Two comments Paul: First, to your comment that the same few people might end up serving... remember that the same single pastor ends up serving, if this is not bad by itself, then why is it bad for other officebearers? Second, scripture encourages us to eagerly desire the greater gifts of service... it is an honor to serve in this way. If it is merely a duty or task that "must" be done or that we beg people to do, then we are giving the wrong impression of this God honoring task. (this also applies to other roles and tasks, each of which are important, but office bearers, ie., elders and deacons, are significantly singled out). Third, training ought to occur before they are asked. This training ought to be part of our training as christians. The task of elder is not to be a placeholder, or a name on a sheet, or to merely attend meetings. The qualities of pastoral leadership, teachership, and spiritual nearness to Jesus, will grow in these official roles, but ought to be there already well before. In order for someone to be nominated for such an office/role, they probably should fulfill a prerequisite of teaching a bible study class, catechism class, sunday school, cadets, young people, etc. How else will you know if they have the gift of teaching which scripture suggests? These are just some thoughts for consideration, as I do fully understand the dilemna.
Randy, you have mentioned some good stuff, but it might be useful if you discussed it as a council, rather than simply adopting someone else's policy. It will help you to focus on what is important and what is not, depending on the type of volunteer position or activity, of which there are many types. Some churches adopt a rule/guideline that to be a deacon, you may not drink alcohol or smoke. Many other churches do not. Some would say that divorced people and remarried ought not to serve as preachers or elders. Some would evaluate the inconsistency between behaviour and leading a bible study. In some cases the line of inconsistency is a bit gray, since how do we distinguish weakness from deliberate carelessness?
From a spiritual perspective, discussing this in instances where it may be a concern, will lead to confronting issues and perhaps a better context for spiritual admonition than a simple: "well that person doesn't qualify" type of environment. Hope this helps a bit.
Well, sorry. I didn't mean to imply that your council would not be involved. And of course your council should do whatever it thinks best in this regard; if it wants to look at what others have done, so be it. Only my suggestion to perhaps consider starting from scratch, might help to change the tenor of the discussion in a surprising way. They might take more ownership and might also give more thought to it. All the best.
George, interesting question. I would say that it does not equate to paying tithes since it is involuntary (taxes), and it is paying for services as much as helping the poor. In otherwords, old age security is available to most people, and unemployment benefits are paid from wages, based on the assumption that if you are unemployed, then you can access it. It is more insurance than donation. While it is true that some of the church's tasks of helping the poor have been reduced or made easier by the fact that the state has put in place methods for assisting the poor, you could argue that simply providing for your family from your wages also prevents poverty in your wife and children, and thus does the same thing. When the church helps the poor it comes with the message that we do this because Jesus loves us. When the state does it, it is usually to prevent disgrace or food riots.
Randy, I think your document shows promise. I hope you had a discussion with your council before you presented it to them, in order to encourage them to be pro-active, rather than just re-active to your document. Just a couple things perhaps missing: you did not mention homosexual activity, which might slip thru the wording of the document. Also not included are theft and dishonesty.
You might want to consider the impact on other ministries such as church maintenance, cleaning, serving meals and coffee, clerical, bulletin editor/typist, foreign mission trips, etc.
Keith, perhaps we think of it incorrectly to think of a pastor's report to elders vs an elder's report to pastors. Each must report to all the rest, whether there is a pastor present or not. But the report and evaluation is primarily for the purpose of making sure the outcomes and goals are being met with regard to the purpose and vision and objectives of the church as a whole. It should not been seen as primarily a way to assess or grade an individual's performance.
How do we change those five minutes a day? As you get older, you may have an advantage in prayer time, when we don't sleep so soundly anymore. I've found on nights when it is difficult to sleep, or if I wake up too early, then it is an excellent time to pray undisturbed. I end up praying for people and things that I have not thought of for some time. And usually then fall asleep eventually, more peacefully. So I consider God gracious in granting me less sleep, to bring me closer to Him.
