Mark, I apologize for coming late to the discussion on your earlier post, “Mental Illness or Moral Illness?” For anyone hitting this post first, go see what’s been written over here, as well as comments ( http://network.crcna.org/content/disability-concerns/mental-illness-or-moral-illness ). You’ve accurately addressed the pitfalls of defining a consensus on “evil” from a health professional position. Good work, Mark. Thanks.
Well, so much for 2 equally-accepted hermeneutical positions. However, I do feel a massive sense of freedom now that I can dismiss much of the Bible in my next sermon. To know that my contemporary views of culture outweigh Jesus’ is very empowering! Thanks for this post.
It's a generous position, Paul. However, I really don't see how this is going to subside. The root of all of this is hermeneutical, and nobody is giving up that ground easily. It is not the case that all the people who see a universal cultural application regarding gender have left the denomination. MANY remain, but are not willing to break the denomination again to press their view. Instead, they are content to wait for God to show the other side their error.
As long as we're all willing to let everyone else be wrong in their hermeneutics and still call each other "family," then we're a fairly quiet bunch. You see from this post, once someone advocates eliminating the opposite hermeneutic (especially through denominational government), the division is not re-opened, but exposed for what it has always been.
Bev, I don't believe that anyone is disputing the gifts of the Holy Spirit to both men and women. This is obviously something that has scriptural witness from the New Testament. However, this was true without women holding office in the Church.
If you're making the case that the Holy Spirit is now doing something new, and to listen to him is to do something that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus and the apostles, then you are making the case for ruling out scripture as a guide for the church in many areas of life. I don't know if I can go with you down that road.
On the other hand, if that's not the road you're going down, then please explain further.
I'm not sure how to answer the idea of informally adressing official bodies. To make a table "official" without "official" participants may be a problem in semantics (brown is the new black, etc.), and may not offer a real solution. Not much of this is nitpicked in scripture, so many ways of solving the problem may be relative to each congregation, giving each classis a unique flavor (although your 'snarkyness' is well recieved and understood). The questions that need answering seem to be, ‘how are prophets identified?' and 'how is prophecy received by congregations and classes?' To answer this problem certainly requires wisdom and a spirit of edification (gifts of the Spirit themselves).
In our congregation, all sorts of stuff filters up to classis from the council, which is informed by committees (men & women with a council representative), personal visits and written statements from anyone in the congregation. While our council is male (due to scripture), the information we recieve comes from all sources in the congregation on all topics without a preference to male 'prophetic' insight over female 'prophetic' insight. Therefore, there is no "women's table" at our council, precisely because is the council's responsibility – inherent to their office – to actively consider all of the congregational needs and expressions, as well as relating that voice to classis. LIke I said above, this requires wisdom and a spirit of edification, which may be more powerful in some council members than in others. I am a relatively new pastor in my congregation, but as I have seen the Spirit working here I have personally asked certain women with specific gifts to move forward with programs and consider serviing on committees where their gifts will be used and treasured, as well as encouraging and training the council to creatively use the gifts of the whole congregation.
Hopefully, your council and classis are open to hearing these voices and creatively opening all sorts of avenues to edify the local congregation(s) and promote Christ's gospel in the hearts of those in your community – it is their responsibility! If that is not the case, then I understand the frustration. I have preached from the pulpit, specifically to the men, that it should not come as a shock to them that women made in the image of God should wish to see mercy and justice done in our family – and will become more active in realizing those evidences of the kingdom when the men abandon their calling and responsibility.
I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think “The Christian Reformed Church” uniformly believes and/or understands that Climate Change is a ‘threat.’ Many people in the denomination believe it, and many others do not. Maybe we need some better information on what exactly is going on and why. I understand that there have been some great videos produced by OSJ already, but I also believe there needs to be something that takes into account a lot of the questions about ‘climate change’ (which used to be ‘global warming,’ but now isn't) and puts it into perspective.
For example, Al Gore said the world would be chaos by now – but it’s not (not the way he made it out to be). So, did all our environmental efforts since ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ buy us an extra 5 years? 10? How would you scientifically calculate that? If you can’t scientifically calculate that, then how are we to understand what our problem really is? How do we know certain changes in ‘climate’ are really due to carbon – and can we actually reduce enough carbon emissions to effect change? Can China?
We can sign a bunch of stuff, but without a broad agreement on what’s going on we will not have a broad agreement on how to fix the problem.
Let’s bring the work of the denomination back to a local congregation-focus: appoint a council or classis to study ‘Issue X’ and present their findings to Synod.
