I had to laugh when I read this. At my summer assignment on the east coast, there was someone, a retired english teacher, who from time to time would say things like "Your sermon was over. Why didn't you quit? Why did you keep talking?" Of course, all your "quills" jump up when you hear something like this. But he was right. I had to, and I still have to, work on making my ending my ending. Always reforming!
An excellent book along these lines is Andrew Purves' The Crucifixion of Ministry: Surrendering our Ambitions To the Service of Christ. He makes the point that our ambitions, however noble, may be in the way of what Jesus the true pastor of our church may want us to do.
Specifically in terms of church order, what may need to be discussed is an expansion/explanation of church order article 69c, "ministers shall not solemnize marriages which would be in conflict with the word of God."
I appreciate your honesty in your posts. You have obviously thought about these topics a lot. But to be fair, that has to be balanced with the form of subscription that we as officebearers sign. Towards that, I wonder if you have ever considered writing a confessional-difficulty gravaman. Could that possibly be a way forward for you?
Regarding your second question, it seems that the diaconate is the most "missional" of the offices. I think that when looking at church history, a case can be made that the diaconate comes into its own at times of missionary/missional impulse. When that impulse fades, we don't really know what to do with the office. In times like that, we see, beginning in the first centuries, a cycle that repeats itself, the "cursus honorum", or "path to glory". (don't know if I'm spelling that right) The diaconate then becomes merely a "stepping stone" office on the way to something else higher...something an individual graduates from. We can see this pattern in our own denominational history. The typical pattern, unfortunately, is "once an elder, always an elder"...we graduate people from the diaconate into the eldership, and rarely back the other way. It's our own cursus honorum.
The culture is shifting around us, and as a denomination we are out of necessity becoming more missional. Because of that, the diaconate is coming into its own. I'm excited about this report because I think it is coming at just the right time in our life as a denomination.
I want to say thank you to the study committee for all the work that you have done. Besides bringing forward a winsome and well grounded report, the committee was also transparent in their process and sought the input of people across the denomination as they put together their report.
My druthers, I guess, would have been to have the report itself discussed on the floor of synod. In the past on this issue there have been reversals from year to year, with one Synod leaning in one direction and the next in the opposite. My only concern is that this again might take place in the next few years. I hope that won't be the case. I think that caution has had it's day when it comes to this topic, and that it's time to move forward.
"Concern of innovation" would have been the main reason for creating a new study committee. But I didn't think that the Diakonia Remixed report stood substantially apart from our (1972?) report on the nature of the offices, but was rather a faithful application of it. Thanks for your work.
While I think that your characterization of a beliver delighting in God's grace as a Phariasee in front of the temple is a bit off, I too feel more affinity with the publican asking for mercy. But as we look at that parable, it continues and says that it was the publican who went home justified. It does not say that he went home rejoicing, but one can imagine, if he knew that his sins had been covered, that rejoicing would not be an out-of-line response to this action of God. Indeed, the HC says that part of the "coming to life of the new self", along with a cognitive belief in the truths of the gospel is, a "wholehearted *joy* in Christ" and a *delight* to do his will. Things which one would assume are felt affectively as well as known cognitively.
What at first seems to be the distinction between yourself and the original poster of this thread is that he would say that this joy and delight is essential to the process. You at first seem to be saying that it is, rather, incidental to the process. But as I read what you are saying, it almost seems like you are saying that it is not even allowed.
An even more vivid assertion...that a believer delighting in God is equivalent to Eve giving in to the devil's temptation, because both of them are "personal experience".
I am fully in agreement with you as to the christocentric focus of Biblical witness...all of the sermons of Acts, I believe, we're squarely focused on the resurrection of Jesus. I also fully agree that experience cannot be the foundation or primary focus of Christian witness. But it does not follow that all experience is therefore illigitemate, or that those who may have had such experiences are suspect. If my brothers and sisters in Christ have had an experience that I may not have had, can I not rejoice with them?
Sorry, just a few other questions. What are the funding streams that are used in the planting process? Is it from the denomination or is it primarily from the local churches/networks? Do they have any sort of training for the churches or networks that enter into the process as parents? Thanks.
Posted in: Overtures 3 & 4: Laying Out the Debate
Larry,
Does the 1996 decision, though, just apply to individual churches?
Posted in: Elders Keeping Close Contact with Their Pastor(s)
I had to laugh when I read this. At my summer assignment on the east coast, there was someone, a retired english teacher, who from time to time would say things like "Your sermon was over. Why didn't you quit? Why did you keep talking?" Of course, all your "quills" jump up when you hear something like this. But he was right. I had to, and I still have to, work on making my ending my ending. Always reforming!
