This discussion forum should remember that the Hebrew prophets, including Jesus and Paul, primarily critiqued the ungodly culture and empty religiosity of their own people in their own context.
Sadly, I detect a self- righteous tone in this overture. Martin, you and i have connected a few times through writing and meeting. You are very good at stubbornly defending your position and less so at listening!
I personally know Israeli Jews and Palestinians who live in the Land. They speak and act prophetically in their own context, often at great discomfort, risk and painful personal cost. These locals understand their history and its complexities, and they are eminently more qualified than us here in North America who, for the most part, are well out of our depth!
These true prophets and those who really do seek peaceful co- existence over there in the Middle East, carry on their good work without co- opting naive and misguided people from far away lands to jump on a one- sided bandwagon.
Both Christian Zionism and Christian Palestinianism tend to be one- sided and dangerously inflammatory rather than reconciliatory and peace- making. Both groups use the Israelite prophets out of context...CZ to prove Jews should have all the land, and CP to condemn the modern state Israel.
I believe our primary Christian calling is one of promoting reconciliation....the gospel message! In a riven land, an initiative like overture 6 only contributes more to division. These peoples will be neighbours however the final peace plans come about, so why not support groups that are working hard to encourage respectful building of bonds and who work for the flourishing of each other and their common land. Check out Miroslav Volf’s theology in Exclusion and Embrace, and in A Public Faith.
We had Salim Munayer of Musalaha (musalaha.org) ( Palestinian Christian), and Lisa Loden, (Messianic Jew), both from Israel, as plenary speakers at Missionsfest Vancouver, 2019. Here is one of their talks:
Unfortunately Sabeel is not in the category of these many other good initiatives....I have been in the company of Sabeel’s founder and Vancouver followers, and came away very troubled by the vibe of anger and their focus, which definitely had some of the characteristics of Natan Sharansky’s 3 D’s of Anti - Semitism: Delegitimization of, Demonization of and a Double standard toward the State of Israel.
You can read my article here; i would speak much more strongly today!!
Let’s stop pontificating from our cosy homes in peaceful countries. Perhaps the CRC should get more involved in local Canadian and American injustices in our own backyards! There are plenty!! I just read today that in the Diocese of New Westminster, B.C., the Anglican church will be giving a portion of their land sales back to the Indigenous community for development.
From my perspective, overture 6 is an inappropriate waste of CRC time, energy and money. It was already voted down twice at Classis BCSE. This discussion forum and delegates to Synod would be prudent to actively seek and hear the reasons why Classis BCSE wisely voted against this overture.
In the meantime, the Israeli and Palestinian people, their leadership, (which will soon be changing in both Israel/ Palestine) and the local church in the Land, desperately need our prayers....for the peace of Jerusalem!
Gary and I have four points we wish to address to Martin and his overture team, and to anyone else who may be reading this thread:
1) Martin, through your overture and your supporting comments, you have continued to provide us readers with an exceptionally clear demonstration of a “one- sided” argument. Your recent accusations about the Israeli blockade of Gaza completely avoid even the mention of the terrorist Hamas party in power! And in today’s post, you present a “victim” voice to promote your argument. Gary and I also mourn the terrible suffering in Gaza, the 52 year military occupation in the West Bank, and corrupt politicians found in both the Israeli and Palestinian governments. However, we are working on educating ourselves on the history and the bigger picture, through meeting with and listening to a variety of individuals and groups in the Land, not just one perspective.
We have heard and experienced a different Palestinian Christian voice; those seeking to spread the fragrance of Jesus and the Good News in a challenging place, without resorting to victimhood. We just received the June 7, 2019 Friends of NEC newsletter( Nazareth Evangelical College): http://www.nazcol.org , with the current message from Rev. Azar Ajaj ( Principal):
“ Many churches advertise their tours to the Holy Land by inviting the members to "walk where Jesus walked". And indeed, many do come to visit the land and see the dead stones of the past....However, most of the people leave without seeing the most recent chapter. Yes, Israel-Palestine is the land where Jesus walked, but it is also the land where He is still walking. Despite all the tensions that you hear about on the news, there is the good news of the kingdom of God....It looks like God is doing things that are bigger than our dreams and expectations; he is opening doors that we did not know were there and is exchanging beauty for ashes.“ - Azar Ajaz The newsletter goes on to highlight the ministry of some of its current students.
