I have not said anything till now, being leary of Proverbs 26:4. But having heard DW's analogy what seems like a thousand times, I will only say that I find it personally vicious, pernicious, and malicious. I find her continuous use of it obtuse, and careless of the feelings of others. I find it interesting how she conveniently refuses to answer Doug's question, though she has no trouble answering every other concern, including manufacturing her own sidebars.
She may feel like she is riding the back of the bus, but the church is not a bus, it is not a club, it is not a golf course, and no one has rights to tee times at classis. If she wants to join a golf club instead of a church, she should do so. If she wants to sit at the front of the local bus instead of participating in a church, she should do so.
If her analogy was valid, then she should make that argument to the apostle Paul who asked women to be silent in the church and did not ask men to be silent in the church. She should make that argument to Christ who selected 12 male apostles. She should make that argument to the early church who selected seven men of good repute to be assistants (some call them deacons). She should accuse God of hurting her feelings because the twelve tribes of Israel were based on the sons not daughters of Israel. If the analogy works in one direction, then it should also work in reverse. She implies that because God chose twelve male apostles, He would not golf with blacks in heaven. She implies that because God chose only males to be the heads of the twelve tribes of Isreal, that He would put women at the back of the bus in heaven.
Her comments, and her inability to listen, and her fixation on her own feelings at the expense of scripture, at the expense of recognizing that God and Christ have themselves directly done what would offend her, makes me wonder about a very relevant analogy regarding the women whom Paul told to be silent in the churches, and not to have authority over men.
I feel that she would want christians who treat scripture sincerely and literally, to not only sit at the back of the bus, but to get off the bus and walk. I feel she would want christians who treat scripture sincerely and literally to get off the golf course. I feel she would have been very unhappy with Jesus, if she had met him after he had chosen the twelve apostles. I feel that if you do not follow society in its norms and "rights", that she would want you to leave, to get out of the way. I am sorry that I have to feel that way, but I do.
I have no questions for her, since I believe it would be a miracle for her to make an answer that she has not already made a thousand times before. Further, I am not even slightly interested in an answer that merely puts social pressure on christians to follow social norms, rather than scriptural precedents.
Paul, I believe you are right about how the flood is often perceived, but scripture as you said, does give us a different indication. To me, the flood indicates God's right to judge, and our inability to withstand judgement, outside of the simple grace of God. It is God's right, and our total lack of rights, when it comes to our relationship with God. It is not about just being bad or good. It is about being obedient or disobedient. It is about pride vs righteousness; self vs humility.
It's also about God planning our rescue (100 years of ark building). Thousands of years of messiah promise. Thousands of years of missionaries. Praise the Lord!!!!
One of the things about worship services that can be irritating is the inability to be flexible with time. When we worship together, we are visiting with God. Imagine if you are visiting with friends, and everytime you visit, you would say, oops, time is up, better get out of here, have to get to my coffee and relaxing time at home, to read my book, take my nap, eat my soup, and watch my favorite sport? yet we often seem to have no problem doing this with God.
I would suggest that every service ought to have a flex time built in of perhaps a half-hour (maybe more). If extra time is needed for prayers, then it is there. If extra time is needed to get a wheelchair down the aisle, then it is there. If extra time is needed for a testimony, or a witness about a mission trip or local neighborhood help, then it is there. If extra time is needed for a confession, or profession, or longer sermon, or congregational announcement, then it is there. Our stinginess with time, and our inflexibility with time, is not a good evidence of our desire and joy in worship. Just thinking.....
There is nothing wrong with getting criminal background checks for volunteers. (We have done it in our church). But it merely skims the surface. It is harmful to do it, if people assume they have then fulfilled their responsibility. It misses those who have never been charged or convicted. It misses those who may have never done anything in the past, but might in the future. It taints those whose criminal charge or conviction has nothing to do with abuse of children. It has no way of considering or accounting for those who have truly repented of their misdeed, and have been renewed in faith and life by Christ.
It is something invented by Social Services (government) primarily to cover their legal butts. We should be aware of its serious limitations.
Conduct a good relevant interview, not only on attitudes towards children, but also on what it means to live a life of obedience to Christ. Get two references, if the volunteer position is outside of the local church. In world missions and world relief situations, make sure that workers do not work alone nor travel nor visit alone; this is to protect the workers as much as children, since in some situations workers can be tempted by adults, or their reputations (and god's work) can be sullied by mere rumor and innuendo. When I was in Mexico for two weeks, the local pastor/missionary would not visit women without his wife present, and he took me along to several visits as a substitute chaperone/elder to prevent problems. The same type of policy should be considered for dealing with children, although sometimes a semblance of privacy of conversations may be beneficial, so a common sense solution is required.
