One of my favorite passasges is II John 4 where he says in effect - I rejoice to see your children walking in the truth. One of the things that I am most thankful for is the great cloud of witnesses that I have come to know in my experiences in life. Since my father was also a minister I have lived in the shadow of the church all my life. What has frequently amazed me was the instant raport I have experienced when I discovered someone was a fellow believer. That bond of fellowship is forever. I have enjoyed many experiences with fellow beleivers. I have also shared their sorrows and even on one occasion actually wept with a brother. I have listened to believers talk about their inner pain and frustration. But most of the believers I have meet have not defined their lives primarily in terms of "spiritual" experiences. As far as I could tell, they thought about human experiences and living with fellow believers by faith and in obedience to Christ and his word. All of this is medaited by Christ and his word and Spirit.
I am sure you are aware that there is a long standing tradition that defines spiritual experience in terms of the soul's direct and immediate contact with the essence of God. When I here people say they have heard God speaking to them or they have a great sense of God's presence I suspect that they are operating out of this tradition. This tradition greatly minimizes created reality or even negates it. The soul is good, the body is bad. To become truly spiritual one must get the soul out of the body. Can you imagine that salvation is defined in terms of death.
While the tradition of pietism does not go that far it trends in that direction. I have met charismatics who were very uncomfortable with the concept of Jesus in the flesh. One thing I thought of after I post my previous comments was the sermon on the mount where Jesus warns (Matt 6:1) "Take heed that you do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." He then mentions giving alms, praying and fasting. I take this to mean that we are not to parade our religous and spiritual life before men.
Having said that, I believe that if Christ has first place in our minds and hearts and we seek to grow in his grace and knowledge that there will be some kind of difference seen in our lives. But I also beleiver that since our lives are hidden in Christ ( Col 3) that we probably can't see it in ouselves. Paul says someplace that he does not even judge himself. When Christ is revealed then we will know what our lives have really been about and what Christ has done with and in them.
When I entered the ministry in my early twenties there were seniors who told me that the older they became the more they saw their sinfulness. That certainly has been true for me. I don't see much in my life to brag about or to set before others as an example. But along side of that there seem to be a growing conviction that every thing scripture says about Christ is true. That he is the Living One, that he is risen and both Messiah (Christ) and Lord, that I belong to him and that he is the only hope that I have in life or death. But that conviction although I believe a result of the Spirit's work thorugh the Gospel, is not the gospel and I do not go around telling people how strong I think my faith is. For even though it may seem very strong in my heart and mind I have no way of evaluating it. All I know is that when I read scripture it keeps confirming what I have known all my life.
John Calvin insists that God in his naked majesty cannot be known. He can only be known through the person of the mediator. There is only mediated knowledge of God in Christ. And that knowledge comes into a real world of people in their everyday lives.
Since "spiritual experience" can be a vague concept - perhaps it might be helfpul to express your understanding of what that means to you.
"l;iving in the shadow of the church" was simply a geographical statement. I deeply apreciate the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12) but my exprience in the instituted church has been both very positive and negative. My security however, is not first of all in the "church" but in Christ himself (LD 1). All the blessings of salvation are found in him alone. Fellow beleiver can be both helpful and disappointing. I have often been amazed at the instant raport established (by Christ) when you find out a complete stranger is a fellow brother or sister. How little time we have to really get to know each other. How eager I am for the return of the risen Lord and the redemptions of our bodies ( our entire persons actually) and the renewal of all creation. Think of life in this creation with any sin in it. I have met so many interesting people along the way that I look forward to renewing those acquaintances. We will never run out of time and nothing can hurt or destroy those friendships.
Unfortunately, most beleiver have been taught and think that they are going to "heaven" forever. What is the most common understanding of "heaven". That is where souls go when bodies go into the ground. That tends to transfer in the "future heaven" Many years ago I heard one minister say "do you like to be in church (worship service). Well you better because that is what heaven is going to be like."
An interesting fact - that the OT church was never promsed a "heaven" but was promised that they would dwell in the land in peace and prosperity. The bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is God's eternal commitment to the created order and our own creatureliness. He already is the new creation that we will some day experience along with the entire creation. That is the clear NT promise. Since the NT church is in reality Israel gathering the nations into herself - we too share in all the OT promises - every promise made in the OT was fulfilled in Christ. Paul says at the end of I Thess 2, and I paraphrase - the greatest thrill of my life will be to see you standing with me in the presence of Christ.. While our lives in this time have eternal significane - the best is yet to come.
I respond by asksing how does anyone to what job they are called?
Our vocal speech is always an expressions of that inner voice that never quits talking, at least mine does not. We call it thinking. In my head I have only ever heard one voice. I have never heard an voice obviously distince from mine. I honestly can say I have never heard "voices".
Now private revelation is highly subjective. There are people who claim that God talks directly to them and usually its about decisions that have to be made - what job to take - what person to marry - what mode of transportation to take, etc.
The huge problem that I see - is that the person decides which thoughts in their heads are from God. Furthermore, God is not the only one who can influence us. Apparently devils can, I and I suspect the ministering spirits call angels can. By what standards does a person decide when God is talking? Many years ago in this general area a man killed his two young sons because God told him to do so.
The only place I hear God talking is in the bible, but since God promised to write his word in our hearts, that content of that word becomes part of the fabric of our being. That content, in one form or another, frequently enters into my thoughts. And that word is primarily concerned with faith and obedience. We may often be too concerned with what is called God's hidden will for our lives. I have no idea how to discern that. But his revealed will is very plain and clear. That ought to be our primary concern.
Also, saying God told me is the positive side of the devil made me do it. I believe that both of these are simply ways to escape our human responsibility to make choices and decisions. I do not know all the reasons why I felt I should go into the ministry. As a candidate I receive one call. As far as I knew there were no other options in the works. We were taught (rightly or wrongly) that our internal calling had to be verified by an external call from a congregation. The choice seemed quite simple. I had a viable option set before me. While believing that Christ is always active in our lives by his Holy Spirit, and asking for wisdom, I made a decision which was entirely my responsibility. I heard no strange voices or whisperings in my ear. I honestly do not know any other way of operating. I blieve that God payed us a huge compliment by not making us robots or puppets that he controls.