2) Regarding your recent post about the church’s role in addressing injustice, the facile (i.e. superficial) likening of the occupation of the West Bank to Apartheid policy in South Africa is a false equivalent. As is using this “similar situation” to justify the CRCNA involvement in protest. In the South African situation, it was very appropriate for the CRCNA to become involved; after all, it was mainly Dutch settlers (Afrikaners) who crafted and instituted the Apartheid, and their church supported it.
3) One- sided proposals and encouragement of polarization on this subject (which Sabeel and Christian Peacemakers consistently do), are not helpful; in fact, they are frankly DAMAGING to the reconciliatory efforts of thoughtful Israelis and Palestinians ( Christians, Jews and Muslims): the people who actually live there, have spent their lives sacrificially working for peace and who hope their grandchildren will be able to live in peace there. ( For the record, you should know that i have an equally strong negative opinion of the one- sidedness of the Christian Zionist movement.)
Below is a link to a current article by David Horowitz, which was published in the Times of Israel newspaper today, June 12, 2019.
It is a long article which includes an interview with Yossi Klein Halevi ( an Israeli Jew) and Mohammed Dajani, ( a Palestinian Muslim), but we hope people take the time to read or at least skim it, because it will give you some idea of the complexity of the situation in which you are hoping the CRCNA will dabble. These men share honestly their personal journeys; their dedicated work in reconciliation is laudable. Neither have time for a one- sided whining “victim” voice which this overture caters to.
There is real work to be done there, which involves listening to both narratives and a responsible pulling together.
4. Overture 6 calls on the OSJ to provide “ educational resources” to the CRCNA congregations. If the source of these resources stems from this one- sided overture, that is both a frightening and dangerous prospect!! Such teaching would fail to promote real dialogue and reconciliation.
Gary and I hope and pray that 2019 CRCNA Synodical deputies will exercise wise discernment and defeat Overture 6.
Thank you Doug, for your comments. We are joining you in that prayer. If there is a church order article to deal with this situation, taking it off the agenda, all the better!
Seriously, how can one ask CRC people to vote knowledgeably on such a complex and yes, divisive issue. We were thankful for the Advisory committee in place at Classis BCSE who patiently went through the overture twice in 2018.
Even then, it was rather unnerving to watch a roomful of European Canadians vote on such an overture.
Last year, when Gary told me Classis BCSE was voting a second time on the overture, I had asked him, out of curiosity, if I could read the overture. I hadn’t taken interest in it previously in the Spring. On glancing through it in October, I immediately spotted a blatant lie - which none, including the advisory committee nor Gary, had seen! ( I won’t go into detail here, you can talk to BCSE for proof of this, and I’m happy to provide my email thread to them).
The author of the overture apologized publicly about the “mistake” and told Gary and me later that a friend had been helping him with listing all the UN resolutions against Israel and writing about the Nation State Law, and that he hadn’t had time to check the work his friend had done!
The problem is that lies like these are used to push the “apartheid” label and BDS agenda.
This explains why I have written strongly to refute inaccurate statements...
To respond to Ken Libolt, I have plenty of respect for people who hold different faiths, theologies and political leanings, and there are many situations in which I can agree to disagree. However, in this situation, I do say something when CZ people make anti-Arabs comments and say they shouldn’t be in the Land, and I do say something when the pro- Palestinian side distorts the facts by presenting only one side of the story, and often with the agenda of de-legitimizing the right of the State of Israel to exist.
Lies lead to dangerous and hateful race propaganda, and I will not let that go without speaking up.
As followers of Jesus, let’s not give up hope for true peace and reconciliation in that part of the world- through honest dialogue, prayer and appropriate action.
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
This discussion forum should remember that the Hebrew prophets, including Jesus and Paul, primarily critiqued the ungodly culture and empty religiosity of their own people in their own context.
Sadly, I detect a self- righteous tone in this overture. Martin, you and i have connected a few times through writing and meeting. You are very good at stubbornly defending your position and less so at listening!
