It seems to me that this discussion is closely tied to the tension of immanence and transcendence. God's immanence leads us to a sincere and close relationship with a God for whom there is no pretense, no pretending. If we prize our clothes and outward presentation, we may miss real intimate communing with God. God's transcendence leads us to a proper sense of awe, creaturely unworthiness, and honor. If we feel like it is appropriate to approach God with no sense of propriety whatsoever, we do not honor his holiness. We know full well in other areas of life that simply showing up is not enough. We honor a wedding couple by wearing clothes appropriate for the celebration. We honor dignitaries by presenting ourselves with propriety. Scripture teaches us both that God is near, familiar, and intimate as well as God being high and lofty, worthy of great honor, and due only the best we have to offer.
I'm sympathetic to your financial dilemma I would encourage you not to "shake your fist at God", as it were, but rather look around for how God may yet provide for you. It seems to me that it would be entirely appropriate for you to speak with the deacons of your church concerning your dilemma, for they are God's ministers of mercy to you. They may be able to help with some combination of benevolent giving and budgeting help to provide for eventually retiring this burden completely. Oftentimes in the Christian life God does not intervene or provide in miraculous supernatural ways, but through very ordinary means such as the love and care of the body of Christ. May you be blessed in this way through your local church body, and may you again be encouraged in the loving provision of your Heavenly Father.
So, Roger, I hear you saying that the Christian message is foolishness to the secularist. Where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right:
I Corinthians 1:18-25 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[fn] to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
Hi Shannon. No, we have never met each other, but i have read a lot of what you have written, and you have a digital footprint that makes parts of your life story "knowable". For instance, in one article (https://www.thebanner.org/departments/2017/01/getting-to-know-your-muslim-neighbors) you describe yourself as an "Arab American and daughter of a Muslim". It is this type of background as well as emphases of articles that you write that lead me to conclude that you have an understandable passion for Palestine and the Middle East. You are free to correct me if I am mistaken. I do not begrudge you that passion at all, and I intended no negative connotation in making that note. In fact, I think it admirable for you to speak concerning subjects about which you may have passion. I was merely saying that in the context of noting that other Christians will have other areas of passion, and it is also totally fine for them to focus there energies there.
Hi again Shannon. Statements such as "It’s time for us to stop talking about justice, and to do justice" carry an implicit message of either/or. I will concede that you did not explicitly posit that one necessarily excludes the other, but it seems to me that if you simply wanted to encourage justice action, there was no need to couch that call within a simultaneous call to stop talking about it.
I'm also not convinced that you are in a position to judge that Christians are spending too little time doing justice. Are you shadowing the lives of a significant number of Christians that you can make this statement? Just because Christians aren't doing justice in ways that are visible or acceptable to you does not mean that they are not doing it early and often.
It also seems curious that you posit talking and doing as somehow unrelated. One of the main messages of the OSJ is that talking *is* doing. The OSJ has innumerable articles, tweets, etc. that spur church members on to talking about/advocating about justice issues as a form of justice action. The "Do Justice" blog is full of such calls. Hence my confusion at the focus of your article. If your article had been basically a call to "spur one another on toward love and good deeds" ala Hebrews 10:24, you would have garnered a hearty amen from me. It was the call to "stop talking" (as if this talking is keeping Christians from acts of justice) and the ungracious/unfounded implied judgment that Christians aren't doing acts of justice if you can't see them or if they don't meet your priorities that led me to challenge the article a bit.
I agree with this statement. I think that we can both recognize distinct definitions of different theological terms and their necessary interrelatedness. I cannot imagine the concept of peace without the presence of justice. Injustice does break shalom, as I understand it. That does not mean at all that justice can be flattened out to be essentially the pursuit of shalom. Both terms are more complex and distinct than that, even as they are inextricably linked.
Right, and I'm saying that some of how you issued your call to action is odd and communicates things that are not necessarily helpful and perhaps you did not intend.
Here's the difference you left out, Roger: God did indeed punish the law breaking, but in the person of his Son. Thus he is just and the justifier. Remember, we are now seen as being perfectly righteous, as if we had never broken the law. The police officer in the example was not just, because he simply excused the offense. God does no such thing.
Posted in: What Is the Unofficial Dress Code at Your Church? Does it Matter?
It seems to me that this discussion is closely tied to the tension of immanence and transcendence. God's immanence leads us to a sincere and close relationship with a God for whom there is no pretense, no pretending. If we prize our clothes and outward presentation, we may miss real intimate communing with God. God's transcendence leads us to a proper sense of awe, creaturely unworthiness, and honor. If we feel like it is appropriate to approach God with no sense of propriety whatsoever, we do not honor his holiness. We know full well in other areas of life that simply showing up is not enough. We honor a wedding couple by wearing clothes appropriate for the celebration. We honor dignitaries by presenting ourselves with propriety. Scripture teaches us both that God is near, familiar, and intimate as well as God being high and lofty, worthy of great honor, and due only the best we have to offer.