The apostles were also regarded as elders. So I don't think there is evidence that deacons were needed before elders.(not that it really matters...). The Acts passage mentions selection of seven men, but as far as I can see does not specifically identify them as deacons.....although we make the assumption that's what they are.
"Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4 but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them."" "
I rather agree with Paul Boice on this, although I understand Eric's concern. Paying attention to the youth does not mean pandering to them; it means treating them as a gift and responsibility from God. God is not a special God of the youth, just like He is not a special god to the poor. God is special to everyone. But God gives the elders, olders, and more mature a responsibility to ensure that they are providing the education and instruction and welcome and respect for the youth and youngers who are God's treasure, loved by God. We must allow these children of whatever age, to come to Christ and sit on his lap, and receive His love. This should be part of the wisdom of the elders and the tradition we create. If we do not do that, then we do not deserve the respect for either the elders, nor for the traditions.
It is not that the youth are more important than the elders. But they are not less important either, to Christ.
As far as a council goes, if there is no distinction in governance between deacons and elders, then there is no need for classes to make a distinction either. But some churches do make a distinction. Still it is interesting that the same word we have translated as deacon comes from diakonos, which is also the word that is often translated as "minister". The term elder as used in the church comes from the greek term presbyteros, although the word episkopos (overseer) also is used to describe the task of the elders. In our church, the elders have the dual roles of elder and deacon, somewhat similar to the very early church. This is mostly because we are a small church.
I don't know why anyone would be upset by being a junior elder. Or a junior pastor. Or a junior deacon. Unless pride gets in the way. I get more upset by elders being restricted from fulfilling their roles. I get upset when elders want to pay someone else to do their jobs.
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
We often think this only refers to the poor and sick and downtrodden. But if in our minds, our children are somehow less important than older people, then this verse also applies to the children. If we neglect the children, then we are neglecting Christ, in essence. And if we care for the children, then we have done it for Christ.
But is it just the gathering church as a group that is responsible? How does this apply to the parents? Often parents do pander to children, and thus spoil them rotten, and teach them that materialism and education and sports and feelings and music and texting are more important than obedience to Christ. Where are the examples of a present day Eric Liddell who refused to run on Sunday because Christ was more important to him than a national or Olympic medal or the approval of his earthly government? How often do we find elders and Christian men spending more time watching the Super Bowl or Stanley Cup than they do leading their sons in spiritual walk with Christ? How often do we find christian men neglecting devotions and prayer in order to spend more time making more money at their career? Do we think that our youth do not notice this?
In our example, and in our priorities, we often neglect the impact on our youth, and we will reap the results. And when we do not neglect the children and their relationship to Christ, then we can also reap the rewards.
Laura, you raise some great points! Made me think about some of the things we do in general. Like taking breaks and vacations, etc. Priorities. Retirement. What does it mean in God's grand scheme?
I know some churches which never take a break from Sunday School. They have Sunday School as often as they have church. It is simply another form of worship. They would not omit it anymore than omit a church service.
Many churches take breaks during summer, and Christmas... but it makes me wonder, maybe we look at this in the wrong way. Would we say we don't need a janitor in the summer months? Yet we don't need sunday school or bible study? What is more important to maintain? Which is more significant to spiritual growth and health?
When people are too busy, is it because sunday school is during church service? or because people are unwilling to make it a priority? or because career and entertainment and sports are more important? Okay, it can be tough sometimes when you have small children, or when older children need transportation to events, etc. But maybe it is about priorities. Perhaps Sunday school classes are more significant and important than praise teams in church, more important than choir, more impacting than the superbowl or American Idol, and more of a ministry than attending diaconal meetings or caregroup get-togethers.
Maybe snowbirds can become young again and teach some of these classes in the summertime when they return to their churches.
I agree with you that the kids appreciate a consistent teacher as much as possible. Switching teachers from week to week is frustrating for them, and leaves them with a sense of a lack of committment.