Matthew, it sounds like to me, that maybe you are saying that there are two kinds of knowledge: one derived from scripture (what God tells us), and one derived from nature or what we see (secular). This is one way of understanding a difference. Craig is hinting at a problem with that in the sense that secular knowledge comes from what God created. Secular knowledge is based on what we see of God's creation, God's natural laws working.
So what is the relationship to morality, eschatology and purpose, you ask? One relationship is that they are directly connected, not disjointed. The laws that God gave us in scripture are related to the creation that He made. The creation that He made reveals also who He is and what He is like, but often we don't understand this very well unless we know scripture. The Bible says His word is all connected. The word that spoke creation into being, is the word of God, and is also the son of God, who is the Word made flesh.
A secular person will try to separate the secular from God, but as Christians, we know it all belongs to Him. We can also see how God's moral laws for us make sense from an empirical perspective, even thought that is not our primary purpose for obedience to God. Scripture provides with a lens and perspective on how to see the laws of nature.... for example how does predation fit in, or how does murder or adultery fit in to nature.... is it natural or unnatural and why? Our value judgements color how we look at empirical evidence; the empirical evidence is what we see, but does not by itself determine whether what we see is good or bad.
In some cases, it is even difficult to determine meaning of empirical evidence without a value framework, or without a world and life view. Is monogamy good or bad... is pornography acceptible or not.... are bribes another form of taxes.... should parents or government raise children.... is it okay if some species become extinct.... does it matter if poor people starve... etc. Usually world and life views even shape the collection of evidence, the way "secular" news is presented, and the interpretation or investigation of empirical evidence. EG. it is true that both the inquistion and Stalin and Hitler killed many people, but which one is more significant to you, and why?
How do you interpret other phenomena for example. Empirically we know that there were giant camels and mastodons and other mammals and large trees in the high artic and the Yukon, some frozen, and some fossilized; we know that there were dragonflies with four foot wingspans and we know that there are many seashells on the tops of mountains. What we interpret is how they got there, and it makes sense for people to derive that interpretation within the context of their world and life view.
Maybe this gets a little closer to answering your question?
That's beautiful, Bev! I would add that the Miss Martha's can also pray, even while they are busy cleaning, cooking, helping. It would be interesting for us to set some goals: for every minute spent on a computer game, spend one minute in dedicated prayer.... for every minute spent watching the news, spend one minute in prayer....
Have you ever been afraid to pray? Sometimes I find that the answer to prayer is scary! God actually listens, and answers! And it makes me wonder: what am I praying for, is it really what God wants....
While different management styles and different ways of looking at things is a statement that "sounds" good, it is so open-ended that it does not mean very much. Would that mean that having a pope as manager would be okay? Would that mean that every local church formulating its own confessions and hymnbook would be okay? Would it be okay if elders were appointed for life? Would it be okay if preachers were not approved by seminary or by classis? How far does it go? Of course there are many personality styles and also many peculiar council working arrangements in different churches, including approaches to preaching, singing, discipline, weekly activities, but don't they all need to fit within the direction and control of scripture? Diversity is great, yes, in many things. But in some basic and essential things diversity is not so great. Therefore it cannot be a general philosophy. Each case needs to be considered in its own context and on its own merits. Yes?
The idea of ordination... I am reminded of King David, who was annointed as a young man by the prophet Samuel, long before he became king. For years he was annointed, (selected, ordained), yet not serving in the complete function of king. Perhaps we can see this as being somewhat analogous to elders who were called, selected, and ordained, but no longer specifically serving in certain aspects.
Posted in: Elder/Deacon Nominees?
