The idea of ordination... I am reminded of King David, who was annointed as a young man by the prophet Samuel, long before he became king. For years he was annointed, (selected, ordained), yet not serving in the complete function of king. Perhaps we can see this as being somewhat analogous to elders who were called, selected, and ordained, but no longer specifically serving in certain aspects.
While different management styles and different ways of looking at things is a statement that "sounds" good, it is so open-ended that it does not mean very much. Would that mean that having a pope as manager would be okay? Would that mean that every local church formulating its own confessions and hymnbook would be okay? Would it be okay if elders were appointed for life? Would it be okay if preachers were not approved by seminary or by classis? How far does it go? Of course there are many personality styles and also many peculiar council working arrangements in different churches, including approaches to preaching, singing, discipline, weekly activities, but don't they all need to fit within the direction and control of scripture? Diversity is great, yes, in many things. But in some basic and essential things diversity is not so great. Therefore it cannot be a general philosophy. Each case needs to be considered in its own context and on its own merits. Yes?
Again with respect, everyone knows it is a great oversimplification to say that we know what "retirement" means.
Many retired occupations do not result in a complete cessation of activities. A "retired" carpenter may still occassionally build something. A retired farmer may still often drive a combine or a tractor. A retired mechanic may still repair his own or neighbor's vehicles. A retired preacher may still ocassionally preach when called on. Many "retired" persons often take on part-time contract work. So no, we do not know what it means clearly.
While we do indeed know that retired officebearers are no longer on the board of trustees, and should no longer exercise a vote in council, we do not have an explicit understanding of how their other "elderly" tasks should be terminated. Should they stop making visits to the sick? Should they stop teaching catechism? Should they be prevented from leading a service, reading a sermon, or critiquing the preaching? Should they stop providing pastoral advice to council? Are they not permitted to attend council meetings, just as any member? Should they stop providing spiritual guidance and leadership? Should they be denied the respect of their calling? Should we then disregard the prerogative of council to respect their general calling and ocassionally ask them to assist in certain "elder" tasks due to their previous ordination (as you yourself seem to have done in your previous example)?
Thanks for your response, Jeff. You seem to be suggesting that conduct is as important a profession as is stating agreement with a creed. If you don't walk the talk, do you really believe the talk.... But some would say that we are sinners, and must be forgiven; that is part of our faith. How would you answer that?
It would seem best when regional ministries are not established simply to have or fill a position, but rather to meet an obvious need or to meet a specific achievable goal. A tendency is possible to continue with certain regional staff even when the need is not there, and then to ignore other needs because financial and human resources are already allocated or exhausted. Regional ministries are probably most effective when they meet a criteria of flexibility and need, and avoid meeting a "formula" or avoid the criteria of traditional expectation.
In response to Frons, I am curious as to whether you could give an example of where the love of God is not present in a situation that you have experienced? Or perhaps give an example of where people are not willing to change in a situation where you thought they should have changed?
Thanks for your comment, Randy (dominee). It is much appreciated.
Suppose council forgot this article, or didn't follow it. Suppose they permitted the young couple to make profession of faith in spite of them living together without marriage. Then what would be an appropriate follow-up?
Jim, I agree with Jeff basically. However, it might depend on policies that the church already has in place. If you have policies relating to public use of the facilities under certain conditions, and if the antenna does not significantly alter the ambience or spiritual atmosphere of the building, a council might take it upon themselves to make a decision without having a formal congregational meeting. Sometimes a simple yes/no ballot vote after a church service may be sufficient, or an announcement with opportunities for individuals to raise objections to council could suffice.