Posted in: God's Own Fool
An excellent book along these lines is Andrew Purves' The Crucifixion of Ministry: Surrendering our Ambitions To the Service of Christ. He makes the point that our ambitions, however noble, may be in the way of what Jesus the true pastor of our church may want us to do.
Posted in: Angst
God has done some beautiful things with remnants in the past. Let's wait and see.
Posted in: Are We Fully Equipped?
Specifically in terms of church order, what may need to be discussed is an expansion/explanation of church order article 69c, "ministers shall not solemnize marriages which would be in conflict with the word of God."
so, yes and no.
Posted in: What Is the Gospel?
Good to hear from you, Roger.
I appreciate your honesty in your posts. You have obviously thought about these topics a lot. But to be fair, that has to be balanced with the form of subscription that we as officebearers sign. Towards that, I wonder if you have ever considered writing a confessional-difficulty gravaman. Could that possibly be a way forward for you?
Posted in: Diakonia Remix
Meg,
Regarding your second question, it seems that the diaconate is the most "missional" of the offices. I think that when looking at church history, a case can be made that the diaconate comes into its own at times of missionary/missional impulse. When that impulse fades, we don't really know what to do with the office. In times like that, we see, beginning in the first centuries, a cycle that repeats itself, the "cursus honorum", or "path to glory". (don't know if I'm spelling that right) The diaconate then becomes merely a "stepping stone" office on the way to something else higher...something an individual graduates from. We can see this pattern in our own denominational history. The typical pattern, unfortunately, is "once an elder, always an elder"...we graduate people from the diaconate into the eldership, and rarely back the other way. It's our own cursus honorum.
The culture is shifting around us, and as a denomination we are out of necessity becoming more missional. Because of that, the diaconate is coming into its own. I'm excited about this report because I think it is coming at just the right time in our life as a denomination.
Posted in: Diakonia Remixed Report - The Synod Decision
Melissa,
I want to say thank you to the study committee for all the work that you have done. Besides bringing forward a winsome and well grounded report, the committee was also transparent in their process and sought the input of people across the denomination as they put together their report.
My druthers, I guess, would have been to have the report itself discussed on the floor of synod. In the past on this issue there have been reversals from year to year, with one Synod leaning in one direction and the next in the opposite. My only concern is that this again might take place in the next few years. I hope that won't be the case. I think that caution has had it's day when it comes to this topic, and that it's time to move forward.
"Concern of innovation" would have been the main reason for creating a new study committee. But I didn't think that the Diakonia Remixed report stood substantially apart from our (1972?) report on the nature of the offices, but was rather a faithful application of it. Thanks for your work.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
Henry,
While I think that your characterization of a beliver delighting in God's grace as a Phariasee in front of the temple is a bit off, I too feel more affinity with the publican asking for mercy. But as we look at that parable, it continues and says that it was the publican who went home justified. It does not say that he went home rejoicing, but one can imagine, if he knew that his sins had been covered, that rejoicing would not be an out-of-line response to this action of God. Indeed, the HC says that part of the "coming to life of the new self", along with a cognitive belief in the truths of the gospel is, a "wholehearted *joy* in Christ" and a *delight* to do his will. Things which one would assume are felt affectively as well as known cognitively.
What at first seems to be the distinction between yourself and the original poster of this thread is that he would say that this joy and delight is essential to the process. You at first seem to be saying that it is, rather, incidental to the process. But as I read what you are saying, it almost seems like you are saying that it is not even allowed.
Please clarify.
Posted in: Why Are Believers Not Declaring the Gospel?
Henry,
An even more vivid assertion...that a believer delighting in God is equivalent to Eve giving in to the devil's temptation, because both of them are "personal experience".
I am fully in agreement with you as to the christocentric focus of Biblical witness...all of the sermons of Acts, I believe, we're squarely focused on the resurrection of Jesus. I also fully agree that experience cannot be the foundation or primary focus of Christian witness. But it does not follow that all experience is therefore illigitemate, or that those who may have had such experiences are suspect. If my brothers and sisters in Christ have had an experience that I may not have had, can I not rejoice with them?
Posted in: Three Marks of a Mature Church?
Larry,I'm interested-is the denomination that you refer to using one model, or a variety of different models? Is it a top down or bottom up process?
Posted in: Three Marks of a Mature Church?
Larry,
Sorry, just a few other questions. What are the funding streams that are used in the planting process? Is it from the denomination or is it primarily from the local churches/networks? Do they have any sort of training for the churches or networks that enter into the process as parents? Thanks.