Two comments Paul: First, to your comment that the same few people might end up serving... remember that the same single pastor ends up serving, if this is not bad by itself, then why is it bad for other officebearers? Second, scripture encourages us to eagerly desire the greater gifts of service... it is an honor to serve in this way. If it is merely a duty or task that "must" be done or that we beg people to do, then we are giving the wrong impression of this God honoring task. (this also applies to other roles and tasks, each of which are important, but office bearers, ie., elders and deacons, are significantly singled out). Third, training ought to occur before they are asked. This training ought to be part of our training as christians. The task of elder is not to be a placeholder, or a name on a sheet, or to merely attend meetings. The qualities of pastoral leadership, teachership, and spiritual nearness to Jesus, will grow in these official roles, but ought to be there already well before. In order for someone to be nominated for such an office/role, they probably should fulfill a prerequisite of teaching a bible study class, catechism class, sunday school, cadets, young people, etc. How else will you know if they have the gift of teaching which scripture suggests? These are just some thoughts for consideration, as I do fully understand the dilemna.
Posted in: Where can I find a sample policy regarding ministry standards and expectations for volunteers?
Randy, you have mentioned some good stuff, but it might be useful if you discussed it as a council, rather than simply adopting someone else's policy. It will help you to focus on what is important and what is not, depending on the type of volunteer position or activity, of which there are many types. Some churches adopt a rule/guideline that to be a deacon, you may not drink alcohol or smoke. Many other churches do not. Some would say that divorced people and remarried ought not to serve as preachers or elders. Some would evaluate the inconsistency between behaviour and leading a bible study. In some cases the line of inconsistency is a bit gray, since how do we distinguish weakness from deliberate carelessness?
From a spiritual perspective, discussing this in instances where it may be a concern, will lead to confronting issues and perhaps a better context for spiritual admonition than a simple: "well that person doesn't qualify" type of environment. Hope this helps a bit.
Posted in: Where can I find a sample policy regarding ministry standards and expectations for volunteers?
Well, sorry. I didn't mean to imply that your council would not be involved. And of course your council should do whatever it thinks best in this regard; if it wants to look at what others have done, so be it. Only my suggestion to perhaps consider starting from scratch, might help to change the tenor of the discussion in a surprising way. They might take more ownership and might also give more thought to it. All the best.
Posted in: How do we train Sunday School teachers for the long-term health of our Sunday School programs?
I am curious if there are any churches that keep sunday school going all year round?
Posted in: Does our taxes paid to the government used for entitlements qualify as part of our tithing?
George, interesting question. I would say that it does not equate to paying tithes since it is involuntary (taxes), and it is paying for services as much as helping the poor. In otherwords, old age security is available to most people, and unemployment benefits are paid from wages, based on the assumption that if you are unemployed, then you can access it. It is more insurance than donation. While it is true that some of the church's tasks of helping the poor have been reduced or made easier by the fact that the state has put in place methods for assisting the poor, you could argue that simply providing for your family from your wages also prevents poverty in your wife and children, and thus does the same thing. When the church helps the poor it comes with the message that we do this because Jesus loves us. When the state does it, it is usually to prevent disgrace or food riots.
Posted in: Where can I find a sample policy regarding ministry standards and expectations for volunteers?
Randy, I think your document shows promise. I hope you had a discussion with your council before you presented it to them, in order to encourage them to be pro-active, rather than just re-active to your document. Just a couple things perhaps missing: you did not mention homosexual activity, which might slip thru the wording of the document. Also not included are theft and dishonesty.
You might want to consider the impact on other ministries such as church maintenance, cleaning, serving meals and coffee, clerical, bulletin editor/typist, foreign mission trips, etc.
Posted in: What are best practices for doing the monthly Pastors' reports to the Elders?
Keith, perhaps we think of it incorrectly to think of a pastor's report to elders vs an elder's report to pastors. Each must report to all the rest, whether there is a pastor present or not. But the report and evaluation is primarily for the purpose of making sure the outcomes and goals are being met with regard to the purpose and vision and objectives of the church as a whole. It should not been seen as primarily a way to assess or grade an individual's performance.
Other than that, I agree with all your comments.
Posted in: What are best practices for doing the monthly Pastors' reports to the Elders?
How do we change those five minutes a day? As you get older, you may have an advantage in prayer time, when we don't sleep so soundly anymore. I've found on nights when it is difficult to sleep, or if I wake up too early, then it is an excellent time to pray undisturbed. I end up praying for people and things that I have not thought of for some time. And usually then fall asleep eventually, more peacefully. So I consider God gracious in granting me less sleep, to bring me closer to Him.
