I am a CRC commissioned pastor who teaches at Mukhanyo Theological College in South Africa. The list of quotes, yes, does include 2 quotes from overtures. The quotes were to sharpen the theological acumen of the students, just as I could have used a quote from a billboard that I saw today, which said "Jesus Loves You---*no terms and conditions apply." We would apply the same questions---ie. presuppositions, partial truths, etc to that quote, as to the Synodical quotes. Since these were class discussion questions---and I should have been more explicit as to the exact nature of where the list was used---they were not footnoted as I would do in any of the articles that you can see that I write either here on the network, or an academia edu.
Hope that helps. What is your theological take on the two overture quotes? Good, bad, or indifferent? Hope to hear from you.
Your additional item is a challenging statement. You might or might not be aware that I have lived and worked for almost half of my adult life in contexts other than North America. Doing so has taught me a few things, namely:
a. North American evangelicalism is certainly not the center of global Christianity. The fact of the matter, it is likely somewhere in Niger, Africa.
b. Having lived in Egypt for three years has given me more appreciation for Church History than I ever had before. What these churches believe has frequently come through the crucible of persecution. Additionally, churches from the global south are very much less prone to be carried downstream on the waves of the spirit of the age. It is a fool's errand not to respect the wisdom of our "older brother churches". Witness some what is going on in the Anglican Communion and the input from the global south.
c. The global and historical church has had a lot of time and experience to hammer out what it believes and why.
In the main, I think they have it mostly right, especially when one region challenges other regions. Are you aware that when I let a group of North American churches know that the church in Egypt had begun to pray and fast that they would not compromise in light of the US Senate decision to allow same-sex marriage, I was taken to task for delivering such news? Imagine the hubris of these North American churches who despised the genuine care of their --again---older brother.
As much as it seems like you are advocating for epistemic humility---please tell me if I am putting words in your mouth--there is a downside to that, namely that one can become agnostic of anything.
I read through your article and the subsequent comments. It appears to me that three things are going on:
a. You want to facilitate voices that would otherwise not be heard.
b. You want to set a tone for the Network and protect some people from offense.
c. You want to prevent some things from being published.
All of these are laudable on their own, but when combined behind a certain philosophical stance, they can form something of a monster. It seems that this is being objected to.
For example, I submitted an article for father's day. I think everything was OK with the censorship committee, until I made reference to a delicate subject, namely the prevalence of fatherlessness in a certain community. Then, very likely, the article was tossed.
Kristen and Mark, you evidently need the wisdom of Solomon to moderate, yet I would ask the following questions:
a. Might it be patronizing to think that a certain group of people on this planet are so delicate that they cannot withstand a challenge?
b. In the theories of intersectionality, the more intersections of victimization that one has, the more right they have to speak. Is it possible that some of your own statements would indicate that you have espoused the victimhood business that goes with intersectionality? That is to say, this becomes the grid through which articles are posted or not posted.
c. As much as I applaud "a" and "b" and "c" in proper perspective with proper controls, even extending to the presuppositions of the moderators, is it possible that something draconian is being advocated under the rubric of setting a nice tone? Who gives the moderators these powers? I see you say that "I will...." a number of times. Could it be that some of the comments reflect a sentiment that Moses faced when asked, "who made you judge...?"
As an author who has frequently contributed to the Network, there is much to applaud about it as a vehicle for disseminating information.
Yet, as an author who has also had a recent post 'taken down' I do wonder if all is as shining and bright as is sketched out above. I wonder if the Community Guidelines are such that they permit a person or a panel to remove posts that might provide other perspectives, critically [and I use that in an academic sense of a fair and just treatment of an issue] examine even trends within the CRCNA, and even do the same with some current news.
For example:
a. Could an article such as one that recently appeared on the blog Reformed Every Day which lamented what the author termed as 'breaking covenant' by the leadership of Netland CRC with their installation of a deacon living in a same-sex marriage be allowed?
b. Could an article entitled "Not White Fragility: Mutual Responsibility" by George Yancey a bivocational pastor who has touched on many of the weaknesses of an almost hallowed book be allowed?
c. Could an article critiquing Critical Race Theory be allowed? Could an article examining what the author sees as a confusion between systematic racism and systemic racism be allowed?
All of this material is out there and it is my view that the readers of the Network would benefit from wider perspectives. This could prevent a level of cynicism that has developed and might do something to avoid the charge [addressed to a degree above] that the Network more strongly features one angle than another.
To answer your challenge, perhaps I could picture the situation in a different way. Imagine that you had an ancestor named King Gelwicks. He was a model king, kind, compassionate, generous, just and a protector of his subjects. All of your family from the time he reigned talked about his exploits and derived a sense of identity from having such an honored ancestor.