Posted in: Diagnosing Evil
Mark, I apologize for coming late to the discussion on your earlier post, “Mental Illness or Moral Illness?” For anyone hitting this post first, go see what’s been written over here, as well as comments ( http://network.crcna.org/content/disability-concerns/mental-illness-or-moral-illness ). You’ve accurately addressed the pitfalls of defining a consensus on “evil” from a health professional position. Good work, Mark. Thanks.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Are we seriously giving this much space to silencing hermeneutical opponents by eliminating denominational structure?
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Well, so much for 2 equally-accepted hermeneutical positions. However, I do feel a massive sense of freedom now that I can dismiss much of the Bible in my next sermon. To know that my contemporary views of culture outweigh Jesus’ is very empowering! Thanks for this post.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
It's a generous position, Paul. However, I really don't see how this is going to subside. The root of all of this is hermeneutical, and nobody is giving up that ground easily. It is not the case that all the people who see a universal cultural application regarding gender have left the denomination. MANY remain, but are not willing to break the denomination again to press their view. Instead, they are content to wait for God to show the other side their error.
As long as we're all willing to let everyone else be wrong in their hermeneutics and still call each other "family," then we're a fairly quiet bunch. You see from this post, once someone advocates eliminating the opposite hermeneutic (especially through denominational government), the division is not re-opened, but exposed for what it has always been.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
And on it goes. This post proves why we need a multi-level denominational authority structure.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Bev, I don't believe that anyone is disputing the gifts of the Holy Spirit to both men and women. This is obviously something that has scriptural witness from the New Testament. However, this was true without women holding office in the Church.
If you're making the case that the Holy Spirit is now doing something new, and to listen to him is to do something that breaks with the teaching and actions of Jesus and the apostles, then you are making the case for ruling out scripture as a guide for the church in many areas of life. I don't know if I can go with you down that road.
On the other hand, if that's not the road you're going down, then please explain further.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Thanks, Bev! That does help a lot.
I'm not sure how to answer the idea of informally adressing official bodies. To make a table "official" without "official" participants may be a problem in semantics (brown is the new black, etc.), and may not offer a real solution. Not much of this is nitpicked in scripture, so many ways of solving the problem may be relative to each congregation, giving each classis a unique flavor (although your 'snarkyness' is well recieved and understood). The questions that need answering seem to be, ‘how are prophets identified?' and 'how is prophecy received by congregations and classes?' To answer this problem certainly requires wisdom and a spirit of edification (gifts of the Spirit themselves).
In our congregation, all sorts of stuff filters up to classis from the council, which is informed by committees (men & women with a council representative), personal visits and written statements from anyone in the congregation. While our council is male (due to scripture), the information we recieve comes from all sources in the congregation on all topics without a preference to male 'prophetic' insight over female 'prophetic' insight. Therefore, there is no "women's table" at our council, precisely because is the council's responsibility – inherent to their office – to actively consider all of the congregational needs and expressions, as well as relating that voice to classis. LIke I said above, this requires wisdom and a spirit of edification, which may be more powerful in some council members than in others. I am a relatively new pastor in my congregation, but as I have seen the Spirit working here I have personally asked certain women with specific gifts to move forward with programs and consider serviing on committees where their gifts will be used and treasured, as well as encouraging and training the council to creatively use the gifts of the whole congregation.
Hopefully, your council and classis are open to hearing these voices and creatively opening all sorts of avenues to edify the local congregation(s) and promote Christ's gospel in the hearts of those in your community – it is their responsibility! If that is not the case, then I understand the frustration. I have preached from the pulpit, specifically to the men, that it should not come as a shock to them that women made in the image of God should wish to see mercy and justice done in our family – and will become more active in realizing those evidences of the kingdom when the men abandon their calling and responsibility.
Posted in: Does Your Church Have a "Little Free Library"?
This is a great idea!
Posted in: Let’s Partner Toward COP 21
I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think “The Christian Reformed Church” uniformly believes and/or understands that Climate Change is a ‘threat.’ Many people in the denomination believe it, and many others do not. Maybe we need some better information on what exactly is going on and why. I understand that there have been some great videos produced by OSJ already, but I also believe there needs to be something that takes into account a lot of the questions about ‘climate change’ (which used to be ‘global warming,’ but now isn't) and puts it into perspective.
For example, Al Gore said the world would be chaos by now – but it’s not (not the way he made it out to be). So, did all our environmental efforts since ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ buy us an extra 5 years? 10? How would you scientifically calculate that? If you can’t scientifically calculate that, then how are we to understand what our problem really is? How do we know certain changes in ‘climate’ are really due to carbon – and can we actually reduce enough carbon emissions to effect change? Can China?
We can sign a bunch of stuff, but without a broad agreement on what’s going on we will not have a broad agreement on how to fix the problem.
Posted in: Agenda for Synod Review (May Contain Spoilers)
Let’s bring the work of the denomination back to a local congregation-focus: appoint a council or classis to study ‘Issue X’ and present their findings to Synod.