The thesis of the original blog was that beleivers ought to be in more intimate relationships with God so that they can tell others about their spiritual expriences as a means of leading them to Christ.
My question: Why should I want to talk about my weak, imperfect, and incomplete "spiritual" experiences (which I really have no way of evaluating) when I can talk about the perfect, powerful, complete, and saving "spiritual" experiences of the Risen, one crucified Christ. I experience the life of faith because of who he is and what he has done and is doing.
While scripture gives a great deal of info about the life of faith it is very clear that the content of the gospel that is God's power unto salvation is the "spiritual" experiences of Jesus of Nazareth. I use that name because the apostles do in the book of Acts. In Acts 22:8 when Paul asks - who are you Lord, Jesus responds, " I am Jesus of Nazareth".
It appears to me that most believers think of Jesus primarily in terms of his deity. Resurrection, however, is not a catagory that applies to deity. Our flesh was nailed to the cross. Our flesh, in the person of Jesus , came out of the grave. At the Lord's Supper we don't talking about breathing in "spirit" but we talk in very fleshly language about eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. As man he earned our salvatiion and is now the glorified man, the first fruits of all believer who shall be raised by him.
My words about my life are not "gospel". My words about Jesus life ARE "gospel" for it is not my personal story but the personal story of Jesus himself.
The disciples were not sent out into the world to talk about their life's experiences but about His.
Unfortunately, it is all too easy to want to place ourselves at the center and talk about ourselves. How hard it is to listen.
But as Paul says, and I paraphrase (II Cor. 4:5 - We preach not our own spiritual experiences but we preach the spiritual experiences of Jesus as Lord.
This is the second article in a month (See Greg Selmon's "Today's Compelling Story of Grace" 10-18-12) that suggest the motivation for witness is found in the spiritual superiority of the individual believer. Critical to witness is the believer's dynamic experiences of grace, fresh each day, and their personal passion for God. What I hear being said is that we must be like the pharisee in the front of the temple who thanks God that he is not like other men, that he has all these fantastic spiritual experiences, that he is not like the sinner in the back of the room. We must have something to show and tell about ourselves (called sharing Christ), when actually it is simply talking about and possibly even boasting about ourselves.
Probably the most fantastic spiritual experience in this life would be to be raised from the dead. The rich man in Hades pleads with father Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers arguing that the bible (Moses and the Prophets) is not sufficient - they need to see something. The answer comes back that is they do not believe the bible neither will they believe if someone rises from the dead.
Genuine spiritual growth results in a growing realization that all the benefits and blessings of salvation are not found in self but in the person of the bodily risen Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God, so say the apostles. Now pershaps I am spiritually regressing but the older I have become the more if feel like the "sinner" in the back of the temple and the man who buried his one talent. So according to your thesis I would have no impetus for witnessing. While love for God is the highest commandment it is not the most important thing in this life. We are not saved by our love but by our faith, which is a gift of God. By that gift we become increasingly convinced of the historical facts and present reality of the bodily risen Jesus. I am not interested in telling others about my fantastical "grace experiences" because I have none to tell about. But there seems to be a great desire and passion to talk about the person of Christ and his experiences, that he is risen and he is Messiah and Lord. That is the essence of the biblcal witness and the heart of the gospel.
Scripture is very clear that we are not to boast about ourselves, but only about Christ himself. That can be done only by using the truth and facts of the scriptures as they point to Christ. He himself makes this point in Luke 24 both on the way to Emmaus and to his disciples. Paul says in II Cor. 4 that we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord.
In Acts 23-26 Paul summarizes this his entire gospel in terms of the hope of Israel - the resurrection of the body. In acts 2-4 the heart of the apostolic witness becomes plain. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God. You killied him. God raised him from the dead and made him MNessiah and Lord and in him is the forgiveness of sins. See also Acts 13. In Acts 17 Paul asserts that God has appointed a man by which he will judge the world and has demonstrated this by raising Jesus from the dead.
I would suggest that the lack of motivation comes from the fact that the church has almost comletely ignored the fact and significance of the bodily resurrection of the Man Jesus ( yes I affirm his full deity). All my life I have heard that my "gratitude" is the driving force for living a life of faith - while scripture (even the Heidelberg Catechism) locates the motivation factor in the renewing work of the Risen Jesus by his Holy Spirit after his image. Paul says - I count all my religious accomplishments as garbage for the sake of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. I want to know Christ, the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering. We hardly ever hear about the return of Christ and when it is mentioned we are told that we are going to spend eternity in heaven even though scripture, both Old and New, makes clear we will spend eternity in a renewed created order with our complete persons - spirit, soul and body make new, whole and imperishable. I don't know many beleivers who are enthused about our glorious future.
Christ is viewed primarily as "a spirit being" and as "God". It seems that his glorified humanity, the very same humanity in which he was sin's curse on the cross, has evaproated into the divine all. Very Platonic and new age. The fact of the matter is that there is a man on God's throne. By man came death - by man came the resurreciton of the dead. If the dead cannot be raised, then Jesus is still dead and we are fools to trust a dead man. The apostles were not passionate about thier own spiritual expereinces - they were passionate about the reality of the bodily risen Lord and the fullness of present blessings found in him as well as the tremendous, sure and living hope that he is.
I would also suggest that Piper has things backwords. He is essentially saying that we are nothing but mirrors reflecting God's love back to himself. I don't matter, you don't matter - all that matters is God. Again this strikes me as very new age like. While we may not lose our indiduality all that matters is the flow of love to God as though he were a giant vacuum cleaner or black hole sucking all the energy out of the very things he has made. He needs nothing from us for he is full and complete in himself. God so loved the world that he gave. Ephesians 2:7 states the purpose of saving us - so that God forever and ever can show us the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. He wil continually unfold and reveal himself to us forever in a renewed created order without sin. What a great message to tell - not about my experiences - but about who he is.
