I quite agree Shannon that race is biologically not real. I've thought that all my adult life, if not a bit longer. But unlike you, I don't think I'm racist. Never have been and am not now. No, no, no, that doesn't mean I don't consider myself quite sinful, inclined to hate God and my neighbor as you say, but I'm also not a terrorist, a mysogenist, a burglar, a robber, a drug dealer, or a number of other words, all of which denote rather specific ways of acting out one's sinful state. I have plenty ways I act out my sinful state but acting as a racist or terrorist or drug dealer are not among them.
My question to you is, why do you think you are -- call yourself -- a rscist? I'm not trying to be personal (maybe that is in fact a specific way your fallen nature expresses itself?), but I gather from your article that perhaps you call yourself a racist merely because you are half white (as you say), or merely because you were raised in a culture you apparently equate with white, as you say (I have a bit of a hard time understanding that), or merely because in our society at large you conclude, again as you say, that whites, statistically speaking, have some kind of power advantage over non-whites. But none of these latter "reasons" are cause for you to be designated a racist, nor is your inherent sinful nature.
Unless, of course, the meaning of the word itself, "racism," is changed. But that would be cheating, I submit, in a dictionary definition-strategy kind of way.
I understand the inclination, in a good Calvinist kind of way, to be up front about our sinfulness, but I think it does no good, and does do harm, when we so expand the definitional meaning of a word until it covers anything and everything (like the word "Smurf" in that cartoon with the little blue people).
Now I do believe racism exists and that some people are in fact racist, just as terrorism/terrorists exist or murderous assassination/murderous assassins exists, but it wouldn't do good to call everyone a terrorist or an assassin either. If we call everyone all these specific "ways of sinning," the meaning of the words are lost and we no longer distinguish between sinfulness generally, and specific ways we might, or might not, act out our sinfulness. And that is not helpful either -- at all. Among others things calling everything and everyone "smurf," or "racist," results in losing the idea of the specific thing, as well as the ability to deal with it (how would you deal with the problem of "smurfyness" after all, because you don't know what the problem actually is).
I hear often that "we aren't willing to have honest conversations about race and racism." It would seem that you are. I am too. Let's have a conversation. :-)
Respectfully Larry, I think you are failing to distinguish between biblical admonitions to people and biblical admonitions to governments. I am obliged to be a good neighbor even to those who have committed crimes like theft or drug dealing or even rape or murder. Notwithstanding my obligation to those, government's obligation to those same persons is different. Government is obliged to curb those evils, which may often mean prosecuting and incarcerating those people.
Your and my roles are often quite different than government's role. We may be required to turn the other cheek, but government couldn't do what God would have government do if its policy is turn-the-other-cheek based.
I'm not saying I know that the current administration's policy on this immigration time-out is good policy, but I am saying its duties, responsibilities and obligations are not correctly understood by applying the lesson of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Again, this doesn't mean the administration's policy is good policy, but, as I have suggested, neither you nor I nor the institutional church (nor even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals frankly), are privy to the information required to in order to determine the wisdom of the administration on this policy. Congress gave this power, and the right to have the information, to the executive branch. Some in Congress have the right to the information, and to oversight, but you don't, I don't, and the institutional church doesn't.
Beyond that, there are plenty of neighbors that we can be good Samaritans too. There is no lack there I don't think.
Kent. I read your Think Christian article and commented (negatively) on it. I pretty much agreed with most points in this article. I didn't see the articles as similar.
Thanks for the link to the booklet, Mark. I think its content is excellent.
I don't think it would hurt at all to send a copy, in paper form and perhaps also by email, to the clerk of every local CRC council, and the clerk of every CRC classis.
If all CRC members transformed 90% of their angst about government related politics, and the CRCNA 100% of its, into efforts toward serving directly in their own local areas, whether the disabled or others, much, much more would get done with infinitely more satisfaction.
We don't really have much power at all to overhaul the government, especially at the federal level, in whatever direction. And we'll forever disagree about what that overhaul should be. But our power as a church of Jesus Christ to directly impact the lives of many immediately around us, each in our own communities, is great indeed. And as to that, I really don't see any disagreement at all.
