I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
I really appreciate the network, and the opportunity to share and sharpen ideas/test thoughts that might be from the LORD, or whatever might be on your heart, with other believers that come from a similar perspective (mainly reformed)...
I have to laugh, last fall, about this time, I mentioned to a crc leader in the area, that I had some concerns about our denomination, and some of our position statements, etc. The response was basically, no one locally cares (i'm in the pnw), and it won't make any difference at the denominational level. So i thought, well LORD, I know I won't make a difference on my own, but I know You can, and You can use me if You want to.
When I first learned about the network in Febr. this year, I joined. I have been blessed by the many thoughtful, honest posts, seeking God's way of doing His Church. I have been encouraged by the expression of others, seeking better understanding of what it means to listen to and be led by the Holy Spirit. I have seen answers to prayers, that i believe the LORD put on my heart about His Church, and seeing posts that start to bring up some of the concepts. Other posts give insight on how to pray on behalf of His Bride, and some specifically for the crc denomination.
I too wish more people would share their thoughts here, and I encourage everyone to do so, because that helps the Body/Bride of Christ work together better for the common good, and we are much healthier.
definitely agree with the quiet shift of resources to more local ministries. I know we (my husband and I) feel the tension when our church's ministry shares are short, but we feel led to support the local prayer ministry I'm involved with instead.
I'm with you Colin, that our long prayer is too short... I'm sorry but if we consider 2 minutes a long prayer, we're in trouble... sorry, another pet peeve of mine is when we will have a minute or so of silent prayer and it's 10, maybe 15 seconds... dang, it takes more time than that (usually a lot more) to be still and quiet our souls...
it's already next to impossible to convince people that we should be praying corporately together in addition to the Sunday svc. I've heard so many excuses, one excuse I've heard, is it's easier to let someone else pray... argh!!! this one is sad and funny... they weren't sure if God heard them when they prayed in Dutch... of course He does... if He can understand praying in tongues, Dutch is a piece of cake... oh, wait, did I mention praying in tongues on a CRC forum... oops! That one people are really uncomfortable with... even if it's not done corporately...
We have almost completely lost corporate prayer... it's "Our Father", it's teach US how to pray, they were praying in one accord, NT prayer was often in a communal context (Acts 1:14; 4:24).. even the prayer "closet" in the KJV times (1600's), was the kings and queens sitting room off their chamber that was used as a gathering place with their closest friends and family, it was not our modern day concept of our closets...
crying while we're praying... in the CRC?!?! Praise God... it might not be pretty, but it's powerful, those tears are powerful prayers... Jesus prayed with tears... it's called travail, don't know that I've seen it too often in the CRC... and yes, it does make us uncomfortable, because we aren't used to it. LORD, multiply the tears in prayer on behalf of the hurting and wounded... in fact, a few days ago, I just listened to the late David Wilkersons "A call to anguish"... let's see if I can find the link again..it's about 7 minutes.
I'm sure the scriptures mention the concept of crying out to God" several times... pretty sure it was usually King David, who was a man after God's heart...
here's a powerful testimony by Keith Green...about 1:50 in he shares on when he wrote Oh LORD, You're beautiful... and how he was feeling cold and distant in his relationship, and so God "told" him..."cry", and Keith said I can't or don't feel like cyring... God "said" "I'll wait"... the result is this amazing song... this video doesn't have all the verses, so I encourage you to check out all the verses...
my prayer is that instead of people saying "I'll pray for you", they will pray for that person right on the spot, whether it's over the phone or in the back of church, or in the grocery store, or at the park, or wherever it comes up... my prayer is that we'll be praying and worshipping 24/7... just like in the temple of David...
but back to corporate prayer... we somehow have gotten significantly out of balance between private and corporate prayer... they are both equally important... I apologize if my frustration with our lack of enthusiasm for corporate prayer is coming through with snarky remarks... hehehehe =)
btw, Colin... are you going to be able to make it to the prayer summit next week... and was the young adult, Rudy's son, and if so how long ago was this? (I met Rudy at the prayer summit at the Firs in B'ham last yearish). thx. Bev S (Susan Dotinga's niece from Lynden)
Thanks Paul for taking on this corner of the network for a while... I too believe, God will use this tool to connect those with an "interest" in these concerns... Last year, I mentioned some of my denominational concerns with a local CRC leader, and the response was essentially no one cares, and you won't make any difference at the denominational level. Well, I didn't receive that, and was a "little" put out, and frustrated, so I prayed, and educated myself more on what's going on at the higher levels of the CRC... I had kind of given up for a while, then joined the network when they sent out the email in late Feb, then I was struggling with some issue again, and briefly thought with a defeatist attitude, I don't care if I'm in disagreement...and the Holy Spirit really impressed on me that it is very important to be in one accord... If I'm a part of this denomination, then I need to be praying and working toward being in agreement, however that might look...