I believe that the crc has never developed a biblical reformed approach to evangelism and witnessing. There are two aspects to this discussion. What does it mean to "witness" and what is the motivation for doing so. If I see an auto accident and am called in to court to testify, the court is not interested in my emotional reaction to the experience or even my speculation about the accident. What the court wants to know is what I saw. What actually happend, not in me, but outside of me, out on the corner of Fifth and Main. Or if I am campaigning for someone else running for office, my job is to encourage people to vote for the candidate. I should not be talking about my qualifications for being a campaigner, but the qualifications of the candidate.
In John 5:39-40 Jesus makes clear that the scriptures bear witness to him and that the life was in him. Jesus sent the apostles out to bear witness to himself. Where in the gospels do the authors talk about their spiritual experiences. Where in Acts does Luke talk about himself. They are always concerned to present the facts about who the man Jesus is and what God has done and is doing in and through him. Three times in Acts Paul gives an account of his conversion but where is the description of his emotional, spiritual reaction. Those accounts are more about the risen Jesus than Paul. As Paul says in II Cor 4 - we preach not ourselves - but we preach Jesus as Lord.
In II Cor. 11 Paul is talking about false preacher/prophets and in vs 18 he shas that many glory after the flesh and that he will be foolish enough to do so also. So he continues to talk about his qualifications and experiences. In vs. 21 he says I speak in foolishness and in vs 23 he says I speak besides myself. He is basically saying I am out of my mind to talk like this. In II Cor 12:10 he talks about taking pleasure in his weaknesses, etc - for when I am weak - then I am strong because Christ's grace is sufficient.
My understanding of witnessing is to always point to the person and experiences of the risen man Jesus of Nazareth in whom dwells the fulness of the godhead bodily. In his body he bore our sin and through his blood we are forgiven. Furthermore, "resurrection" which is at the heart of the apostolic message does not apply to deity but only to the humanity of Jesus. This is critical for understanding the gospel.
Now what motivates me to witness. Is it because I am so in love with God, or so filled with joy, or I have fresh new wonderfful grace experiences every day. These may all be present. Certainly all the fruits of the Spirit should be involved in our lives to one degree or the other. But the primary motive is not experience but faith. We do not live by sight. We live by faith. And while this faith is a gift of the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit, it is my faith and a faith, with all its ups and downs, that has been encouraged and strengthed throughout my life. I can remember learning "Jesus Lov es Me" at the age of 3-1/2. Obviously any faith at that point was very simple. There never has been time in my life when I did not have some knowledge of Christ. There is within me a deep seated faith conviction ( which I cannot in any way prove) that the once crucified, but now risen and ever living Jesus of Nazareth is the only Man I can trust, the only man throuigh whom I can access the Father, the only man who can forgive and justify, the only one who has solved the problem of death and our living hope promising that someday we will be freed from death. We groan waiting for our adoption the redemption of our bodies and when we see him our bodies will be made like his body. Creation too waits for our adoption when it will be freed from the curse of sin. I have learned all this from the Bible.
When I thought witnessing was telling others about my wonderful grace experiences - I could not witness. But when I learned from scripture that witnessing was telling others about what God has done in Christ and who he is today as the risen Lord and the benefits and blessings to be found in him - witnessing became easy and I almost dare say a joy. Why is this present in my life? There is only one reason. Because, in the midst of all my failures and weakness, yes even sins, the risen Lord Jesus empowers and enables by his Holy Spirit, through the gospel. The great motivation comes not from us, but from him. I think that the church, as it becomes increasingly enamoured with "spiritual experience" s forgetting about the risen Jesus who always works in us.
There is only one way that I talk about myself when I witness. I point out that sin is self-exaltation and that when I learned that Christ was my righteousness, my self worth, my self esteem - then I learned that I no longer had to be important. I could be more free to esteem others better than myself. But that has nothing to do with any kind of spiritual superiority on my part but only with the excellency and worth of the Risen Jesus. He is the living one. He was dead once but is now alive forever.
The danger for the church is that it always wants to return to the flesh and become obsessed with its own experiences. The apostles had one passion - and that was to proclaim the name of Jesus and tell the world that this risen man was Messiah and Lord, that he was in charge of the world and the church and that he was returning someday to destroy, not creation nor our bodies, but all sin and evil making all things new.
Witnessing is point to Christ.
Motivation for witness comes from the Holy Spirit and the faith conviction that Jesus is Lord and the only way to the Father.
And with the eagerness of the NT believers, we pray "Lord, Jesus, come quickly."
"I was thinking today of how often believers in Christ do not present a compelling story of God's powerful work in their lives. I know that years ago, 1988 to be exact, God entered into my life in dramatic and powerful ways. He transformed me by His grace. He brought me to faith, and I could not help but declare His presence and truth to all who would listen." The Risen Lord Jesus is constantly working in our lives usually in ordinary ways but sometimes in more spectacular forms. But the quote above troubles me because I have no spectacluar story to tell. Furthermore, at my age, as many seniors told me long ago, I see my own sins and failures far more clearly than half a century ago. But my biggest problem is that what is described is basically talking about one'self and one's personal experiences. While the Apostle Paul did on three occasions describe his confrontation by the risen Lord, his gospel was not about himself but about the objective reality of the bodily risen Lord Jesus. This is clealry stated in II Cor. 4 where he says that we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord..... Jesus called the apostles to talk about themselves but about him and this they consistenly did. My personal life's story is not the gospel and therefore it is not God's power unto salvation. The gospel is always about the one who said in Rev. 1 that he was the "Living One" and that he was dead, but is alive forever more. The concsistent essence and emphasis of the apostolic gospel message was always that the man who died on the cross was raised by God and that man by the resurrection was made Messiah and Lord and in him is the forgiveness of sins. David's son is on God's throne with all power and authority. Read Acts 2, 13, Eph. 1 and Col. 1. Peter puts in clearly in II Peter 1:12 "Wherefore I shall be ready always to put you in rememberance of these things, though ye know them, and are established in the truth which is with you." What things? II Peter 1:8 "...the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
The biblical witness is always about the bodily riisen Jesus of Nazareth and the fulness and wonder of the salvation accomplished in and hrough the expereiences of the incarnate word. My story is insignificant compared to his. My story will impress no one and very quickly becomes old and boring, in large part because the essence of sin is self-exaltation and each is obsessed with his or her own story. It is the old, old story which is ever new because he is bodily risen with all power for the sake of the the church. When I thought that I had to tell my story I found it next to impossible to witness. When I learned I didn't need to tell others what a marvelous Christian I was, and that the liviing Lord Jesus in the full glory of his risen humanity is the Father's agent of sovereignty and grace was at the heart of the gospel - witnessing because a whole different matter. His story never grows old. How easy it is to simply tell others about who he is - his death and resurrection and that in him are to be found all spiritual blessings and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He is the fulfillment of all God's promises.
