Good points made by Don J. Sometimes we pull out very convenient scriptures, don't we?
With regard to Verlyn's point about discerning the body of Christ, I have pondered a bit more. Some versions translate that as recognizing the body of Christ. I'm thinking that the action is actually not about self reflection but is about knowing and recognizing the body of Christ. Yes, that does have implications for how we treat the members of the body, which is the main thrust of this passage. But, the real problem is that some Corinthians were not recognizing the body of christ, but only looking at their outward human appearance with outward social conditions. As John 7:24 says, "stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly". They were forgetting that these people were the body of Christ; they were judging these people, but with the wrong criteria. To judge these other christians means to recognize them as saved repentant fellow believers, since they confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Are "krino" and "diakrino" gramatically related? I get krino - to judge, and diakrino - to judge thoroughly (back and forth).
Phil, if you put "church attendance USA" into your search, you should find it. Here is one link: religioustolerance.org › Christianity › History, beliefs, practices
A couple of additional comments: Phil, those who come for an aesthetic experience, or for community fellowship, will in the end find it easy to find the same things at a ballgame, or an art show, or a concert performance, or a curling rink. And in fact they are finding it there, perhaps because they assume that if that's really the only reason to go to church anyway, so what's the difference. In reality, the primary legitimate reason is to worship God together, and members ought to know and understand that first of all. If they don't, its the fault of the preachers. If they don't, they are being led astray by somebody. Figure out who it is... Change the message about the purpose of church getting together.
Now I realize that new visitors and seekers will have different reasons, and we also ought to pay attention to that. Fellowship in particular is also essential (but not foundational). But other reasons can never be a long term foundational purpose.
Last week I wrote a sermon about the "high places" in our lives, similar to old testament Israel. (tied in with Romans 6). It is those "high places" that divert people to different purposes, and decrease both attendance of members, and membership itself. If we don't have a good grasp of the purpose of worship, then it will be impossible for us to have any kind of grasp of the purpose of creation care, or christian education, or home missions, or christian relief efforts. Instead of honoring God thru these other efforts, they will simply become false idols and other altars, if we do not understand the purpose of gathering together for worship (and make it our priority).
I appreciate what Bev is saying too. More prayer! I can feel from week to week, when prayer is weak, then my faith life slides and suffers.
Mavis, as a dedicated Christian, when you are out of town, do you still find a place to worship with believers? Last Sunday we had a few missing as well, but I'm quite sure that they were worshipping at a very small church one and a half hours away, another church an hour away, or at another church seven hours away. On the other hand, we had some guests too.
Although many more passages in scripture mention God being the judge, and that we should judge ourselves, A couple of passages that talk about the necessity of judging others, or judging between others in the church are found in I cor. 5 and 6. It would also seem there are two aspects to this judging. One is discernment of what is obedience to God or not obedience to God. The second aspect is to judge an appropriate consequence to disobedience. I corinthians 5 talks about quite a severe consequence for an obvious rebellion. But I Cor 6 mentions judging in the sense of settling disputes. These disputes seem often to be personal disputes maybe about business or property, but perhaps could also include disputes about how we are to live in obedience before the Lord. The focus seems to be on actions requiring judgement, not on condemnation for eternal judgement, which is God's job, not ours.
I Corinthians 5 "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”"
I Corinthians 6:2-4 "Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?"
One more comment regarding Joe who said that Jesus did not put much emphasis on weekly worship. First, Scripture gives no indication that Jesus missed Sabbath worship. Often it indicates that he was invited to speak in the synogogue on the sabbath. Second, Jesus often had his own worship, with many more people than would fit in a regular synogogue. And his sermons were better too. He spoke with authority. Third, Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. But that does not mean he was suggesting that everyone should just do whatever they did every other day of the week. The fact that the Sabbath was made for man, meant it was a gift to man. A gift to be used for what it was intended, not a gift to be squandered and wasted. Many people squander and waste the sabbath on their own selfish desires, on their own false gods of money, or business, or recreation, concerts, meetings, vacation, and organized sports. For some, only a thin thread keeps them connected to the path that Jesus wants us to follow Him on.