I personally know Israeli Jews and Palestinians who live in the Land. They speak and act prophetically in their own context, often at great discomfort, risk and painful personal cost. These locals understand their history and its complexities, and they are eminently more qualified than us here in North America who, for the most part, are well out of our depth!
These true prophets and those who really do seek peaceful co- existence over there in the Middle East, carry on their good work without co- opting naive and misguided people from far away lands to jump on a one- sided bandwagon.
Both Christian Zionism and Christian Palestinianism tend to be one- sided and dangerously inflammatory rather than reconciliatory and peace- making. Both groups use the Israelite prophets out of context...CZ to prove Jews should have all the land, and CP to condemn the modern state Israel.
I believe our primary Christian calling is one of promoting reconciliation....the gospel message! In a riven land, an initiative like overture 6 only contributes more to division. These peoples will be neighbours however the final peace plans come about, so why not support groups that are working hard to encourage respectful building of bonds and who work for the flourishing of each other and their common land. Check out Miroslav Volf’s theology in Exclusion and Embrace, and in A Public Faith.
We had Salim Munayer of Musalaha (musalaha.org) ( Palestinian Christian), and Lisa Loden, (Messianic Jew), both from Israel, as plenary speakers at Missionsfest Vancouver, 2019. Here is one of their talks:
https://www.facebook.com/missionsfestvan/videos/388559768376851/
Unfortunately Sabeel is not in the category of these many other good initiatives....I have been in the company of Sabeel’s founder and Vancouver followers, and came away very troubled by the vibe of anger and their focus, which definitely had some of the characteristics of Natan Sharansky’s 3 D’s of Anti - Semitism: Delegitimization of, Demonization of and a Double standard toward the State of Israel.
You can read my article here; i would speak much more strongly today!!
https://churchforvancouver.ca/conferences-took-on-controversial-issues-israel-palestine-christian-zionism/
Let’s stop pontificating from our cosy homes in peaceful countries. Perhaps the CRC should get more involved in local Canadian and American injustices in our own backyards! There are plenty!! I just read today that in the Diocese of New Westminster, B.C., the Anglican church will be giving a portion of their land sales back to the Indigenous community for development.
From my perspective, overture 6 is an inappropriate waste of CRC time, energy and money. It was already voted down twice at Classis BCSE. This discussion forum and delegates to Synod would be prudent to actively seek and hear the reasons why Classis BCSE wisely voted against this overture.
In the meantime, the Israeli and Palestinian people, their leadership, (which will soon be changing in both Israel/ Palestine) and the local church in the Land, desperately need our prayers....for the peace of Jerusalem!
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Start at “6 minutes” into live recording, if you wish to listen to Salim Munayer and Lisa Loden.
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Gary and I have four points we wish to address to Martin and his overture team, and to anyone else who may be reading this thread:
1) Martin, through your overture and your supporting comments, you have continued to provide us readers with an exceptionally clear demonstration of a “one- sided” argument. Your recent accusations about the Israeli blockade of Gaza completely avoid even the mention of the terrorist Hamas party in power! And in today’s post, you present a “victim” voice to promote your argument. Gary and I also mourn the terrible suffering in Gaza, the 52 year military occupation in the West Bank, and corrupt politicians found in both the Israeli and Palestinian governments. However, we are working on educating ourselves on the history and the bigger picture, through meeting with and listening to a variety of individuals and groups in the Land, not just one perspective.
We have heard and experienced a different Palestinian Christian voice; those seeking to spread the fragrance of Jesus and the Good News in a challenging place, without resorting to victimhood. We just received the June 7, 2019 Friends of NEC newsletter( Nazareth Evangelical College): http://www.nazcol.org , with the current message from Rev. Azar Ajaj ( Principal):
“ Many churches advertise their tours to the Holy Land by inviting the members to "walk where Jesus walked". And indeed, many do come to visit the land and see the dead stones of the past....However, most of the people leave without seeing the most recent chapter. Yes, Israel-Palestine is the land where Jesus walked, but it is also the land where He is still walking. Despite all the tensions that you hear about on the news, there is the good news of the kingdom of God....It looks like God is doing things that are bigger than our dreams and expectations; he is opening doors that we did not know were there and is exchanging beauty for ashes.“ - Azar Ajaz
The newsletter goes on to highlight the ministry of some of its current students.