Now imagine that someone named John Span came along and took on the name Gelwicks in order to gain some of this honor. He told everyone that if King Gelwicks was good, he was even better. In fact this Span person called himself Emperor Gelwicks. He established a huge following, but members of the original Gelwicks family said that he had hijacked their family name, their family history, and their family honor.
My question to you. Should the Gelwicks family care in the least about the chain of events?
If they protested, should they be called "unfairly unbalanced", "lacking in objectivity" and "embarrasing?"
I am using "spiritual bondage" in a negative sense in the quote above. That is to say, Duries's book suggests a bondage of demonic origin. This has nothing to do with being bondslaves of the Lord Jesus Christ who simultaneously enjoy the "glorious liberty of the children of God."
Here is the citation. I contacted Dr. Greenlee, but he no longer has the document that he cited.
Ken Wycherley, Evangelism and discipling (London: EUROM, Evangelical Missions Alliance, 1991) as cited by David H. Greenlee, “Christian conversion from Islam: Social, cultural, communication, and supernatural factors in the process of conversion and faithful church participation” (PhD diss., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1996), 26.
Blessings in Christ, and any pertinent research that you acquire would be appreciated as well.
If I might, I would take the Areopagus address in Acts 17 as an example:
a. As much as the apostle Paul was incensed at the idolatry of the Athenians, he still addressed them respectfully as "men of Athens."
b. He did not return the insult when they called him a gutter-sparrow, or in modern language, 'a bird-brain.'
c. He told them that he had made "careful observations on the objects of their worship" or that he had taken the time to really understand what made them tick. This is evident by his observation about the altar to "an unknown God" and his knowledge of Greek poets---even though he used them to undercut their religiosity.
d. He used a very wise tactic of telling them that they were "highly religious/devout" which is a word that can also mean "stupidly superstitious." He did not come across immediately as 'in their face' but would actually show them that the second meaning applied to them.
e. As much as he pointed out their altar to 'an' unknown God it was to confront their wild-card theology that said that all gods---known or unknown--had to be appeased.
f. He took a personal chance---knowing that Socrates had been judged and condemned at the same place--to proclaim to these supposedly smart people, that they really were quite ignorant.
He seems to do this as a diplomat and gentleman and uses the word "us" just like he did at Lystra in Acts 14.
g. He took another personal risk when he told them--at a location full of temples--that God doesn't live in temples, and that unlike Greek gods he is not dependent on humans.
h. Through his 3-point sermon, he moved from creation, providence to resurrection and future judgment--i.e. he packaged the material for a non-Jewish audience, but still used the essence of the Gospel to bring his audience to a call to repentance in light of the impending threat of judgment.
After all of this, we read that some scoffed, some believed, and some wanted to know more. I believe that Paul anticipated these three responses and yet did not shirk from the task.
I pray that the collaboration that Seeds of Hope is promoting will serve as an antidote to the absolute abuse of Palestinian children as shown by Palestinian Media Watch which monitors original language releases by Fatah and Hamas. See this page among many. http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=844
If there are in injustices in this whole mix, then why is this not being addressed in the overture?
Thank you for your collective responses. If I may, I think they can be grouped into a few categories:
a. An awareness that not all is well in that part of the world. Martin Vegt would have his readers believe that most or all of this is due to abuse of Israeli power. Others are less sure of that. I would tend to agree with the latter. The Palestinian Media Watch [https://www.palwatch.org/]group wrote a book examining the statements made for Western consumption by Palestinians and those made mostly in Arabic for local consumption. The book, Deception: Betraying the Peace Process copiously documents the posture of Palestinians as innocent victims when targeting Western audiences, and stating its jihadist agenda of driving every Jewish person into the sea in its Arabic media presentations. Thus a highly effective propaganda machine is at work. I believe it would behoove Synodical delegates to be aware of this dynamic.
b. Concerns that the CRCNA might be swayed to jump on to a "hot-button" topic with or without adequate background information. A few authors spoke to this. What makes these considerations complicated is the fact that Christians are called to seek justice, yet the open question remains---and which the delegates will likely deliberate upon--- is whether it is necessarily the CRCNA's task to have official involvement here.
c. Comparisons to apartheid, and Nazism were made as a justification for CRCNA involvement. One must wonder, however, if it is possible that delegates could be emotionally manipulated either by appeals to Western guilt, racism and the like, and cause them to forget that multiple theologies are at play in this situation. On the other hand, an appeal to being known, individually or collectively as social justice warriors, taking the moral high ground, in shining armor, has a certain magnetism to it.
