If you point out what I was completely wrong about please, as a neighbor, show me where I've gotten it wrong and I promise you I will recognize that and offer the appropriate response. As to being asked why I don't just graciously sign up with another denomination, I've answered this in response to someone else and I will answer you here in the same way. Many of us stay because there are kids who grow up hating themselves based on how our denomination treats the LGBTQIA community. If this is new information, I urge you to look into this before too long. If you refuse to look into this and take it seriously then we're at an impasse. As many times as I've brought up the other issues in the HSR, every last response from the Traditionalist camp retorts, "that's bad too but let's not worry too much and get back to assuming the progressives have forsaken the Holy Spirit.
Why would you even ask someone to graciously leave the denomination? Are we not a deliberative body who has gone toe to toe with each other for our entire existence. What's your angle here?
The question you ask might be honest, but it's also a little patronizing. I was born into the CRC and have subscribed to Reformed theology my entire life. I have as much reason and wherewithall as the next Image Bearer to fight for what's right within the confines of a denomination to which I've vowed and devoted my life. But, if you all get rid of the progressives at least you can share the pulpit with the URC again. Just compel the progressives to graciously leave and you'll have so much theological purity and conformity it would make 1 Corinthians 1 blush.
Yes, I've changed my views on gay marriage because I've studied the Bible as hard as I can and I no longer see the Word condemning those of us who advocate for full inclusion.
You say you love me as a neighbor so allow me one last question of you, why don't you pick up the wounded person our church leaders have left to die on the side of the road, bring them to an inn at risk of being mobbed by people who think Samaratins are bad people, pay the inkeeper for the wounded one's stay, come back and check on them, and try not to obsess about sex and who is doing what to whom anymore. I mean, it's like a compulsion for our denom at this point.
I don't mind if you want to call it here. You can win the argument if you'd like. But in the end the CRC won't be winning hearts, it'll just be winning arguments. At that point, we may as well gaze at our navels and go back to the blue hymnal.
I typed out a whole thing Trevor and I accidentally deleted it. I was responding to Dan with my last comment. My comment about Trump and the Rightist agenda is parody of what the Returning Church group would say, at least before it was made private. I'll leave it there because I think you've asserted atheism in my thought process and that crosses a major line.
Sorry for incorrect assumptions Dan. You've mischaracterize a couple of the things I said with regards to neighbors and staying in the denomination. That's okay though, we're at an impasse and your position will be the one that remains law in the CRC. I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that it will somehow end up differently. I'll be watching to see if there's grace in your victory. I imagine some will be gracious and some will not.
Question: How do you reckon we should actually approach our LGBTQ members? It's not a sin to be gay according to our church and in 1973 we were told we had to do everything in our power to not shame and exclude gay people but to enfold and love them as siblings, friends, and ministry partners (not a direct quote). Where are the reports of our good fruit in this area? Why do we not talk more and more seriously about how we can best love those who are celibate in accordance with our synodical decisions? Why isn't there full on preaching against homophobia and violence against trans people? What will be different this go around? If the answer is nothing, there's your fruit.
That's probably all rhetorical so I don't want to obligate you to answer. This thread is getting redundant on both sides of the issue.
What if we focussed as intensely on the other issues the HSR discusses? The report alleges that those who have a porn addiction are, maybe just maybe, in danger of losing their salvation. According the HSR this is already confessional. Seeing that there are way more people with the "porn addiction disorder" in the CRCNA than there are LGBTQIA people, isn't it a bit irresponsible of us to keep focussing almost solely on the LGBTQIA community?
We've been talking in front of gay people's backs since 1973 and have been pledging to love them so well that they would just be delighted to never experience romance, sex, marriage...you know, all the stuff that us straights take for granted every time we cry at a wedding.
Since we've got such a good track record over the past 50 years of tough loving people out of their sexual orientation I do believe we should focus the next 50 years on the "disorders" in the HSR that don't let the grand lot of us off scot free. Wouldn't it be a good thing to put a solid 50 years into loving people so well that they never feel the desire to look at porn?
All of the comparisons to other "sins" that don't have anything to do with sexuality are cliche and perfunctory at best. I think all of us sem grads know that at this point in the story. And I know I am being tongue in cheek and snarky to the point of being priggish, but consider how freely we bandy about judgment and proscriptions for an entire community of Image bearers who have the audacity to seek Christ and not always obsess over their sexuality. Boy do we ever obsess over sexuality.
It'll be interesting to see what the we decide to eradicate from our midst next because it sure as sugar is gonna be pride, am I right?. (My own pride, priggishness, and problems noted.)
I think the reason a lot of people don't leave is so that they can advocate for the marginalized in our congregations. With the suicide rate being what it is for LGBTQIA youth, some would like to stay and look out for them.