a couple of concepts that we have used in our area (not through classis though) are seek God for Lynden, based on seek God for the city... we gather as "the church of Lynden", not as one particular church or denomination...
Houston prays is another powerful ministry that connects churches in a regional area... I have met the director for this ministry, and see amazing things going on in the Houston area... here's one for example:
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FB1B9CNU a powerful celebration of diversity, as 2000 believers come together in Houston to celebrate the Risen LORD, with dance... this is a beautiful picture of young and old, and various ethnicities all celebrating Christ. I cry just about every time I watch it...
the 3rd example is the Light of the World Prayer center that is a county wide prayer center. again, a beautiful blend of believers from various streams, reformed, pentecostal, baptist, catholic, etc. praying together. This is what we have found to be the most powerful way that unity in spirit is achieved, is when we pray together. A couple of weeks ago, we had reformed, mennonite and baptist pastors and area leaders praying together for 3 days. I believe this is very significant for reconciliation, because of our role in the split with the anabaptists many years ago... some might say ancient history, but as I've become more involved in digging into the roots of some issues, they can go back a long way.
One of the rays of hope for me is that since we (the crc) reversed our position on cessationism, as we did in 1973, a significant change of doctrine, then it's possible that these other issues I struggle with can be worked out as well.
Like you said, confessing that there is something unhealthy is a good start... Now LORD, purge, purify and cleanse us of what is not from You... Raise up Spirit led leaders that are men and women of prayer... those who know that prayer is life or death for our denomination...In Your precious Son's Name...JESUS!
As i was walking the track for relay for life in the wee am hours, another possibility entered my mind, for helping bring unity... Dr. Alvin Vander Griend of the CRC and Harvest Prayer ministries (author of Love to Pray, Joy of Prayer, Praying the Father's Heart), has a wonderful teaching on a culture of prayer. I am on the Light of the World prayer board with him, and so can't believe I forgot about it. He has expressed interest in going to regional areas and inviting particularly the CRC and RC from that area for a combined gathering focusing on prayer, helping to bring increased unity through prayer. Hope that helps.
thanks Paul. your post brought tears to my eyes... it was beautiful insight, and I will pray that it will not be soon forgotten, but that it's the little mustard seed, that I will believe will grow into a huge fruitful tree structure.
btw, what are the current requirements to be eligible as a rep for classis, to be on the current council? a brief synopsis would be great, or if you can direct me to whatever governing documents states them.
may the LORD bless you as a leader in implementing the necessary structural changes in our denomination, for His Kingdom...
I will be honest, my husband and I have not given much to ministry shares, and what you mention is one reason:
When individuals suspect that these structures are resistant to influence, cynicism rises and motivation to serve wanes. This threat is like a hardening of the arteries for our church and should be resisted ...
I struggle with paying substantial salaries to our leaders... no matter how bright and gifted they might be, and therefore am not a cheerful giver when it goes to ministry shares...
on Fri. of last week, one of my clients paid me, and I felt the Spirit nudge "this time Bev, tithe to the ministry shares."
This morning, as I was thinking about the "long" prayer question some more, I was reminded of a very long prayer, one that lasted over 100 years. The Moravians in 1727 started praying 24/7 in one hour shifts known as the Hourly Intercession, and this continued for over 100 years... through it they pioneered lay missionaries, sending the first lay missionaries out in 1732 or so... in 1780's William Carey, the father of modern missions, read an article about what the Moravians were doing and so he went to his baptist brethren, and asked "why can't we do what the Moravians have done"... it wasn't well received at first, and it was several more years before his mission work began with the support of his denomination...
may the fire on the altar never go out... Lev. 6:13
Thanks Paul... in agreement on prayer being our chief work... so then that is where we should be spending significant time and energy, but I'm not finding that to be the case yet.