d. An assumption (rightly or wrongly) is made that Palestinians are necessarily a certain ethnicity. In an interview given by PLO executive committee member, Zahir Muhsein in March 31, 1977 with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
James Dorsey, “Wij zijn alleen Palestijn om politieke redden,” Trouw, March 31, 1977. https://brabosh.com/2016/02/18/pqpct-bbo/
Nick, my intention was not to impugn ill motives, but to highlight the fact that motives are a powerful driver of decisions. A friend suggested that I look into the area of "virtue-signaling" as he thought this might be at play here. [Below are three links for some background.] Long story short, individuals or groups of persons signal to other individuals or groups that somehow they are more virtuous by the positions they adopt. For example, if my church adopts Sabeel's "HP Free Church" stance, then it will likely see itself as more virtuous than those who don't.
Theologically, one must ask, why the need to get affirmation from others, Christian or not, as indicating a level of virtue? Could the photo of Mamoud Abbas with a CRC delegation be a virtue-signaling exercise? That is to say, it could be stating "look at us, and with whom we have our photo taken." A subtext might also read---as Doug pointed out below, in response to Martin---if you don't agree with this photo and all that it stands for, then you are less than virtuous.
Could it be that with this issue the CRCNA might be on a virtue-signaling quest? How would we know? What would it look like? Might it be a rather un-Reformed manifestation of works righteousness? Is the Network the best venue to ask these kind of delicate questions?
Posted in: Hermeneutics 101
Hello Benjamin:
I am a CRC commissioned pastor who teaches at Mukhanyo Theological College in South Africa. The list of quotes, yes, does include 2 quotes from overtures. The quotes were to sharpen the theological acumen of the students, just as I could have used a quote from a billboard that I saw today, which said "Jesus Loves You---*no terms and conditions apply." We would apply the same questions---ie. presuppositions, partial truths, etc to that quote, as to the Synodical quotes. Since these were class discussion questions---and I should have been more explicit as to the exact nature of where the list was used---they were not footnoted as I would do in any of the articles that you can see that I write either here on the network, or an academia edu.
Hope that helps. What is your theological take on the two overture quotes? Good, bad, or indifferent? Hope to hear from you.
Posted in: Hermeneutics 101
Your additional item is a challenging statement. You might or might not be aware that I have lived and worked for almost half of my adult life in contexts other than North America. Doing so has taught me a few things, namely:
a. North American evangelicalism is certainly not the center of global Christianity. The fact of the matter, it is likely somewhere in Niger, Africa.
b. Having lived in Egypt for three years has given me more appreciation for Church History than I ever had before. What these churches believe has frequently come through the crucible of persecution. Additionally, churches from the global south are very much less prone to be carried downstream on the waves of the spirit of the age. It is a fool's errand not to respect the wisdom of our "older brother churches". Witness some what is going on in the Anglican Communion and the input from the global south.
c. The global and historical church has had a lot of time and experience to hammer out what it believes and why.
In the main, I think they have it mostly right, especially when one region challenges other regions. Are you aware that when I let a group of North American churches know that the church in Egypt had begun to pray and fast that they would not compromise in light of the US Senate decision to allow same-sex marriage, I was taken to task for delivering such news? Imagine the hubris of these North American churches who despised the genuine care of their --again---older brother.
As much as it seems like you are advocating for epistemic humility---please tell me if I am putting words in your mouth--there is a downside to that, namely that one can become agnostic of anything.
Posted in: "Censorship" on The Network
Good day Kristen and company.
I read through your article and the subsequent comments. It appears to me that three things are going on:
a. You want to facilitate voices that would otherwise not be heard.
b. You want to set a tone for the Network and protect some people from offense.
c. You want to prevent some things from being published.
All of these are laudable on their own, but when combined behind a certain philosophical stance, they can form something of a monster. It seems that this is being objected to.
For example, I submitted an article for father's day. I think everything was OK with the censorship committee, until I made reference to a delicate subject, namely the prevalence of fatherlessness in a certain community. Then, very likely, the article was tossed.
Kristen and Mark, you evidently need the wisdom of Solomon to moderate, yet I would ask the following questions:
a. Might it be patronizing to think that a certain group of people on this planet are so delicate that they cannot withstand a challenge?
b. In the theories of intersectionality, the more intersections of victimization that one has, the more right they have to speak. Is it possible that some of your own statements would indicate that you have espoused the victimhood business that goes with intersectionality? That is to say, this becomes the grid through which articles are posted or not posted.
c. As much as I applaud "a" and "b" and "c" in proper perspective with proper controls, even extending to the presuppositions of the moderators, is it possible that something draconian is being advocated under the rubric of setting a nice tone? Who gives the moderators these powers? I see you say that "I will...." a number of times. Could it be that some of the comments reflect a sentiment that Moses faced when asked, "who made you judge...?"
