We have had this conversation in our church when we were discussing going to a format other than the prescribed governance methods. What was found was that quite often our denomination is reactionary in this regard- in other words, someone finds a structure that works and is scriptural, then the denomination reacts by approving a new method.
Now folks, great answers, but you have answered the question "When do we allow children to partake", not "Why *don't* we allow children", which was the question I asked.
I'm heading toward "Why isn't communion open to all age children?" After all, the Lord's Supper is about remembering Christ's sacrifice- I see no link anywhere about profession of faith. I see a special meal/symbol designed to remember Christ's sacrifice- why do we impose these restrictions about profession of faith?
We used it in church to communicate with missionaries a few times. It was great when one of them asked "Is my grandma in church today?" and the in-sanctuary camera swung around so grandma could blow her a kiss.
It has been very well received and a great communication tool.
Jeff,
I greatly appreciate your well-thought out answer. As you mention, the passover was open to all, as long as they understood the significance of what they were doing- but it was not tied to an artificial ceremony. Don't get me wrong- I truly value profession of faith, and I think it's an extremely valuable thing, but to tie the Lord's Supper to it doesn't make sense.
My understanding of why we do not allow children at the Lord's Supper goes back to medieval times, and the doctrine of transubstantiation. When this incorrect doctrine was accepted, children were excluded from the sacrament, since if a child were to drop Christ's body it would be sacrilegious. This "tradition" is largely the reason why children do not partake today- due to tradition based on a faulty doctrine.
While I agree that children should understand what the Lord's Supper is, I do not think it should continue to be tied to Profession of Faith. At baptism we accept children into the arms of the church family- to me any time after this, once a child understands the significance of the supper, they should be allowed to participate. Profession of faith and the Lord's Supper are two separate, important things in the life of a young person in church.
I've been gone for a long time, but I'm back. Ken, I think you nailed it- many of these things are *our* concepts, not those of our Savior. I really like some of the reasoning in the new report. Christianity is not a complex thing- at its heart it is very basic- and I *do* think a child can grasp it.
I would have no problem with a 5 year old participating as long as they understand what we are doing. Through baptism they are members.
[quote=Jan Klaassen]Taking part of the Lord's Supper is a confession "the bread that we break is a communion of the body of Christ.Take,eat,remember and believe that the body of our Lord Jesus Christ was given for a complete remission of all our sins." see also "the cup of thanksgiving......" Also:Cathechism:" ---that I,with body and soul,both in life and death,am not my own,but belong unto my faithful Savior Jesus Christ,who with his precious blood------" This is confessing;can this be seperated from :"Confession of Faith"? At what age can we really, totally,deep in us, comprehend this and take this on as our personal acceptance?[/quote]
I see I didn't really address this on Jan, although Ken did. To that point, I agree that children can just as readily confess this point- do we need a "deeper" understanding of these issues to make the confession "real"? I used to be of the mindset that a young person couldn't really make profession of faith, since they hadn't been "tried" or really "tested" in life yet. I thought it should wait until later- once they have matured. However, later it struck me that there are many older confessing believers out there that have not really been "tested", and even if, what constitutes that point? After all, it's not an age issue, but really a spiritual maturity issue. In that case, the discussion should be about what constitutes spiritual maturity? I found myself at a loss there- the Bible tells us that confessing Jesus as our Lord and Savior is what it takes- and to me that makes sense- and can be done at nearly any age- and sometimes, as Ken pointed out, the simplest, most real confessions can come from those children.
Section 436.1703, paragraph 11 of Michigan law states:
(11) The consumption by a minor of sacramental wine in connection with religious services at a church, synagogue, or temple is not prohibited by this act.
So, it would be perfectly legal under Michigan law.
As for your question about the age of voting in church, the faith formation committee has this proposed change:
(Proposed Article 59c and supplement):
c. Confessing members receive all the
privileges and responsibilities of suchmembership. Privileges include but arenot limited to presentation of childrenfor infant baptism, the right to vote atcongregational meetings, and eligibilityto hold office. Responsibilities includefull participation in the work, life, andmutual discipline of the local congregationand the universal body of Christ.(supplement):Each congregation shall determine theappropriate age at which a confessingmember shall receive such privileges andresponsibilities. I hope this helps! The full report can be found here: http://www.crcna.org/site_uploads/uploads/resources/synodical/FaithFormation.pdf
Posted in: How can a church make changes to structure while staying within the church order guidelines?
We have had this conversation in our church when we were discussing going to a format other than the prescribed governance methods. What was found was that quite often our denomination is reactionary in this regard- in other words, someone finds a structure that works and is scriptural, then the denomination reacts by approving a new method.