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
If you point out what I was completely wrong about please, as a neighbor, show me where I've gotten it wrong and I promise you I will recognize that and offer the appropriate response. As to being asked why I don't just graciously sign up with another denomination, I've answered this in response to someone else and I will answer you here in the same way. Many of us stay because there are kids who grow up hating themselves based on how our denomination treats the LGBTQIA community. If this is new information, I urge you to look into this before too long. If you refuse to look into this and take it seriously then we're at an impasse. As many times as I've brought up the other issues in the HSR, every last response from the Traditionalist camp retorts, "that's bad too but let's not worry too much and get back to assuming the progressives have forsaken the Holy Spirit.
Why would you even ask someone to graciously leave the denomination? Are we not a deliberative body who has gone toe to toe with each other for our entire existence. What's your angle here?
The question you ask might be honest, but it's also a little patronizing. I was born into the CRC and have subscribed to Reformed theology my entire life. I have as much reason and wherewithall as the next Image Bearer to fight for what's right within the confines of a denomination to which I've vowed and devoted my life. But, if you all get rid of the progressives at least you can share the pulpit with the URC again. Just compel the progressives to graciously leave and you'll have so much theological purity and conformity it would make 1 Corinthians 1 blush.
Yes, I've changed my views on gay marriage because I've studied the Bible as hard as I can and I no longer see the Word condemning those of us who advocate for full inclusion.
You say you love me as a neighbor so allow me one last question of you, why don't you pick up the wounded person our church leaders have left to die on the side of the road, bring them to an inn at risk of being mobbed by people who think Samaratins are bad people, pay the inkeeper for the wounded one's stay, come back and check on them, and try not to obsess about sex and who is doing what to whom anymore. I mean, it's like a compulsion for our denom at this point.
I don't mind if you want to call it here. You can win the argument if you'd like. But in the end the CRC won't be winning hearts, it'll just be winning arguments. At that point, we may as well gaze at our navels and go back to the blue hymnal.
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
I typed out a whole thing Trevor and I accidentally deleted it. I was responding to Dan with my last comment. My comment about Trump and the Rightist agenda is parody of what the Returning Church group would say, at least before it was made private. I'll leave it there because I think you've asserted atheism in my thought process and that crosses a major line.
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
Sorry for incorrect assumptions Dan. You've mischaracterize a couple of the things I said with regards to neighbors and staying in the denomination. That's okay though, we're at an impasse and your position will be the one that remains law in the CRC. I don't think anyone is kidding themselves that it will somehow end up differently. I'll be watching to see if there's grace in your victory. I imagine some will be gracious and some will not.
Question: How do you reckon we should actually approach our LGBTQ members? It's not a sin to be gay according to our church and in 1973 we were told we had to do everything in our power to not shame and exclude gay people but to enfold and love them as siblings, friends, and ministry partners (not a direct quote). Where are the reports of our good fruit in this area? Why do we not talk more and more seriously about how we can best love those who are celibate in accordance with our synodical decisions? Why isn't there full on preaching against homophobia and violence against trans people? What will be different this go around? If the answer is nothing, there's your fruit.
That's probably all rhetorical so I don't want to obligate you to answer. This thread is getting redundant on both sides of the issue.
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
Props to the leaders taking a bold stand.
What if we focussed as intensely on the other issues the HSR discusses? The report alleges that those who have a porn addiction are, maybe just maybe, in danger of losing their salvation. According the HSR this is already confessional. Seeing that there are way more people with the "porn addiction disorder" in the CRCNA than there are LGBTQIA people, isn't it a bit irresponsible of us to keep focussing almost solely on the LGBTQIA community?
We've been talking in front of gay people's backs since 1973 and have been pledging to love them so well that they would just be delighted to never experience romance, sex, marriage...you know, all the stuff that us straights take for granted every time we cry at a wedding.
Since we've got such a good track record over the past 50 years of tough loving people out of their sexual orientation I do believe we should focus the next 50 years on the "disorders" in the HSR that don't let the grand lot of us off scot free. Wouldn't it be a good thing to put a solid 50 years into loving people so well that they never feel the desire to look at porn?
All of the comparisons to other "sins" that don't have anything to do with sexuality are cliche and perfunctory at best. I think all of us sem grads know that at this point in the story. And I know I am being tongue in cheek and snarky to the point of being priggish, but consider how freely we bandy about judgment and proscriptions for an entire community of Image bearers who have the audacity to seek Christ and not always obsess over their sexuality. Boy do we ever obsess over sexuality.
It'll be interesting to see what the we decide to eradicate from our midst next because it sure as sugar is gonna be pride, am I right?. (My own pride, priggishness, and problems noted.)
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
What kept you from leaving off the last sentence?
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
I think the reason a lot of people don't leave is so that they can advocate for the marginalized in our congregations. With the suicide rate being what it is for LGBTQIA youth, some would like to stay and look out for them.
Posted in: Talking About Human Sexuality With Love
What does the prophet Ezekiel say the sin of Sodom was?