I don't know the details of your case. But on the face of it classis should not be able to release you from ministerial office before two years have elapsed from the time of release from the congregation. Unless the process of evaluation and assistance indicated a sooner release was advisable.
Article 17
a. Ministers who are neither eligible for retirement nor worthy of discipline
may for weighty reasons be released from active ministerial service in
a congregation through action initiated by themselves, by a council, or
jointly. Such release shall be given only with the approval of classis, with
the concurring advice of the synodical deputies, and in accordance with
synodical regulations.
—Cf. Supplement, Article 17-a (process for evaluation and assistance and determination)
b. The council shall provide for the support of a released minister in such a
way and for such a time as shall receive the approval of classis.
c. A minister of the Word who has been released from active ministerial
service in a congregation shall be eligible for call for a period of two years,
after which time the classis, with the concurring advice of the synodical
deputies, shall declare the minister to be released from the ministerial office.
For weighty reasons the classis, with the concurring advice of the synodical
deputies, may extend the eligibility for call on a yearly basis.
d. In some situations, the classis may decide that it cannot declare the
released minister eligible for call after the minister has completed the
process of evaluation and assistance. The classis, with the concurring
advice of the synodical deputies, shall then declare the minister to be
Bev, it's a good question, and I don't know the answer. It certainly seems like a warning to us. Don't take your children for granted. Don't assume too much with regard to their faith. Children are always our prime mission field.
But we can also take some encouragement.... sometimes the sons did follow the faith of their fathers. And sometimes... I'm now thinking of Hezekiah and his son Manasseh, where Manasseh re-installed the idols and false gods his father had destroyed, but... then when Manasseh was in trouble, was captured, and when he returned from his own exile, he returned to God as well.
When we are busy with careers, work, making money, even with preaching or church work or missions, we should not forget that our children need our witness and our attention. If the lost soul in Kenya needs our attention, then our young children also need the same attention. Our children too have the questions, insecurities, struggles about who God is in their lives. How we respond when they are young, is probably most impacting.
Deuteronomy talks about binding the law on your forehead and doorpost, and partly that was to remind oneself, but also it was the way to teach the children. Well, only part of the way. You can do all of that, but the follow up is needed to explain it and to live it. And to pray for your children. I've read somewhere that a parent first prayed for his child when she was still in the womb. And what did he pray? that she would come to love the Lord. and that she would find a godly husband. Seems a bit premature, doesn't it? but it sets the tone for what is the most important thing in your life, and the life of your child. So imagine that your witness to that child begins already before she is born, and continues throughout.
The link to the national post editorial is here: and I've included a small quote from this editorial. If Kairos is thinking like this, then I'm not sure why we would want to be a member of it. The United Church has lost about fifty percent of its members in the last 50 years; it does not seem to be a good example to follow.
"....As was widely expected, the council has chosen to put politics ahead of matters of faith. Indeed, it is getting harder to tell where the church ends and a budding left-wing political party begins.
On Tuesday, the church voted to “categorically oppose” the Northern Gateway pipeline. That hardly seems like a religious matter. Nor do other resolutions to be voted on, including the church’s position of raising the eligibility for Old Age Security or Canadian mining operations in Asia.
But nowhere is this truer than with regard to the United Church’s stance on Israel...."
I should also point out the inconsistency in this article 17 which seems to indicate a release "without cause or fault", and yet leaves a great deal of decision in the hands of classis to determine over the ordination or calling of someone, without identifying a justifiable reason. In essence, this is a useless article. If a pastor is let go by a church, then he may remain ordained, but can only operate in any case under the jurisdiction of some local church. If no local church authorizes him, then his ordination will more or less lapse. If classis "releases" him, this can easily be revoked by some church calling him and requesting "re-ordination", since he was released "amicably", and not "deposed". This article largely adds process and protocol without essential and elemental effect. imho.
First, I think that the supplement and the original article 17 ought to be amalgamated, and placed in sequence so that confusion is greatly reduced. Then it also becomes more obvious how convoluted it is, and how it attempts to do two contradictory things at once, which is hinted at in article 17d. On the one hand, no blame, just a disharmony of purpose. On the other hand counseling and therapy. And possibility of discontinuation of ordination/ministry.
