Debra, yes Paul was a flawed human being. But then, so are you. If being flawed means your view should be disregarded, then I guess your view should be disregarded. Paul was showing us how to worship Jesus, how to serve his Lord and our Lord. Paul as an apostle chosen by Christ, presented the scriptural and Godly perspective on homosex, drunkeness, slandering, swindlers,sexually immoral, greed, etc. Loving everyone does not mean loving everything that they do. There are many things that Jesus did not speak about directly but that scripture still gives us guidance on, and the apostles were able to write about that.
A good article, Ryan. I would suggest that it also be written to elders, since some elders are also leaders, and can provide encouragement and direction and support for preachers and evangelists in their desire to see others come to Christ. This can be particularly valuable when the preacher may not be thinking like an evangelist.
Ryan, perhaps you ought to define what you mean by human. If we have rejected God, are we then not living by our "animalistic" nature, as you term it? If we reject God, then we depend on ourselves, create our own gods, make ourself into a god... is this not animalistic? Does it matter then if we choose a violent or coercive pathway, or a politically pleasing persuasive pathway while we still serve only ourself? Does it matter then if we achieve the approval of men or not, if we have rejected God?
How does your definition of "human" fit with the potential to be redeemed? Is the mere act of repentance a transition from less human to more human? Did the man on the cross next to Jesus become more human without any other act than acknowledging his own guilt? Or was he still inhuman or less human because of what he had done?
Is it our own actions, or the grace of God that redeems us?
Ryan, I agree with most of your answers, especially in terms of our responsibiilty and response to God. Only I have difficulty with your definition of human. You said, "One of the biggest differences between humans and animals is that we know good and evil and can strive towards good. The more we do this, the more human we are."
I agree that humans can know good and evil and take responsibility for it, while animals are driven merely by instinct. But I do not agree that humans can be more human or less human. You see, the problem with saying that men could be less human, such as Hitler for example, is that if he is nothing more than an animal, how could he be held eternally responsible for his actions as a human being? How can an animal know good and evil? How could an animal repent from his actions? Why would we expect anything else from an animal or a less-than-human?
You see, he is fully human, although he had perverted his humanity and his relationship with God. He is fully accountable to God as a human. It is in our full humanity that we are sinners; we cannot use the excuse of our instincts or our supposed animal instincts to excuse our disobedience. Jesus became fully human, and in his humanity did not sin, and because of that, was able to be a substitute for us as humans. Jesus did not become partially animal in order to redeem our animal nature. It is disobedience and obedience that is at stake, not a reversion or change to some animal nature. Although we might sometimes use the terms "monster" or "animal" to describe a particularly heinous situation, we should realize it is ultimately a figure of speech.
You ask a very good question, Al. We are going thru planning of the sunday school program, and it includes a bit of a struggle with where catechism classes should begin. Some say earlier and some say later. I'm inclined to think that if the youth only go through or cover the catechism material once, they will not learn it very well. Between missing a few classes, and missing out on the repetition at different ages, they will miss out also on the opportunity to grasp the concepts better. It seems to me that there are different ways of teaching by the catechism and about the catechism, which should be appropriate to different ages. The sunday school classes and bible stories seem to cover the stories of Jonah and the big fish, and David and Goliath, many times over. The repetition of that does not seem to be a problem.
As an elder I also agree that I have not monitored what has been taught, and particularly not the teaching of the catechism, very well. One of the ways of improving that perhaps is to have the elders teach some of the catechism classes; at least that will lead to a better understanding of what is taught and how it is learned. But teaching catechism classes must come from the heart, it must be not just a use of materials or going thru a program, but it must be a conviction of the faith, and a passing on of this faith as a lifeline of hope and trust.
And I think we should not underestimate the capacity or abilities of our young people when they are learning.
In the context of the song, untameable means that we do not control God. We cannot limit God to our specific desires, comforts, preconceptions. God is not our servant. God is not our trained pet. As we read in the book of Job, did we make creation? Did we make the horse, or leviathan, or the behemoth? Can we control everything that God made? Can we dictate how God should act? Can we limit God? No, but God is supreme over us, not the other way around.
Some of Louis Giglio's video presentations show this concept in a marvelous way.
Thanks Karl for your answer about who these regional people might be. I would just refine your point number 4 a bit, that it is not a regional leader who will necessarily define success, but that the congregation ought to do that, either at congregational level, or minimum at the council level, perhaps with facilitation by a classis person. Half of the success of "success" is ownership by the local congregation, and they need to create their definition of success in their own context.