I have found people are very sensitive about their prayer life - they know they should be praying, and yet often are not and so feel guilty when it's mentioned which unfortunately seems to make them more resistant - I can sense almost immediately when I bring up prayer with someone, whether they "get it" or not. They will say things like, "that's your gift, not mine." or "that's interesting" then change the subject or some other "avoidance" technique or intellectual argument. If they "get it", we usually end up talking and praying together for an extended time. Do I push it? All I have to do is mention it and usually within a few seconds, their response will clue me in on where they're at with their prayer life. I don't do this to judge anyone - I love to talk about Jesus, and prayer will come up because it's a significant part of my life as part of my relationship with Him, and what I'm "busy" with when I'm asked if I'm busy. Through these conversations, I often gain insight to pray on their behalf. Does it make me better than them? No, I know what my prayer life was like before God graciously transformed it several years ago... it was a duty of 0-15 minutes a day, listing out my requests, maybe a little confession, praise, thanksgiving, but mostly requests... and a see You later God, maybe tomorrow, maybe not, depends if I remember and how busy/tired I am. My prayer life was pretty weak for a long time and He transformed it over several years, with several key experiences that changed prayer from duty to delight. It has made me a better believer in comparison to where I was.
It's my heart cry that prayer will be a delight instead of a duty for every believer, that we all learn to hear the Shepherd's voice clearly... I don't know how many times I get "confessions" of prayerlessness with many reasons... and it's really obvious when it comes to corporate prayer. I would be interested in doing a survey of how many crc churches have a regular night of prayer every week...
I keep asking God, "how long do I have to pray for prayer?" Pastors have no problem preaching a sermon on tithing/giving when the church's bank account balance is getting low... there's an objective tangible sign of a giving issue and so it's addressed (and the fact that their salary is involved just might have something to do with it =)... the sign of lack of prayer is not so obvious... but one you mentioned, fruitlessness in ministry, which is more difficult to recognize and address, and people tend to get very defensive when their program fails and you suggest that maybe we should spend more time in prayer- as i already shared, we are sensitive about our prayer life and "don't you dare suggest in any way that I don't pray" type attitude.
I'm pretty sure I've never heard a sermon that our prayer bank account is getting low, and it's time to step it up with prayer time (I don't like the results of my speculation on the reason for that). I just sense really hard ground as we are praying for break through with prayer, particularly in the conservative Christian culture, but hope i'm wrong.
As one author/pastor, Daniel Henderson, humorously puts it, our traditional corporate prayers are more like an "organ" recital. mostly praying for peoples organs; heart, lungs, health issues, I'm sure as a pastor you know what i mean.
The following is from his book "fresh encounters; experiencing transformation through united worship based prayer"
Our pastors minister in a prayerless, success - oriented culture.
"Man of prayer" no longer ranks high on the typical list of desirable traits for the local church pastor. Usually, the driven, over-achieving, "can-do" person is most admired in our society - and our churches. Recently, I was in Utah teaching a prayer seminar at a state-wide church leadership conference. After my session, a man approached m explaining that he was the chairman of the pastoral search committee for a congregation in that area. He pulled out a list of more than 85 desirable attributes for their next pastor. the inventory had been compiled through a recent survey of the congregation. many of the qualities centered on communication skills, management ability, pleasant personality, and strong pastoral care interests. Nowhere on the list was there any mention of the priority of prayer as an essential characteristic for the new pastor. American society tends to value strong, natural leadership, dynamic programming (and I would add dynamic personalities), entertaining services, and impressive technology. The idea of a pastor locked away in extended prayer does not strike the average churchgoer as a mark of effective (and I would add efficient) leadership. Some church members think it wastes time if the pastor spends energy attending prayer meetings. Many pastors realize this and decide not to go against the grain. Fresh Encounters; p 57-58, Nav Press, 2008.
so yes, prayer should be a quiet, unseen thing, but I'm not sure if it's happening at any substantial level, and the stress signs from the possible lack thereof are starting to become apparent (one sign being the "unhealthy culture in leadership") . Something is amiss. Are we willing to admit that might be part of the problem? or at least look into the possibility that it's a concern, or are we going to resist? In Moses' welcome speech, he shared how the pastor at the church in Korea spent 3 hrs/day in prayer... I think we would see significant change if we even have an hour/day (average) by every pastor/leader in the denom (survey results: 85% of pastors pray less than 15 min/day) http://www.worldwideprayer.com/pastorsstatistics.html ;
survey results of 1050 presbyterian and reformed pastors: 26% describe their relationship with Jesus as healthy as in having regular devotions and felt they were adequately fed spiritually
Are you familiar with Count Zinzendorf and the Moravians? They are some of my prayer heroes. I would love to see a study of them added to teaching our confessions =)
and I will check into what it takes to be involved at the classis level... again, thx for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to read mine.