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
George McQuire, I personally found this piece of yours very encouraging, and very appropriate. Thanks for this! We need evidence of God's faithfulness, especially when we are going through trials and difficult situations. We need this evidence as much as we need our vitamins and exercise. Sometimes we get it in obvious ways, and other times we just need our eyes opened to it.
As I remember it, the Belhar was accepted as an EFD as a compromise. If the choice was only as a confession, it would have been rejected. People had serious objections to having it under the form of subscription, because they disagreed with certain statements within it, or they felt it was not of the category of a basic confession of faith. If we discuss this further, and disregard why it was adopted as an EFD and not as a confession, there will be a feeling of betrayal and deceit. Instead of trying to discuss its significance, or trying to recategorize it, it would be more beneficial to use it as a guide whenever appropriate, even pointing out where it might be a bit unbalanced or not entirely strictly scripturally accurate, but still has some good points to make. We should not let this become another divisive issue simply because of the insistence of some that it needs to be placed on a higher pedestal.
Melissa, your song is great too! O Lord my God! In awesome wonder sings my soul! We sing this one often. Really nice when you can sing it "out of the church building" and spontaneously!
Posted in: To Judge or Not to Judge: That Is the Question
Good points made by Don J. Sometimes we pull out very convenient scriptures, don't we?
With regard to Verlyn's point about discerning the body of Christ, I have pondered a bit more. Some versions translate that as recognizing the body of Christ. I'm thinking that the action is actually not about self reflection but is about knowing and recognizing the body of Christ. Yes, that does have implications for how we treat the members of the body, which is the main thrust of this passage. But, the real problem is that some Corinthians were not recognizing the body of christ, but only looking at their outward human appearance with outward social conditions. As John 7:24 says, "stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly". They were forgetting that these people were the body of Christ; they were judging these people, but with the wrong criteria. To judge these other christians means to recognize them as saved repentant fellow believers, since they confessed Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Are "krino" and "diakrino" gramatically related? I get krino - to judge, and diakrino - to judge thoroughly (back and forth).
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Phil, if you put "church attendance USA" into your search, you should find it. Here is one link: religioustolerance.org › Christianity › History, beliefs, practices
The gall
the gallup surveys are pretty common knowledge.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
A couple of additional comments: Phil, those who come for an aesthetic experience, or for community fellowship, will in the end find it easy to find the same things at a ballgame, or an art show, or a concert performance, or a curling rink. And in fact they are finding it there, perhaps because they assume that if that's really the only reason to go to church anyway, so what's the difference. In reality, the primary legitimate reason is to worship God together, and members ought to know and understand that first of all. If they don't, its the fault of the preachers. If they don't, they are being led astray by somebody. Figure out who it is... Change the message about the purpose of church getting together.
Now I realize that new visitors and seekers will have different reasons, and we also ought to pay attention to that. Fellowship in particular is also essential (but not foundational). But other reasons can never be a long term foundational purpose.
Last week I wrote a sermon about the "high places" in our lives, similar to old testament Israel. (tied in with Romans 6). It is those "high places" that divert people to different purposes, and decrease both attendance of members, and membership itself. If we don't have a good grasp of the purpose of worship, then it will be impossible for us to have any kind of grasp of the purpose of creation care, or christian education, or home missions, or christian relief efforts. Instead of honoring God thru these other efforts, they will simply become false idols and other altars, if we do not understand the purpose of gathering together for worship (and make it our priority).
I appreciate what Bev is saying too. More prayer! I can feel from week to week, when prayer is weak, then my faith life slides and suffers.
Mavis, as a dedicated Christian, when you are out of town, do you still find a place to worship with believers? Last Sunday we had a few missing as well, but I'm quite sure that they were worshipping at a very small church one and a half hours away, another church an hour away, or at another church seven hours away. On the other hand, we had some guests too.