Posted in: Singleness and the Question of God's Goodness
Hi Michele,
I'm sympathetic to your financial dilemma I would encourage you not to "shake your fist at God", as it were, but rather look around for how God may yet provide for you. It seems to me that it would be entirely appropriate for you to speak with the deacons of your church concerning your dilemma, for they are God's ministers of mercy to you. They may be able to help with some combination of benevolent giving and budgeting help to provide for eventually retiring this burden completely. Oftentimes in the Christian life God does not intervene or provide in miraculous supernatural ways, but through very ordinary means such as the love and care of the body of Christ. May you be blessed in this way through your local church body, and may you again be encouraged in the loving provision of your Heavenly Father.
Posted in: Are Christians and Muslims Allies, Cobelligerents, Both or Neither?
So, Roger, I hear you saying that the Christian message is foolishness to the secularist. Where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right:
I Corinthians 1:18-25 "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach[fn] to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
Roger that.
Posted in: Are Christians and Muslims Allies, Cobelligerents, Both or Neither?
Your disdain for God's Word saddens me. I hope someday that you too can come to know and trust God through his Word.
Posted in: Are Christians and Muslims Allies, Cobelligerents, Both or Neither?
Your questions and statements belie your claim that you do not disdain God's Word.
Posted in: It’s Time to Stop Talking About Justice
Hi Shannon. No, we have never met each other, but i have read a lot of what you have written, and you have a digital footprint that makes parts of your life story "knowable". For instance, in one article (https://www.thebanner.org/departments/2017/01/getting-to-know-your-muslim-neighbors) you describe yourself as an "Arab American and daughter of a Muslim". It is this type of background as well as emphases of articles that you write that lead me to conclude that you have an understandable passion for Palestine and the Middle East. You are free to correct me if I am mistaken. I do not begrudge you that passion at all, and I intended no negative connotation in making that note. In fact, I think it admirable for you to speak concerning subjects about which you may have passion. I was merely saying that in the context of noting that other Christians will have other areas of passion, and it is also totally fine for them to focus there energies there.
Posted in: It’s Time to Stop Talking About Justice
Hi again Shannon. Statements such as "It’s time for us to stop talking about justice, and to do justice" carry an implicit message of either/or. I will concede that you did not explicitly posit that one necessarily excludes the other, but it seems to me that if you simply wanted to encourage justice action, there was no need to couch that call within a simultaneous call to stop talking about it.
I'm also not convinced that you are in a position to judge that Christians are spending too little time doing justice. Are you shadowing the lives of a significant number of Christians that you can make this statement? Just because Christians aren't doing justice in ways that are visible or acceptable to you does not mean that they are not doing it early and often.
It also seems curious that you posit talking and doing as somehow unrelated. One of the main messages of the OSJ is that talking *is* doing. The OSJ has innumerable articles, tweets, etc. that spur church members on to talking about/advocating about justice issues as a form of justice action. The "Do Justice" blog is full of such calls. Hence my confusion at the focus of your article. If your article had been basically a call to "spur one another on toward love and good deeds" ala Hebrews 10:24, you would have garnered a hearty amen from me. It was the call to "stop talking" (as if this talking is keeping Christians from acts of justice) and the ungracious/unfounded implied judgment that Christians aren't doing acts of justice if you can't see them or if they don't meet your priorities that led me to challenge the article a bit.
Posted in: How Do You Define "Justice"?
I agree with this statement. I think that we can both recognize distinct definitions of different theological terms and their necessary interrelatedness. I cannot imagine the concept of peace without the presence of justice. Injustice does break shalom, as I understand it. That does not mean at all that justice can be flattened out to be essentially the pursuit of shalom. Both terms are more complex and distinct than that, even as they are inextricably linked.
Posted in: How Do You Define "Justice"?
"Agree with this statement" was in reference to Kris' latest in this sub-thread.
Posted in: It’s Time to Stop Talking About Justice
Right, and I'm saying that some of how you issued your call to action is odd and communicates things that are not necessarily helpful and perhaps you did not intend.
Posted in: It’s Time to Stop Talking About Justice
As did you, so...
It seems to me that you would want to understand Dan's position and properly represent it. Disagreeing is one thing. Misrepresenting is another.
Posted in: How Do You Define "Justice"?
Here's the difference you left out, Roger: God did indeed punish the law breaking, but in the person of his Son. Thus he is just and the justifier. Remember, we are now seen as being perfectly righteous, as if we had never broken the law. The police officer in the example was not just, because he simply excused the offense. God does no such thing.