It is not modern technique nor media but the risen Christ himself, the living Word which God has always spoken and continues to speak who by the power of his resurrection through the Holy Spirit uses our weak and feeble words of witness and preaching to actually reach into hearts and lives and bring them to faith and salvation.
Read the book of Acts. Pay careful attention to what was written to the NT church. It is all about the risen once crucified Jesus who is the only way to the Father. John Calvin was extremely Christo-centric. He consistenlty emphasized that the only way to the Father was throuth the "flesh" of Jesus born of Mary - through the Man Jesus to God the Father. Of course this can be possible is because this Jesus in his one person is also the eternal Son and living Word.
He is the One the church really needs to be talking about from the pulpit and to whomever the Lord brings across our paths. This is the consistent apostilic practice and biblical pattern. In Romans 15:5 Paul is concerned that "we be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus: that with one accord you may with one mouth gorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Thanks for the further comment. I am well aware that faith unites with Christ. Furthermore, as far as I can tell the theme of the Heidelberg Catechism is "Christ by his Holy Spirit" (See QA76). In John 6 Jesus makes clear that the work the Father wants from us is "to believe in the one that he sent". I have no problem trying to explain to others what it means that "Christ is my righteousness" or he is my self-worth, my self-esteem. I do that because the essence of sin is self-exaltation which always prompts me to think that I am better than others. This is not an explanation of how well I do this but rather the objective fact of his forgiving grace and truth.
In your reply you uaed the phrase, " When you tell others about the very real Savior who gave you grace this morning". There are two poles in this phrase. The Savior - and me. Which gets the emphasis? Is it the objective reality of the Christ in whom we believe - or is it myself and what I think that I have experienced? Furthermore - how do you prove to someone else that your experience is one of grace? While the personal experiential side of life is tremendously important - think LD 1 which zeros right into the heart of the matter of our faith relationship to Christ - my story no matter how deeply I am convinced of God's grace in Christ is simply not the good news. My experientail life is the result that Christ effects by his Gospel through the Holy Spirit. While that indeed is very good news to me and the apostles made very plain by their obsesson with the living Jesus Christ that they were deeply affected - the really did not preach "themselves" or their experiences.
There is another factor that may be overlooked. If I drive around in a :Lexus and you drive a 12 year old winter beater how are you going to feel if I keep telling you how wonderful it is to own and experience such a luxury car? If I tried to tell someone how rich and wonderful it is to belong to Jesus, including all amazing things he is doing in my life to someone whose life is shattered or torn apart, even if that is a fellow believer - how do you think that person is going to react. The only imagined response is that such would think that I am so blessed I could never understand their problems and pain.
In one church there were a handful of charasmatics who were considered highly "spiritual". I had people tell me that they felt like spiritual failures because they could never be like those who were so "spiritual". I calling is not to put our spirituality or superiority in the face of others. I have personally been on the receiving end of both material and spiritual superiority being flaunted.
Clearly, when it comes to witnessing - we are always part of the equation. Jesus sent Spirit led fallible men into the world to bear witness to him - to talk about him and all that he has experienced in the past as well as who he is today.
I think that I do have the peices in the right order. The summary of the first sermons used the same outline. The man you killed, God's holy one, God raised from the dead and in him is the forgiveness of sins. If anyone could have talked about how much he was forgiven and the intimate reconciliation with the risen Jesus on that first day, was Peter. He had a great story to tell - how he was so boastful that he would die with Jesus - how miserably he failed - and how tenderly he was reconciled. But this story he does not tell. While it is biblically obvious that the apostles saw themselves deeply invovled in the drama of gracious salvation - their passion was telling about the risen Christ, once crucified. I'm sure you know Paul's word in Phil. 3 where he summarizes his passion - I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings.
As we age in Christ and see our sin more clearly we also grow in the wonder and marvel of his grace and love even to the point of asking how can I be forgiven, how can God possibly delight in me. That wonder creates a passion, at least for me, not to talk about myself first of all, but to point other to Christ. As John the Baptist said - He must increase - I must decrease.
I do not think that we are very far apart. You say, " When you live such repentance and faith, you cannot help but tell others about the One who forgives and loves you." Allow me to restate this from my perspective. "When you have this deep seated conviction that Jesus is Messiah and Lord and that you belong to him no matter what, you cannot help but tell others about the One who is the living Word, the one through whom all was made and hangs together, the one who hung on the cross, whom God raised from the dead, made him Messiah and Lord and gave him all the power and authority for our sakes."