Every church has its purpose, and distinguishing "flagship" churches does a disservice to the general mission of the church within classis. Larger churches obviously are meetings of larger numbers of people, and perhaps the preaching, organization or location is influencing that...praise the Lord for it. But some large churches are as likely to misrepresent the gospel as some small churches are likely to struggle...I think of Joel Osteen for example. And some large churches are a bit too much people(preacher) followers rather than God followers. However, the Lord will work with all of them.
Well, yes, words have different connotations for different people. This is what makes poetry and poetic prose interesting, and what also makes it a bit different from confessional and legal documents. For people in tune with nature, the zebra, the wild lion, and the hippopotamus are wild, untamed. Untamed nature like the Rocky mountains, or the Rain Forest, is majestic, natural, directly God-created. While some lions and hippos and elephants have been tamed in spite of their size and strength, the contrast is with the independance and majesty of the untamed. Untamed means beyond our control, beyond our beck and call. The essence of our relationship with God is that we cannot lead God around on a leash. God is not tamed by us. But, it is not the only word that the song uses to describe God, is it? I agree that it is only one of the attributes, one related to God's omnipotence, and that the other attributes of Love, omniscience, eternity, omnipresence, must be described with different adjectives.
Well yes, good question. And I don't know about other consistories in general; only a few. It has been said that heresy creeps into the church quicker thru music than in any other way. Sometimes it is not just whether a song is technically correct theologically or not. Sometimes a very popular song only expresses a very limited aspect of our faith, or of our christian life, and gives us a lopsided christianity. So we need to have a good balance of songs, which is why it is good to have many to choose from. The amount of monitoring also depends sometimes on the spiritual maturity or experience or education of those who choose the songs, and the consistories confidence in their theological background. But I know I tend to have a subconscious evaluation of most songs, trying to evaluate their spiritual impact. But other times I just sing them, especially if they are familiar. I can't be analyzing all of them all the time; it leaves little room then for praise. I mean, just think of some of the Psalms, if someone wrote stuff like that today; parts of Psalm 38, 39. Pslam 40: 12, 14,15. and others. But it all has a place, part of our prayer in song.
Posted in: Are You Prejudiced and the Chick-fil-A Controversy
Debra, yes Paul was a flawed human being. But then, so are you. If being flawed means your view should be disregarded, then I guess your view should be disregarded. Paul was showing us how to worship Jesus, how to serve his Lord and our Lord. Paul as an apostle chosen by Christ, presented the scriptural and Godly perspective on homosex, drunkeness, slandering, swindlers,sexually immoral, greed, etc. Loving everyone does not mean loving everything that they do. There are many things that Jesus did not speak about directly but that scripture still gives us guidance on, and the apostles were able to write about that.
Posted in: Thinking Like an Evangelist
A good article, Ryan. I would suggest that it also be written to elders, since some elders are also leaders, and can provide encouragement and direction and support for preachers and evangelists in their desire to see others come to Christ. This can be particularly valuable when the preacher may not be thinking like an evangelist.
Posted in: Are You Prejudiced and the Chick-fil-A Controversy
Ryan, perhaps you ought to define what you mean by human. If we have rejected God, are we then not living by our "animalistic" nature, as you term it? If we reject God, then we depend on ourselves, create our own gods, make ourself into a god... is this not animalistic? Does it matter then if we choose a violent or coercive pathway, or a politically pleasing persuasive pathway while we still serve only ourself? Does it matter then if we achieve the approval of men or not, if we have rejected God?
How does your definition of "human" fit with the potential to be redeemed? Is the mere act of repentance a transition from less human to more human? Did the man on the cross next to Jesus become more human without any other act than acknowledging his own guilt? Or was he still inhuman or less human because of what he had done?
Is it our own actions, or the grace of God that redeems us?
Posted in: Commissioned Pastors: A Rose By Another Name?
Clarification: I meant the primary mention of offices in scripture refers to elders and deacons.
Posted in: Six Skills Needed for Leadership at Classis Level
Karl, perhaps I missed it, but did you ever define or identify who these regional leaders are? or these regional leadership positions?
Posted in: Are You Prejudiced and the Chick-fil-A Controversy
Ryan, I agree with most of your answers, especially in terms of our responsibiilty and response to God. Only I have difficulty with your definition of human. You said, "One of the biggest differences between humans and animals is that we know good and evil and can strive towards good. The more we do this, the more human we are."
I agree that humans can know good and evil and take responsibility for it, while animals are driven merely by instinct. But I do not agree that humans can be more human or less human. You see, the problem with saying that men could be less human, such as Hitler for example, is that if he is nothing more than an animal, how could he be held eternally responsible for his actions as a human being? How can an animal know good and evil? How could an animal repent from his actions? Why would we expect anything else from an animal or a less-than-human?
