Do people feel welcome in the church? Probably we need to differentiate between sincere Christians who do not feel welcome, vs nominal or seekers who do not feel welcome. This question needs to explain the phrase: "God disciplines those whom He loves..." If the gospel is not preached completely, or if sanctification is ignored or denied then sincere Christians will not feel part of a church. If Romans 6 (shall we sin the more that grace may abound? by no means...) is ignored, or if repentance (as in "Repent and Believe") is ignored, or if I john 1:9,10, or I John 3:6 is ignored then the church has lost its salt. On the other hand, the message of grace and forgiveness and repentance means that sinners are permitted and encouraged to repent, and to experience God's grace and forgiveness. That means that unbelievers should always be encouraged to hear the gospel, not to be excluded from that message. The difficulty is whether a "seeker" is truly a seeker, or is only trying to find acceptance, rather than forgiveness for their sins. While patience is a virtue, and while God is long-suffering (patient), we also know that God disciplines those whom he loves. Some of God's discipline was very severe, such as the death of 24,000 Israelites who practiced sexual immorality with people of Balaam, or the death of Annanias and Sapphira for merely lying. We should not arrogantly assume superiority over God, in thinking that we are more merciful than God. God judges more severly than us, and also provides a greater sacrifice than we do. But He asks us to be holy as he is holy. True love for one another means that we do not tolerate sin and idolatry. (I John 3: 6, Revelations 21:8). Our attitude towards sin will also demonstrate to believers and unbelievers whether we really desire God's grace, or whether we merely desire human acceptance.
I sense the frustration that Mister B has. (I am sorry about this frustration.)
I just want to reiterate a couple of things I mentioned before. First, the calling must wait on the Lord. It is not the job of any particular church to provide a job for a candidate or any other preacher. The task is for the preacher to serve the church, to enhance the service of that church to love God and to serve God. It is a misnomer to say that a church without a full-time preacher is vacant. The church is not vacant, since presumably the congregation is still there, elders still lead and serve, services are still held, God's word is still preached, and people still worship. God's spirit is still there, and thus the church is not vacant, even without an official "pastor".
It is in thinking that the church is vacant, that the problem lies. The candidate may be vacant without a church....
How can a hired full-time preacher enhance the ministry? That is the question. That is what must be specifically answered and not taken for granted. It should not try to address the question of a quasi-vacancy, but should answer the question of purpose. That is the question that congregations are asking themselves, I think.
Daniel, I hope others respond to this also, because it is an important topic. I think I am quite welcoming, but sometimes I have doubts about that, or I wonder if there are things I can do to open doors more. Okay, you are concentrating on those who are nominal or seekers. What I was getting at was that if the gospel is compromised in order to welcome some, then sincere Christians will not feel that the church is being true church. But getting back to seekers, I remember an example of a woman who came to church once or twice, and then asked people in the foyer what they thought of divorce. Well, the direct answer of course, is that scripture speaks against divorce. And this was the answer given. But I wondered later if there was not another way of answering that question. We found out later she had divorced and then remarried. She had also remarried to someone who was not a Christian. She ended up with another church in town; a church that is definately more local mission minded and more local mission experienced, and I think she even led a choir and played piano there. So on the one hand, was experienced in christian life. God did give the people of God the responsibility to admonish one another and discipline, as the form for profession of faith acknowledges and the forms for installation of elders also mentions. But sometimes people have the perception that there is more judgement going on than there really is, especially for those who are new or struggling.... and I agree that discipline is only valuable in the context of grace.
It sounds like there is a bit of a mixup on expectations.... The candidacy committee keeps track of candidates the way some councils keep track of members?... In any case, in my experience, most candidates have some contacts who are promoters, as in the example you gave. They help to connect congregations and situations with certain candidates or pastors looking for a call. It is necessary to make contacts, to discover appropriate potential situations, and put out feelers or let them know you are interested. This is especially true now when congregations have become much more picky about who they want as a pastor or preacher, and they will not necessarily trust that simply anyone will do as their pastor. As in most occupations, word of mouth and personal connections have a much bigger impact on obtaining a job than a simple add in the paper or a simple resume. \you may have to find or cultivate some promoters. So that is the practical side.
The other practical and spiritual issue is that there must be a sense of purpose beyond merely filling a role. What is it that God has called you to do beyond what any other preacher might do, or beyond what the elders might do. Why would you think that God called you to a particular situation? Why is it necessary for you to pay your student loans back by being a preacher rather than a carpenter or a tent-maker or an electrician or computer technician? I know that is what you expected, but what is God expecting from you?
