Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
George McQuire, I personally found this piece of yours very encouraging, and very appropriate. Thanks for this! We need evidence of God's faithfulness, especially when we are going through trials and difficult situations. We need this evidence as much as we need our vitamins and exercise. Sometimes we get it in obvious ways, and other times we just need our eyes opened to it.
As I remember it, the Belhar was accepted as an EFD as a compromise. If the choice was only as a confession, it would have been rejected. People had serious objections to having it under the form of subscription, because they disagreed with certain statements within it, or they felt it was not of the category of a basic confession of faith. If we discuss this further, and disregard why it was adopted as an EFD and not as a confession, there will be a feeling of betrayal and deceit. Instead of trying to discuss its significance, or trying to recategorize it, it would be more beneficial to use it as a guide whenever appropriate, even pointing out where it might be a bit unbalanced or not entirely strictly scripturally accurate, but still has some good points to make. We should not let this become another divisive issue simply because of the insistence of some that it needs to be placed on a higher pedestal.
Melissa, your song is great too! O Lord my God! In awesome wonder sings my soul! We sing this one often. Really nice when you can sing it "out of the church building" and spontaneously!
Stan, the main thing is what we cannot do without. The main thing is primary. But that doesn't mean that other things are not important or significant. What you call social justice, and others might call social mercy, is part of loving our neighbor. But it should be a result of the main thing, which is loving God as a result of His love for us. To me, Matthew 28 doesn't talk about earth-keeping, and obeying everything Jesus commanded is much broader than just making sure that poor "Lazarus" at the gate of the rich man, has a job and his wounds cared for, although it does include that. It also includes the commandments against idol worship, adultery, theft, etc., and includes the commandments from the Lord outlined by the apostle Paul against perversions. (Rom 1:25) Is earthkeeping bad? Of course not; the earth is the Lord's and He commanded us to care for it, but he gave it to us for our use and benefit as well. On the other hand, Jesus very clearly said that His kingdom is not of this world. So it's not about neglecting certain things; its about keeping the main thing the main thing. Outside of a correct context, earthkeeping can become an idol; it has been an idol for millenia... think gaia worship. The earth is the Lord's, and Christ's kingdom is not of this world. This is the balance.
Wondering out loud.... would it be useful for us to have a way of people testifying to their core beliefs in common with Christians, as a way of acknowledging that they belong to God? Children born in the covenant of believers would identify and feel a belonging even before they make an official profession of faith, but those who come in thru evangelism might not have a way of making their faith and committment known unless and until they understand the confessions they would need to agree to, and have dealt with life issues in a way that is in harmony with their faith. Yet they believe and are progressing and working on their discipleship. It would seem that a different type of profession/confession would be very useful in the lifepath of new believers or even young baptized members. In some cases, individuals may have difficulties with certain small aspects of the confessions, or difficulties with lifestyle that would prevent a formal official profession of faith; yet they believe and are children of God. And it is no answer to suggest that they find a different denomination or church, particularly since there is no guarantee that they will find one that there may not be a sticking point with.
Perhaps these individuals cannot be office bearers for now... but we ought to find a way to acknowledge their participation in the body of Christ. And we should not create another form, but rather facilitate a process where they are able to make their own testimony. (Even most weddings have personal vows individually written; surely we should do no less for a profession of faith, regardless whether it is an initial "core" profession, or a later "membership" profession).
Do people feel welcome in the church? Probably we need to differentiate between sincere Christians who do not feel welcome, vs nominal or seekers who do not feel welcome. This question needs to explain the phrase: "God disciplines those whom He loves..." If the gospel is not preached completely, or if sanctification is ignored or denied then sincere Christians will not feel part of a church. If Romans 6 (shall we sin the more that grace may abound? by no means...) is ignored, or if repentance (as in "Repent and Believe") is ignored, or if I john 1:9,10, or I John 3:6 is ignored then the church has lost its salt. On the other hand, the message of grace and forgiveness and repentance means that sinners are permitted and encouraged to repent, and to experience God's grace and forgiveness. That means that unbelievers should always be encouraged to hear the gospel, not to be excluded from that message. The difficulty is whether a "seeker" is truly a seeker, or is only trying to find acceptance, rather than forgiveness for their sins. While patience is a virtue, and while God is long-suffering (patient), we also know that God disciplines those whom he loves. Some of God's discipline was very severe, such as the death of 24,000 Israelites who practiced sexual immorality with people of Balaam, or the death of Annanias and Sapphira for merely lying. We should not arrogantly assume superiority over God, in thinking that we are more merciful than God. God judges more severly than us, and also provides a greater sacrifice than we do. But He asks us to be holy as he is holy. True love for one another means that we do not tolerate sin and idolatry. (I John 3: 6, Revelations 21:8). Our attitude towards sin will also demonstrate to believers and unbelievers whether we really desire God's grace, or whether we merely desire human acceptance.