The response of those Jesus joined on the way to Emmaus is high significant. Luke 24:32, "And the said one to another, Was not our heart burning whithin us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? (ASV) And what had Jesus done? Luke 24:27, "And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." And finally Romans 10:9,10 "..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." And Romans 10:17 "So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
One of my favorite passasges is II John 4 where he says in effect - I rejoice to see your children walking in the truth. One of the things that I am most thankful for is the great cloud of witnesses that I have come to know in my experiences in life. Since my father was also a minister I have lived in the shadow of the church all my life. What has frequently amazed me was the instant raport I have experienced when I discovered someone was a fellow believer. That bond of fellowship is forever. I have enjoyed many experiences with fellow beleivers. I have also shared their sorrows and even on one occasion actually wept with a brother. I have listened to believers talk about their inner pain and frustration. But most of the believers I have meet have not defined their lives primarily in terms of "spiritual" experiences. As far as I could tell, they thought about human experiences and living with fellow believers by faith and in obedience to Christ and his word. All of this is medaited by Christ and his word and Spirit.
I am sure you are aware that there is a long standing tradition that defines spiritual experience in terms of the soul's direct and immediate contact with the essence of God. When I here people say they have heard God speaking to them or they have a great sense of God's presence I suspect that they are operating out of this tradition. This tradition greatly minimizes created reality or even negates it. The soul is good, the body is bad. To become truly spiritual one must get the soul out of the body. Can you imagine that salvation is defined in terms of death.
While the tradition of pietism does not go that far it trends in that direction. I have met charismatics who were very uncomfortable with the concept of Jesus in the flesh. One thing I thought of after I post my previous comments was the sermon on the mount where Jesus warns (Matt 6:1) "Take heed that you do not your righteousness before men, to be seen of them: else ye have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." He then mentions giving alms, praying and fasting. I take this to mean that we are not to parade our religous and spiritual life before men.
Having said that, I believe that if Christ has first place in our minds and hearts and we seek to grow in his grace and knowledge that there will be some kind of difference seen in our lives. But I also beleiver that since our lives are hidden in Christ ( Col 3) that we probably can't see it in ouselves. Paul says someplace that he does not even judge himself. When Christ is revealed then we will know what our lives have really been about and what Christ has done with and in them.
When I entered the ministry in my early twenties there were seniors who told me that the older they became the more they saw their sinfulness. That certainly has been true for me. I don't see much in my life to brag about or to set before others as an example. But along side of that there seem to be a growing conviction that every thing scripture says about Christ is true. That he is the Living One, that he is risen and both Messiah (Christ) and Lord, that I belong to him and that he is the only hope that I have in life or death. But that conviction although I believe a result of the Spirit's work thorugh the Gospel, is not the gospel and I do not go around telling people how strong I think my faith is. For even though it may seem very strong in my heart and mind I have no way of evaluating it. All I know is that when I read scripture it keeps confirming what I have known all my life.
John Calvin insists that God in his naked majesty cannot be known. He can only be known through the person of the mediator. There is only mediated knowledge of God in Christ. And that knowledge comes into a real world of people in their everyday lives.
Since "spiritual experience" can be a vague concept - perhaps it might be helfpul to express your understanding of what that means to you.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
"l;iving in the shadow of the church" was simply a geographical statement. I deeply apreciate the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12) but my exprience in the instituted church has been both very positive and negative. My security however, is not first of all in the "church" but in Christ himself (LD 1). All the blessings of salvation are found in him alone. Fellow beleiver can be both helpful and disappointing. I have often been amazed at the instant raport established (by Christ) when you find out a complete stranger is a fellow brother or sister. How little time we have to really get to know each other. How eager I am for the return of the risen Lord and the redemptions of our bodies ( our entire persons actually) and the renewal of all creation. Think of life in this creation with any sin in it. I have met so many interesting people along the way that I look forward to renewing those acquaintances. We will never run out of time and nothing can hurt or destroy those friendships.
Unfortunately, most beleiver have been taught and think that they are going to "heaven" forever. What is the most common understanding of "heaven". That is where souls go when bodies go into the ground. That tends to transfer in the "future heaven" Many years ago I heard one minister say "do you like to be in church (worship service). Well you better because that is what heaven is going to be like."
An interesting fact - that the OT church was never promsed a "heaven" but was promised that they would dwell in the land in peace and prosperity. The bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is God's eternal commitment to the created order and our own creatureliness. He already is the new creation that we will some day experience along with the entire creation. That is the clear NT promise. Since the NT church is in reality Israel gathering the nations into herself - we too share in all the OT promises - every promise made in the OT was fulfilled in Christ. Paul says at the end of I Thess 2, and I paraphrase - the greatest thrill of my life will be to see you standing with me in the presence of Christ.. While our lives in this time have eternal significane - the best is yet to come.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
I respond by asksing how does anyone to what job they are called?
Our vocal speech is always an expressions of that inner voice that never quits talking, at least mine does not. We call it thinking. In my head I have only ever heard one voice. I have never heard an voice obviously distince from mine. I honestly can say I have never heard "voices".
Now private revelation is highly subjective. There are people who claim that God talks directly to them and usually its about decisions that have to be made - what job to take - what person to marry - what mode of transportation to take, etc.
The huge problem that I see - is that the person decides which thoughts in their heads are from God. Furthermore, God is not the only one who can influence us. Apparently devils can, I and I suspect the ministering spirits call angels can. By what standards does a person decide when God is talking? Many years ago in this general area a man killed his two young sons because God told him to do so.
The only place I hear God talking is in the bible, but since God promised to write his word in our hearts, that content of that word becomes part of the fabric of our being. That content, in one form or another, frequently enters into my thoughts. And that word is primarily concerned with faith and obedience. We may often be too concerned with what is called God's hidden will for our lives. I have no idea how to discern that. But his revealed will is very plain and clear. That ought to be our primary concern.
Also, saying God told me is the positive side of the devil made me do it. I believe that both of these are simply ways to escape our human responsibility to make choices and decisions. I do not know all the reasons why I felt I should go into the ministry. As a candidate I receive one call. As far as I knew there were no other options in the works. We were taught (rightly or wrongly) that our internal calling had to be verified by an external call from a congregation. The choice seemed quite simple. I had a viable option set before me. While believing that Christ is always active in our lives by his Holy Spirit, and asking for wisdom, I made a decision which was entirely my responsibility. I heard no strange voices or whisperings in my ear. I honestly do not know any other way of operating. I blieve that God payed us a huge compliment by not making us robots or puppets that he controls.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
The thesis of the original blog was that beleivers ought to be in more intimate relationships with God so that they can tell others about their spiritual expriences as a means of leading them to Christ.
