Lou Wagenveld

When the piece on Honduras started off with what to me were figures on religion that were so far off and out of date, I wondered what else of facts and perceptions might be skewed as well.  But then, I'm an inveterate doubter about the "effectiveness" of STMs. On balance, it sounds to me as though Honduras - at least as relates to CRC folk - is well above average on that score.  And I don't doubt that Kurt and company have a lot to do with that, with awareness raising on both ends of the exchange.  Lets keep the dialogue going, and the debriefings Stateside for many months afterward.                       PS I'm wondering how many of the participants to Honduras of the last several years are aware of the serious situation presented to the leaders and staff of the Association for a More Just Society .... look them up.

Maybe because it was published at 5 AM over two years ago, I missed this gem of a reflection.  My friend who wrote it should really go to work for a PR firm that specializes in glossing over things and putting on the best face, even while underneath the body suffers.

For us veterans of the - yes, fights - between these "sisters," this article just describes the present because the past has been so sad.  And the lack of real collaboration/coordination/cooperation on so many "fields" (following the lead of the home offices in spite of some very good attempts otherwise) has led to a paucity of results in too many places.  There are not many places where we can point to a thriving church with a holistic ministry where Word and Deed are a natural integral expression of what our theory is.  Why?  Dual agencies/administrations by nature replicate dual structures.  

In a couple of Central American countries the national Christian Reformed churches have practically no working relationship with the new model of going with NGOs as the preferred expression of the CRCNA there.  Please give a critical re-read of the paragraph "Do CRWM and World Renew work together?"  We are not surprisingly replicating our grand mistake of  allowing the divorce of 50 years ago to go on and on.  And my sense of things is that the boomerang of ecclesiastical history has come home to debilitate our whole bi-national denomination, as evidenced by the malaise and decline so lamented by many of us who did what we could to do it differently. 

Thanks, Steve, for re-visiting this perennial topic in missions/development work.  You write:

"...the challenge is to look for transformation in the lives of people."  My experience is that people necessarily continue in their culture and mileu, and that to think that two years is going to work a significant change is, yes "hope" but not at all that certain. I'd like you to put this piece and the Cambodian project in your 2014 agenda to revisit to see how it is progressing by then.

    I can't say that I have a good notion of what that Field School consists of, which would be a big factor in evaluating the likelihood of your hopes being realized.    One other observation I make: I have not seen many places where "missionary and development worker" are juxtaposed in the way you use those terms; interesting.  To me it betrays in just one more way the separation of Word and deed that has hamstrung our ministry efforts for the last two generations. 

    So at this season  of hope, lets hope and work for the outcome of the re?structure and culture change that is underway.

Thanks for submitting this, Anneke, via Wendy's post.  As someone deeply interested in and committed to holistic Christian witness, I read this type of post with keen interest.

I sensed, Wendy, something of an "apples and oranges" disjunction in that the title led me think we were going to get something on short term MISSIONS projects.  But the "paper" is about community development; our old bug-a-boo about our terminology... is development "missions."  Of course it is, or should be.  Allow me a couple of comments/questions.

I also sensed something of a disjunction between what sounded like CRWRC's direct work through local/national "staff" as contrasted with the next paragraph, working with local churches. Are those national workers identified as  staff of an international development organization? Are they on loan to other NGOs?  And, are they Christians?  How do they work? Does CRWRC pay church-related staff to carry out the projects?

Back to the question of STMs.  Anneke is correct in her skepticism about much of what is tried.  A story I know about is of a California church that spent $83,000 on a ten-day trip to Uganda to "form a library, build a wall, and start a new church." Yeah, all in ten days!   My concern is to see "church growth" and "community development" so integrated that it becomes an almost seamless witness to a full-orbed Gospel witness.

What I didn't read in the paper is what if anything these good community development models are doing for the increase in the number and depth of the local churches, of whatever denomination.  Lets keep conversing.......

(Disclaimer/clarification: when in the last paragraph "church based development work is twice mentioned, I construe that as CRWRC's N. American church based structure.  And as discussed elsewhere, I hope that is not eroded significantly with the changes that took place over the summer with Synod's approval of a name change... and whatever else may be coming down the pike along with that)

Thanks, Kris, for making this important perspective piece available.  And my your California trainings be blessed as well as the W. Michigan ones next week

Kelly, it was great to take the Church between Borders training with you just last week; reading this story of your experiences adds even so much more.  Thanks.

Mark, very stretching and helpful piece.  Now I'd like to see you or someone who knows the Batman mistique do an analysis of where those - and especially this latest "Dark Knight" - movies are on the "morally ill/healthy" scale.  The "media" doesn't like to talk much about that either; they label - and dismiss - as "conservatives" those who might want to attribute some of the problem to the "dark" stuff in today's (well, last 25 years) movies.