And blessings to you as well Shannon. I have no doubt as to the orientation of your heart, even where we might disagree. To me, that tension is in a way an essential characteristic of the church. I'm glad we are both in CRC.
And if ever you want that public, "honest conversation about racism," you know where to find me. :-)
Shannon. Thanks for the response. Who knows, maybe you are racist. :-) But let's take the examples one at a time and explore them.
First, your childhood impression of what made for pretty. I was at coffee this morning and talked to the 20-ish young woman that usually serves me. She is white, a Christian, working while going to school, not Dutch, not CRC. We discussed my question to her: "are you racist?" Setting aside for a moment her general response, we also discussed perceptions of physical attractiveness, using your example as a springboard. With a bit of a laugh she said she generally considered darker skin people to be more attractive than lighter skinned people, all other things being equal.
I didn't tell her this but understood, because, frankly, I perceive (as pretty) likewise. I also prefer darker hair to blonde hair, and brown eyes to blue. And I really think freckles are unattractive (sorry to any offended by that). My friend's explanation for her darker skinned preference was "I just do, just like my favorite color is red." My favorite color is blue, not red like my friend's, although I think small cars are best looking in red.
So here's the question. Are you sure your sense, when a child, that lighter skin is prettier is evidence of racism? And then this question. What do you make of my and my young friend's contrary sense of physical attractiveness? Might that be evidence that we are not racist?
I'm not intending to ignore your other 3 points, and will respond in other posts. But I want to stop here in this post so we can have a more focused conversation.
If "being missional ... is simply what the church is," as this article says, it is no wonder the word has always perplexed me. I'm disinclined to add modifiers to words when the modifier means what the word intended to be modified means. When others do that, I have this itch to discover the additional meaning the modifier brings to the word being modified, but it would seem that in this case there is none?
Larry: Just as to your #1, abstract concepts ("ruthless capitalism") don't violate commandments, even if people do. "Capitalism" literally and merely refers to the idea that if one does not consume all that one earns but saves some to invest, that "capital" will generally increase future return, proportionate to the amount invested and not consumed. (Many poor people have used that methodology to become not poor -- I did, having literally nothing when entering my adult life).
OK sure, there are all kinds of other imprecise definitions of "capitalism," but those definitions are just political rants or epithets being thrown about. A "free market economy," a phrased that many would syntactically equate with "capitalism," ruthless or otherwise, and one I would prefer to use instead of word "capitalism," means that the government declines to use the power of the sword to force its citizens to "not be selfish." I think I ought not be selfish, that being selfish violates God's law, but yet I don't think government should restrain me (or others) if I (or others) choose to be selfish, by pointing a gun (or sword) at my head, even if government should restrain me from entering the home of another and taking his money.
This is the difficulty of preaching about broadly labeled political ideas. It can be done, but ...
Where this article "gets it very right" is when it divides two questions: (1) what should the institutional church proclaim about government policy on immigration?; and (2) what should "we" do when there are people in need that come to our lives?
As to #1, the answer is nothing.
As to #2, the answer is to show them love, regard them as the Good Samaritan regarded the injured man on the road.
These two answers are not contradictory, and perhaps that is where factions in the CRC disagree.
Where I cringed when reading this article was where the author, after expressing appropriate concern about politicizing the institutional church, then purports to be an expert on this administration's immigration policy, citing a source at an embedded links which did not effectively support his claim of expertise in any way.
I'm not claiming that expertise myself. What I would suggest, though, is that it is extremely difficult (even impossible) even for persons who very seriously track these issues to formulate meaningful opinions about what governmental policy on these issues should or should not be. Why? For the simple reason that we lack information. We don't get the briefings from the CIA or the NSA or Homeland Security or the FBI or from closed door sessions of certain House or Senate committees or subcommittees. And for good reasons.
Which means the best we can usually do is guess about what good government policy should or should not specifically be.
In contrast, I can analyze the Ninth Circuit's recent ruling denying a stay on the federal District Court Judge's order granting the State of Washington's motion for a TRO as to the President's recently issued Executive Order. Why? Because the District Judge's decision and order are public, the Ninth Circuit's decision and opinion are public, the President's EO is public, and I happen to have the occupational training and experience to meaningfully read them and analyze them. But with all of that, I still have to say "I frankly don't know" in answer to the question, "was the President's EO wise or at least warranty, and good public policy?," again because I don't know that underlying facts, again because I simply cannot (will not be allowed to) know them.