Posted in: What Is the Relationship Between Secular Knowledge, Morality, and Eschatology or Purpose in the Context of the CRCNA?
Matthew, it sounds like to me, that maybe you are saying that there are two kinds of knowledge: one derived from scripture (what God tells us), and one derived from nature or what we see (secular). This is one way of understanding a difference. Craig is hinting at a problem with that in the sense that secular knowledge comes from what God created. Secular knowledge is based on what we see of God's creation, God's natural laws working.
So what is the relationship to morality, eschatology and purpose, you ask? One relationship is that they are directly connected, not disjointed. The laws that God gave us in scripture are related to the creation that He made. The creation that He made reveals also who He is and what He is like, but often we don't understand this very well unless we know scripture. The Bible says His word is all connected. The word that spoke creation into being, is the word of God, and is also the son of God, who is the Word made flesh.
A secular person will try to separate the secular from God, but as Christians, we know it all belongs to Him. We can also see how God's moral laws for us make sense from an empirical perspective, even thought that is not our primary purpose for obedience to God. Scripture provides with a lens and perspective on how to see the laws of nature.... for example how does predation fit in, or how does murder or adultery fit in to nature.... is it natural or unnatural and why? Our value judgements color how we look at empirical evidence; the empirical evidence is what we see, but does not by itself determine whether what we see is good or bad.
In some cases, it is even difficult to determine meaning of empirical evidence without a value framework, or without a world and life view. Is monogamy good or bad... is pornography acceptible or not.... are bribes another form of taxes.... should parents or government raise children.... is it okay if some species become extinct.... does it matter if poor people starve... etc. Usually world and life views even shape the collection of evidence, the way "secular" news is presented, and the interpretation or investigation of empirical evidence. EG. it is true that both the inquistion and Stalin and Hitler killed many people, but which one is more significant to you, and why?
How do you interpret other phenomena for example. Empirically we know that there were giant camels and mastodons and other mammals and large trees in the high artic and the Yukon, some frozen, and some fossilized; we know that there were dragonflies with four foot wingspans and we know that there are many seashells on the tops of mountains. What we interpret is how they got there, and it makes sense for people to derive that interpretation within the context of their world and life view.
Maybe this gets a little closer to answering your question?
Posted in: What are best practices for doing the monthly Pastors' reports to the Elders?
That's beautiful, Bev! I would add that the Miss Martha's can also pray, even while they are busy cleaning, cooking, helping. It would be interesting for us to set some goals: for every minute spent on a computer game, spend one minute in dedicated prayer.... for every minute spent watching the news, spend one minute in prayer....
Have you ever been afraid to pray? Sometimes I find that the answer to prayer is scary! God actually listens, and answers! And it makes me wonder: what am I praying for, is it really what God wants....
Posted in: Diversity in Leadership Planning Group II report. What is the meaning of 'diversity'?
While different management styles and different ways of looking at things is a statement that "sounds" good, it is so open-ended that it does not mean very much. Would that mean that having a pope as manager would be okay? Would that mean that every local church formulating its own confessions and hymnbook would be okay? Would it be okay if elders were appointed for life? Would it be okay if preachers were not approved by seminary or by classis? How far does it go? Of course there are many personality styles and also many peculiar council working arrangements in different churches, including approaches to preaching, singing, discipline, weekly activities, but don't they all need to fit within the direction and control of scripture? Diversity is great, yes, in many things. But in some basic and essential things diversity is not so great. Therefore it cannot be a general philosophy. Each case needs to be considered in its own context and on its own merits. Yes?
Posted in: Once an elder, always an elder?
The idea of ordination... I am reminded of King David, who was annointed as a young man by the prophet Samuel, long before he became king. For years he was annointed, (selected, ordained), yet not serving in the complete function of king. Perhaps we can see this as being somewhat analogous to elders who were called, selected, and ordained, but no longer specifically serving in certain aspects.