I sense the frustration that Mister B has. (I am sorry about this frustration.)
I just want to reiterate a couple of things I mentioned before. First, the calling must wait on the Lord. It is not the job of any particular church to provide a job for a candidate or any other preacher. The task is for the preacher to serve the church, to enhance the service of that church to love God and to serve God. It is a misnomer to say that a church without a full-time preacher is vacant. The church is not vacant, since presumably the congregation is still there, elders still lead and serve, services are still held, God's word is still preached, and people still worship. God's spirit is still there, and thus the church is not vacant, even without an official "pastor".
It is in thinking that the church is vacant, that the problem lies. The candidate may be vacant without a church....
How can a hired full-time preacher enhance the ministry? That is the question. That is what must be specifically answered and not taken for granted. It should not try to address the question of a quasi-vacancy, but should answer the question of purpose. That is the question that congregations are asking themselves, I think.
Daniel, I hope others respond to this also, because it is an important topic. I think I am quite welcoming, but sometimes I have doubts about that, or I wonder if there are things I can do to open doors more. Okay, you are concentrating on those who are nominal or seekers. What I was getting at was that if the gospel is compromised in order to welcome some, then sincere Christians will not feel that the church is being true church. But getting back to seekers, I remember an example of a woman who came to church once or twice, and then asked people in the foyer what they thought of divorce. Well, the direct answer of course, is that scripture speaks against divorce. And this was the answer given. But I wondered later if there was not another way of answering that question. We found out later she had divorced and then remarried. She had also remarried to someone who was not a Christian. She ended up with another church in town; a church that is definately more local mission minded and more local mission experienced, and I think she even led a choir and played piano there. So on the one hand, was experienced in christian life. God did give the people of God the responsibility to admonish one another and discipline, as the form for profession of faith acknowledges and the forms for installation of elders also mentions. But sometimes people have the perception that there is more judgement going on than there really is, especially for those who are new or struggling.... and I agree that discipline is only valuable in the context of grace.
It sounds like there is a bit of a mixup on expectations.... The candidacy committee keeps track of candidates the way some councils keep track of members?... In any case, in my experience, most candidates have some contacts who are promoters, as in the example you gave. They help to connect congregations and situations with certain candidates or pastors looking for a call. It is necessary to make contacts, to discover appropriate potential situations, and put out feelers or let them know you are interested. This is especially true now when congregations have become much more picky about who they want as a pastor or preacher, and they will not necessarily trust that simply anyone will do as their pastor. As in most occupations, word of mouth and personal connections have a much bigger impact on obtaining a job than a simple add in the paper or a simple resume. \you may have to find or cultivate some promoters. So that is the practical side.
The other practical and spiritual issue is that there must be a sense of purpose beyond merely filling a role. What is it that God has called you to do beyond what any other preacher might do, or beyond what the elders might do. Why would you think that God called you to a particular situation? Why is it necessary for you to pay your student loans back by being a preacher rather than a carpenter or a tent-maker or an electrician or computer technician? I know that is what you expected, but what is God expecting from you?
Maybe a church plant? Maybe it is your task to call others to Christ rather than waiting for someone to call you to do something? I am not saying what it is, since i don't even know you but i am suggesting some possibilities. Maybe patience, but that can be difficultl. Anyway, i hope you find what God wants you to find.
Posted in: Playing with Hebrew Word Usage
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Posted in: Playing with Hebrew Word Usage
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Posted in: Vindication Praying: The Missing Petition on Most Pastors' Prayer Lists?
George McQuire, I personally found this piece of yours very encouraging, and very appropriate. Thanks for this! We need evidence of God's faithfulness, especially when we are going through trials and difficult situations. We need this evidence as much as we need our vitamins and exercise. Sometimes we get it in obvious ways, and other times we just need our eyes opened to it.