Sorry Ken, didn't even think about the political aspect... there are good things about each political group and there are negative things about each, so let's pray that God brings forth the goodness in each, and pushes back what is not from Him in each...that He purges, cleanses and redeems these systems of politics and the government...but of course, may He start with our hearts...
Now if we'll just direct that creative energy into worship... God is pouring out the gifts in the creative sphere for His glory, for 24/7 worship... Ex. 31:3,6 I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of "crafts" to make artistic works... I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans. So, let's get this God given creativity being used for His Kingdom... I senses that there are many more in the 15-30ish age group that are chomping at the bit to used their gifts in a meaningful Kingdom way. This is a good start...
ps...thanks for the confirmation, through your daughter, of gifted musicians/worshippers in this area...I (and others) are praying into the opportunity to increase their worship participation in different ways so that there will be several locations in the county where worship is going on 24/7... Jesus, may Your Name be lifted up 24/7 in Whatcom County, and the United States and the whole world for that matter...
Posted in: Next Steps for Me...and for The Network
I really appreciate the network, and the opportunity to share and sharpen ideas/test thoughts that might be from the LORD, or whatever might be on your heart, with other believers that come from a similar perspective (mainly reformed)...
I have to laugh, last fall, about this time, I mentioned to a crc leader in the area, that I had some concerns about our denomination, and some of our position statements, etc. The response was basically, no one locally cares (i'm in the pnw), and it won't make any difference at the denominational level. So i thought, well LORD, I know I won't make a difference on my own, but I know You can, and You can use me if You want to.
When I first learned about the network in Febr. this year, I joined. I have been blessed by the many thoughtful, honest posts, seeking God's way of doing His Church. I have been encouraged by the expression of others, seeking better understanding of what it means to listen to and be led by the Holy Spirit. I have seen answers to prayers, that i believe the LORD put on my heart about His Church, and seeing posts that start to bring up some of the concepts. Other posts give insight on how to pray on behalf of His Bride, and some specifically for the crc denomination.
I too wish more people would share their thoughts here, and I encourage everyone to do so, because that helps the Body/Bride of Christ work together better for the common good, and we are much healthier.
Posted in: Drama Queen
Got a good chuckle out of your intro...
great points, worth a lot more discussion...
definitely agree with the quiet shift of resources to more local ministries. I know we (my husband and I) feel the tension when our church's ministry shares are short, but we feel led to support the local prayer ministry I'm involved with instead.
Posted in: The Long Prayer
I'm with you Colin, that our long prayer is too short... I'm sorry but if we consider 2 minutes a long prayer, we're in trouble... sorry, another pet peeve of mine is when we will have a minute or so of silent prayer and it's 10, maybe 15 seconds... dang, it takes more time than that (usually a lot more) to be still and quiet our souls...
it's already next to impossible to convince people that we should be praying corporately together in addition to the Sunday svc. I've heard so many excuses, one excuse I've heard, is it's easier to let someone else pray... argh!!! this one is sad and funny... they weren't sure if God heard them when they prayed in Dutch... of course He does... if He can understand praying in tongues, Dutch is a piece of cake... oh, wait, did I mention praying in tongues on a CRC forum... oops! That one people are really uncomfortable with... even if it's not done corporately...