I have nothing against the story cards or the Dwell curriculum. Any helps we can get can help. But to expand on the transferring faith to family, we just watched the film "Courageous" as a family. And it reminds us that it is not good enough to just be good enough as parents. We need to be better than "good enough". Story cards can be good, but faith is primarily shared in committment. That means that personal faith needs to be shared from parents to children. Daily family devotions. Breakfast devotions. Supper devotions. Evening devotions. Daily committment to faith life. Daily committment to listening to your kids, their joys and problems, and explaining how it relates to their faith, how it relates to God's purpose for them.
Mothers often do this because they seem to have more time to be more involved, and are around when the children are experiencing pressure points. But it is really important for fathers to take a lead, to explain their faith, their faith struggles, their faith victories, their faith committment. Fathers need to step up to the plate in prayer, in care, in being there. Fathers bear the responsibility for the growth of their family's faith and spiritual well-being. The pledge identified in the film "Courageous" could be a good one for fathers to commit to.
Without this committment to share faith in families, sons and daughters will follow their parents lack of committment. Sons and daughters will end up experimenting with pre-marital sex, with drugs, with entertainment, with "shacking up", with crime. They will make money, or career, or self, their primary motivation. Statistics indicate that sons and daughters without fathers are more likely to end up in crime. And who can tell about the impact of fathers who are there, but not all there... who do not share their faith? Who are present in body and absent in spirit?
It should never be said that a single Christian family does not share his faith with his children (not to speak of 85%!!!). And sharing faith between husband and wife. If there is no sharing within the family, perhaps it should be questioned as to whether the faith of those parents is dead and not alive. Do not let your faith be dead. Let it live in you and in your children! Pray for God's blessing! When it gets hard, pray for His Spirit leading and filling!
And for preachers.... this should be a message to proclaim. That our greatest evangelical task as parents is to share our faith with our children in the home. All the preaching in church and teaching in Sunday School will not replace or supplant the influence of the home in faith formation, and in living for Christ.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I have not said anything till now, being leary of Proverbs 26:4. But having heard DW's analogy what seems like a thousand times, I will only say that I find it personally vicious, pernicious, and malicious. I find her continuous use of it obtuse, and careless of the feelings of others. I find it interesting how she conveniently refuses to answer Doug's question, though she has no trouble answering every other concern, including manufacturing her own sidebars.
She may feel like she is riding the back of the bus, but the church is not a bus, it is not a club, it is not a golf course, and no one has rights to tee times at classis. If she wants to join a golf club instead of a church, she should do so. If she wants to sit at the front of the local bus instead of participating in a church, she should do so.
If her analogy was valid, then she should make that argument to the apostle Paul who asked women to be silent in the church and did not ask men to be silent in the church. She should make that argument to Christ who selected 12 male apostles. She should make that argument to the early church who selected seven men of good repute to be assistants (some call them deacons). She should accuse God of hurting her feelings because the twelve tribes of Israel were based on the sons not daughters of Israel. If the analogy works in one direction, then it should also work in reverse. She implies that because God chose twelve male apostles, He would not golf with blacks in heaven. She implies that because God chose only males to be the heads of the twelve tribes of Isreal, that He would put women at the back of the bus in heaven.
Her comments, and her inability to listen, and her fixation on her own feelings at the expense of scripture, at the expense of recognizing that God and Christ have themselves directly done what would offend her, makes me wonder about a very relevant analogy regarding the women whom Paul told to be silent in the churches, and not to have authority over men.
I feel that she would want christians who treat scripture sincerely and literally, to not only sit at the back of the bus, but to get off the bus and walk. I feel she would want christians who treat scripture sincerely and literally to get off the golf course. I feel she would have been very unhappy with Jesus, if she had met him after he had chosen the twelve apostles. I feel that if you do not follow society in its norms and "rights", that she would want you to leave, to get out of the way. I am sorry that I have to feel that way, but I do.
I have no questions for her, since I believe it would be a miracle for her to make an answer that she has not already made a thousand times before. Further, I am not even slightly interested in an answer that merely puts social pressure on christians to follow social norms, rather than scriptural precedents.
Posted in: The Genesis Flood and the Gospel Narrative
Paul, I believe you are right about how the flood is often perceived, but scripture as you said, does give us a different indication. To me, the flood indicates God's right to judge, and our inability to withstand judgement, outside of the simple grace of God. It is God's right, and our total lack of rights, when it comes to our relationship with God. It is not about just being bad or good. It is about being obedient or disobedient. It is about pride vs righteousness; self vs humility.