The essence of ordination is ministry. This applies to all offices. If ministry is not engaged in, then offices are not exercised, regardless of title. The essence of pastoral/preaching ministry is that a church is required to be served. If such a church does not manifest, and if duties or tasks of office are not exercised/performed then the ministry is absent. Thus article 17 becomes a process of relatively little significance. If it releases someone under article 17, then it is possible to request re-instatement, upon the request of a church who wishes to call the individual, since no blame or fault has been assessed.
But then we have this whole business about counseling and therapy, implying some kind of problem. And the article and supplement suggests that classis may simply declare the preacher ineligible for call, and declare him released, without indicating any reasons. Thus we have a contradictory scenario within this article/supplement, which is not clarified as well as it should be.
But, the article ought to be eliminated. If counseling and therapy lead to the determination that the man is unsuitable for office in the opinion of classis, then this should be mentioned, and should not be so ambiguous. It should become part of article for deposition.
In our present society, we so often have people who resign, or are laid off, rather than fired for cause, that the practice has entered the church as well. I don't know if this practice is speaking the truth in love, although I admit the intention is to cause the least possible hurt.
If article 17 was not voluntarily requested (which might be self-discipline) then certainly it is a form of discipline by others.
An article in the Halifax Herald points out the hypocrisy of the United Church of Canada in its stand against Israel and its settlements, and its call for a boycotte With all the other bad situations in the middle east, the United Church, and Kairos, often choose to focus solely on Israel. Why? because they are so bad? no, but because they are perhaps vulnerable to western opinions. In the meantime....
"....Palestinians in Jordan face serious repression, including having their citizenships revoked by authorities. It’s worse still in Lebanon, where Palestinians have faced apartheid conditions for decades, expressly denied economic, social and political equal rights. Palestinians in other Arab countries also face injustices.
Meanwhile, Christian Copts in Egypt have been under assault by Muslim fundamentalists for years. Thousands have reportedly fled the country in fear for their lives. In Syria, a brutal regime has massacred its own citizens for daring to ask for political rights that members of the United Church of Canada take for granted."
Hello? Will the United Church of Canada now work up reports calling for boycotts of products from those countries?
Don’t hold your breath.
I’ve heard the boycott against Israeli settlement goods defended on the grounds that Israel is a democracy and so should be held to a higher standard. In other words, I guess, you shouldn’t “expect” better from places like Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria. If you’re suffering injustice in those places, too bad, so sad, but if it’ll make you feel better, I’m boycotting Israeli settlement wine, don’t you know.
The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics released data last month showing the number of Palestinians employed within Israeli settlements climbed to 15,000 from 13,000 in the second quarter. I guess the United Church of Canada wants to put those Palestinians out of work.
I don’t mean to smear church-going, rank-and-file members of the United Church of Canada, by the way. This boycott was approved by the church’s general council, despite a recent survey showing 76 per cent of their own membership thought they should stay out of or remain neutral about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sixty-five per cent blamed both sides — Israelis and Palestinians — equally for the dispute....." (by schneidereit)
A recent example of the inadequacies of the church order, is the deposition or release of a minister who had taken on another occupation. Besides being entirely unscriptural, it misses the point of what it means to be a minister. For example, the apostle Paul continued in his tent-making while he preached. And didn't he also take a three year hiatus in his ministry before he resumed his preaching after his conversion?
But, what does it really mean to be a "minister"? A servant, right? diakono, right? The point is not whether they have taken on another occupation. Does that mean they are no longer qualified to baptise or lead communion, or to preach? Or even to revert back their occupation to that of a pastor or preaching elder? What does another occupation have to do with that?
So to me in this case the church order is spiritually disfunctional. And the proclamations of a classis in this regard are after the fact. They don't "release". They simply "acknowledge" what has already happened. And illegitimately suppose that someone who was previously qualified to preach, is now unqualified? someone who previously performed baptisms is now unqualified? simply on the basis of taking on another occupation? Not on the basis of some actual dereliction of duty, or moral failure, or theological heresy? to me this is absurd and meaningless. or perhaps beaurocratic "double-speak".
David raises some very good points. What is word and deed ministry? The Word says that true religion is to look after the orphans and widows (the poor), those who are less fortunate. But why is this? It is because we are to "love those of the household of faith", and to "love our neighbor as ourself". Jesus asked us to even love our enemies. How do we know that we love God?
