The posting of this blog article highlights the fact that if four blogs are posted in one day, they will no longer be identified on the "latest blogs/articles" box on the discussion page. Henry Hess informed me that if you go to the "top 10" link at the bottom of this page, that you can find the ten latest comments and ten latest blogs. For those who do not want to subscribe to all the blogs, this is a useful way to check if you have missed some comments or blogs you may be interested in, especially if you only check in once every two days or less.
The question of youth and young adults leaving the crcna church probably has many answers. From my personal perspective and experience, it seems young people have left the church to attend other non-reformed churches. Basically Baptist or Pentecostal or Alliance. Years ago, we have also had older adults leave to attend Alliance or gospel chapel. These are all what we call "anabaptist" or believer baptism churches.
So why do they attend other denominations? I know of a couple of cases of quite strong involvement in these other churches as well, where they have become deacon, or song leader or bible study group leader. Attendance there for these youth is weekly, and there faith life is significant and important to them.
It seems that the doctrines they were taught did not carry enough weight, perhaps because they were not taught strongly enough, nor at a young age. But there were also issues of friendship, fellowship, marriage partners, size of age groups, etc.. There were issues of worship style and atmosphere, songs that resonated, and preaching that related. And then for some there was the issue of committment of the adults and fellow youth to christian living. That committment seemed to the youth sometimes to be one of traditionalism, of lack of daily submission to God. Often lifestyles of adult and other teenage christians seemed to make a mockery of infant baptism, and even sometimes of the profession of faith. For that reason, it was not difficult for them to question the significance and importance of infant baptism, and to begin to lean towards the idea of "believe and be baptized".
For some youth, the idea of making an independant committment to Christ that was separate from the sort of expected following of the parents, was important. It seemed to make the committment more real and more personal. For other youth, this point was not so significant, and family kept them with their church.
While their committment to some of the doctrines was not very strong, yet their committment to their faith is strong. They are a witness and a strong contributor to the faith communities they are in. These communities we would call somewhat heretical baptists, based on our confessions. Yet we believe they consist of christians who earnestly desire to serve and obey God, and to claim His grace, and his mercy in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We work with them in the ministerial, in joint christian community activities. We not detest them, although we disagree with them on forbidding infant baptism.
I don't know if this provides any answers. But perhaps it provides some hints and context. We pray first of all for their faith, and for God's love.
I listened to your talk, Mark. Millenials, GenX, Boomers. I chuckle when I hear these categories. They say something about the demographics, and they say something about the context. But what do they say about the individuals? If the children in our church are nothing more than millenials or boomers, then what impact has the message of the gospel really had on their lives? Yes, these categories are important when considering evangelism of those who have not grown up in the church, but if we evangelize those within the church exactly the same way, then are we not denying in essence any gifts of the covenant? At least that is how I see it.
I believe relationships are always important, in every generation. But so is what those relationships have taught us. A relationship that teaches us that you can say one thing and do another, is different than a relationship that is consistent in word and deed. A relationship that expresses sacrifice and committment is different than a relationship of convenience.
But I am interested in your concept of "emotionally unhealthy". What does that mean to you?
Mark, okay I understand your concept of emotional health. It seems to imply a sort of confidence that allows one to be vulnerable, to be honest about one's limitations. And it includes the capacity to handle the emotions and turmoils of others in addition to your own personal life. I agree that emotional health is important. I would suggest that mostly it is a result of spiritual health, the ability to love your neighbor as yourself, and the understanding that God's grace is huge, and his commands important.
I don't think I am implying a false dichotomy between generational influence and personal relationships. My understanding of your points about generational influence is that people of a particular generation sort of cannot help who or what they are, because they were born in a certain period. That their generationality defines them to a large extent. I remember a discussion once with a roman catholic priest on an airplane. He was over 70 at the time, and he explained the high rates of unmarried couples, abortion, and lack of attendance at mass, as societal influence. He was failing to take accountability for the role of the church, of preaching and teaching. The Rom Cath church had been declining in numbers and influence, while other churches had been growing, but he was blaming society. I see this as kind of a deterministic perspective.
In the same way, I question why christian youth become children of their generation, rather than witnesses to their generation. Is this because the people they relate to, and the older people they have respect for, are also children of their generation rather than witnesses to their generation? And is this ulitmately also why they want to be asked to serve? to be taken from their generation, into the generation of God?