It's also about God planning our rescue (100 years of ark building). Thousands of years of messiah promise. Thousands of years of missionaries. Praise the Lord!!!!
Posted in: Using Gifts and Planning Worship
One of the things about worship services that can be irritating is the inability to be flexible with time. When we worship together, we are visiting with God. Imagine if you are visiting with friends, and everytime you visit, you would say, oops, time is up, better get out of here, have to get to my coffee and relaxing time at home, to read my book, take my nap, eat my soup, and watch my favorite sport? yet we often seem to have no problem doing this with God.
I would suggest that every service ought to have a flex time built in of perhaps a half-hour (maybe more). If extra time is needed for prayers, then it is there. If extra time is needed to get a wheelchair down the aisle, then it is there. If extra time is needed for a testimony, or a witness about a mission trip or local neighborhood help, then it is there. If extra time is needed for a confession, or profession, or longer sermon, or congregational announcement, then it is there. Our stinginess with time, and our inflexibility with time, is not a good evidence of our desire and joy in worship. Just thinking.....
Posted in: Background Checks for Volunteers?
There is nothing wrong with getting criminal background checks for volunteers. (We have done it in our church). But it merely skims the surface. It is harmful to do it, if people assume they have then fulfilled their responsibility. It misses those who have never been charged or convicted. It misses those who may have never done anything in the past, but might in the future. It taints those whose criminal charge or conviction has nothing to do with abuse of children. It has no way of considering or accounting for those who have truly repented of their misdeed, and have been renewed in faith and life by Christ.
It is something invented by Social Services (government) primarily to cover their legal butts. We should be aware of its serious limitations.
Posted in: Revisioning Youth Ministry
Great article!!! I am copying this and giving a copy to every youth worker, and every parent of youth in our church. Well written!!
Posted in: Background Checks for Volunteers?
Conduct a good relevant interview, not only on attitudes towards children, but also on what it means to live a life of obedience to Christ. Get two references, if the volunteer position is outside of the local church. In world missions and world relief situations, make sure that workers do not work alone nor travel nor visit alone; this is to protect the workers as much as children, since in some situations workers can be tempted by adults, or their reputations (and god's work) can be sullied by mere rumor and innuendo. When I was in Mexico for two weeks, the local pastor/missionary would not visit women without his wife present, and he took me along to several visits as a substitute chaperone/elder to prevent problems. The same type of policy should be considered for dealing with children, although sometimes a semblance of privacy of conversations may be beneficial, so a common sense solution is required.
Posted in: Deacons: An Elder Training Ground
The apostles were also regarded as elders. So I don't think there is evidence that deacons were needed before elders.(not that it really matters...). The Acts passage mentions selection of seven men, but as far as I can see does not specifically identify them as deacons.....although we make the assumption that's what they are.
"Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4 but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them."" "
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth—
The elder, To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the truth.
Both "deacon" and "minister" and "servant" are derived from the greek word "diakonos".
A gift was already presented to elders in Acts 11, before elders were mentioned being appointed in Acts 14.
Posted in: The Most Important Members of Our Congregation
I rather agree with Paul Boice on this, although I understand Eric's concern. Paying attention to the youth does not mean pandering to them; it means treating them as a gift and responsibility from God. God is not a special God of the youth, just like He is not a special god to the poor. God is special to everyone. But God gives the elders, olders, and more mature a responsibility to ensure that they are providing the education and instruction and welcome and respect for the youth and youngers who are God's treasure, loved by God. We must allow these children of whatever age, to come to Christ and sit on his lap, and receive His love. This should be part of the wisdom of the elders and the tradition we create. If we do not do that, then we do not deserve the respect for either the elders, nor for the traditions.
It is not that the youth are more important than the elders. But they are not less important either, to Christ.
Posted in: Deacons: An Elder Training Ground
As far as a council goes, if there is no distinction in governance between deacons and elders, then there is no need for classes to make a distinction either. But some churches do make a distinction. Still it is interesting that the same word we have translated as deacon comes from diakonos, which is also the word that is often translated as "minister". The term elder as used in the church comes from the greek term presbyteros, although the word episkopos (overseer) also is used to describe the task of the elders. In our church, the elders have the dual roles of elder and deacon, somewhat similar to the very early church. This is mostly because we are a small church.
I don't know why anyone would be upset by being a junior elder. Or a junior pastor. Or a junior deacon. Unless pride gets in the way. I get more upset by elders being restricted from fulfilling their roles. I get upset when elders want to pay someone else to do their jobs.