Maybe a church plant? Maybe it is your task to call others to Christ rather than waiting for someone to call you to do something? I am not saying what it is, since i don't even know you but i am suggesting some possibilities. Maybe patience, but that can be difficultl. Anyway, i hope you find what God wants you to find.
Might I suggest that perhaps instead of just giving our own thoughts, whether we are deaf or hearing, we go first to scripture and ask what God says about this. What indication does Jesus give about this? Whether deaf or hearing, our own thoughts will just be that: our own thoughts. Our own thoughts may have little bearing on the reality of what God has actually intended for us.
While on vacation, we often attend non-crc churches. A few weeks ago, we attended a "community" church where the pastor was attending a conference during the week, and they had a pancake breakfast on Saturday, which we attended. It was organized completely by men, although a few women attended to partake of the bounty. While discussing with them the service for the next day, the men were not absolutely certain that the preacher would be there the next day on the Sunday. But one of them said, "we think he will be there, but if he isn't, I will lead the service myself". This was a small church, denomination not identified, probably less than 80 attended on sunday morning, with about 16 at the bible study just previous. As it turned out, the preacher did make it, I believe a six hour trip from the conference location, and they invited us to join the choir that morning. We were quite reluctant, not having practiced with the choir, and not knowing one of the songs at all, but eventually they persuaded us.
A small church, but in my opinion, very mature. A church is mature when it continues regardless of circumstances, and regardless of who is there to lead or preach. And it is mature when the spirit of worship and welcome especially for strangers, is obvious.
Another church we attended a week later was Assembley of God, in a different town. We discovered it was pentecostal, and we were somewhat uncomfortable, but it was our vacation, a time when God opens up new discoveries to us. In his sermon, the preacher highlighted the strengths of this church, in being welcoming, and in being discipling (entering and applying the word to life, and leading others to christian living). He suggested that a weakness was evangelism, by asking how often the members had asked someone to come to church with them? Perhaps a self-centered church can never be mature, no matter how old it is, or how financially secure.
We ought to ask ourselves also how these three aspects of maturity (self-sustaining, governing and propagating) relate to the "marks of the true church" as we know them , which are identified as the pure preaching of the word, the pure administration of the sacraments, and the administration of discipline.
As a practical matter, I would suggest that a church would be mature if it is evangelistic either through growing in numbers or through planting another church, or both. Possibly a church is not mature merely because it is old. And possibly a previously mature church could regress to immaturity. Food for thought.
Having experienced various church settings and experiences, your comments make me wonder about the relevance of coming to meetings, whether deacons, elders, sunday school planning, building, bible studies, etc., without our bibles in hand, and what that says about where our focus is. Is that a symbol of our calling?
Should elders be chairing classis meetings? It should be a possibility. I can remember at least once when a pastor, who had been a pastor for only a year, maybe two, ended up on the rotation for chairing classis, since it was the turn of his church. He struggled, although he tried hard and did his best. How many times had he previously attended classis, maybe three? I know other pastors who were not too interested in the protocols and procedures of classis, and I know others who were too interested in the 'legal" details and niceties of procedure in order to achieve their results, or to reduce discussion.
There is always assistance for the chair from others, such as the stated clerk, the previous chair, experienced people, etc. The main issue is not just who chairs, but how involved the non-preaching elders can be. I have found the elders more involved lately than they were thirty years ago. But all of this starts at the local council. It also starts with the idea that just because an elder is not on council, doesn't mean he doesn't have responsibilities for staying informed, and remaining to be a spiritual influence and leader in the church. His term on council may be temporary, but his calling as a spiritual leader is not ended unless he is deposed or disciplined in some way.
We should also realize that not all elders go to classis, while some go more often. In some cases, some elders might even go once a year, since certain elders have more time, ability and desire than others. So we should be careful about overgeneralizing.
While elders will not know everyone's name, neither do the pastors, since they often don't know all the elders attending. I highly recommend all classis meetings to produce a list of attenders to classis at the beginning of the meeting to be handed out with the agenda or any other meeting materials. Name tags are good, but a list of attenders would be most helpful as well, since sometimes people are known by their names more than by their face.
"Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Quereshi is a very good book written by a former Muslim who came to Christ in his twenties. The theological, cultural, family and philosophical struggles he had to go through are well explained and narrated in an easy to read story format. Even the intellectual knowledge about the poverty of the koran, the contradictions of the prophet Mohammed, and the truth of Jesus, could not initially overcome his reluctance to accept it. This reluctance was mostly because of the cost... the cost of family relationships, and the built in fear of eternal death for believing in Jesus as God. It is a very interesting and revealing book.