Henry, with respect, the church order is not incredibly clear about the limitations of the office of elder. It says they shall normally retire from office. This has no scriptural sanction whatsoever, unless understood in the sense of a change of service. The church order says they shall serve (not "be") for a limited time. The church order says the time shall be designated by council. They can be re-elected, and terms can be changed. Thus the aspect of "serving" and "non-serving" elders can also be designated by council if it so chooses. This would not be disimilar to "retired" preachers continuing to preach, at the request of various councils. The church order uses the term installation in the case of re-election. It also uses the qualifier "immediate eligibility", but this is artificial, again with no scriptural sanction, nor a practical exclusion for someone who is re-installed one week or two months after his term is up, or one year after his previous term, or four years after his previous term. Thus it is reasonable to install, and not re-ordain an elder who has been previously ordained. As far as you asking a non-serving elder to serve, of course there is no problem with that, assuming that your council approves and you are preferably not doing it arbitrarily and individually by yourself. In the same way, there is no problem with council inviting non-serving or "retired" elders to participate in the laying on of hands. It is their decision. From the perspective of the non-serving elders, they ought to make sure however, that they understand the intentions of the serving council, when they assume certain tasks, including participating in ordinations or sacraments. If the council would rather that they did not participate, then they should honor that.
I would suggest that you do not worry too much about what others do. Rather, ask yourself what is edifying in your situation. We have decided to have Sunday School classes , including also adult Bible study, before church, not during church. Some sunday school classes sing, others do not. Sometimes they get together to sing, other times not. But every Sunday the sall children do come to the front at the beginning of the service to hear a story and to sing some songs (mostly by memory), in front of the congregation. And the rest of the congregation sings with them. It is a way for everyone to share in the joy of the children, and for the children to know that they are welcome in church.
Posted in: Once an elder, always an elder?
The idea of ordination... I am reminded of King David, who was annointed as a young man by the prophet Samuel, long before he became king. For years he was annointed, (selected, ordained), yet not serving in the complete function of king. Perhaps we can see this as being somewhat analogous to elders who were called, selected, and ordained, but no longer specifically serving in certain aspects.
Posted in: Diversity in Leadership Planning Group II report. What is the meaning of 'diversity'?
While different management styles and different ways of looking at things is a statement that "sounds" good, it is so open-ended that it does not mean very much. Would that mean that having a pope as manager would be okay? Would that mean that every local church formulating its own confessions and hymnbook would be okay? Would it be okay if elders were appointed for life? Would it be okay if preachers were not approved by seminary or by classis? How far does it go? Of course there are many personality styles and also many peculiar council working arrangements in different churches, including approaches to preaching, singing, discipline, weekly activities, but don't they all need to fit within the direction and control of scripture? Diversity is great, yes, in many things. But in some basic and essential things diversity is not so great. Therefore it cannot be a general philosophy. Each case needs to be considered in its own context and on its own merits. Yes?
Posted in: Once an elder, always an elder?
Again with respect, everyone knows it is a great oversimplification to say that we know what "retirement" means.
Many retired occupations do not result in a complete cessation of activities. A "retired" carpenter may still occassionally build something. A retired farmer may still often drive a combine or a tractor. A retired mechanic may still repair his own or neighbor's vehicles. A retired preacher may still ocassionally preach when called on. Many "retired" persons often take on part-time contract work. So no, we do not know what it means clearly.
While we do indeed know that retired officebearers are no longer on the board of trustees, and should no longer exercise a vote in council, we do not have an explicit understanding of how their other "elderly" tasks should be terminated. Should they stop making visits to the sick? Should they stop teaching catechism? Should they be prevented from leading a service, reading a sermon, or critiquing the preaching? Should they stop providing pastoral advice to council? Are they not permitted to attend council meetings, just as any member? Should they stop providing spiritual guidance and leadership? Should they be denied the respect of their calling? Should we then disregard the prerogative of council to respect their general calling and ocassionally ask them to assist in certain "elder" tasks due to their previous ordination (as you yourself seem to have done in your previous example)?
Posted in: When a young person who's living a sinful lifestyle wants to make profession of faith; what's an appropriate response?