We have almost completely lost corporate prayer... it's "Our Father", it's teach US how to pray, they were praying in one accord, NT prayer was often in a communal context (Acts 1:14; 4:24).. even the prayer "closet" in the KJV times (1600's), was the kings and queens sitting room off their chamber that was used as a gathering place with their closest friends and family, it was not our modern day concept of our closets...
crying while we're praying... in the CRC?!?! Praise God... it might not be pretty, but it's powerful, those tears are powerful prayers... Jesus prayed with tears... it's called travail, don't know that I've seen it too often in the CRC... and yes, it does make us uncomfortable, because we aren't used to it. LORD, multiply the tears in prayer on behalf of the hurting and wounded... in fact, a few days ago, I just listened to the late David Wilkersons "A call to anguish"... let's see if I can find the link again..it's about 7 minutes.
http://video.christianpost.com/a-call-to-anguish-by-david-wilkerson-2506/
I'm sure the scriptures mention the concept of crying out to God" several times... pretty sure it was usually King David, who was a man after God's heart...
here's a powerful testimony by Keith Green...about 1:50 in he shares on when he wrote Oh LORD, You're beautiful... and how he was feeling cold and distant in his relationship, and so God "told" him..."cry", and Keith said I can't or don't feel like cyring... God "said" "I'll wait"... the result is this amazing song... this video doesn't have all the verses, so I encourage you to check out all the verses...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di4Pw93fKv8&feature=player_embedded
my prayer is that instead of people saying "I'll pray for you", they will pray for that person right on the spot, whether it's over the phone or in the back of church, or in the grocery store, or at the park, or wherever it comes up... my prayer is that we'll be praying and worshipping 24/7... just like in the temple of David...
but back to corporate prayer... we somehow have gotten significantly out of balance between private and corporate prayer... they are both equally important... I apologize if my frustration with our lack of enthusiasm for corporate prayer is coming through with snarky remarks... hehehehe =)
btw, Colin... are you going to be able to make it to the prayer summit next week... and was the young adult, Rudy's son, and if so how long ago was this? (I met Rudy at the prayer summit at the Firs in B'ham last yearish). thx. Bev S (Susan Dotinga's niece from Lynden)
Posted in: The Long Prayer
here's Keith's song with all the verses... very powerful... especially if you've never heard v2 and 3...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVgPQm06g2c&feature=related
Posted in: Classis: The Right Tool for Three Important Needs
Thanks Paul for taking on this corner of the network for a while... I too believe, God will use this tool to connect those with an "interest" in these concerns... Last year, I mentioned some of my denominational concerns with a local CRC leader, and the response was essentially no one cares, and you won't make any difference at the denominational level. Well, I didn't receive that, and was a "little" put out, and frustrated, so I prayed, and educated myself more on what's going on at the higher levels of the CRC... I had kind of given up for a while, then joined the network when they sent out the email in late Feb, then I was struggling with some issue again, and briefly thought with a defeatist attitude, I don't care if I'm in disagreement...and the Holy Spirit really impressed on me that it is very important to be in one accord... If I'm a part of this denomination, then I need to be praying and working toward being in agreement, however that might look...
a couple of concepts that we have used in our area (not through classis though) are seek God for Lynden, based on seek God for the city... we gather as "the church of Lynden", not as one particular church or denomination...
Houston prays is another powerful ministry that connects churches in a regional area... I have met the director for this ministry, and see amazing things going on in the Houston area... here's one for example:
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=FB1B9CNU a powerful celebration of diversity, as 2000 believers come together in Houston to celebrate the Risen LORD, with dance... this is a beautiful picture of young and old, and various ethnicities all celebrating Christ. I cry just about every time I watch it...
the 3rd example is the Light of the World Prayer center that is a county wide prayer center. again, a beautiful blend of believers from various streams, reformed, pentecostal, baptist, catholic, etc. praying together. This is what we have found to be the most powerful way that unity in spirit is achieved, is when we pray together. A couple of weeks ago, we had reformed, mennonite and baptist pastors and area leaders praying together for 3 days. I believe this is very significant for reconciliation, because of our role in the split with the anabaptists many years ago... some might say ancient history, but as I've become more involved in digging into the roots of some issues, they can go back a long way.
One of the rays of hope for me is that since we (the crc) reversed our position on cessationism, as we did in 1973, a significant change of doctrine, then it's possible that these other issues I struggle with can be worked out as well.
Like you said, confessing that there is something unhealthy is a good start... Now LORD, purge, purify and cleanse us of what is not from You... Raise up Spirit led leaders that are men and women of prayer... those who know that prayer is life or death for our denomination...In Your precious Son's Name...JESUS!