Nor can the author of this article know these necessary facts, which is why I applaud his suggestion to not politicize the institutional church but then cringe when he suggests he has more ability to conclude about the President's wisdom in creating these executive orders than he possibly can.
What I hope, and pray, is that under new leadership, political lobbying and other political spoutings off about what government is doing, as opposed to what we are doing, becomes a much, much lower priority for OSJ. After all, it is not the case that CRC members are in lockstep as to their theories of the role of government, economics and international relationships, and it is the case that the CRC has Article 28 in its Church Order.
How this institutional church (CRC) and its members might respond to those suffering from injustice, hungry, and in need of mercy is beyond a big enough task for us to take on. We don't need to also take on political lobbying, as if there is nothing else that we can uniquely do (because there is lots of that) or as if we haven't covenanted together to be an ecclesiastical, and not a political, institution (because we have, see CO Art. 28).
Shannon: You point to a CNN article that suggests there is a statistical preference in the population for lighter skin pigmentation. While that article may be informative in some respects, it only purports to address a broad statistical reality, not a person-by-person, or individual, reality. One of the critical questions in our conversation is: "are we all, each of us, racist?" You seem to me to say "yes" to that question, while I would answer "no. Your link to the CNN articles addresses a broad statistical question but not the question I'm asking about here.
To recall, I asked, "What do you make of my and my young friend's contrary sense of physical attractiveness? Might that be evidence that we are not racist?"
What is your answer to these two questions? If your answer is, "I suspect if you talk with lots of white women you would hear similar things, but that is unrelated to racism," as you say in your most recent response post, I'm not understanding your answer. You cite your childhood perception that people with light hair and blue eyes are more attractive as not only "related to racism" but as affirmative evidence of your individual racism. So I've presented two white people (me and my 20-ish female friend at the coffee shop) who both perceive that those with darker skin and brown eyes (me as to the eyes at least) are more attractive, all other things being equal. If your childhood perception was "related to racism" and evidence of it, then our perception must be related in some way as well, not?
While I thank you for the reference to books on racism (and I saw that 2010 Anderson Cooper/CNN segment back when it first came out), I don't perceive myself lacking information about racism, nor lacking in time thinking about racism. I may have more experience with the the questions than you might think, but I may have formulated different conclusions than you have. Indeed, it seems clear to me that I have, which is why I'm wanting to have a conversation about it.
Shannon. OK. I wasn't so "interested in learning," except that any exchange can result in learning, as I was interested in having a meaningful conversation. And I'm not arguing the same points that you have responded to, only reiterating when you decline to respond to mine.
This theme of "we are all racists, individually and collectively," seems to be a popular meme these days in the denominational apparatus. There is a recent Banner article on "white guilt," plus a Banner editorial on the same subject, and now your article here on the Network.
I've always thought the Network was intended to be a place for conversations among CRC members, even those who hadn't personally met. I've also often heard the message that "we aren't willing to have an honest conversation about race." Given all of that, I thought this would be a good time and place to have such a conversation, publicly (as your article is public), and that the conversation could be beneficial to the body (those that read Network articles and posts at least).
In terms of free time, I have a pretty full-time day job, practicing law, and doing quite a bit beyond that (right now, building an addition onto a rental I own, getting a bathroom fixed in another rental, working with a surveyor and the county to get a lot line adjustment on property needed to do the addition, taking care of a neighborhood park, and more). I say this to indicate I see this conversation as needed, not something I engage in because I need to pass the time. To be more blunt, you may be mistaken when you suggest you work a lot as a pastor, that I don't in my job, and so I have time to do this while you don't. I'm making the time because I believe this is important. Apparently, you don't think so and that is of course your prerogative.
Posted in: Hello, My Name Is. . . Racist
I quite agree Shannon that race is biologically not real. I've thought that all my adult life, if not a bit longer. But unlike you, I don't think I'm racist. Never have been and am not now. No, no, no, that doesn't mean I don't consider myself quite sinful, inclined to hate God and my neighbor as you say, but I'm also not a terrorist, a mysogenist, a burglar, a robber, a drug dealer, or a number of other words, all of which denote rather specific ways of acting out one's sinful state. I have plenty ways I act out my sinful state but acting as a racist or terrorist or drug dealer are not among them.