I sometimes wonder if our biggest fallacy is constraining our "programs" on the basis of the secular school year? Why don't we rather consider taking a few weeks break in winter, and continuing our programs in the summer, perhaps with changes in location and context? Does the dictates of state mandates for public school education become the determing factor for the spiritual growth of our children? Maybe the summer time is our prime time for evangelistic opportunities and spiritual growth of our youth?
You are right Neil that community development in the sense you indicate has a huge influence on the potential both to grow in faith and to live a faithful life. Whether it is the things we talk about, or the places we go to, or the types of daily work we do, or our sabbath observance, or the willingness to place bible study or mission trips above professional or amateur sports in importance and priority, the way our community operates can affect us. On the other hand, I sometimes hear people blame community (or "society") for the behaviour of christians. I would suggest that every leader, as well as every follower, is responsible for community within that society. And when communities are dedicated to following Christ, that will impact and influence the world, rather than the world influencing christians in deleterious ways. Good habits and customs can help us to serve our Lord and Saviour better.
The first time I ever heard percussion used for scripture or preaching, or maybe announcements, was at a small church in Hinton Alberta (not a crc). It was well done, amusing, and uplifting. But I have not heard it done since, and it does take a certain sensitivity and a sense of joy and appropriateness. And the worshippers need to have a light heart. Most likely the drummer was one with the congregation, and knew the people.
Videos have good potential for passive education, but the danger is a lack of active participation by the "watchers". This lack of active participation reduces the active learning, and also reduces the potential of community building and spiritual growth. So a good balance needs to be found, with the priority of active participation.
DVDs used for music might be the only alternative in some cases, but in terms of personal development of the congregation and its members, even poorly played instruments can be superior to dvds. Sometimes even acapella singing might be preferred, as praising God needs to be done personally, and not left for someone else (such as an impersonal dvd or a hired choir) to do it for you.
Just a short comment on comparison of dollars spent on varying approaches to foreign mission/aid projects. The comparison of the dollars for one youth trip to sustaining a full-time missionary may not be entirely valid. These are extra dollars spent that otherwise might be spent on vacations or toys. These short term mission trips also become an awareness and eye-opening that may very well lead to increased future support of full-time missionaries. On some work projects, the donated expertise and labor goes far beyond the cost of transportation and lodging. While a certain number of dollars would indeed support a full-time missionary, those dollars would not be sufficient to get some of the facilities, water projects, agriculture initiatives, and schools and churches built. I would think that these short term missions could often be an encouragement to the long term missionaries, if done well.
Paul, our casualty is a victory for the consumeristic culture. Blaming culture for our own shortcomings is something that reminds me of a conversation of a 70 year old roman cath priest who tried to blame society for the fact that the church had waning influence in the lives of its people. It was a very unthinking, wimpy, and unchristian response. Nor is it a good excuse for us, who trust in the Lord to have His way, and who claim to understand what it means to use our talents to the glory of God. There are ways of increasing biblical literacy, and motivating people to participate in it. But only if we are motivated ourselves. In any case, how can you really separate core programming from biblical literacy?
For about six years, I taught an adult bible study class. We started off with going through Romans, then all the parables, then the Heidelberg. Then I took a break for a year.
I agree that we could improve our biblical literacy. The best way to do that is to take on the tough projects, study a book of the Bible, stay away from a preprogrammed study material book. Ask your own questions and find your own answers. You don't have to be an expert. The teacher should learn as you go along. Learn best by doing, by exploring, by searching. Don't expect someone to spoon-feed you. Cook your own food. (spiritual food).
How do you speak truth? Say this: "Why are you bitter? Why are you bitter when others are worse off, and much less bitter?" and then feed them some chocolate, or pot pie, or vanilla pudding. and help them to find encouragement. Do not be afraid to spend some of your money on them if necessary. Spend time to listen.
They must throw off their own burden of regret, realizing that Christ carries the burden. Our sins are forgiven, and no more fishing to bring them back up.
Bad choices? Hope? Christ offers hope. I make enough bad choices of my own. We all need that hope.
Posted in: Just A Minute
The posting of this blog article highlights the fact that if four blogs are posted in one day, they will no longer be identified on the "latest blogs/articles" box on the discussion page. Henry Hess informed me that if you go to the "top 10" link at the bottom of this page, that you can find the ten latest comments and ten latest blogs. For those who do not want to subscribe to all the blogs, this is a useful way to check if you have missed some comments or blogs you may be interested in, especially if you only check in once every two days or less.