Thanks for your response, Jeff. You seem to be suggesting that conduct is as important a profession as is stating agreement with a creed. If you don't walk the talk, do you really believe the talk.... But some would say that we are sinners, and must be forgiven; that is part of our faith. How would you answer that?
Posted in: Has the idea of classis staff come and gone?
It would seem best when regional ministries are not established simply to have or fill a position, but rather to meet an obvious need or to meet a specific achievable goal. A tendency is possible to continue with certain regional staff even when the need is not there, and then to ignore other needs because financial and human resources are already allocated or exhausted. Regional ministries are probably most effective when they meet a criteria of flexibility and need, and avoid meeting a "formula" or avoid the criteria of traditional expectation.
Posted in: Diversity in Leadership Planning Group II report. What is the meaning of 'diversity'?
In response to Frons, I am curious as to whether you could give an example of where the love of God is not present in a situation that you have experienced? Or perhaps give an example of where people are not willing to change in a situation where you thought they should have changed?
John
Posted in: When a young person who's living a sinful lifestyle wants to make profession of faith; what's an appropriate response?
Thanks for your comment, Randy (dominee). It is much appreciated.
Suppose council forgot this article, or didn't follow it. Suppose they permitted the young couple to make profession of faith in spite of them living together without marriage. Then what would be an appropriate follow-up?
Posted in: When a young person who's living a sinful lifestyle wants to make profession of faith; what's an appropriate response?
Thanks, Randy dominee.
Posted in: Is congregational approval required to lease part of our building?
Jim, I agree with Jeff basically. However, it might depend on policies that the church already has in place. If you have policies relating to public use of the facilities under certain conditions, and if the antenna does not significantly alter the ambience or spiritual atmosphere of the building, a council might take it upon themselves to make a decision without having a formal congregational meeting. Sometimes a simple yes/no ballot vote after a church service may be sufficient, or an announcement with opportunities for individuals to raise objections to council could suffice.
Posted in: Once an elder, always an elder?
Henry, with respect, the church order is not incredibly clear about the limitations of the office of elder. It says they shall normally retire from office. This has no scriptural sanction whatsoever, unless understood in the sense of a change of service. The church order says they shall serve (not "be") for a limited time. The church order says the time shall be designated by council. They can be re-elected, and terms can be changed. Thus the aspect of "serving" and "non-serving" elders can also be designated by council if it so chooses. This would not be disimilar to "retired" preachers continuing to preach, at the request of various councils. The church order uses the term installation in the case of re-election. It also uses the qualifier "immediate eligibility", but this is artificial, again with no scriptural sanction, nor a practical exclusion for someone who is re-installed one week or two months after his term is up, or one year after his previous term, or four years after his previous term. Thus it is reasonable to install, and not re-ordain an elder who has been previously ordained. As far as you asking a non-serving elder to serve, of course there is no problem with that, assuming that your council approves and you are preferably not doing it arbitrarily and individually by yourself. In the same way, there is no problem with council inviting non-serving or "retired" elders to participate in the laying on of hands. It is their decision. From the perspective of the non-serving elders, they ought to make sure however, that they understand the intentions of the serving council, when they assume certain tasks, including participating in ordinations or sacraments. If the council would rather that they did not participate, then they should honor that.
Posted in: When a young person who's living a sinful lifestyle wants to make profession of faith; what's an appropriate response?
Colin, thanks for your comment. It is sometimes a difficult issue. Your comments are appreciated.
Posted in: What Resources Do You Use When Singing With Kids?
I would suggest that you do not worry too much about what others do. Rather, ask yourself what is edifying in your situation. We have decided to have Sunday School classes , including also adult Bible study, before church, not during church. Some sunday school classes sing, others do not. Sometimes they get together to sing, other times not. But every Sunday the sall children do come to the front at the beginning of the service to hear a story and to sing some songs (mostly by memory), in front of the congregation. And the rest of the congregation sings with them. It is a way for everyone to share in the joy of the children, and for the children to know that they are welcome in church.