Posted in: “Well, That’s a Thought”
As I remember it, the Belhar was accepted as an EFD as a compromise. If the choice was only as a confession, it would have been rejected. People had serious objections to having it under the form of subscription, because they disagreed with certain statements within it, or they felt it was not of the category of a basic confession of faith. If we discuss this further, and disregard why it was adopted as an EFD and not as a confession, there will be a feeling of betrayal and deceit. Instead of trying to discuss its significance, or trying to recategorize it, it would be more beneficial to use it as a guide whenever appropriate, even pointing out where it might be a bit unbalanced or not entirely strictly scripturally accurate, but still has some good points to make. We should not let this become another divisive issue simply because of the insistence of some that it needs to be placed on a higher pedestal.
Posted in: Faith, Unbelief, and Growing in Grace
Greg, I will just say amen to your words here!
Posted in: The Inbreaking Kingdom
Melissa, your song is great too! O Lord my God! In awesome wonder sings my soul! We sing this one often. Really nice when you can sing it "out of the church building" and spontaneously!
Posted in: Keeping the Main Thing the Main Thing
Stan, the main thing is what we cannot do without. The main thing is primary. But that doesn't mean that other things are not important or significant. What you call social justice, and others might call social mercy, is part of loving our neighbor. But it should be a result of the main thing, which is loving God as a result of His love for us. To me, Matthew 28 doesn't talk about earth-keeping, and obeying everything Jesus commanded is much broader than just making sure that poor "Lazarus" at the gate of the rich man, has a job and his wounds cared for, although it does include that. It also includes the commandments against idol worship, adultery, theft, etc., and includes the commandments from the Lord outlined by the apostle Paul against perversions. (Rom 1:25) Is earthkeeping bad? Of course not; the earth is the Lord's and He commanded us to care for it, but he gave it to us for our use and benefit as well. On the other hand, Jesus very clearly said that His kingdom is not of this world. So it's not about neglecting certain things; its about keeping the main thing the main thing. Outside of a correct context, earthkeeping can become an idol; it has been an idol for millenia... think gaia worship. The earth is the Lord's, and Christ's kingdom is not of this world. This is the balance.
Posted in: One Faith, Many Answers
Wondering out loud.... would it be useful for us to have a way of people testifying to their core beliefs in common with Christians, as a way of acknowledging that they belong to God? Children born in the covenant of believers would identify and feel a belonging even before they make an official profession of faith, but those who come in thru evangelism might not have a way of making their faith and committment known unless and until they understand the confessions they would need to agree to, and have dealt with life issues in a way that is in harmony with their faith. Yet they believe and are progressing and working on their discipleship. It would seem that a different type of profession/confession would be very useful in the lifepath of new believers or even young baptized members. In some cases, individuals may have difficulties with certain small aspects of the confessions, or difficulties with lifestyle that would prevent a formal official profession of faith; yet they believe and are children of God. And it is no answer to suggest that they find a different denomination or church, particularly since there is no guarantee that they will find one that there may not be a sticking point with.
Perhaps these individuals cannot be office bearers for now... but we ought to find a way to acknowledge their participation in the body of Christ. And we should not create another form, but rather facilitate a process where they are able to make their own testimony. (Even most weddings have personal vows individually written; surely we should do no less for a profession of faith, regardless whether it is an initial "core" profession, or a later "membership" profession).
Posted in: No Outsiders: Relating to Those Who "Don't Belong"
Do people feel welcome in the church? Probably we need to differentiate between sincere Christians who do not feel welcome, vs nominal or seekers who do not feel welcome. This question needs to explain the phrase: "God disciplines those whom He loves..." If the gospel is not preached completely, or if sanctification is ignored or denied then sincere Christians will not feel part of a church. If Romans 6 (shall we sin the more that grace may abound? by no means...) is ignored, or if repentance (as in "Repent and Believe") is ignored, or if I john 1:9,10, or I John 3:6 is ignored then the church has lost its salt. On the other hand, the message of grace and forgiveness and repentance means that sinners are permitted and encouraged to repent, and to experience God's grace and forgiveness. That means that unbelievers should always be encouraged to hear the gospel, not to be excluded from that message. The difficulty is whether a "seeker" is truly a seeker, or is only trying to find acceptance, rather than forgiveness for their sins. While patience is a virtue, and while God is long-suffering (patient), we also know that God disciplines those whom he loves. Some of God's discipline was very severe, such as the death of 24,000 Israelites who practiced sexual immorality with people of Balaam, or the death of Annanias and Sapphira for merely lying. We should not arrogantly assume superiority over God, in thinking that we are more merciful than God. God judges more severly than us, and also provides a greater sacrifice than we do. But He asks us to be holy as he is holy. True love for one another means that we do not tolerate sin and idolatry. (I John 3: 6, Revelations 21:8). Our attitude towards sin will also demonstrate to believers and unbelievers whether we really desire God's grace, or whether we merely desire human acceptance.