Posted in: Classis: The Right Tool for Three Important Needs
As i was walking the track for relay for life in the wee am hours, another possibility entered my mind, for helping bring unity... Dr. Alvin Vander Griend of the CRC and Harvest Prayer ministries (author of Love to Pray, Joy of Prayer, Praying the Father's Heart), has a wonderful teaching on a culture of prayer. I am on the Light of the World prayer board with him, and so can't believe I forgot about it. He has expressed interest in going to regional areas and inviting particularly the CRC and RC from that area for a combined gathering focusing on prayer, helping to bring increased unity through prayer. Hope that helps.
http://harvestprayer.com/
Posted in: Why Synod Needs Classis
thanks Paul. your post brought tears to my eyes... it was beautiful insight, and I will pray that it will not be soon forgotten, but that it's the little mustard seed, that I will believe will grow into a huge fruitful tree structure.
btw, what are the current requirements to be eligible as a rep for classis, to be on the current council? a brief synopsis would be great, or if you can direct me to whatever governing documents states them.
may the LORD bless you as a leader in implementing the necessary structural changes in our denomination, for His Kingdom...
I will be honest, my husband and I have not given much to ministry shares, and what you mention is one reason:
When individuals suspect that these structures are resistant to influence, cynicism rises and motivation to serve wanes. This threat is like a hardening of the arteries for our church and should be resisted ...
I struggle with paying substantial salaries to our leaders... no matter how bright and gifted they might be, and therefore am not a cheerful giver when it goes to ministry shares...
on Fri. of last week, one of my clients paid me, and I felt the Spirit nudge "this time Bev, tithe to the ministry shares."
Posted in: The Long Prayer
This morning, as I was thinking about the "long" prayer question some more, I was reminded of a very long prayer, one that lasted over 100 years. The Moravians in 1727 started praying 24/7 in one hour shifts known as the Hourly Intercession, and this continued for over 100 years... through it they pioneered lay missionaries, sending the first lay missionaries out in 1732 or so... in 1780's William Carey, the father of modern missions, read an article about what the Moravians were doing and so he went to his baptist brethren, and asked "why can't we do what the Moravians have done"... it wasn't well received at first, and it was several more years before his mission work began with the support of his denomination...
may the fire on the altar never go out... Lev. 6:13
Posted in: Classis: The Right Tool for Three Important Needs
Thanks Paul... in agreement on prayer being our chief work... so then that is where we should be spending significant time and energy, but I'm not finding that to be the case yet.
I have found people are very sensitive about their prayer life - they know they should be praying, and yet often are not and so feel guilty when it's mentioned which unfortunately seems to make them more resistant - I can sense almost immediately when I bring up prayer with someone, whether they "get it" or not. They will say things like, "that's your gift, not mine." or "that's interesting" then change the subject or some other "avoidance" technique or intellectual argument. If they "get it", we usually end up talking and praying together for an extended time. Do I push it? All I have to do is mention it and usually within a few seconds, their response will clue me in on where they're at with their prayer life. I don't do this to judge anyone - I love to talk about Jesus, and prayer will come up because it's a significant part of my life as part of my relationship with Him, and what I'm "busy" with when I'm asked if I'm busy. Through these conversations, I often gain insight to pray on their behalf. Does it make me better than them? No, I know what my prayer life was like before God graciously transformed it several years ago... it was a duty of 0-15 minutes a day, listing out my requests, maybe a little confession, praise, thanksgiving, but mostly requests... and a see You later God, maybe tomorrow, maybe not, depends if I remember and how busy/tired I am. My prayer life was pretty weak for a long time and He transformed it over several years, with several key experiences that changed prayer from duty to delight. It has made me a better believer in comparison to where I was.
It's my heart cry that prayer will be a delight instead of a duty for every believer, that we all learn to hear the Shepherd's voice clearly... I don't know how many times I get "confessions" of prayerlessness with many reasons... and it's really obvious when it comes to corporate prayer. I would be interested in doing a survey of how many crc churches have a regular night of prayer every week...