Ron, I think giving should be voluntary and cheerful regardless, so I doubt I'd be hitting anyone too hard on it. I kind of agree with you, especially from a deacon's perspective. It's really the job of deacons to help others, not to grind on them. But from a personal perspective, if I was a teacher in that perspective, I would find it hard to say that I've given enough simply because of opportunity costs for my employment. Obviously, if you have no income, you can't give anything, and if you are paid less, you would likely give less. But it is not too hard to identify an opportunity cost no matter what job or occupation you might have, whether making financial sacrifices to minister to your family, or to provide time for other mission causes. If you spend two weeks of vacation on a diaconal project and spend your own money to get there and for lodging, would you subtract that time and money from your tithe, for example. I don't want to make a big deal of this; just provide another perspective.
I think we need to be careful not to confuse giving, with stewardship. Giving 10% or 20% of your income to the wrong causes could be very poor stewardship. Giving 10% to the church is allowing the church to be stewards of that money. If the church is a good steward, then the money will be used effectively and efficiently in causes that honor and glorify Christ, and which promote the gifts which God has given us.
In terms of encouraging others to give a "stewardly" amount to the church, I think this should be done holistically. First of all, it needs to be seen and felt to be voluntary, the results of cheerful and thankful giving. For those who want to be cheerful givers, they should consider "giving back to God" as their first priority, not just checking whether there is something left over to give after buying the fancy boat or cottage or vacation or big screen TV. Giving is always a sign of spiritual health, a sign of thankfulness and contentment with God's blessings, and a sign of willingness to trust God for our daily needs. A lack of giving is sometimes a sign of idolization of money or financial security, and sometimes a sign of poverty.
And Jesus was very clear that "giving to God"(church) can never be a substitute for obedience to God, which includes obeying God, loving your neighbor and looking after the needs of those placed in your care.
Posted in: No Outsiders: Relating to Those Who "Don't Belong"
Do people feel welcome in the church? Probably we need to differentiate between sincere Christians who do not feel welcome, vs nominal or seekers who do not feel welcome. This question needs to explain the phrase: "God disciplines those whom He loves..." If the gospel is not preached completely, or if sanctification is ignored or denied then sincere Christians will not feel part of a church. If Romans 6 (shall we sin the more that grace may abound? by no means...) is ignored, or if repentance (as in "Repent and Believe") is ignored, or if I john 1:9,10, or I John 3:6 is ignored then the church has lost its salt. On the other hand, the message of grace and forgiveness and repentance means that sinners are permitted and encouraged to repent, and to experience God's grace and forgiveness. That means that unbelievers should always be encouraged to hear the gospel, not to be excluded from that message. The difficulty is whether a "seeker" is truly a seeker, or is only trying to find acceptance, rather than forgiveness for their sins. While patience is a virtue, and while God is long-suffering (patient), we also know that God disciplines those whom he loves. Some of God's discipline was very severe, such as the death of 24,000 Israelites who practiced sexual immorality with people of Balaam, or the death of Annanias and Sapphira for merely lying. We should not arrogantly assume superiority over God, in thinking that we are more merciful than God. God judges more severly than us, and also provides a greater sacrifice than we do. But He asks us to be holy as he is holy. True love for one another means that we do not tolerate sin and idolatry. (I John 3: 6, Revelations 21:8). Our attitude towards sin will also demonstrate to believers and unbelievers whether we really desire God's grace, or whether we merely desire human acceptance.
Posted in: Waiting Pastors, Counting Sheep and Counting Shepherds
I sense the frustration that Mister B has. (I am sorry about this frustration.)
I just want to reiterate a couple of things I mentioned before. First, the calling must wait on the Lord. It is not the job of any particular church to provide a job for a candidate or any other preacher. The task is for the preacher to serve the church, to enhance the service of that church to love God and to serve God. It is a misnomer to say that a church without a full-time preacher is vacant. The church is not vacant, since presumably the congregation is still there, elders still lead and serve, services are still held, God's word is still preached, and people still worship. God's spirit is still there, and thus the church is not vacant, even without an official "pastor".
It is in thinking that the church is vacant, that the problem lies. The candidate may be vacant without a church....
How can a hired full-time preacher enhance the ministry? That is the question. That is what must be specifically answered and not taken for granted. It should not try to address the question of a quasi-vacancy, but should answer the question of purpose. That is the question that congregations are asking themselves, I think.
