Lou Wagenveld

There is so very much to say on this topic; that is why Steve hit on something that is getting this much repsonse.  Just a couple of comments and questions: Allen and Ken write:. "...working side by side....two way blessings..."  When will the Zambian pastor be making a visit to your church to help you in the work there?  Correct, its far from only about $$; but read the literature and ask how many short-termers ever keep up the relationships, even corresponding, let alone mutual re-visits?  And NO, don't EVER just "send them the money."  Unless there is a well-structured and supervised organization and plan in place, most money will do very liitle good.  On the "blessing" front, I am so very tired of the cliche of hearing young people say "we thought we were going to help them, but WE were the ones to be blessed."  My understanding of Christian stewardship is that we expect NOTHING - not even that ephimeral blessing - in return. But yes, invest it the most wisely.  In a world where mission dollars are scarce, I can't justify a California reformed group going to Uganda for two weeks to "set up a library, build something, and help start a church" at a cost of $83,000 ($4,300 each person).      If you haven't yet read Fikkert's  When Helping Hurts, go to Chapter 7 "Doing Short-Term Missions without doing Long-Term Harm" and when you can tell me that you are meeting 90% of the critieria that he sets forth, I'll give you my "blessing."! Lou    



 

Hello all.  I'm almost hesitant to jump back into this wide ranging duscussion.  I've been somewhat absert for various reasons; here just a few comments. (turned out to be QUITE a few!)

I understand that to some I come off as a bit "judgemental" - personally, I like to think of it as "discerning" (in the sense that the Apostol uses that, as distinguishing the spirits).  And to say that the Holy Spirit can use any of our efforts is true, but can also be a trump card to stop discussion.  At least I was sensing it that way. 

When I speak at Mission Emphasis Weeks I often refer to the historic distinction formerly used: "evangelism" is close by, in our own context; "mission" was usually farther away geographically and cross-cultural/linguistic.  As others point out, that disctinction is breaking down as times, places, etc. "globalize".  So call it what yiu will.   But I feel that for reasons of effectiveness and stewardship, there are compelling arguments in favor of keeping our non-career efforts reasonably close to home - more effective where language and culture are not great barriers - and less expensive - freeing more dollars for long-term presence abroad.

I just got back from a weekend away, taking care of young grandchildren while our daughter and her preteen went with a church group, coordinating with an established house building group in Baja California (south of Tijuana) , to raise a house for a family.  This is a return visit; our daughter is a native Spanish speaker and served as translator.  Six local churches there cooperate with the program, which has three long-term volunteer staff on site.  I think this is a great program, but not very repeatable for churches/volunteers from much farther away if you want to take the stewardship factor into account.  This is a three hour trip (plus border wait of a couple hours).  Most of the other criteria for good STM are met.  Now if this were to go to Africa, even for two weeks, I would have serious questions, although I duly note that some of our dialogue partners on this site have long-term invovlements.  "You have to know....." 

I think Karl has underlined again the three components of good programs, and uses the word "expensive" in a broad sense. It will "cost" folk time, effort, money, to do all the steps well.  And most American Christians - pastor and youth leaders among them - suffer from the "instant gratification" syndrome of our culture.  So too often we end up with half-baked results.

A book I hadn't heard of was mentioned by Karl: Keller's Ministries fo Mercy.  I'll have to get that.  Meanwhile, I heard no one respond to my sorta challenge to read Chapter 7 (really, the whole book) of Fikkert's When Helping Hurts.

OK, I have to get to preparing my message for a "quinceanyera" this weekend.  The daughter of a young boy who came from Guatemala when he was 13, now his daughter is 15, and he and his wife invited us to go to celebrate this specail occasion with them up in Los Angeles (two hours away).  I value long term relationships and this will be a significant occasion to renew relationships in a place where we ministered for 15 years on site.   (interested in the community building dimension?   go to   www.soldelvalle.org ) I could write half a book about how hard it is to plant a sustainable church even with that investment of time and money, at least in that place!

Appreciatvely, Lou

Here I am again... Two things:

I made a mistake on the Sol del Valle (that's in East San Fernando Valley, greater Los Angeles) web site if interested:     It is

www.sdvccenter.org      We set that up to deal with the community needs and oportunities after starting the church of the same name.

And more importantly, I DO (shout ok on that?!) want to "affirm" any and all who are out there witnessing.  It strikes me a lot of this is our categories; STMs yes come in many variaities, but still is a category that needs lots of clarification.  I'd be interested to hear more about the church/agency/organization involvement and guidance in some to the overseas efforts.

May I suggest that we do some more research (lots of web info is "out there" on this topic) and reading...?

Lou

Good morning all, tho this  is especially for Ken.  I'd written: "I DO (shout ok on that?!) want to "affirm" any and all ," to ,,,,,," ","...

....to which you commented "that wasn't nice".  Truthfully that didn't bother me at all - we long-time missionaries perhaps get a bit thick-skinned.  Or maybe its being of Dutch/Frisian descent!  So no apology needed, Ken. 

I notice that Karl has bowed out of the conversation for now, and I want to follow suit.  Let's all do some reading and reflection on this important topic, and maybe revisit it after the Livermore/VerBeek book comes out.    Adios. 

Fraternally, Lou

Karl, your poetic and flowery verbiage obviously didn't register well with the first respondent.
Since I know you well (we are out of the same green house/flower bed) I worked through it, and you have a point. Here is mine:

For quite some time I've had the feeling that our deacons - and here I have to say that the focus is Classis Holland - are good at starting and maintaining institutional type responses
to specific needs (example, My Brothers/Sisters houses) but less so at equipping themselves for the very concrete one to one needs around, both in and outside the congregations.

What does deaconal leadership at the denom level have to help overcome that?

Steve, I'd be interested to know a bit of trivia, which in turn may or may not have much significance. I find that here is no uniformity at all in what such committtes are called:
mission committee, evangelism committee, GO committee, outreach committee, and increasingly
the deacons are just asked to handle mission support requests.
Any sense of the percentages on this, and what importance this may have?
Lou

Desde Marzo 2010 no ha habido "movimiento" en este sitio!!!  Que quiere decir eso?  

Quien va a lanzar un tema como para calentar el ambiente un poco?!    - "Metiche" Luis    

Hace DOS angos este formidable intercambio, y alli muere?  El tema en sus muchas dimensiones ha sido tratado en otros ambitos que yo desconozca?  Donde estan las voces de los obreros del campo? Sospecho, como adelanta Jano, luchando para sobrevivir bi-vocacionalmente.   Ay, Senor.....

The meeting was billed as sponsored by both agencies, including CWRM.  Any partnerships developed with them?

Good suggestions for the planning processes.

It must be exasperating when CRWM has been doing most of those right along.  There must be some underlying malaise in churches that pastors don't know how/can't overcome.

Good to see this community development and church growth coming together... praise God.