatic view of "prophecy" fit within our confessional basis? doesn't the Charistmatic view of God speaking in individual situations through dreams, visions, internal thoughts or whatnot, contradict BC 7? Why do we need "other ways" of speaking if his will is perfectly contained in the Bible?
I am curious to learn more about the position I have not had much interaction with. So thanks for discussing.
The case will certainly have to be strong to convince synod that the committee followed mandate given last year. I find little difference between the two versions.
The First CO and the now updated one are essentially the same. Without the phrase "fully agree with God's Word" the statement to "conform" our preaching to them means little. In fact, without the phrase "fully agree" why even have the CO?
What ends up happening is that we find ourselves in the same place as our Dutch forebears did in 1816 when the FoS was changed to read something like "in so far as" the confessions agree with God's Word.
If the HC, BC, and CD do not fully agree with God's Word, then we will only conform our preaching and teaching to them in so far as we think they agree with God's Word.
In the Netherlands after the FoS was changed, people started teaching things contrary to scripture. Arminian theology stood side by side with Calvinism....and there are many more historical examples. This kind of thing will likely happen in the CRC if the CO is adopted. Has your revision committee taken this history into account? Maybe you have. Maybe you want to steer us in the direction the church did a couple hundred years ago. I am sure you are aware too, that Abraham Kuyper led a movement away from this trend. We trace our history to the doleantie.
Are we not seeing a repeat of Gresham Machen’s battle? It seems like it from posts I have read from many pastor’s blogs such as John Suk.
When I signed the FoS, I was proud. It was a moment where I felt connected with our great heritage and with Godly people who have gone before us. It made me proud I was part of this denomination. It gave me courage to teach and defend the Gospel.
I agree with Chad, the FoS is not broken. What is broken is our church compromising the truth. Chad's warnings ring true.
Kevin De Young makes an excellent point in his book Why We Love the Church: “My observation is that as people grow tired of hearing about the atonement, salvation, the cross, and the afterlife, they grow tired of the church. Because the more that sin and redemption recede into the background…the more the church becomes just one among several options for making a difference in the world” (page 51).
The FoS and our strong confessional heritage is what helps us stay in the Word and thus enables us to be relevant to this world. Without the FoS and being a confessional church, we lose our relevance.
James Dekker writes, "They recommended a few change in diction without seriously changing the tone or content of the proposed Covenant."
How can you call the addition of "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend" a few changes in diction? It changed the whole document!
The first two versions of the CO essentially destroyed any notion of having doctrinal standards. The advisory committee saved the day. We still have doctrinal standards because of the work of the advisory committee.
The reason why the vote was unanimous is because of the changes the advisory committee made.
This article was awesome. I hope this gets in the hands of congregation members. I have talked to many pastors who have had times of weeping because all they hear is criticism. Some pastors go through long spells of no appreciation shown. Unfortuantely, many pators are "expendable" to them--if they don't like somethign, they can be run out of town and treated like garbage.
Here are some stats that Thabiti Anyabwile cites from The Schaeffer Institute in an article he writes called "Don't Make Your Pastor a Statistic." http://www.9marks.org/blog/dont-make-your-pastor-statistic I hope the stats are better for our denomination.
Health and Well-Being
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
50% of pastors feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way of making a living.
Marriage and Family
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
80% of spouses feel the pastor is overworked.
80% spouses feel left out and under-appreciated by church members.
Church Relationships
70% do not have someone they consider a close friend
Longevity
50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
1 out of every 10 ministers will actually retire as a minister in some form
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
great comments Rob. I greatly appreciate your passion for a confessional foundatoin for churches.
I have a question for you. Where do you see that the CO allows for people to be 3 point calvinsts and things like that?
to me, the language of "fully agree with God's Word" takes care of that. Jim seems to find a loop hole in that only the doctrines agree with God's word but not the articulation of those doctrines. However, an articulation of a doctrine is a doctrine, isn't it?
I hope this makes sense. I am trying to be concise. very concise.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
Bev, you raise some good questions. And I have learned a lot from the discussions.
You ask where in Calvin's Institutes does he talk about cessationism. I have found his remarks on this subject in his commentaries. Read his commentaries on 1 Cor 12-14 (prophecy and tongues) and James 5 (healing). I just read it on James 5 a few weeks ago in preparation for a sermon.