Thanks for engaging
John Span
Posted in: Debunking 5 Myths About The Network
Thanks for posting this article Staci:
As an author who has frequently contributed to the Network, there is much to applaud about it as a vehicle for disseminating information.
Yet, as an author who has also had a recent post 'taken down' I do wonder if all is as shining and bright as is sketched out above. I wonder if the Community Guidelines are such that they permit a person or a panel to remove posts that might provide other perspectives, critically [and I use that in an academic sense of a fair and just treatment of an issue] examine even trends within the CRCNA, and even do the same with some current news.
For example:
a. Could an article such as one that recently appeared on the blog Reformed Every Day which lamented what the author termed as 'breaking covenant' by the leadership of Netland CRC with their installation of a deacon living in a same-sex marriage be allowed?
b. Could an article entitled "Not White Fragility: Mutual Responsibility" by George Yancey a bivocational pastor who has touched on many of the weaknesses of an almost hallowed book be allowed?
c. Could an article critiquing Critical Race Theory be allowed? Could an article examining what the author sees as a confusion between systematic racism and systemic racism be allowed?
All of this material is out there and it is my view that the readers of the Network would benefit from wider perspectives. This could prevent a level of cynicism that has developed and might do something to avoid the charge [addressed to a degree above] that the Network more strongly features one angle than another.
Thanks
Rev. Dr. John Span
Posted in: Who Is Muhammad in Islam? Prophet, Priest, or King?
Thanks for engaging, Roger.
To answer your challenge, perhaps I could picture the situation in a different way. Imagine that you had an ancestor named King Gelwicks. He was a model king, kind, compassionate, generous, just and a protector of his subjects. All of your family from the time he reigned talked about his exploits and derived a sense of identity from having such an honored ancestor.
Now imagine that someone named John Span came along and took on the name Gelwicks in order to gain some of this honor. He told everyone that if King Gelwicks was good, he was even better. In fact this Span person called himself Emperor Gelwicks. He established a huge following, but members of the original Gelwicks family said that he had hijacked their family name, their family history, and their family honor.
My question to you. Should the Gelwicks family care in the least about the chain of events?
If they protested, should they be called "unfairly unbalanced", "lacking in objectivity" and "embarrasing?"
JS
Posted in: "A Dozen Bad Ideas for the 21st Century"
Thanks Roger:
I am using "spiritual bondage" in a negative sense in the quote above. That is to say, Duries's book suggests a bondage of demonic origin. This has nothing to do with being bondslaves of the Lord Jesus Christ who simultaneously enjoy the "glorious liberty of the children of God."
Blessings
JS
Posted in: Three Words Affecting the Church in the New Decade
Thanks Martin:
Had never thought of the concept of "virtue shaming." Very illustrative.
Blessings
John
PS. Some people are also using the term "Cultural Marxism" to describe the new type of class struggle that is behind intersectionality.
Posted in: Reversion: Why Do ‘Christian Converts’ From Islam Return to Their Old Religion?
Greetings:
Here is the citation. I contacted Dr. Greenlee, but he no longer has the document that he cited.
Ken Wycherley, Evangelism and discipling (London: EUROM, Evangelical Missions Alliance, 1991) as cited by David H. Greenlee, “Christian conversion from Islam: Social, cultural, communication, and supernatural factors in the process of conversion and faithful church participation” (PhD diss., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, 1996), 26.
Blessings in Christ, and any pertinent research that you acquire would be appreciated as well.
Dr. John Span
Posted in: 90% Retention Rate or 90% Attrition Rate? Doctrine Matters
Thanks Roger:
If I might, I would take the Areopagus address in Acts 17 as an example:
a. As much as the apostle Paul was incensed at the idolatry of the Athenians, he still addressed them respectfully as "men of Athens."
b. He did not return the insult when they called him a gutter-sparrow, or in modern language, 'a bird-brain.'
c. He told them that he had made "careful observations on the objects of their worship" or that he had taken the time to really understand what made them tick. This is evident by his observation about the altar to "an unknown God" and his knowledge of Greek poets---even though he used them to undercut their religiosity.
d. He used a very wise tactic of telling them that they were "highly religious/devout" which is a word that can also mean "stupidly superstitious." He did not come across immediately as 'in their face' but would actually show them that the second meaning applied to them.
e. As much as he pointed out their altar to 'an' unknown God it was to confront their wild-card theology that said that all gods---known or unknown--had to be appeased.
f. He took a personal chance---knowing that Socrates had been judged and condemned at the same place--to proclaim to these supposedly smart people, that they really were quite ignorant.