Posted in: No Outsiders: Relating to Those Who "Don't Belong"
Daniel, I hope others respond to this also, because it is an important topic. I think I am quite welcoming, but sometimes I have doubts about that, or I wonder if there are things I can do to open doors more. Okay, you are concentrating on those who are nominal or seekers. What I was getting at was that if the gospel is compromised in order to welcome some, then sincere Christians will not feel that the church is being true church. But getting back to seekers, I remember an example of a woman who came to church once or twice, and then asked people in the foyer what they thought of divorce. Well, the direct answer of course, is that scripture speaks against divorce. And this was the answer given. But I wondered later if there was not another way of answering that question. We found out later she had divorced and then remarried. She had also remarried to someone who was not a Christian. She ended up with another church in town; a church that is definately more local mission minded and more local mission experienced, and I think she even led a choir and played piano there. So on the one hand, was experienced in christian life. God did give the people of God the responsibility to admonish one another and discipline, as the form for profession of faith acknowledges and the forms for installation of elders also mentions. But sometimes people have the perception that there is more judgement going on than there really is, especially for those who are new or struggling.... and I agree that discipline is only valuable in the context of grace.
Posted in: Waiting Pastors, Counting Sheep and Counting Shepherds
It sounds like there is a bit of a mixup on expectations.... The candidacy committee keeps track of candidates the way some councils keep track of members?... In any case, in my experience, most candidates have some contacts who are promoters, as in the example you gave. They help to connect congregations and situations with certain candidates or pastors looking for a call. It is necessary to make contacts, to discover appropriate potential situations, and put out feelers or let them know you are interested. This is especially true now when congregations have become much more picky about who they want as a pastor or preacher, and they will not necessarily trust that simply anyone will do as their pastor. As in most occupations, word of mouth and personal connections have a much bigger impact on obtaining a job than a simple add in the paper or a simple resume. \you may have to find or cultivate some promoters. So that is the practical side.
The other practical and spiritual issue is that there must be a sense of purpose beyond merely filling a role. What is it that God has called you to do beyond what any other preacher might do, or beyond what the elders might do. Why would you think that God called you to a particular situation? Why is it necessary for you to pay your student loans back by being a preacher rather than a carpenter or a tent-maker or an electrician or computer technician? I know that is what you expected, but what is God expecting from you?
Maybe a church plant? Maybe it is your task to call others to Christ rather than waiting for someone to call you to do something? I am not saying what it is, since i don't even know you but i am suggesting some possibilities. Maybe patience, but that can be difficultl. Anyway, i hope you find what God wants you to find.
Posted in: Good Intentions Gone Awry
Might I suggest that perhaps instead of just giving our own thoughts, whether we are deaf or hearing, we go first to scripture and ask what God says about this. What indication does Jesus give about this? Whether deaf or hearing, our own thoughts will just be that: our own thoughts. Our own thoughts may have little bearing on the reality of what God has actually intended for us.
Posted in: Three Marks of a Mature Church?
While on vacation, we often attend non-crc churches. A few weeks ago, we attended a "community" church where the pastor was attending a conference during the week, and they had a pancake breakfast on Saturday, which we attended. It was organized completely by men, although a few women attended to partake of the bounty. While discussing with them the service for the next day, the men were not absolutely certain that the preacher would be there the next day on the Sunday. But one of them said, "we think he will be there, but if he isn't, I will lead the service myself". This was a small church, denomination not identified, probably less than 80 attended on sunday morning, with about 16 at the bible study just previous. As it turned out, the preacher did make it, I believe a six hour trip from the conference location, and they invited us to join the choir that morning. We were quite reluctant, not having practiced with the choir, and not knowing one of the songs at all, but eventually they persuaded us.
A small church, but in my opinion, very mature. A church is mature when it continues regardless of circumstances, and regardless of who is there to lead or preach. And it is mature when the spirit of worship and welcome especially for strangers, is obvious.
Another church we attended a week later was Assembley of God, in a different town. We discovered it was pentecostal, and we were somewhat uncomfortable, but it was our vacation, a time when God opens up new discoveries to us. In his sermon, the preacher highlighted the strengths of this church, in being welcoming, and in being discipling (entering and applying the word to life, and leading others to christian living). He suggested that a weakness was evangelism, by asking how often the members had asked someone to come to church with them? Perhaps a self-centered church can never be mature, no matter how old it is, or how financially secure.
We ought to ask ourselves also how these three aspects of maturity (self-sustaining, governing and propagating) relate to the "marks of the true church" as we know them , which are identified as the pure preaching of the word, the pure administration of the sacraments, and the administration of discipline.