You see, he is fully human, although he had perverted his humanity and his relationship with God. He is fully accountable to God as a human. It is in our full humanity that we are sinners; we cannot use the excuse of our instincts or our supposed animal instincts to excuse our disobedience. Jesus became fully human, and in his humanity did not sin, and because of that, was able to be a substitute for us as humans. Jesus did not become partially animal in order to redeem our animal nature. It is disobedience and obedience that is at stake, not a reversion or change to some animal nature. Although we might sometimes use the terms "monster" or "animal" to describe a particularly heinous situation, we should realize it is ultimately a figure of speech.
John . "
Posted in: How Do We Know Which Story is True?
You ask a very good question, Al. We are going thru planning of the sunday school program, and it includes a bit of a struggle with where catechism classes should begin. Some say earlier and some say later. I'm inclined to think that if the youth only go through or cover the catechism material once, they will not learn it very well. Between missing a few classes, and missing out on the repetition at different ages, they will miss out also on the opportunity to grasp the concepts better. It seems to me that there are different ways of teaching by the catechism and about the catechism, which should be appropriate to different ages. The sunday school classes and bible stories seem to cover the stories of Jonah and the big fish, and David and Goliath, many times over. The repetition of that does not seem to be a problem.
As an elder I also agree that I have not monitored what has been taught, and particularly not the teaching of the catechism, very well. One of the ways of improving that perhaps is to have the elders teach some of the catechism classes; at least that will lead to a better understanding of what is taught and how it is learned. But teaching catechism classes must come from the heart, it must be not just a use of materials or going thru a program, but it must be a conviction of the faith, and a passing on of this faith as a lifeline of hope and trust.
And I think we should not underestimate the capacity or abilities of our young people when they are learning.
Posted in: Check Out the Music
In the context of the song, untameable means that we do not control God. We cannot limit God to our specific desires, comforts, preconceptions. God is not our servant. God is not our trained pet. As we read in the book of Job, did we make creation? Did we make the horse, or leviathan, or the behemoth? Can we control everything that God made? Can we dictate how God should act? Can we limit God? No, but God is supreme over us, not the other way around.
Some of Louis Giglio's video presentations show this concept in a marvelous way.
Posted in: Six Skills Needed for Leadership at Classis Level
Thanks Karl for your answer about who these regional people might be. I would just refine your point number 4 a bit, that it is not a regional leader who will necessarily define success, but that the congregation ought to do that, either at congregational level, or minimum at the council level, perhaps with facilitation by a classis person. Half of the success of "success" is ownership by the local congregation, and they need to create their definition of success in their own context.
Posted in: How will Classis Respond to the Change in Church Leadership Flow?
Every church has its purpose, and distinguishing "flagship" churches does a disservice to the general mission of the church within classis. Larger churches obviously are meetings of larger numbers of people, and perhaps the preaching, organization or location is influencing that...praise the Lord for it. But some large churches are as likely to misrepresent the gospel as some small churches are likely to struggle...I think of Joel Osteen for example. And some large churches are a bit too much people(preacher) followers rather than God followers. However, the Lord will work with all of them.
Posted in: Check Out the Music
Well, yes, words have different connotations for different people. This is what makes poetry and poetic prose interesting, and what also makes it a bit different from confessional and legal documents. For people in tune with nature, the zebra, the wild lion, and the hippopotamus are wild, untamed. Untamed nature like the Rocky mountains, or the Rain Forest, is majestic, natural, directly God-created. While some lions and hippos and elephants have been tamed in spite of their size and strength, the contrast is with the independance and majesty of the untamed. Untamed means beyond our control, beyond our beck and call. The essence of our relationship with God is that we cannot lead God around on a leash. God is not tamed by us. But, it is not the only word that the song uses to describe God, is it? I agree that it is only one of the attributes, one related to God's omnipotence, and that the other attributes of Love, omniscience, eternity, omnipresence, must be described with different adjectives.
Posted in: Check Out the Music
Well yes, good question. And I don't know about other consistories in general; only a few. It has been said that heresy creeps into the church quicker thru music than in any other way. Sometimes it is not just whether a song is technically correct theologically or not. Sometimes a very popular song only expresses a very limited aspect of our faith, or of our christian life, and gives us a lopsided christianity. So we need to have a good balance of songs, which is why it is good to have many to choose from. The amount of monitoring also depends sometimes on the spiritual maturity or experience or education of those who choose the songs, and the consistories confidence in their theological background. But I know I tend to have a subconscious evaluation of most songs, trying to evaluate their spiritual impact. But other times I just sing them, especially if they are familiar. I can't be analyzing all of them all the time; it leaves little room then for praise. I mean, just think of some of the Psalms, if someone wrote stuff like that today; parts of Psalm 38, 39. Pslam 40: 12, 14,15. and others. But it all has a place, part of our prayer in song.