2) Regarding your recent post about the church’s role in addressing injustice, the facile (i.e. superficial) likening of the occupation of the West Bank to Apartheid policy in South Africa is a false equivalent. As is using this “similar situation” to justify the CRCNA involvement in protest. In the South African situation, it was very appropriate for the CRCNA to become involved; after all, it was mainly Dutch settlers (Afrikaners) who crafted and instituted the Apartheid, and their church supported it.
3) One- sided proposals and encouragement of polarization on this subject (which Sabeel and Christian Peacemakers consistently do), are not helpful; in fact, they are frankly DAMAGING to the reconciliatory efforts of thoughtful Israelis and Palestinians ( Christians, Jews and Muslims): the people who actually live there, have spent their lives sacrificially working for peace and who hope their grandchildren will be able to live in peace there. ( For the record, you should know that i have an equally strong negative opinion of the one- sidedness of the Christian Zionist movement.)
Below is a link to a current article by David Horowitz, which was published in the Times of Israel newspaper today, June 12, 2019.
It is a long article which includes an interview with Yossi Klein Halevi ( an Israeli Jew) and Mohammed Dajani, ( a Palestinian Muslim), but we hope people take the time to read or at least skim it, because it will give you some idea of the complexity of the situation in which you are hoping the CRCNA will dabble. These men share honestly their personal journeys; their dedicated work in reconciliation is laudable. Neither have time for a one- sided whining “victim” voice which this overture caters to.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/when-an-ex-fatah-palestinian-neighbor-took-up-a-zionist-authors-challenge/?utm_source=The+Daily+Edition&utm_campaign=daily-edition-2019-06-12&utm_medium=email
There is real work to be done there, which involves listening to both narratives and a responsible pulling together.
4. Overture 6 calls on the OSJ to provide “ educational resources” to the CRCNA congregations. If the source of these resources stems from this one- sided overture, that is both a frightening and dangerous prospect!! Such teaching would fail to promote real dialogue and reconciliation.
Gary and I hope and pray that 2019 CRCNA Synodical deputies will exercise wise discernment and defeat Overture 6.
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Thank you Doug, for your comments. We are joining you in that prayer. If there is a church order article to deal with this situation, taking it off the agenda, all the better!
Seriously, how can one ask CRC people to vote knowledgeably on such a complex and yes, divisive issue. We were thankful for the Advisory committee in place at Classis BCSE who patiently went through the overture twice in 2018.
Even then, it was rather unnerving to watch a roomful of European Canadians vote on such an overture.
Last year, when Gary told me Classis BCSE was voting a second time on the overture, I had asked him, out of curiosity, if I could read the overture. I hadn’t taken interest in it previously in the Spring. On glancing through it in October, I immediately spotted a blatant lie - which none, including the advisory committee nor Gary, had seen! ( I won’t go into detail here, you can talk to BCSE for proof of this, and I’m happy to provide my email thread to them).
The author of the overture apologized publicly about the “mistake” and told Gary and me later that a friend had been helping him with listing all the UN resolutions against Israel and writing about the Nation State Law, and that he hadn’t had time to check the work his friend had done!
The problem is that lies like these are used to push the “apartheid” label and BDS agenda.
This explains why I have written strongly to refute inaccurate statements...
To respond to Ken Libolt, I have plenty of respect for people who hold different faiths, theologies and political leanings, and there are many situations in which I can agree to disagree. However, in this situation, I do say something when CZ people make anti-Arabs comments and say they shouldn’t be in the Land, and I do say something when the pro- Palestinian side distorts the facts by presenting only one side of the story, and often with the agenda of de-legitimizing the right of the State of Israel to exist.
Lies lead to dangerous and hateful race propaganda, and I will not let that go without speaking up.
As followers of Jesus, let’s not give up hope for true peace and reconciliation in that part of the world- through honest dialogue, prayer and appropriate action.