My question: Why should I want to talk about my weak, imperfect, and incomplete "spiritual" experiences (which I really have no way of evaluating) when I can talk about the perfect, powerful, complete, and saving "spiritual" experiences of the Risen, one crucified Christ. I experience the life of faith because of who he is and what he has done and is doing.
While scripture gives a great deal of info about the life of faith it is very clear that the content of the gospel that is God's power unto salvation is the "spiritual" experiences of Jesus of Nazareth. I use that name because the apostles do in the book of Acts. In Acts 22:8 when Paul asks - who are you Lord, Jesus responds, " I am Jesus of Nazareth".
It appears to me that most believers think of Jesus primarily in terms of his deity. Resurrection, however, is not a catagory that applies to deity. Our flesh was nailed to the cross. Our flesh, in the person of Jesus , came out of the grave. At the Lord's Supper we don't talking about breathing in "spirit" but we talk in very fleshly language about eating and drinking the body and blood of Jesus. As man he earned our salvatiion and is now the glorified man, the first fruits of all believer who shall be raised by him.
My words about my life are not "gospel". My words about Jesus life ARE "gospel" for it is not my personal story but the personal story of Jesus himself.
The disciples were not sent out into the world to talk about their life's experiences but about His.
Unfortunately, it is all too easy to want to place ourselves at the center and talk about ourselves. How hard it is to listen.
But as Paul says, and I paraphrase (II Cor. 4:5 - We preach not our own spiritual experiences but we preach the spiritual experiences of Jesus as Lord.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
This is the second article in a month (See Greg Selmon's "Today's Compelling Story of Grace" 10-18-12) that suggest the motivation for witness is found in the spiritual superiority of the individual believer. Critical to witness is the believer's dynamic experiences of grace, fresh each day, and their personal passion for God. What I hear being said is that we must be like the pharisee in the front of the temple who thanks God that he is not like other men, that he has all these fantastic spiritual experiences, that he is not like the sinner in the back of the room. We must have something to show and tell about ourselves (called sharing Christ), when actually it is simply talking about and possibly even boasting about ourselves.
Probably the most fantastic spiritual experience in this life would be to be raised from the dead. The rich man in Hades pleads with father Abraham to send Lazarus back to his brothers arguing that the bible (Moses and the Prophets) is not sufficient - they need to see something. The answer comes back that is they do not believe the bible neither will they believe if someone rises from the dead.
Genuine spiritual growth results in a growing realization that all the benefits and blessings of salvation are not found in self but in the person of the bodily risen Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God, so say the apostles. Now pershaps I am spiritually regressing but the older I have become the more if feel like the "sinner" in the back of the temple and the man who buried his one talent. So according to your thesis I would have no impetus for witnessing. While love for God is the highest commandment it is not the most important thing in this life. We are not saved by our love but by our faith, which is a gift of God. By that gift we become increasingly convinced of the historical facts and present reality of the bodily risen Jesus. I am not interested in telling others about my fantastical "grace experiences" because I have none to tell about. But there seems to be a great desire and passion to talk about the person of Christ and his experiences, that he is risen and he is Messiah and Lord. That is the essence of the biblcal witness and the heart of the gospel.
Scripture is very clear that we are not to boast about ourselves, but only about Christ himself. That can be done only by using the truth and facts of the scriptures as they point to Christ. He himself makes this point in Luke 24 both on the way to Emmaus and to his disciples. Paul says in II Cor. 4 that we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord.
In Acts 23-26 Paul summarizes this his entire gospel in terms of the hope of Israel - the resurrection of the body. In acts 2-4 the heart of the apostolic witness becomes plain. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God. You killied him. God raised him from the dead and made him MNessiah and Lord and in him is the forgiveness of sins. See also Acts 13. In Acts 17 Paul asserts that God has appointed a man by which he will judge the world and has demonstrated this by raising Jesus from the dead.
I would suggest that the lack of motivation comes from the fact that the church has almost comletely ignored the fact and significance of the bodily resurrection of the Man Jesus ( yes I affirm his full deity). All my life I have heard that my "gratitude" is the driving force for living a life of faith - while scripture (even the Heidelberg Catechism) locates the motivation factor in the renewing work of the Risen Jesus by his Holy Spirit after his image. Paul says - I count all my religious accomplishments as garbage for the sake of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. I want to know Christ, the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his suffering. We hardly ever hear about the return of Christ and when it is mentioned we are told that we are going to spend eternity in heaven even though scripture, both Old and New, makes clear we will spend eternity in a renewed created order with our complete persons - spirit, soul and body make new, whole and imperishable. I don't know many beleivers who are enthused about our glorious future.
Christ is viewed primarily as "a spirit being" and as "God". It seems that his glorified humanity, the very same humanity in which he was sin's curse on the cross, has evaproated into the divine all. Very Platonic and new age. The fact of the matter is that there is a man on God's throne. By man came death - by man came the resurreciton of the dead. If the dead cannot be raised, then Jesus is still dead and we are fools to trust a dead man. The apostles were not passionate about thier own spiritual expereinces - they were passionate about the reality of the bodily risen Lord and the fullness of present blessings found in him as well as the tremendous, sure and living hope that he is.