Also, the idea that cessationism teaches God doesn't speak to us any more today is a misunderstanding. This position teaches God does speak to us today in his living Word. What was written in the Bible many years ago still applies to us today. Through the preaching of the Word explained and applied to us God speaks.
The topic is confessions in this thread. And this does relate to the confessions. Those who are more Charismatic, i could use some help more in understanding how you look at our confessions in light of the Charismatic teachings.
For example, Belgic Confession 5 says that only the book recognized as canonical can be used for the regulating, founding, and establishing our faith. And Belgic Confession 7 says that the Holy Scripture contains the will of God completely.
So if our confessions keep us within boundaries as we have been discussing, how can a Charismatic view of "prophecy" fit within our confessional basis? doesn't the Charistmatic view of God speaking in individual situations through dreams, visions, internal thoughts or whatnot, contradict BC 7? Why do we need "other ways" of speaking if his will is perfectly contained in the Bible?
I am curious to learn more about the position I have not had much interaction with. So thanks for discussing.
Posted in: Form of Subscription or Covenant: An Eternal Debate?
The case will certainly have to be strong to convince synod that the committee followed mandate given last year. I find little difference between the two versions.
The First CO and the now updated one are essentially the same. Without the phrase "fully agree with God's Word" the statement to "conform" our preaching to them means little. In fact, without the phrase "fully agree" why even have the CO?
What ends up happening is that we find ourselves in the same place as our Dutch forebears did in 1816 when the FoS was changed to read something like "in so far as" the confessions agree with God's Word.
If the HC, BC, and CD do not fully agree with God's Word, then we will only conform our preaching and teaching to them in so far as we think they agree with God's Word.
In the Netherlands after the FoS was changed, people started teaching things contrary to scripture. Arminian theology stood side by side with Calvinism....and there are many more historical examples. This kind of thing will likely happen in the CRC if the CO is adopted. Has your revision committee taken this history into account? Maybe you have. Maybe you want to steer us in the direction the church did a couple hundred years ago. I am sure you are aware too, that Abraham Kuyper led a movement away from this trend. We trace our history to the doleantie.
Are we not seeing a repeat of Gresham Machen’s battle? It seems like it from posts I have read from many pastor’s blogs such as John Suk.
When I signed the FoS, I was proud. It was a moment where I felt connected with our great heritage and with Godly people who have gone before us. It made me proud I was part of this denomination. It gave me courage to teach and defend the Gospel.
I agree with Chad, the FoS is not broken. What is broken is our church compromising the truth. Chad's warnings ring true.
Kevin De Young makes an excellent point in his book Why We Love the Church: “My observation is that as people grow tired of hearing about the atonement, salvation, the cross, and the afterlife, they grow tired of the church. Because the more that sin and redemption recede into the background…the more the church becomes just one among several options for making a difference in the world” (page 51).
The FoS and our strong confessional heritage is what helps us stay in the Word and thus enables us to be relevant to this world. Without the FoS and being a confessional church, we lose our relevance.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
James Dekker writes, "They recommended a few change in diction without seriously changing the tone or content of the proposed Covenant."
How can you call the addition of "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend" a few changes in diction? It changed the whole document!
The first two versions of the CO essentially destroyed any notion of having doctrinal standards. The advisory committee saved the day. We still have doctrinal standards because of the work of the advisory committee.
The reason why the vote was unanimous is because of the changes the advisory committee made.
Posted in: It Doesn't Have to be a Big Thing to be a Big Deal
This article was awesome. I hope this gets in the hands of congregation members. I have talked to many pastors who have had times of weeping because all they hear is criticism. Some pastors go through long spells of no appreciation shown. Unfortuantely, many pators are "expendable" to them--if they don't like somethign, they can be run out of town and treated like garbage.
Here are some stats that Thabiti Anyabwile cites from The Schaeffer Institute in an article he writes called "Don't Make Your Pastor a Statistic." http://www.9marks.org/blog/dont-make-your-pastor-statistic I hope the stats are better for our denomination.
Health and Well-Being
they could, but have no other way of making a living.
Marriage and Family
Church Relationships
Longevity