Posted in: To Judge or Not to Judge: That Is the Question
Although many more passages in scripture mention God being the judge, and that we should judge ourselves, A couple of passages that talk about the necessity of judging others, or judging between others in the church are found in I cor. 5 and 6. It would also seem there are two aspects to this judging. One is discernment of what is obedience to God or not obedience to God. The second aspect is to judge an appropriate consequence to disobedience. I corinthians 5 talks about quite a severe consequence for an obvious rebellion. But I Cor 6 mentions judging in the sense of settling disputes. These disputes seem often to be personal disputes maybe about business or property, but perhaps could also include disputes about how we are to live in obedience before the Lord. The focus seems to be on actions requiring judgement, not on condemnation for eternal judgement, which is God's job, not ours.
I Corinthians 5 "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.”"
I Corinthians 6:2-4 "Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church?"
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
One more comment regarding Joe who said that Jesus did not put much emphasis on weekly worship. First, Scripture gives no indication that Jesus missed Sabbath worship. Often it indicates that he was invited to speak in the synogogue on the sabbath. Second, Jesus often had his own worship, with many more people than would fit in a regular synogogue. And his sermons were better too. He spoke with authority. Third, Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. But that does not mean he was suggesting that everyone should just do whatever they did every other day of the week. The fact that the Sabbath was made for man, meant it was a gift to man. A gift to be used for what it was intended, not a gift to be squandered and wasted. Many people squander and waste the sabbath on their own selfish desires, on their own false gods of money, or business, or recreation, concerts, meetings, vacation, and organized sports. For some, only a thin thread keeps them connected to the path that Jesus wants us to follow Him on.
Posted in: Twice (a Month) - the New Normal?
Scripture says it better than we do, doesn't it?
Posted in: Playing with Hebrew Word Usage
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Posted in: Playing with Hebrew Word Usage
Verlyn, yes it is not possible to comment on a sermon you did not hear or read... and I probably worded my concern poorly. What I was wondering if you would be interested in looking at how the word "judge" or "to judge" is used, including the greek nuances of the english word, as well as the english nuances. Whether this particular semon misused the word or not, we know that the word is often innappropriately used. But how do we bring together what Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged..." with the statement in one of the epistles, "is it for us to judge those outside the church? No, rather we should judge those inside the church." The word is used at least 80 times in the New Testament, sometimes in what seems to be completely opposite ways. In addition, there are passages that don't actually use the word "judge", but are still instances of judging or discernment in the lives of others. For example, comparisons about those who will not enter heaven (adulterers, idolators, perjurers, etc.), and those who are chldren of God with the fruits of the spirit (patience, gentle, etc.) Or the story of Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 5. Any help you could give in this would be appreciated, especially for elders who must make decisions, or examine life of those who want to make profession of faith, or need to assess a potential pastor or new elder nominee, or a new song, etc.
Posted in: Vindication Praying: The Missing Petition on Most Pastors' Prayer Lists?
George McQuire, I personally found this piece of yours very encouraging, and very appropriate. Thanks for this! We need evidence of God's faithfulness, especially when we are going through trials and difficult situations. We need this evidence as much as we need our vitamins and exercise. Sometimes we get it in obvious ways, and other times we just need our eyes opened to it.
Posted in: “Well, That’s a Thought”
As I remember it, the Belhar was accepted as an EFD as a compromise. If the choice was only as a confession, it would have been rejected. People had serious objections to having it under the form of subscription, because they disagreed with certain statements within it, or they felt it was not of the category of a basic confession of faith. If we discuss this further, and disregard why it was adopted as an EFD and not as a confession, there will be a feeling of betrayal and deceit. Instead of trying to discuss its significance, or trying to recategorize it, it would be more beneficial to use it as a guide whenever appropriate, even pointing out where it might be a bit unbalanced or not entirely strictly scripturally accurate, but still has some good points to make. We should not let this become another divisive issue simply because of the insistence of some that it needs to be placed on a higher pedestal.
Posted in: Faith, Unbelief, and Growing in Grace
Greg, I will just say amen to your words here!
Posted in: The Inbreaking Kingdom
Melissa, your song is great too! O Lord my God! In awesome wonder sings my soul! We sing this one often. Really nice when you can sing it "out of the church building" and spontaneously!