I've often thought that, as children, learning the flood account in Sunday School, we were never taught about God's grief. We learned about God's anger - though the account says God grieved. It seems that we also were never taught that, after the flood, human hearts had not changed. It was not true that the 'good guys' were delivered. After the flood, the account says, 'Our thoughts were still evil all the time.'
It's God's heart that was changed by the flood. God's heart moved God from "grieving" to God saying "never again." God's heart said 'I'll take the punishment' humans deserve and invite them to live under my promise.
I appreciate your thoughts regarding my reflection on the flood. Your response reminded me that believing Christians - perhaps Calvinists more than others - have spent a lot of time - and perhaps wasted a lot of time - attempting to discern how God - who lives outside of time - acts in relation to human time. I vaguely remember the 'infrlapsarian' and 'supralapsarian' lecture from seminary.
Did God have a change of mind after the Golden Calf episode - first saying "I will not go with these people or I would wipe them out" but later saying: "I will go with them." Did the people's act of humbling themselves before God in light of their sin or did Moses' pleas on behalf of the people impact God's decision? I remember those lectures as well.
I've conclude that humans - who live bounded by time - have no option but to understand events, history and God's actions, in light of time. Perhaps that's a disadvantage.
Or perhaps it's an advantage. To understand all of God's actions on behalf of God's committed and compassionate care for God's creation invites us to recognize that God's actions are bounded only by God's character - who God is - not by time. When we - who can only minimally imagine timelessness - add time to God's actions, we often get drawn into some form of 'action and response' or 'cost and benefit' mode of thinking that - at best, makes living in fellowship with God a mechanical "you do this and I will do that" or "If you do this then I will do that" way of living; or worse makes God our servant who we can compell to act in certain ways if we do or don't do certain things.
The advantage to accepting all of God's actions as being generated outside of time is that they all flow from God's character. Consequently, I am learning to more and more trust God's character - made visible in the incarnation and life and death and resurrection and ascension and promised return of Jesus. This way of making God's self known - revealing God's character to us - was determined by this God who lives outside of time. Time is not the issue. Divine character is.
You've described a practice that our classis has allowed to fade away. I'm eager to hear stories from councils who were visited and found their visit helpful. In what ways was the visit helpful? What benefit did the council receive? It would also be great to see what format church visitors are using. Which brings up another matter. The questions asked on the back of the Classis credentials seemed to be the kinds of questions that shaped the visits. I'm not sure those questions serve as the best questions to ask a council anymore. What format might make for a healthier visit? Perhaps this is a question Henry DeMoor or one of the church polity people can help answer and engage with.
Posted in: The Genesis Flood and the Gospel Narrative
Thanks Paul.
I've often thought that, as children, learning the flood account in Sunday School, we were never taught about God's grief. We learned about God's anger - though the account says God grieved. It seems that we also were never taught that, after the flood, human hearts had not changed. It was not true that the 'good guys' were delivered. After the flood, the account says, 'Our thoughts were still evil all the time.'
It's God's heart that was changed by the flood. God's heart moved God from "grieving" to God saying "never again." God's heart said 'I'll take the punishment' humans deserve and invite them to live under my promise.
Praise God for God's compassionate heart.
John
Posted in: The Genesis Flood and the Gospel Narrative
John,
I appreciate your thoughts regarding my reflection on the flood. Your response reminded me that believing Christians - perhaps Calvinists more than others - have spent a lot of time - and perhaps wasted a lot of time - attempting to discern how God - who lives outside of time - acts in relation to human time. I vaguely remember the 'infrlapsarian' and 'supralapsarian' lecture from seminary.
Did God have a change of mind after the Golden Calf episode - first saying "I will not go with these people or I would wipe them out" but later saying: "I will go with them." Did the people's act of humbling themselves before God in light of their sin or did Moses' pleas on behalf of the people impact God's decision? I remember those lectures as well.
I've conclude that humans - who live bounded by time - have no option but to understand events, history and God's actions, in light of time. Perhaps that's a disadvantage.
Or perhaps it's an advantage. To understand all of God's actions on behalf of God's committed and compassionate care for God's creation invites us to recognize that God's actions are bounded only by God's character - who God is - not by time. When we - who can only minimally imagine timelessness - add time to God's actions, we often get drawn into some form of 'action and response' or 'cost and benefit' mode of thinking that - at best, makes living in fellowship with God a mechanical "you do this and I will do that" or "If you do this then I will do that" way of living; or worse makes God our servant who we can compell to act in certain ways if we do or don't do certain things.
The advantage to accepting all of God's actions as being generated outside of time is that they all flow from God's character. Consequently, I am learning to more and more trust God's character - made visible in the incarnation and life and death and resurrection and ascension and promised return of Jesus. This way of making God's self known - revealing God's character to us - was determined by this God who lives outside of time. Time is not the issue. Divine character is.
That perspective helps me.
Blessings,
John
Posted in: Mining for Old Gold
Thanks Karl.
You've described a practice that our classis has allowed to fade away. I'm eager to hear stories from councils who were visited and found their visit helpful. In what ways was the visit helpful? What benefit did the council receive? It would also be great to see what format church visitors are using. Which brings up another matter. The questions asked on the back of the Classis credentials seemed to be the kinds of questions that shaped the visits. I'm not sure those questions serve as the best questions to ask a council anymore. What format might make for a healthier visit? Perhaps this is a question Henry DeMoor or one of the church polity people can help answer and engage with.
John