I'm glad to see this topic - much discussed but not by the right people, and never resolved - picked up again on this page. I found chapter 7 in B Fikkart's book When Helping Hurts quite helpful in outlining pros and cons.  I'll be glad to join the conversation; with a couple of stories I've picked up along the way.

Lou

I'm happy to add a testamonial to what Seve writes, from the perspective of colleagues in Latin America.  Both Stott's writing and his support in little and larger ways of of pastors and institutuions is widely appreciated there.

Yes, Joel, that is a very good question.  This comment just adds annecdotally to the issue, at least as I see it in El Salvador.  My hosts on my trips are my former landlords; they are quite typical Christians, having been converted in one of the traditional evangelical missions, gone through two more types of congregations, and now are in one of the pentecostal mega churches.  They are self-made business upper middle class folk; the architect daughter works with her civil engineer father as associate.  When there, we talk a lot about the type of questions you raise.  On my trip last year, I cited the statistics that the local jesuit university survey had recently come up with: 38% of Salvadorans consider themselves "evangelicos."

In the light of that, I asked this lifetime 35 year old Christian: "Lets just say that over the next couple of decades that percentage of evangelicals rises to 85%, ''What changes in El Salvador"?  Without hesitation she replied "nada" (nothing)!  My increasingly radicalized interpretation of that is that the reducionist "gospel" that has been exported to Central America is so "heavenly minded that it is of little earthly good."  How to get beyond that?!  Some of us are listening... please amplify the "table talks" as analysis and patterns take shape.

Thanks, Joyce.  Just fyi and by way of response, I'll mention that now for three years an ad hoc committee in Holland Michigan has been sponsoring celebrations.  This year our committee included CRC, RCA, PCUSA, and ELCA pastors.  We held a vesper type service with an attendance of nearly 200 (not nearly enough for a town with 50 CRCs RCAs!, but we were pleased after several years with no such services at all).

We share your sentiments about not wanting to be exclusive and triumphalistic. We want to build on the best of our heritage and seek to find themes that will speak out of the past to the present challenges we face.  For example, two years ago our panel discussion just four days prior to the general elections was on "Reformational Principles for Politics." 

Carry on with your celebratory efforts!

Hello all.  I'm almost hesitant to jump back into this wide ranging duscussion.  I've been somewhat absert for various reasons; here just a few comments. (turned out to be QUITE a few!)

I understand that to some I come off as a bit "judgemental" - personally, I like to think of it as "discerning" (in the sense that the Apostol uses that, as distinguishing the spirits).  And to say that the Holy Spirit can use any of our efforts is true, but can also be a trump card to stop discussion.  At least I was sensing it that way. 

When I speak at Mission Emphasis Weeks I often refer to the historic distinction formerly used: "evangelism" is close by, in our own context; "mission" was usually farther away geographically and cross-cultural/linguistic.  As others point out, that disctinction is breaking down as times, places, etc. "globalize".  So call it what yiu will.   But I feel that for reasons of effectiveness and stewardship, there are compelling arguments in favor of keeping our non-career efforts reasonably close to home - more effective where language and culture are not great barriers - and less expensive - freeing more dollars for long-term presence abroad.

I just got back from a weekend away, taking care of young grandchildren while our daughter and her preteen went with a church group, coordinating with an established house building group in Baja California (south of Tijuana) , to raise a house for a family.  This is a return visit; our daughter is a native Spanish speaker and served as translator.  Six local churches there cooperate with the program, which has three long-term volunteer staff on site.  I think this is a great program, but not very repeatable for churches/volunteers from much farther away if you want to take the stewardship factor into account.  This is a three hour trip (plus border wait of a couple hours).  Most of the other criteria for good STM are met.  Now if this were to go to Africa, even for two weeks, I would have serious questions, although I duly note that some of our dialogue partners on this site have long-term invovlements.  "You have to know....." 

I think Karl has underlined again the three components of good programs, and uses the word "expensive" in a broad sense. It will "cost" folk time, effort, money, to do all the steps well.  And most American Christians - pastor and youth leaders among them - suffer from the "instant gratification" syndrome of our culture.  So too often we end up with half-baked results.

A book I hadn't heard of was mentioned by Karl: Keller's Ministries fo Mercy.  I'll have to get that.  Meanwhile, I heard no one respond to my sorta challenge to read Chapter 7 (really, the whole book) of Fikkert's When Helping Hurts.

OK, I have to get to preparing my message for a "quinceanyera" this weekend.  The daughter of a young boy who came from Guatemala when he was 13, now his daughter is 15, and he and his wife invited us to go to celebrate this specail occasion with them up in Los Angeles (two hours away).  I value long term relationships and this will be a significant occasion to renew relationships in a place where we ministered for 15 years on site.   (interested in the community building dimension?   go to   www.soldelvalle.org ) I could write half a book about how hard it is to plant a sustainable church even with that investment of time and money, at least in that place!

Appreciatvely, Lou