As a practical matter, I would suggest that a church would be mature if it is evangelistic either through growing in numbers or through planting another church, or both. Possibly a church is not mature merely because it is old. And possibly a previously mature church could regress to immaturity. Food for thought.
Posted in: All I Learned From Church Is How To Do Administration
Having experienced various church settings and experiences, your comments make me wonder about the relevance of coming to meetings, whether deacons, elders, sunday school planning, building, bible studies, etc., without our bibles in hand, and what that says about where our focus is. Is that a symbol of our calling?
Posted in: Are We ignoring Elders at Synod?
Should elders be chairing classis meetings? It should be a possibility. I can remember at least once when a pastor, who had been a pastor for only a year, maybe two, ended up on the rotation for chairing classis, since it was the turn of his church. He struggled, although he tried hard and did his best. How many times had he previously attended classis, maybe three? I know other pastors who were not too interested in the protocols and procedures of classis, and I know others who were too interested in the 'legal" details and niceties of procedure in order to achieve their results, or to reduce discussion.
There is always assistance for the chair from others, such as the stated clerk, the previous chair, experienced people, etc. The main issue is not just who chairs, but how involved the non-preaching elders can be. I have found the elders more involved lately than they were thirty years ago. But all of this starts at the local council. It also starts with the idea that just because an elder is not on council, doesn't mean he doesn't have responsibilities for staying informed, and remaining to be a spiritual influence and leader in the church. His term on council may be temporary, but his calling as a spiritual leader is not ended unless he is deposed or disciplined in some way.
We should also realize that not all elders go to classis, while some go more often. In some cases, some elders might even go once a year, since certain elders have more time, ability and desire than others. So we should be careful about overgeneralizing.
While elders will not know everyone's name, neither do the pastors, since they often don't know all the elders attending. I highly recommend all classis meetings to produce a list of attenders to classis at the beginning of the meeting to be handed out with the agenda or any other meeting materials. Name tags are good, but a list of attenders would be most helpful as well, since sometimes people are known by their names more than by their face.
Posted in: Christian - Muslim Dialogue
"Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" by Nabeel Quereshi is a very good book written by a former Muslim who came to Christ in his twenties. The theological, cultural, family and philosophical struggles he had to go through are well explained and narrated in an easy to read story format. Even the intellectual knowledge about the poverty of the koran, the contradictions of the prophet Mohammed, and the truth of Jesus, could not initially overcome his reluctance to accept it. This reluctance was mostly because of the cost... the cost of family relationships, and the built in fear of eternal death for believing in Jesus as God. It is a very interesting and revealing book.
Posted in: Why Translations Matter
Good article, Larry.
Posted in: The Stewardship Series: How Much Should I Give?
Ron, I think giving should be voluntary and cheerful regardless, so I doubt I'd be hitting anyone too hard on it. I kind of agree with you, especially from a deacon's perspective. It's really the job of deacons to help others, not to grind on them. But from a personal perspective, if I was a teacher in that perspective, I would find it hard to say that I've given enough simply because of opportunity costs for my employment. Obviously, if you have no income, you can't give anything, and if you are paid less, you would likely give less. But it is not too hard to identify an opportunity cost no matter what job or occupation you might have, whether making financial sacrifices to minister to your family, or to provide time for other mission causes. If you spend two weeks of vacation on a diaconal project and spend your own money to get there and for lodging, would you subtract that time and money from your tithe, for example. I don't want to make a big deal of this; just provide another perspective.
Posted in: The Stewardship Series
I think we need to be careful not to confuse giving, with stewardship. Giving 10% or 20% of your income to the wrong causes could be very poor stewardship. Giving 10% to the church is allowing the church to be stewards of that money. If the church is a good steward, then the money will be used effectively and efficiently in causes that honor and glorify Christ, and which promote the gifts which God has given us.
In terms of encouraging others to give a "stewardly" amount to the church, I think this should be done holistically. First of all, it needs to be seen and felt to be voluntary, the results of cheerful and thankful giving. For those who want to be cheerful givers, they should consider "giving back to God" as their first priority, not just checking whether there is something left over to give after buying the fancy boat or cottage or vacation or big screen TV. Giving is always a sign of spiritual health, a sign of thankfulness and contentment with God's blessings, and a sign of willingness to trust God for our daily needs. A lack of giving is sometimes a sign of idolization of money or financial security, and sometimes a sign of poverty.
And Jesus was very clear that "giving to God"(church) can never be a substitute for obedience to God, which includes obeying God, loving your neighbor and looking after the needs of those placed in your care.