Eligibility of officebearers is ultimately the responsibility of the elders. According to the example of scripture, they chose or made the final decision on nomination of office bearers. If they choose to involve the deacons, then they may do that. If they choose to ask the advice of the congregation, then they may do that as well. In smaller churches, it is advisable to involve the deacons in decision making matters about church governance for the purposes of adding more "heads" to the discussion. In larger churches, this would not be necessary, and would relieve the deacons to carry out their own particular tasks and roles more adequately.
Bill. Interesting you would focus on that. :) One way to find out what others read isn't it? :) Yes, you are right of course, and good for you to point it out. I realized it also after I'd written that, but intended to correct that later. What I really meant by that was that the church order seemed to be designed to accomodate or provide for eligibility for the pension fund. Am I totally off base on that?
In any case, this is not the main issue in this particular discussion. I wanted to mention it as an indication of a different sort of honoring, and this is true whether it is specifically in the church order or not. But the main thing perhaps is that we don't, or maybe no one knows what the phrase "equal in honor" really means? It doesn't seem to mean what it appears to say.
Yes George, your example of synodical decisions was quite diversionary and inappropriate. Your assumption or defintion of "wise leadership" is also merely an assumption, as in the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Wise leadership would assume some agreement or buy-in, but you seem to assume it stands on its own, and that 51% agreement implies wise leadership. That can also be perceived as tyranny by the majority.
As far as how elders, deacons and preachers are elected or appointed, there appear to be various scriptural precedents and methods. It is important that the method to be used is understood and accepted ahead of time, with the understanding and trust that God can use whatever method he chooses to bring about a result that He desires and that is edifying to the church and glorifying to His name. And the council and church ought to do this in prayer and seeking and trusting.
Are blog posts a dangerous trap? I would suggest that they are not as dangerous a trap as an individual preacher or teacher making certain statements or pushing positions in an individual church or council meeting or college classroom. At least blog posts can be accessed by more people and can be addressed by people not under the local influence. They will tend to achieve a much broader perspective and response, which hopefully will provide illumination about the path of truth that God wants us to follow.
Just a thought here. If everyone had the same "gifts" would that mean that some needs would not be met? Perhaps the greatest gifts are always centered around meeting the needs of others, rather than the expectation of self?
I think also that it should be mandatory, or good Christian etiquette, for a congregation who releases a preacher or pastor for budgetary reasons, to make this well-known to all involved as well as to classis and churches of the denomination. If this is not the primary reason, then the truth should not be white-washed, but opportunities to put the rift in context should be sought out.
Just a thought here. If everyone had the same "gifts" would that mean that some needs would not be met? Perhaps the greatest gifts are always centered around meeting the needs of others, rather than the expectation of self?
George, sorry, yes, Randy did bring it up first. He seemed to be a bit more balanced on it, while you referred to 2/3 requirement as rule by minority as a blanket concern, relating mostly to synodical decisions; in any case, selecting elders is a bit different than making a confessional change at a denominational level. Perhaps a better comparison might have been with deposing an elder, or with a single nomination. Would a simple majority be sufficient for this?
It is probably a good idea to involve the existing deacons in the nomination of new deacons. However it is important to realize that in general, the difference in roles between elders and deacons is that elders are called ruling elders. Deacons are not given that mandate or task. When the church order fails to recognize that distinction, the order fails as a point of good order. In small churches it may be that the deacons are also given the responsibility of elders. In other words they are elders who focus on diaconal tasks, but are not limited to them.
In a sense the church order here has illegitimately usurped the authority of the local congregation to decide what portion of the council or consistory would be involved in nominations. The fact is that in most cases the entire congregation is involved anyway, while the final decisions ought to be left to the elders unless they choose to delegate that decision.
If both elders and deacons are listed as members of the board of trustees of the local church, then I would agree that both would have to be involved in the final decision for nominating new members of the board of trustees.
It would be good for the local council to make the decision, given that technically the congregational votes are advice to council. However, in practical terms, if the council has not decided otherwise ahead of time, it would generally feel obligated to follow a simple majority.
Posted in: Which office discusses and decides who is eligible for call to Elders and Deacons?
Eligibility of officebearers is ultimately the responsibility of the elders. According to the example of scripture, they chose or made the final decision on nomination of office bearers. If they choose to involve the deacons, then they may do that. If they choose to ask the advice of the congregation, then they may do that as well. In smaller churches, it is advisable to involve the deacons in decision making matters about church governance for the purposes of adding more "heads" to the discussion. In larger churches, this would not be necessary, and would relieve the deacons to carry out their own particular tasks and roles more adequately.
Posted in: How has the Article 7 change affected those seeking to become Ministers of the Word?