Not the way it is supposed to work, I know.
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
Now folks, great answers, but you have answered the question "When do we allow children to partake", not "Why *don't* we allow children", which was the question I asked.
I'm heading toward "Why isn't communion open to all age children?" After all, the Lord's Supper is about remembering Christ's sacrifice- I see no link anywhere about profession of faith. I see a special meal/symbol designed to remember Christ's sacrifice- why do we impose these restrictions about profession of faith?
Nice to see some activity, by the way!
Posted in: Using Skype to Communicate
We used it in church to communicate with missionaries a few times. It was great when one of them asked "Is my grandma in church today?" and the in-sanctuary camera swung around so grandma could blow her a kiss.
It has been very well received and a great communication tool.
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
Jeff,
I greatly appreciate your well-thought out answer. As you mention, the passover was open to all, as long as they understood the significance of what they were doing- but it was not tied to an artificial ceremony. Don't get me wrong- I truly value profession of faith, and I think it's an extremely valuable thing, but to tie the Lord's Supper to it doesn't make sense.
My understanding of why we do not allow children at the Lord's Supper goes back to medieval times, and the doctrine of transubstantiation. When this incorrect doctrine was accepted, children were excluded from the sacrament, since if a child were to drop Christ's body it would be sacrilegious. This "tradition" is largely the reason why children do not partake today- due to tradition based on a faulty doctrine.
While I agree that children should understand what the Lord's Supper is, I do not think it should continue to be tied to Profession of Faith. At baptism we accept children into the arms of the church family- to me any time after this, once a child understands the significance of the supper, they should be allowed to participate. Profession of faith and the Lord's Supper are two separate, important things in the life of a young person in church.
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
I've been gone for a long time, but I'm back. Ken, I think you nailed it- many of these things are *our* concepts, not those of our Savior. I really like some of the reasoning in the new report. Christianity is not a complex thing- at its heart it is very basic- and I *do* think a child can grasp it.
I would have no problem with a 5 year old participating as long as they understand what we are doing. Through baptism they are members.
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
[quote=Jan Klaassen]Taking part of the Lord's Supper is a confession "the bread that we break is a communion of the body of Christ.Take,eat,remember and believe that the body of our Lord Jesus Christ was given for a complete remission of all our sins." see also "the cup of thanksgiving......" Also:Cathechism:" ---that I,with body and soul,both in life and death,am not my own,but belong unto my faithful Savior Jesus Christ,who with his precious blood------" This is confessing;can this be seperated from :"Confession of Faith"? At what age can we really, totally,deep in us, comprehend this and take this on as our personal acceptance?[/quote]
I see I didn't really address this on Jan, although Ken did. To that point, I agree that children can just as readily confess this point- do we need a "deeper" understanding of these issues to make the confession "real"? I used to be of the mindset that a young person couldn't really make profession of faith, since they hadn't been "tried" or really "tested" in life yet. I thought it should wait until later- once they have matured. However, later it struck me that there are many older confessing believers out there that have not really been "tested", and even if, what constitutes that point? After all, it's not an age issue, but really a spiritual maturity issue. In that case, the discussion should be about what constitutes spiritual maturity? I found myself at a loss there- the Bible tells us that confessing Jesus as our Lord and Savior is what it takes- and to me that makes sense- and can be done at nearly any age- and sometimes, as Ken pointed out, the simplest, most real confessions can come from those children.
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
Your question raised a valid concern to me- the legality. I did a little research and found this:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(3zvzfdj5nvixxz45lj0qh155))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-436-1703&query=on&highlight=religious%20AND%20alcohol
Section 436.1703, paragraph 11 of Michigan law states:
(11) The consumption by a minor of sacramental wine in connection with religious services at a church, synagogue, or temple is not prohibited by this act.
So, it would be perfectly legal under Michigan law.
As for your question about the age of voting in church, the faith formation committee has this proposed change:
(Proposed Article 59c and supplement):
c. Confessing members receive all the
privileges and responsibilities of suchmembership. Privileges include but arenot limited to presentation of childrenfor infant baptism, the right to vote atcongregational meetings, and eligibilityto hold office. Responsibilities includefull participation in the work, life, andmutual discipline of the local congregationand the universal body of Christ.(supplement):Each congregation shall determine theappropriate age at which a confessingmember shall receive such privileges andresponsibilities. I hope this helps! The full report can be found here: http://www.crcna.org/site_uploads/uploads/resources/synodical/FaithFormation.pdf
Posted in: Children at the Lord's Supper
Great point Kathy- none of this has yet been adopted by Synod.