He seems to do this as a diplomat and gentleman and uses the word "us" just like he did at Lystra in Acts 14.
g. He took another personal risk when he told them--at a location full of temples--that God doesn't live in temples, and that unlike Greek gods he is not dependent on humans.
h. Through his 3-point sermon, he moved from creation, providence to resurrection and future judgment--i.e. he packaged the material for a non-Jewish audience, but still used the essence of the Gospel to bring his audience to a call to repentance in light of the impending threat of judgment.
After all of this, we read that some scoffed, some believed, and some wanted to know more. I believe that Paul anticipated these three responses and yet did not shirk from the task.
Hope that helps
John
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Thanks Bev. Beautiful music.
I pray that the collaboration that Seeds of Hope is promoting will serve as an antidote to the absolute abuse of Palestinian children as shown by Palestinian Media Watch which monitors original language releases by Fatah and Hamas. See this page among many. http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=844
If there are in injustices in this whole mix, then why is this not being addressed in the overture?
Shalom, Salaam
John
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Greetings all:
Thank you for your collective responses. If I may, I think they can be grouped into a few categories:
a. An awareness that not all is well in that part of the world. Martin Vegt would have his readers believe that most or all of this is due to abuse of Israeli power. Others are less sure of that. I would tend to agree with the latter. The Palestinian Media Watch [https://www.palwatch.org/]group wrote a book examining the statements made for Western consumption by Palestinians and those made mostly in Arabic for local consumption. The book, Deception: Betraying the Peace Process copiously documents the posture of Palestinians as innocent victims when targeting Western audiences, and stating its jihadist agenda of driving every Jewish person into the sea in its Arabic media presentations. Thus a highly effective propaganda machine is at work. I believe it would behoove Synodical delegates to be aware of this dynamic.
b. Concerns that the CRCNA might be swayed to jump on to a "hot-button" topic with or without adequate background information. A few authors spoke to this. What makes these considerations complicated is the fact that Christians are called to seek justice, yet the open question remains---and which the delegates will likely deliberate upon--- is whether it is necessarily the CRCNA's task to have official involvement here.
c. Comparisons to apartheid, and Nazism were made as a justification for CRCNA involvement. One must wonder, however, if it is possible that delegates could be emotionally manipulated either by appeals to Western guilt, racism and the like, and cause them to forget that multiple theologies are at play in this situation. On the other hand, an appeal to being known, individually or collectively as social justice warriors, taking the moral high ground, in shining armor, has a certain magnetism to it.
d. An assumption (rightly or wrongly) is made that Palestinians are necessarily a certain ethnicity. In an interview given by PLO executive committee member, Zahir Muhsein in March 31, 1977 with the Dutch newspaper Trouw he stated:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
James Dorsey, “Wij zijn alleen Palestijn om politieke redden,” Trouw, March 31, 1977. https://brabosh.com/2016/02/18/pqpct-bbo/
May God give great wisdom to the delegates.
Shalom Salaam
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Nick, my intention was not to impugn ill motives, but to highlight the fact that motives are a powerful driver of decisions. A friend suggested that I look into the area of "virtue-signaling" as he thought this might be at play here. [Below are three links for some background.] Long story short, individuals or groups of persons signal to other individuals or groups that somehow they are more virtuous by the positions they adopt. For example, if my church adopts Sabeel's "HP Free Church" stance, then it will likely see itself as more virtuous than those who don't.
Theologically, one must ask, why the need to get affirmation from others, Christian or not, as indicating a level of virtue? Could the photo of Mamoud Abbas with a CRC delegation be a virtue-signaling exercise? That is to say, it could be stating "look at us, and with whom we have our photo taken." A subtext might also read---as Doug pointed out below, in response to Martin---if you don't agree with this photo and all that it stands for, then you are less than virtuous.
Could it be that with this issue the CRCNA might be on a virtue-signaling quest? How would we know? What would it look like? Might it be a rather un-Reformed manifestation of works righteousness? Is the Network the best venue to ask these kind of delicate questions?
Shalom Salaam
John
https://spectator.org/the-power-and-prevalence-of-virtue-signaling/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/12/24/virtue-signaling-and-other-inane-platitudes/YrJRcvxYMofMcCfgORUcFO/story.html
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Virtue%20Signalling