Bill. Interesting you would focus on that. :) One way to find out what others read isn't it? :) Yes, you are right of course, and good for you to point it out. I realized it also after I'd written that, but intended to correct that later. What I really meant by that was that the church order seemed to be designed to accomodate or provide for eligibility for the pension fund. Am I totally off base on that?
In any case, this is not the main issue in this particular discussion. I wanted to mention it as an indication of a different sort of honoring, and this is true whether it is specifically in the church order or not. But the main thing perhaps is that we don't, or maybe no one knows what the phrase "equal in honor" really means? It doesn't seem to mean what it appears to say.
Posted in: What are the guidelines for establishing minimum pass vote percentages?
Yes George, your example of synodical decisions was quite diversionary and inappropriate. Your assumption or defintion of "wise leadership" is also merely an assumption, as in the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Wise leadership would assume some agreement or buy-in, but you seem to assume it stands on its own, and that 51% agreement implies wise leadership. That can also be perceived as tyranny by the majority.
As far as how elders, deacons and preachers are elected or appointed, there appear to be various scriptural precedents and methods. It is important that the method to be used is understood and accepted ahead of time, with the understanding and trust that God can use whatever method he chooses to bring about a result that He desires and that is edifying to the church and glorifying to His name. And the council and church ought to do this in prayer and seeking and trusting.
Posted in: What does it mean "to submit to the judgment of the council, classis, or synod?"
Are blog posts a dangerous trap? I would suggest that they are not as dangerous a trap as an individual preacher or teacher making certain statements or pushing positions in an individual church or council meeting or college classroom. At least blog posts can be accessed by more people and can be addressed by people not under the local influence. They will tend to achieve a much broader perspective and response, which hopefully will provide illumination about the path of truth that God wants us to follow.
Posted in: How does a church shift from "needs-based" to "gifts-based" ministry?
Just a thought here. If everyone had the same "gifts" would that mean that some needs would not be met? Perhaps the greatest gifts are always centered around meeting the needs of others, rather than the expectation of self?
Posted in: What Steps Does a Church Take When It Needs to Dismiss a Pastor It Cannot Afford?
I think also that it should be mandatory, or good Christian etiquette, for a congregation who releases a preacher or pastor for budgetary reasons, to make this well-known to all involved as well as to classis and churches of the denomination. If this is not the primary reason, then the truth should not be white-washed, but opportunities to put the rift in context should be sought out.
Posted in: How does a church shift from "needs-based" to "gifts-based" ministry?
Just a thought here. If everyone had the same "gifts" would that mean that some needs would not be met? Perhaps the greatest gifts are always centered around meeting the needs of others, rather than the expectation of self?
Posted in: What are the guidelines for establishing minimum pass vote percentages?
George, sorry, yes, Randy did bring it up first. He seemed to be a bit more balanced on it, while you referred to 2/3 requirement as rule by minority as a blanket concern, relating mostly to synodical decisions; in any case, selecting elders is a bit different than making a confessional change at a denominational level. Perhaps a better comparison might have been with deposing an elder, or with a single nomination. Would a simple majority be sufficient for this?
Posted in: Which office discusses and decides who is eligible for call to Elders and Deacons?
It is probably a good idea to involve the existing deacons in the nomination of new deacons. However it is important to realize that in general, the difference in roles between elders and deacons is that elders are called ruling elders. Deacons are not given that mandate or task. When the church order fails to recognize that distinction, the order fails as a point of good order. In small churches it may be that the deacons are also given the responsibility of elders. In other words they are elders who focus on diaconal tasks, but are not limited to them.
In a sense the church order here has illegitimately usurped the authority of the local congregation to decide what portion of the council or consistory would be involved in nominations. The fact is that in most cases the entire congregation is involved anyway, while the final decisions ought to be left to the elders unless they choose to delegate that decision.
If both elders and deacons are listed as members of the board of trustees of the local church, then I would agree that both would have to be involved in the final decision for nominating new members of the board of trustees.
Posted in: How does a church shift from "needs-based" to "gifts-based" ministry?
Sometimes the greatest gifts are not talents or abilities. Sometimes opportunities are the greatest gifts.
If you are the only one who can play the piano, it is a gift. If everyone can play the piano, you may not have the opportunity.
Posted in: What are the guidelines for establishing minimum pass vote percentages?
It would be good for the local council to make the decision, given that technically the congregational votes are advice to council. However, in practical terms, if the council has not decided otherwise ahead of time, it would generally feel obligated to follow a simple majority.
Posted in: How can a church make changes to structure while staying within the church order guidelines?
Just a suggestion, Theresa.... break your comments into paragraphs. A run-on paragraph is a bit hard to digest. Lots of good ideas though.