Posted in: re:kindle re:flection
The question of youth and young adults leaving the crcna church probably has many answers. From my personal perspective and experience, it seems young people have left the church to attend other non-reformed churches. Basically Baptist or Pentecostal or Alliance. Years ago, we have also had older adults leave to attend Alliance or gospel chapel. These are all what we call "anabaptist" or believer baptism churches.
So why do they attend other denominations? I know of a couple of cases of quite strong involvement in these other churches as well, where they have become deacon, or song leader or bible study group leader. Attendance there for these youth is weekly, and there faith life is significant and important to them.
It seems that the doctrines they were taught did not carry enough weight, perhaps because they were not taught strongly enough, nor at a young age. But there were also issues of friendship, fellowship, marriage partners, size of age groups, etc.. There were issues of worship style and atmosphere, songs that resonated, and preaching that related. And then for some there was the issue of committment of the adults and fellow youth to christian living. That committment seemed to the youth sometimes to be one of traditionalism, of lack of daily submission to God. Often lifestyles of adult and other teenage christians seemed to make a mockery of infant baptism, and even sometimes of the profession of faith. For that reason, it was not difficult for them to question the significance and importance of infant baptism, and to begin to lean towards the idea of "believe and be baptized".
For some youth, the idea of making an independant committment to Christ that was separate from the sort of expected following of the parents, was important. It seemed to make the committment more real and more personal. For other youth, this point was not so significant, and family kept them with their church.
While their committment to some of the doctrines was not very strong, yet their committment to their faith is strong. They are a witness and a strong contributor to the faith communities they are in. These communities we would call somewhat heretical baptists, based on our confessions. Yet we believe they consist of christians who earnestly desire to serve and obey God, and to claim His grace, and his mercy in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We work with them in the ministerial, in joint christian community activities. We not detest them, although we disagree with them on forbidding infant baptism.
I don't know if this provides any answers. But perhaps it provides some hints and context. We pray first of all for their faith, and for God's love.
Posted in: re:kindle re:flection
I listened to your talk, Mark. Millenials, GenX, Boomers. I chuckle when I hear these categories. They say something about the demographics, and they say something about the context. But what do they say about the individuals? If the children in our church are nothing more than millenials or boomers, then what impact has the message of the gospel really had on their lives? Yes, these categories are important when considering evangelism of those who have not grown up in the church, but if we evangelize those within the church exactly the same way, then are we not denying in essence any gifts of the covenant? At least that is how I see it.
I believe relationships are always important, in every generation. But so is what those relationships have taught us. A relationship that teaches us that you can say one thing and do another, is different than a relationship that is consistent in word and deed. A relationship that expresses sacrifice and committment is different than a relationship of convenience.
But I am interested in your concept of "emotionally unhealthy". What does that mean to you?
Posted in: re:kindle re:flection
Mark, okay I understand your concept of emotional health. It seems to imply a sort of confidence that allows one to be vulnerable, to be honest about one's limitations. And it includes the capacity to handle the emotions and turmoils of others in addition to your own personal life. I agree that emotional health is important. I would suggest that mostly it is a result of spiritual health, the ability to love your neighbor as yourself, and the understanding that God's grace is huge, and his commands important.
I don't think I am implying a false dichotomy between generational influence and personal relationships. My understanding of your points about generational influence is that people of a particular generation sort of cannot help who or what they are, because they were born in a certain period. That their generationality defines them to a large extent. I remember a discussion once with a roman catholic priest on an airplane. He was over 70 at the time, and he explained the high rates of unmarried couples, abortion, and lack of attendance at mass, as societal influence. He was failing to take accountability for the role of the church, of preaching and teaching. The Rom Cath church had been declining in numbers and influence, while other churches had been growing, but he was blaming society. I see this as kind of a deterministic perspective.
In the same way, I question why christian youth become children of their generation, rather than witnesses to their generation. Is this because the people they relate to, and the older people they have respect for, are also children of their generation rather than witnesses to their generation? And is this ulitmately also why they want to be asked to serve? to be taken from their generation, into the generation of God?