Posted in: Waiting Pastors, Counting Sheep and Counting Shepherds
I sense the frustration that Mister B has. (I am sorry about this frustration.)
I just want to reiterate a couple of things I mentioned before. First, the calling must wait on the Lord. It is not the job of any particular church to provide a job for a candidate or any other preacher. The task is for the preacher to serve the church, to enhance the service of that church to love God and to serve God. It is a misnomer to say that a church without a full-time preacher is vacant. The church is not vacant, since presumably the congregation is still there, elders still lead and serve, services are still held, God's word is still preached, and people still worship. God's spirit is still there, and thus the church is not vacant, even without an official "pastor".
It is in thinking that the church is vacant, that the problem lies. The candidate may be vacant without a church....
How can a hired full-time preacher enhance the ministry? That is the question. That is what must be specifically answered and not taken for granted. It should not try to address the question of a quasi-vacancy, but should answer the question of purpose. That is the question that congregations are asking themselves, I think.
Posted in: No Outsiders: Relating to Those Who "Don't Belong"
Daniel, I hope others respond to this also, because it is an important topic. I think I am quite welcoming, but sometimes I have doubts about that, or I wonder if there are things I can do to open doors more. Okay, you are concentrating on those who are nominal or seekers. What I was getting at was that if the gospel is compromised in order to welcome some, then sincere Christians will not feel that the church is being true church. But getting back to seekers, I remember an example of a woman who came to church once or twice, and then asked people in the foyer what they thought of divorce. Well, the direct answer of course, is that scripture speaks against divorce. And this was the answer given. But I wondered later if there was not another way of answering that question. We found out later she had divorced and then remarried. She had also remarried to someone who was not a Christian. She ended up with another church in town; a church that is definately more local mission minded and more local mission experienced, and I think she even led a choir and played piano there. So on the one hand, was experienced in christian life. God did give the people of God the responsibility to admonish one another and discipline, as the form for profession of faith acknowledges and the forms for installation of elders also mentions. But sometimes people have the perception that there is more judgement going on than there really is, especially for those who are new or struggling.... and I agree that discipline is only valuable in the context of grace.
Posted in: Waiting Pastors, Counting Sheep and Counting Shepherds
It sounds like there is a bit of a mixup on expectations.... The candidacy committee keeps track of candidates the way some councils keep track of members?... In any case, in my experience, most candidates have some contacts who are promoters, as in the example you gave. They help to connect congregations and situations with certain candidates or pastors looking for a call. It is necessary to make contacts, to discover appropriate potential situations, and put out feelers or let them know you are interested. This is especially true now when congregations have become much more picky about who they want as a pastor or preacher, and they will not necessarily trust that simply anyone will do as their pastor. As in most occupations, word of mouth and personal connections have a much bigger impact on obtaining a job than a simple add in the paper or a simple resume. \you may have to find or cultivate some promoters. So that is the practical side.
The other practical and spiritual issue is that there must be a sense of purpose beyond merely filling a role. What is it that God has called you to do beyond what any other preacher might do, or beyond what the elders might do. Why would you think that God called you to a particular situation? Why is it necessary for you to pay your student loans back by being a preacher rather than a carpenter or a tent-maker or an electrician or computer technician? I know that is what you expected, but what is God expecting from you?
Maybe a church plant? Maybe it is your task to call others to Christ rather than waiting for someone to call you to do something? I am not saying what it is, since i don't even know you but i am suggesting some possibilities. Maybe patience, but that can be difficultl. Anyway, i hope you find what God wants you to find.