My question to you is, why do you think you are -- call yourself -- a rscist? I'm not trying to be personal (maybe that is in fact a specific way your fallen nature expresses itself?), but I gather from your article that perhaps you call yourself a racist merely because you are half white (as you say), or merely because you were raised in a culture you apparently equate with white, as you say (I have a bit of a hard time understanding that), or merely because in our society at large you conclude, again as you say, that whites, statistically speaking, have some kind of power advantage over non-whites. But none of these latter "reasons" are cause for you to be designated a racist, nor is your inherent sinful nature.
Unless, of course, the meaning of the word itself, "racism," is changed. But that would be cheating, I submit, in a dictionary definition-strategy kind of way.
I understand the inclination, in a good Calvinist kind of way, to be up front about our sinfulness, but I think it does no good, and does do harm, when we so expand the definitional meaning of a word until it covers anything and everything (like the word "Smurf" in that cartoon with the little blue people).
Now I do believe racism exists and that some people are in fact racist, just as terrorism/terrorists exist or murderous assassination/murderous assassins exists, but it wouldn't do good to call everyone a terrorist or an assassin either. If we call everyone all these specific "ways of sinning," the meaning of the words are lost and we no longer distinguish between sinfulness generally, and specific ways we might, or might not, act out our sinfulness. And that is not helpful either -- at all. Among others things calling everything and everyone "smurf," or "racist," results in losing the idea of the specific thing, as well as the ability to deal with it (how would you deal with the problem of "smurfyness" after all, because you don't know what the problem actually is).
I hear often that "we aren't willing to have honest conversations about race and racism." It would seem that you are. I am too. Let's have a conversation. :-)
Posted in: How Should the Church Respond to Trump’s Travel Ban?
Respectfully Larry, I think you are failing to distinguish between biblical admonitions to people and biblical admonitions to governments. I am obliged to be a good neighbor even to those who have committed crimes like theft or drug dealing or even rape or murder. Notwithstanding my obligation to those, government's obligation to those same persons is different. Government is obliged to curb those evils, which may often mean prosecuting and incarcerating those people.
Your and my roles are often quite different than government's role. We may be required to turn the other cheek, but government couldn't do what God would have government do if its policy is turn-the-other-cheek based.
I'm not saying I know that the current administration's policy on this immigration time-out is good policy, but I am saying its duties, responsibilities and obligations are not correctly understood by applying the lesson of the parable of the Good Samaritan. Again, this doesn't mean the administration's policy is good policy, but, as I have suggested, neither you nor I nor the institutional church (nor even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals frankly), are privy to the information required to in order to determine the wisdom of the administration on this policy. Congress gave this power, and the right to have the information, to the executive branch. Some in Congress have the right to the information, and to oversight, but you don't, I don't, and the institutional church doesn't.
Beyond that, there are plenty of neighbors that we can be good Samaritans too. There is no lack there I don't think.
Posted in: How Should the Church Respond to Trump’s Travel Ban?
Kent. I read your Think Christian article and commented (negatively) on it. I pretty much agreed with most points in this article. I didn't see the articles as similar.
Posted in: How Will People With Disabilities Fare in Trump’s America?
Thanks for the link to the booklet, Mark. I think its content is excellent.
I don't think it would hurt at all to send a copy, in paper form and perhaps also by email, to the clerk of every local CRC council, and the clerk of every CRC classis.
If all CRC members transformed 90% of their angst about government related politics, and the CRCNA 100% of its, into efforts toward serving directly in their own local areas, whether the disabled or others, much, much more would get done with infinitely more satisfaction.
We don't really have much power at all to overhaul the government, especially at the federal level, in whatever direction. And we'll forever disagree about what that overhaul should be. But our power as a church of Jesus Christ to directly impact the lives of many immediately around us, each in our own communities, is great indeed. And as to that, I really don't see any disagreement at all.
Posted in: Hello, My Name Is. . . Racist
And blessings to you as well Shannon. I have no doubt as to the orientation of your heart, even where we might disagree. To me, that tension is in a way an essential characteristic of the church. I'm glad we are both in CRC.