"11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,[b] if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. "
Changing administration will not necessarily improve the connecttion between word and deed. It might, but it is mostly about an attitude. The same attitude that causes us to share material possessions also causes us to share the good news of salvation. Jesus even asked us to use our worldly possessions and goods to reap treasures in heaven.... how? by opening doors to the gospel of Christ, by leading others to the love of God. Be wise as serpents.... but for the good of our neighbor. And for the honor of God's name.
That attitude will cause those in home missions to talk to those in the Back to God hour. That attitude will cause those in CRWRC to talk to those in foreign missions and home missions, and vice versa. Pick up the phone. Have a video conference. Cooperate. Seek better solutions. Seek the welfare of the other agency or group, to help them achieve their task. In so doing, you will achieve your own vision. Because ultimately everyone has the same vision. Bringing people to the love of Christ.
I don't know what Dan is going to say to respond, but my thoughts are that a lack of innovation and independance from various angles and opportunities to carry out different approaches will stunt and inhibit the ability of people to try different things, in essence, will stop them or hinder them from being able to follow the leading of the spirit. As Dan's example showed happened as a result of a stamp of approval or lack of it from CRWM. If the idea of concentrating 90% of funding on church planting is valid, it should be encouraged, persuaded, and agreed to rather than hierarchically forced, and then the spirit will lead people in that direction to serve and minister and support that type of service. But I'm sure they will have more well-thought responses.
Posted in: The Loophole: Losing Your Ordination Without Cause
I don't know the details of your case. But on the face of it classis should not be able to release you from ministerial office before two years have elapsed from the time of release from the congregation. Unless the process of evaluation and assistance indicated a sooner release was advisable.
Article 17
a. Ministers who are neither eligible for retirement nor worthy of discipline
may for weighty reasons be released from active ministerial service in
a congregation through action initiated by themselves, by a council, or
jointly. Such release shall be given only with the approval of classis, with
the concurring advice of the synodical deputies, and in accordance with
synodical regulations.
—Cf. Supplement, Article 17-a (process for evaluation and assistance and determination)
b. The council shall provide for the support of a released minister in such a
way and for such a time as shall receive the approval of classis.
c. A minister of the Word who has been released from active ministerial
service in a congregation shall be eligible for call for a period of two years,
after which time the classis, with the concurring advice of the synodical
deputies, shall declare the minister to be released from the ministerial office.
For weighty reasons the classis, with the concurring advice of the synodical
deputies, may extend the eligibility for call on a yearly basis.
d. In some situations, the classis may decide that it cannot declare the
released minister eligible for call after the minister has completed the
process of evaluation and assistance. The classis, with the concurring
advice of the synodical deputies, shall then declare the minister to be
released from ministerial office.
Posted in: So What Is "Prophetic"?
Bev, it's a good question, and I don't know the answer. It certainly seems like a warning to us. Don't take your children for granted. Don't assume too much with regard to their faith. Children are always our prime mission field.
But we can also take some encouragement.... sometimes the sons did follow the faith of their fathers. And sometimes... I'm now thinking of Hezekiah and his son Manasseh, where Manasseh re-installed the idols and false gods his father had destroyed, but... then when Manasseh was in trouble, was captured, and when he returned from his own exile, he returned to God as well.
When we are busy with careers, work, making money, even with preaching or church work or missions, we should not forget that our children need our witness and our attention. If the lost soul in Kenya needs our attention, then our young children also need the same attention. Our children too have the questions, insecurities, struggles about who God is in their lives. How we respond when they are young, is probably most impacting.
Deuteronomy talks about binding the law on your forehead and doorpost, and partly that was to remind oneself, but also it was the way to teach the children. Well, only part of the way. You can do all of that, but the follow up is needed to explain it and to live it. And to pray for your children. I've read somewhere that a parent first prayed for his child when she was still in the womb. And what did he pray? that she would come to love the Lord. and that she would find a godly husband. Seems a bit premature, doesn't it? but it sets the tone for what is the most important thing in your life, and the life of your child. So imagine that your witness to that child begins already before she is born, and continues throughout.
Posted in: When Churches Start Becoming Experts on Pipelines, Does That Mean Oil Companies Can Become Experts on Theology?