I would also suggest that Piper has things backwords. He is essentially saying that we are nothing but mirrors reflecting God's love back to himself. I don't matter, you don't matter - all that matters is God. Again this strikes me as very new age like. While we may not lose our indiduality all that matters is the flow of love to God as though he were a giant vacuum cleaner or black hole sucking all the energy out of the very things he has made. He needs nothing from us for he is full and complete in himself. God so loved the world that he gave. Ephesians 2:7 states the purpose of saving us - so that God forever and ever can show us the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. He wil continually unfold and reveal himself to us forever in a renewed created order without sin. What a great message to tell - not about my experiences - but about who he is.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
I believe that the crc has never developed a biblical reformed approach to evangelism and witnessing. There are two aspects to this discussion. What does it mean to "witness" and what is the motivation for doing so. If I see an auto accident and am called in to court to testify, the court is not interested in my emotional reaction to the experience or even my speculation about the accident. What the court wants to know is what I saw. What actually happend, not in me, but outside of me, out on the corner of Fifth and Main. Or if I am campaigning for someone else running for office, my job is to encourage people to vote for the candidate. I should not be talking about my qualifications for being a campaigner, but the qualifications of the candidate.
In John 5:39-40 Jesus makes clear that the scriptures bear witness to him and that the life was in him. Jesus sent the apostles out to bear witness to himself. Where in the gospels do the authors talk about their spiritual experiences. Where in Acts does Luke talk about himself. They are always concerned to present the facts about who the man Jesus is and what God has done and is doing in and through him. Three times in Acts Paul gives an account of his conversion but where is the description of his emotional, spiritual reaction. Those accounts are more about the risen Jesus than Paul. As Paul says in II Cor 4 - we preach not ourselves - but we preach Jesus as Lord.
In II Cor. 11 Paul is talking about false preacher/prophets and in vs 18 he shas that many glory after the flesh and that he will be foolish enough to do so also. So he continues to talk about his qualifications and experiences. In vs. 21 he says I speak in foolishness and in vs 23 he says I speak besides myself. He is basically saying I am out of my mind to talk like this. In II Cor 12:10 he talks about taking pleasure in his weaknesses, etc - for when I am weak - then I am strong because Christ's grace is sufficient.
My understanding of witnessing is to always point to the person and experiences of the risen man Jesus of Nazareth in whom dwells the fulness of the godhead bodily. In his body he bore our sin and through his blood we are forgiven. Furthermore, "resurrection" which is at the heart of the apostolic message does not apply to deity but only to the humanity of Jesus. This is critical for understanding the gospel.
Now what motivates me to witness. Is it because I am so in love with God, or so filled with joy, or I have fresh new wonderfful grace experiences every day. These may all be present. Certainly all the fruits of the Spirit should be involved in our lives to one degree or the other. But the primary motive is not experience but faith. We do not live by sight. We live by faith. And while this faith is a gift of the risen Christ through the Holy Spirit, it is my faith and a faith, with all its ups and downs, that has been encouraged and strengthed throughout my life. I can remember learning "Jesus Lov es Me" at the age of 3-1/2. Obviously any faith at that point was very simple. There never has been time in my life when I did not have some knowledge of Christ. There is within me a deep seated faith conviction ( which I cannot in any way prove) that the once crucified, but now risen and ever living Jesus of Nazareth is the only Man I can trust, the only man throuigh whom I can access the Father, the only man who can forgive and justify, the only one who has solved the problem of death and our living hope promising that someday we will be freed from death. We groan waiting for our adoption the redemption of our bodies and when we see him our bodies will be made like his body. Creation too waits for our adoption when it will be freed from the curse of sin. I have learned all this from the Bible.
When I thought witnessing was telling others about my wonderful grace experiences - I could not witness. But when I learned from scripture that witnessing was telling others about what God has done in Christ and who he is today as the risen Lord and the benefits and blessings to be found in him - witnessing became easy and I almost dare say a joy. Why is this present in my life? There is only one reason. Because, in the midst of all my failures and weakness, yes even sins, the risen Lord Jesus empowers and enables by his Holy Spirit, through the gospel. The great motivation comes not from us, but from him. I think that the church, as it becomes increasingly enamoured with "spiritual experience" s forgetting about the risen Jesus who always works in us.
There is only one way that I talk about myself when I witness. I point out that sin is self-exaltation and that when I learned that Christ was my righteousness, my self worth, my self esteem - then I learned that I no longer had to be important. I could be more free to esteem others better than myself. But that has nothing to do with any kind of spiritual superiority on my part but only with the excellency and worth of the Risen Jesus. He is the living one. He was dead once but is now alive forever.
The danger for the church is that it always wants to return to the flesh and become obsessed with its own experiences. The apostles had one passion - and that was to proclaim the name of Jesus and tell the world that this risen man was Messiah and Lord, that he was in charge of the world and the church and that he was returning someday to destroy, not creation nor our bodies, but all sin and evil making all things new.
Witnessing is point to Christ.
Motivation for witness comes from the Holy Spirit and the faith conviction that Jesus is Lord and the only way to the Father.
And with the eagerness of the NT believers, we pray "Lord, Jesus, come quickly."
Posted in: Today's Compelling Story of Grace
"I was thinking today of how often believers in Christ do not present a compelling story of God's powerful work in their lives. I know that years ago, 1988 to be exact, God entered into my life in dramatic and powerful ways. He transformed me by His grace. He brought me to faith, and I could not help but declare His presence and truth to all who would listen." The Risen Lord Jesus is constantly working in our lives usually in ordinary ways but sometimes in more spectacular forms. But the quote above troubles me because I have no spectacluar story to tell. Furthermore, at my age, as many seniors told me long ago, I see my own sins and failures far more clearly than half a century ago. But my biggest problem is that what is described is basically talking about one'self and one's personal experiences. While the Apostle Paul did on three occasions describe his confrontation by the risen Lord, his gospel was not about himself but about the objective reality of the bodily risen Lord Jesus. This is clealry stated in II Cor. 4 where he says that we preach not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord..... Jesus called the apostles to talk about themselves but about him and this they consistenly did. My personal life's story is not the gospel and therefore it is not God's power unto salvation. The gospel is always about the one who said in Rev. 1 that he was the "Living One" and that he was dead, but is alive forever more. The concsistent essence and emphasis of the apostolic gospel message was always that the man who died on the cross was raised by God and that man by the resurrection was made Messiah and Lord and in him is the forgiveness of sins. David's son is on God's throne with all power and authority. Read Acts 2, 13, Eph. 1 and Col. 1. Peter puts in clearly in II Peter 1:12 "Wherefore I shall be ready always to put you in rememberance of these things, though ye know them, and are established in the truth which is with you." What things? II Peter 1:8 "...the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
The biblical witness is always about the bodily riisen Jesus of Nazareth and the fulness and wonder of the salvation accomplished in and hrough the expereiences of the incarnate word. My story is insignificant compared to his. My story will impress no one and very quickly becomes old and boring, in large part because the essence of sin is self-exaltation and each is obsessed with his or her own story. It is the old, old story which is ever new because he is bodily risen with all power for the sake of the the church. When I thought that I had to tell my story I found it next to impossible to witness. When I learned I didn't need to tell others what a marvelous Christian I was, and that the liviing Lord Jesus in the full glory of his risen humanity is the Father's agent of sovereignty and grace was at the heart of the gospel - witnessing because a whole different matter. His story never grows old. How easy it is to simply tell others about who he is - his death and resurrection and that in him are to be found all spiritual blessings and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He is the fulfillment of all God's promises.