I keep asking God, "how long do I have to pray for prayer?" Pastors have no problem preaching a sermon on tithing/giving when the church's bank account balance is getting low... there's an objective tangible sign of a giving issue and so it's addressed (and the fact that their salary is involved just might have something to do with it =)... the sign of lack of prayer is not so obvious... but one you mentioned, fruitlessness in ministry, which is more difficult to recognize and address, and people tend to get very defensive when their program fails and you suggest that maybe we should spend more time in prayer- as i already shared, we are sensitive about our prayer life and "don't you dare suggest in any way that I don't pray" type attitude.
I'm pretty sure I've never heard a sermon that our prayer bank account is getting low, and it's time to step it up with prayer time (I don't like the results of my speculation on the reason for that). I just sense really hard ground as we are praying for break through with prayer, particularly in the conservative Christian culture, but hope i'm wrong.
As one author/pastor, Daniel Henderson, humorously puts it, our traditional corporate prayers are more like an "organ" recital. mostly praying for peoples organs; heart, lungs, health issues, I'm sure as a pastor you know what i mean.
The following is from his book "fresh encounters; experiencing transformation through united worship based prayer"
Our pastors minister in a prayerless, success - oriented culture.
"Man of prayer" no longer ranks high on the typical list of desirable traits for the local church pastor. Usually, the driven, over-achieving, "can-do" person is most admired in our society - and our churches. Recently, I was in Utah teaching a prayer seminar at a state-wide church leadership conference. After my session, a man approached m explaining that he was the chairman of the pastoral search committee for a congregation in that area. He pulled out a list of more than 85 desirable attributes for their next pastor. the inventory had been compiled through a recent survey of the congregation. many of the qualities centered on communication skills, management ability, pleasant personality, and strong pastoral care interests. Nowhere on the list was there any mention of the priority of prayer as an essential characteristic for the new pastor. American society tends to value strong, natural leadership, dynamic programming (and I would add dynamic personalities), entertaining services, and impressive technology. The idea of a pastor locked away in extended prayer does not strike the average churchgoer as a mark of effective (and I would add efficient) leadership. Some church members think it wastes time if the pastor spends energy attending prayer meetings. Many pastors realize this and decide not to go against the grain. Fresh Encounters; p 57-58, Nav Press, 2008.
so yes, prayer should be a quiet, unseen thing, but I'm not sure if it's happening at any substantial level, and the stress signs from the possible lack thereof are starting to become apparent (one sign being the "unhealthy culture in leadership") . Something is amiss. Are we willing to admit that might be part of the problem? or at least look into the possibility that it's a concern, or are we going to resist? In Moses' welcome speech, he shared how the pastor at the church in Korea spent 3 hrs/day in prayer... I think we would see significant change if we even have an hour/day (average) by every pastor/leader in the denom (survey results: 85% of pastors pray less than 15 min/day) http://www.worldwideprayer.com/pastorsstatistics.html ;
survey results of 1050 presbyterian and reformed pastors: 26% describe their relationship with Jesus as healthy as in having regular devotions and felt they were adequately fed spiritually
- .http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/default.asp?articleid=36562
Are you familiar with Count Zinzendorf and the Moravians? They are some of my prayer heroes. I would love to see a study of them added to teaching our confessions =)
and I will check into what it takes to be involved at the classis level... again, thx for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to read mine.
Posted in: Is it Important for Youth to Attend Church with Their Parents?
Sorry Ken, didn't even think about the political aspect... there are good things about each political group and there are negative things about each, so let's pray that God brings forth the goodness in each, and pushes back what is not from Him in each...that He purges, cleanses and redeems these systems of politics and the government...but of course, may He start with our hearts...
Posted in: What's In A Name? [VIDEO]
That is so good!!
Now if we'll just direct that creative energy into worship... God is pouring out the gifts in the creative sphere for His glory, for 24/7 worship... Ex. 31:3,6 I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of "crafts" to make artistic works... I have put wisdom in the hearts of all the gifted artisans. So, let's get this God given creativity being used for His Kingdom... I senses that there are many more in the 15-30ish age group that are chomping at the bit to used their gifts in a meaningful Kingdom way. This is a good start...
Posted in: Is it Important for Youth to Attend Church with Their Parents?
ps...thanks for the confirmation, through your daughter, of gifted musicians/worshippers in this area...I (and others) are praying into the opportunity to increase their worship participation in different ways so that there will be several locations in the county where worship is going on 24/7... Jesus, may Your Name be lifted up 24/7 in Whatcom County, and the United States and the whole world for that matter...