The link to the national post editorial is here: and I've included a small quote from this editorial. If Kairos is thinking like this, then I'm not sure why we would want to be a member of it. The United Church has lost about fifty percent of its members in the last 50 years; it does not seem to be a good example to follow.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/08/16/national-post-editorial-board-the-united-church-should-focus-on-faith-not-activism/
"....As was widely expected, the council has chosen to put politics ahead of matters of faith. Indeed, it is getting harder to tell where the church ends and a budding left-wing political party begins.
On Tuesday, the church voted to “categorically oppose” the Northern Gateway pipeline. That hardly seems like a religious matter. Nor do other resolutions to be voted on, including the church’s position of raising the eligibility for Old Age Security or Canadian mining operations in Asia.
But nowhere is this truer than with regard to the United Church’s stance on Israel...."
Posted in: The Loophole: Losing Your Ordination Without Cause
I should also point out the inconsistency in this article 17 which seems to indicate a release "without cause or fault", and yet leaves a great deal of decision in the hands of classis to determine over the ordination or calling of someone, without identifying a justifiable reason. In essence, this is a useless article. If a pastor is let go by a church, then he may remain ordained, but can only operate in any case under the jurisdiction of some local church. If no local church authorizes him, then his ordination will more or less lapse. If classis "releases" him, this can easily be revoked by some church calling him and requesting "re-ordination", since he was released "amicably", and not "deposed". This article largely adds process and protocol without essential and elemental effect. imho.
Posted in: The Loophole: Losing Your Ordination Without Cause
First, I think that the supplement and the original article 17 ought to be amalgamated, and placed in sequence so that confusion is greatly reduced. Then it also becomes more obvious how convoluted it is, and how it attempts to do two contradictory things at once, which is hinted at in article 17d. On the one hand, no blame, just a disharmony of purpose. On the other hand counseling and therapy. And possibility of discontinuation of ordination/ministry.
The essence of ordination is ministry. This applies to all offices. If ministry is not engaged in, then offices are not exercised, regardless of title. The essence of pastoral/preaching ministry is that a church is required to be served. If such a church does not manifest, and if duties or tasks of office are not exercised/performed then the ministry is absent. Thus article 17 becomes a process of relatively little significance. If it releases someone under article 17, then it is possible to request re-instatement, upon the request of a church who wishes to call the individual, since no blame or fault has been assessed.
But then we have this whole business about counseling and therapy, implying some kind of problem. And the article and supplement suggests that classis may simply declare the preacher ineligible for call, and declare him released, without indicating any reasons. Thus we have a contradictory scenario within this article/supplement, which is not clarified as well as it should be.
But, the article ought to be eliminated. If counseling and therapy lead to the determination that the man is unsuitable for office in the opinion of classis, then this should be mentioned, and should not be so ambiguous. It should become part of article for deposition.
In our present society, we so often have people who resign, or are laid off, rather than fired for cause, that the practice has entered the church as well. I don't know if this practice is speaking the truth in love, although I admit the intention is to cause the least possible hurt.
If article 17 was not voluntarily requested (which might be self-discipline) then certainly it is a form of discipline by others.
Posted in: When Churches Start Becoming Experts on Pipelines, Does That Mean Oil Companies Can Become Experts on Theology?
An article in the Halifax Herald points out the hypocrisy of the United Church of Canada in its stand against Israel and its settlements, and its call for a boycotte With all the other bad situations in the middle east, the United Church, and Kairos, often choose to focus solely on Israel. Why? because they are so bad? no, but because they are perhaps vulnerable to western opinions. In the meantime....
"....Palestinians in Jordan face serious repression, including having their citizenships revoked by authorities. It’s worse still in Lebanon, where Palestinians have faced apartheid conditions for decades, expressly denied economic, social and political equal rights. Palestinians in other Arab countries also face injustices.
Meanwhile, Christian Copts in Egypt have been under assault by Muslim fundamentalists for years. Thousands have reportedly fled the country in fear for their lives. In Syria, a brutal regime has massacred its own citizens for daring to ask for political rights that members of the United Church of Canada take for granted."
Hello? Will the United Church of Canada now work up reports calling for boycotts of products from those countries?
Don’t hold your breath.