And if ever you want that public, "honest conversation about racism," you know where to find me. :-)
Posted in: Hello, My Name Is. . . Racist
Shannon. Thanks for the response. Who knows, maybe you are racist. :-) But let's take the examples one at a time and explore them.
First, your childhood impression of what made for pretty. I was at coffee this morning and talked to the 20-ish young woman that usually serves me. She is white, a Christian, working while going to school, not Dutch, not CRC. We discussed my question to her: "are you racist?" Setting aside for a moment her general response, we also discussed perceptions of physical attractiveness, using your example as a springboard. With a bit of a laugh she said she generally considered darker skin people to be more attractive than lighter skinned people, all other things being equal.
I didn't tell her this but understood, because, frankly, I perceive (as pretty) likewise. I also prefer darker hair to blonde hair, and brown eyes to blue. And I really think freckles are unattractive (sorry to any offended by that). My friend's explanation for her darker skinned preference was "I just do, just like my favorite color is red." My favorite color is blue, not red like my friend's, although I think small cars are best looking in red.
So here's the question. Are you sure your sense, when a child, that lighter skin is prettier is evidence of racism? And then this question. What do you make of my and my young friend's contrary sense of physical attractiveness? Might that be evidence that we are not racist?
I'm not intending to ignore your other 3 points, and will respond in other posts. But I want to stop here in this post so we can have a more focused conversation.
Posted in: Understanding Our Missional Identity
Color me as one of those confused.
If "being missional ... is simply what the church is," as this article says, it is no wonder the word has always perplexed me. I'm disinclined to add modifiers to words when the modifier means what the word intended to be modified means. When others do that, I have this itch to discover the additional meaning the modifier brings to the word being modified, but it would seem that in this case there is none?
Yes, confused.
Posted in: How Should the Church Respond to Trump’s Travel Ban?
Larry: Just as to your #1, abstract concepts ("ruthless capitalism") don't violate commandments, even if people do. "Capitalism" literally and merely refers to the idea that if one does not consume all that one earns but saves some to invest, that "capital" will generally increase future return, proportionate to the amount invested and not consumed. (Many poor people have used that methodology to become not poor -- I did, having literally nothing when entering my adult life).
OK sure, there are all kinds of other imprecise definitions of "capitalism," but those definitions are just political rants or epithets being thrown about. A "free market economy," a phrased that many would syntactically equate with "capitalism," ruthless or otherwise, and one I would prefer to use instead of word "capitalism," means that the government declines to use the power of the sword to force its citizens to "not be selfish." I think I ought not be selfish, that being selfish violates God's law, but yet I don't think government should restrain me (or others) if I (or others) choose to be selfish, by pointing a gun (or sword) at my head, even if government should restrain me from entering the home of another and taking his money.
This is the difficulty of preaching about broadly labeled political ideas. It can be done, but ...
Posted in: How Should the Church Respond to Trump’s Travel Ban?
Where this article "gets it very right" is when it divides two questions: (1) what should the institutional church proclaim about government policy on immigration?; and (2) what should "we" do when there are people in need that come to our lives?
As to #1, the answer is nothing.
As to #2, the answer is to show them love, regard them as the Good Samaritan regarded the injured man on the road.
These two answers are not contradictory, and perhaps that is where factions in the CRC disagree.
Where I cringed when reading this article was where the author, after expressing appropriate concern about politicizing the institutional church, then purports to be an expert on this administration's immigration policy, citing a source at an embedded links which did not effectively support his claim of expertise in any way.
I'm not claiming that expertise myself. What I would suggest, though, is that it is extremely difficult (even impossible) even for persons who very seriously track these issues to formulate meaningful opinions about what governmental policy on these issues should or should not be. Why? For the simple reason that we lack information. We don't get the briefings from the CIA or the NSA or Homeland Security or the FBI or from closed door sessions of certain House or Senate committees or subcommittees. And for good reasons.
Which means the best we can usually do is guess about what good government policy should or should not specifically be.