It is not modern technique nor media but the risen Christ himself, the living Word which God has always spoken and continues to speak who by the power of his resurrection through the Holy Spirit uses our weak and feeble words of witness and preaching to actually reach into hearts and lives and bring them to faith and salvation.
Read the book of Acts. Pay careful attention to what was written to the NT church. It is all about the risen once crucified Jesus who is the only way to the Father. John Calvin was extremely Christo-centric. He consistenlty emphasized that the only way to the Father was throuth the "flesh" of Jesus born of Mary - through the Man Jesus to God the Father. Of course this can be possible is because this Jesus in his one person is also the eternal Son and living Word.
He is the One the church really needs to be talking about from the pulpit and to whomever the Lord brings across our paths. This is the consistent apostilic practice and biblical pattern. In Romans 15:5 Paul is concerned that "we be of the same mind one with another according to Christ Jesus: that with one accord you may with one mouth gorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Posted in: Today's Compelling Story of Grace
Dear Greg,
Thanks for the further comment. I am well aware that faith unites with Christ. Furthermore, as far as I can tell the theme of the Heidelberg Catechism is "Christ by his Holy Spirit" (See QA76). In John 6 Jesus makes clear that the work the Father wants from us is "to believe in the one that he sent". I have no problem trying to explain to others what it means that "Christ is my righteousness" or he is my self-worth, my self-esteem. I do that because the essence of sin is self-exaltation which always prompts me to think that I am better than others. This is not an explanation of how well I do this but rather the objective fact of his forgiving grace and truth.
In your reply you uaed the phrase, " When you tell others about the very real Savior who gave you grace this morning". There are two poles in this phrase. The Savior - and me. Which gets the emphasis? Is it the objective reality of the Christ in whom we believe - or is it myself and what I think that I have experienced? Furthermore - how do you prove to someone else that your experience is one of grace? While the personal experiential side of life is tremendously important - think LD 1 which zeros right into the heart of the matter of our faith relationship to Christ - my story no matter how deeply I am convinced of God's grace in Christ is simply not the good news. My experientail life is the result that Christ effects by his Gospel through the Holy Spirit. While that indeed is very good news to me and the apostles made very plain by their obsesson with the living Jesus Christ that they were deeply affected - the really did not preach "themselves" or their experiences.
There is another factor that may be overlooked. If I drive around in a :Lexus and you drive a 12 year old winter beater how are you going to feel if I keep telling you how wonderful it is to own and experience such a luxury car? If I tried to tell someone how rich and wonderful it is to belong to Jesus, including all amazing things he is doing in my life to someone whose life is shattered or torn apart, even if that is a fellow believer - how do you think that person is going to react. The only imagined response is that such would think that I am so blessed I could never understand their problems and pain.
In one church there were a handful of charasmatics who were considered highly "spiritual". I had people tell me that they felt like spiritual failures because they could never be like those who were so "spiritual". I calling is not to put our spirituality or superiority in the face of others. I have personally been on the receiving end of both material and spiritual superiority being flaunted.
Clearly, when it comes to witnessing - we are always part of the equation. Jesus sent Spirit led fallible men into the world to bear witness to him - to talk about him and all that he has experienced in the past as well as who he is today.
I think that I do have the peices in the right order. The summary of the first sermons used the same outline. The man you killed, God's holy one, God raised from the dead and in him is the forgiveness of sins. If anyone could have talked about how much he was forgiven and the intimate reconciliation with the risen Jesus on that first day, was Peter. He had a great story to tell - how he was so boastful that he would die with Jesus - how miserably he failed - and how tenderly he was reconciled. But this story he does not tell. While it is biblically obvious that the apostles saw themselves deeply invovled in the drama of gracious salvation - their passion was telling about the risen Christ, once crucified. I'm sure you know Paul's word in Phil. 3 where he summarizes his passion - I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings.
As we age in Christ and see our sin more clearly we also grow in the wonder and marvel of his grace and love even to the point of asking how can I be forgiven, how can God possibly delight in me. That wonder creates a passion, at least for me, not to talk about myself first of all, but to point other to Christ. As John the Baptist said - He must increase - I must decrease.
I do not think that we are very far apart. You say, " When you live such repentance and faith, you cannot help but tell others about the One who forgives and loves you." Allow me to restate this from my perspective. "When you have this deep seated conviction that Jesus is Messiah and Lord and that you belong to him no matter what, you cannot help but tell others about the One who is the living Word, the one through whom all was made and hangs together, the one who hung on the cross, whom God raised from the dead, made him Messiah and Lord and gave him all the power and authority for our sakes."
The response of those Jesus joined on the way to Emmaus is high significant. Luke 24:32, "And the said one to another, Was not our heart burning whithin us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures? (ASV) And what had Jesus done? Luke 24:27, "And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." And finally Romans 10:9,10 "..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved; for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." And Romans 10:17 "So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
Sincerely, he