I’ve heard the boycott against Israeli settlement goods defended on the grounds that Israel is a democracy and so should be held to a higher standard. In other words, I guess, you shouldn’t “expect” better from places like Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria. If you’re suffering injustice in those places, too bad, so sad, but if it’ll make you feel better, I’m boycotting Israeli settlement wine, don’t you know.
The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics released data last month showing the number of Palestinians employed within Israeli settlements climbed to 15,000 from 13,000 in the second quarter. I guess the United Church of Canada wants to put those Palestinians out of work.
I don’t mean to smear church-going, rank-and-file members of the United Church of Canada, by the way. This boycott was approved by the church’s general council, despite a recent survey showing 76 per cent of their own membership thought they should stay out of or remain neutral about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sixty-five per cent blamed both sides — Israelis and Palestinians — equally for the dispute....." (by schneidereit)
http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/128501-schneidereit-united-church-of-canada-marching-with-the-hypocrites
Kairos and United Church stand on pipelines is also very selective. And as lacking in perspective.
Posted in: DeMoor Sept 9 Banner Article on Order.
A recent example of the inadequacies of the church order, is the deposition or release of a minister who had taken on another occupation. Besides being entirely unscriptural, it misses the point of what it means to be a minister. For example, the apostle Paul continued in his tent-making while he preached. And didn't he also take a three year hiatus in his ministry before he resumed his preaching after his conversion?
But, what does it really mean to be a "minister"? A servant, right? diakono, right? The point is not whether they have taken on another occupation. Does that mean they are no longer qualified to baptise or lead communion, or to preach? Or even to revert back their occupation to that of a pastor or preaching elder? What does another occupation have to do with that?
So to me in this case the church order is spiritually disfunctional. And the proclamations of a classis in this regard are after the fact. They don't "release". They simply "acknowledge" what has already happened. And illegitimately suppose that someone who was previously qualified to preach, is now unqualified? someone who previously performed baptisms is now unqualified? simply on the basis of taking on another occupation? Not on the basis of some actual dereliction of duty, or moral failure, or theological heresy? to me this is absurd and meaningless. or perhaps beaurocratic "double-speak".
I would love for someone to explain this to me.
Posted in: Together Again? Word and Deed
David raises some very good points. What is word and deed ministry? The Word says that true religion is to look after the orphans and widows (the poor), those who are less fortunate. But why is this? It is because we are to "love those of the household of faith", and to "love our neighbor as ourself". Jesus asked us to even love our enemies. How do we know that we love God?
"11 For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters,[b] if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. "
Changing administration will not necessarily improve the connecttion between word and deed. It might, but it is mostly about an attitude. The same attitude that causes us to share material possessions also causes us to share the good news of salvation. Jesus even asked us to use our worldly possessions and goods to reap treasures in heaven.... how? by opening doors to the gospel of Christ, by leading others to the love of God. Be wise as serpents.... but for the good of our neighbor. And for the honor of God's name.
That attitude will cause those in home missions to talk to those in the Back to God hour. That attitude will cause those in CRWRC to talk to those in foreign missions and home missions, and vice versa. Pick up the phone. Have a video conference. Cooperate. Seek better solutions. Seek the welfare of the other agency or group, to help them achieve their task. In so doing, you will achieve your own vision. Because ultimately everyone has the same vision. Bringing people to the love of Christ.
Posted in: Together Again? Word and Deed
I don't know what Dan is going to say to respond, but my thoughts are that a lack of innovation and independance from various angles and opportunities to carry out different approaches will stunt and inhibit the ability of people to try different things, in essence, will stop them or hinder them from being able to follow the leading of the spirit. As Dan's example showed happened as a result of a stamp of approval or lack of it from CRWM. If the idea of concentrating 90% of funding on church planting is valid, it should be encouraged, persuaded, and agreed to rather than hierarchically forced, and then the spirit will lead people in that direction to serve and minister and support that type of service. But I'm sure they will have more well-thought responses.
Posted in: DeMoor Sept 9 Banner Article on Order.
I see that some questions are difficult to answer. Hmmnn....
Posted in: Together Again? Word and Deed
Dan, I really appreciate your comments and perspective. It should become a starting point for discussions about CRWM and CRWRC.
Posted in: Theologian or Entrepreneur?
Excellent comments, Keith (and Rod too.)!