In contrast, I can analyze the Ninth Circuit's recent ruling denying a stay on the federal District Court Judge's order granting the State of Washington's motion for a TRO as to the President's recently issued Executive Order. Why? Because the District Judge's decision and order are public, the Ninth Circuit's decision and opinion are public, the President's EO is public, and I happen to have the occupational training and experience to meaningfully read them and analyze them. But with all of that, I still have to say "I frankly don't know" in answer to the question, "was the President's EO wise or at least warranty, and good public policy?," again because I don't know that underlying facts, again because I simply cannot (will not be allowed to) know them.
Nor can the author of this article know these necessary facts, which is why I applaud his suggestion to not politicize the institutional church but then cringe when he suggests he has more ability to conclude about the President's wisdom in creating these executive orders than he possibly can.
Posted in: Big News at the Office of Social Justice and the Office of Race Relations
What I hope, and pray, is that under new leadership, political lobbying and other political spoutings off about what government is doing, as opposed to what we are doing, becomes a much, much lower priority for OSJ. After all, it is not the case that CRC members are in lockstep as to their theories of the role of government, economics and international relationships, and it is the case that the CRC has Article 28 in its Church Order.
How this institutional church (CRC) and its members might respond to those suffering from injustice, hungry, and in need of mercy is beyond a big enough task for us to take on. We don't need to also take on political lobbying, as if there is nothing else that we can uniquely do (because there is lots of that) or as if we haven't covenanted together to be an ecclesiastical, and not a political, institution (because we have, see CO Art. 28).
Posted in: Hello, My Name Is. . . Racist
Shannon: You point to a CNN article that suggests there is a statistical preference in the population for lighter skin pigmentation. While that article may be informative in some respects, it only purports to address a broad statistical reality, not a person-by-person, or individual, reality. One of the critical questions in our conversation is: "are we all, each of us, racist?" You seem to me to say "yes" to that question, while I would answer "no. Your link to the CNN articles addresses a broad statistical question but not the question I'm asking about here.
To recall, I asked, "What do you make of my and my young friend's contrary sense of physical attractiveness? Might that be evidence that we are not racist?"
What is your answer to these two questions? If your answer is, "I suspect if you talk with lots of white women you would hear similar things, but that is unrelated to racism," as you say in your most recent response post, I'm not understanding your answer. You cite your childhood perception that people with light hair and blue eyes are more attractive as not only "related to racism" but as affirmative evidence of your individual racism. So I've presented two white people (me and my 20-ish female friend at the coffee shop) who both perceive that those with darker skin and brown eyes (me as to the eyes at least) are more attractive, all other things being equal. If your childhood perception was "related to racism" and evidence of it, then our perception must be related in some way as well, not?
While I thank you for the reference to books on racism (and I saw that 2010 Anderson Cooper/CNN segment back when it first came out), I don't perceive myself lacking information about racism, nor lacking in time thinking about racism. I may have more experience with the the questions than you might think, but I may have formulated different conclusions than you have. Indeed, it seems clear to me that I have, which is why I'm wanting to have a conversation about it.
Posted in: Hello, My Name Is. . . Racist
Shannon. OK. I wasn't so "interested in learning," except that any exchange can result in learning, as I was interested in having a meaningful conversation. And I'm not arguing the same points that you have responded to, only reiterating when you decline to respond to mine.
This theme of "we are all racists, individually and collectively," seems to be a popular meme these days in the denominational apparatus. There is a recent Banner article on "white guilt," plus a Banner editorial on the same subject, and now your article here on the Network.
I've always thought the Network was intended to be a place for conversations among CRC members, even those who hadn't personally met. I've also often heard the message that "we aren't willing to have an honest conversation about race." Given all of that, I thought this would be a good time and place to have such a conversation, publicly (as your article is public), and that the conversation could be beneficial to the body (those that read Network articles and posts at least).
In terms of free time, I have a pretty full-time day job, practicing law, and doing quite a bit beyond that (right now, building an addition onto a rental I own, getting a bathroom fixed in another rental, working with a surveyor and the county to get a lot line adjustment on property needed to do the addition, taking care of a neighborhood park, and more). I say this to indicate I see this conversation as needed, not something I engage in because I need to pass the time. To be more blunt, you may be mistaken when you suggest you work a lot as a pastor, that I don't in my job, and so I have time to do this while you don't. I'm making the time because I believe this is important. Apparently, you don't think so and that is of course your prerogative.