Posted in: The Most Important Members of Our Congregation
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
We often think this only refers to the poor and sick and downtrodden. But if in our minds, our children are somehow less important than older people, then this verse also applies to the children. If we neglect the children, then we are neglecting Christ, in essence. And if we care for the children, then we have done it for Christ.
But is it just the gathering church as a group that is responsible? How does this apply to the parents? Often parents do pander to children, and thus spoil them rotten, and teach them that materialism and education and sports and feelings and music and texting are more important than obedience to Christ. Where are the examples of a present day Eric Liddell who refused to run on Sunday because Christ was more important to him than a national or Olympic medal or the approval of his earthly government? How often do we find elders and Christian men spending more time watching the Super Bowl or Stanley Cup than they do leading their sons in spiritual walk with Christ? How often do we find christian men neglecting devotions and prayer in order to spend more time making more money at their career? Do we think that our youth do not notice this?
In our example, and in our priorities, we often neglect the impact on our youth, and we will reap the results. And when we do not neglect the children and their relationship to Christ, then we can also reap the rewards.
Posted in: Kids' Faith and Adults' Schedules
Laura, you raise some great points! Made me think about some of the things we do in general. Like taking breaks and vacations, etc. Priorities. Retirement. What does it mean in God's grand scheme?
I know some churches which never take a break from Sunday School. They have Sunday School as often as they have church. It is simply another form of worship. They would not omit it anymore than omit a church service.
Many churches take breaks during summer, and Christmas... but it makes me wonder, maybe we look at this in the wrong way. Would we say we don't need a janitor in the summer months? Yet we don't need sunday school or bible study? What is more important to maintain? Which is more significant to spiritual growth and health?
When people are too busy, is it because sunday school is during church service? or because people are unwilling to make it a priority? or because career and entertainment and sports are more important? Okay, it can be tough sometimes when you have small children, or when older children need transportation to events, etc. But maybe it is about priorities. Perhaps Sunday school classes are more significant and important than praise teams in church, more important than choir, more impacting than the superbowl or American Idol, and more of a ministry than attending diaconal meetings or caregroup get-togethers.
Maybe snowbirds can become young again and teach some of these classes in the summertime when they return to their churches.
I agree with you that the kids appreciate a consistent teacher as much as possible. Switching teachers from week to week is frustrating for them, and leaves them with a sense of a lack of committment.
JOhn Z
Posted in: Family Faith Talk
I have nothing against the story cards or the Dwell curriculum. Any helps we can get can help. But to expand on the transferring faith to family, we just watched the film "Courageous" as a family. And it reminds us that it is not good enough to just be good enough as parents. We need to be better than "good enough". Story cards can be good, but faith is primarily shared in committment. That means that personal faith needs to be shared from parents to children. Daily family devotions. Breakfast devotions. Supper devotions. Evening devotions. Daily committment to faith life. Daily committment to listening to your kids, their joys and problems, and explaining how it relates to their faith, how it relates to God's purpose for them.
Mothers often do this because they seem to have more time to be more involved, and are around when the children are experiencing pressure points. But it is really important for fathers to take a lead, to explain their faith, their faith struggles, their faith victories, their faith committment. Fathers need to step up to the plate in prayer, in care, in being there. Fathers bear the responsibility for the growth of their family's faith and spiritual well-being. The pledge identified in the film "Courageous" could be a good one for fathers to commit to.
Without this committment to share faith in families, sons and daughters will follow their parents lack of committment. Sons and daughters will end up experimenting with pre-marital sex, with drugs, with entertainment, with "shacking up", with crime. They will make money, or career, or self, their primary motivation. Statistics indicate that sons and daughters without fathers are more likely to end up in crime. And who can tell about the impact of fathers who are there, but not all there... who do not share their faith? Who are present in body and absent in spirit?
It should never be said that a single Christian family does not share his faith with his children (not to speak of 85%!!!). And sharing faith between husband and wife. If there is no sharing within the family, perhaps it should be questioned as to whether the faith of those parents is dead and not alive. Do not let your faith be dead. Let it live in you and in your children! Pray for God's blessing! When it gets hard, pray for His Spirit leading and filling!
And for preachers.... this should be a message to proclaim. That our greatest evangelical task as parents is to share our faith with our children in the home. All the preaching in church and teaching in Sunday School will not replace or supplant the influence of the home in faith formation, and in living for Christ.