Posted in: Late Winter Blues
I sometimes wonder if our biggest fallacy is constraining our "programs" on the basis of the secular school year? Why don't we rather consider taking a few weeks break in winter, and continuing our programs in the summer, perhaps with changes in location and context? Does the dictates of state mandates for public school education become the determing factor for the spiritual growth of our children? Maybe the summer time is our prime time for evangelistic opportunities and spiritual growth of our youth?
Posted in: The Elder as Community Developer
You are right Neil that community development in the sense you indicate has a huge influence on the potential both to grow in faith and to live a faithful life. Whether it is the things we talk about, or the places we go to, or the types of daily work we do, or our sabbath observance, or the willingness to place bible study or mission trips above professional or amateur sports in importance and priority, the way our community operates can affect us. On the other hand, I sometimes hear people blame community (or "society") for the behaviour of christians. I would suggest that every leader, as well as every follower, is responsible for community within that society. And when communities are dedicated to following Christ, that will impact and influence the world, rather than the world influencing christians in deleterious ways. Good habits and customs can help us to serve our Lord and Saviour better.
Posted in: Taking My Place
The first time I ever heard percussion used for scripture or preaching, or maybe announcements, was at a small church in Hinton Alberta (not a crc). It was well done, amusing, and uplifting. But I have not heard it done since, and it does take a certain sensitivity and a sense of joy and appropriateness. And the worshippers need to have a light heart. Most likely the drummer was one with the congregation, and knew the people.
Posted in: High Tech, Low Tech Or No Tech
Videos have good potential for passive education, but the danger is a lack of active participation by the "watchers". This lack of active participation reduces the active learning, and also reduces the potential of community building and spiritual growth. So a good balance needs to be found, with the priority of active participation.
DVDs used for music might be the only alternative in some cases, but in terms of personal development of the congregation and its members, even poorly played instruments can be superior to dvds. Sometimes even acapella singing might be preferred, as praising God needs to be done personally, and not left for someone else (such as an impersonal dvd or a hired choir) to do it for you.
Posted in: Short Termers, Think Long Term
Just a short comment on comparison of dollars spent on varying approaches to foreign mission/aid projects. The comparison of the dollars for one youth trip to sustaining a full-time missionary may not be entirely valid. These are extra dollars spent that otherwise might be spent on vacations or toys. These short term mission trips also become an awareness and eye-opening that may very well lead to increased future support of full-time missionaries. On some work projects, the donated expertise and labor goes far beyond the cost of transportation and lodging. While a certain number of dollars would indeed support a full-time missionary, those dollars would not be sufficient to get some of the facilities, water projects, agriculture initiatives, and schools and churches built. I would think that these short term missions could often be an encouragement to the long term missionaries, if done well.
Posted in: Leading in Learning
Paul, our casualty is a victory for the consumeristic culture. Blaming culture for our own shortcomings is something that reminds me of a conversation of a 70 year old roman cath priest who tried to blame society for the fact that the church had waning influence in the lives of its people. It was a very unthinking, wimpy, and unchristian response. Nor is it a good excuse for us, who trust in the Lord to have His way, and who claim to understand what it means to use our talents to the glory of God. There are ways of increasing biblical literacy, and motivating people to participate in it. But only if we are motivated ourselves. In any case, how can you really separate core programming from biblical literacy?
John Z
Posted in: Leading in Learning
For about six years, I taught an adult bible study class. We started off with going through Romans, then all the parables, then the Heidelberg. Then I took a break for a year.
I agree that we could improve our biblical literacy. The best way to do that is to take on the tough projects, study a book of the Bible, stay away from a preprogrammed study material book. Ask your own questions and find your own answers. You don't have to be an expert. The teacher should learn as you go along. Learn best by doing, by exploring, by searching. Don't expect someone to spoon-feed you. Cook your own food. (spiritual food).
Posted in: Sharing Our Perpetual Hope
How do you speak truth? Say this: "Why are you bitter? Why are you bitter when others are worse off, and much less bitter?" and then feed them some chocolate, or pot pie, or vanilla pudding. and help them to find encouragement. Do not be afraid to spend some of your money on them if necessary. Spend time to listen.
They must throw off their own burden of regret, realizing that Christ carries the burden. Our sins are forgiven, and no more fishing to bring them back up.
Bad choices? Hope? Christ offers hope. I make enough bad choices of my own. We all need that hope.