I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Several commentaries refer to childbirth as part of the curse. Only the ground and the serpent were specifically cursed in Genesis 3. Weeds and pain/sorrow in childbirth are consequences, not a curse. Maybe it’s semantics for some, but I believe there are significant differences between a consequence and curse. Instead of a curse, God gave Eve the promise that her seed would bring about the One Who would crush the enemy.
Children, and every person, are a precious and priceless blessing!
I’ve made a list of interesting excerpts from commentaries for a bit of an idea of how this verse was interpreted:
Ellicott’s…: Though their life duties must be different from those of men—yet for them, too, as for men, there was one glorious goal; but for them—the women of Christ—the only road to the goal was the faithful, true carrying out of the quiet home duties he had just sketched out for them. In other words, women will win the great salvation; but if they would win it, they must fulfil their destiny; they must acquiesce in all the conditions of a woman’s life—in the forefront of which St. Paul places the all-important functions and duties of a mother.
Benson: The apostle having intimated that the man was superior by creation, and the subjection of the woman increased by the fall…
Matthew Henry: As woman was last in the creation, which is one reason for her subjection, so she was first in the transgression. But there is a word of comfort; that those who continue in sobriety, shall be saved in child-bearing, or with child-bearing, by the Messiah, who was born of a woman. And the especial sorrow to which the female sex is subject, should cause men to exercise their authority with much gentleness, tenderness, and affection.
Barnes: In regard to the nature of the consolation referred to here, there has been a considerable variety of opinion. Some have held, that by the expression "she shall be saved in child-bearing," the apostle designs to include all the duties of the maternal relation, meaning that she should be saved through the faithful performance of her duties as a mother.
More from Barnes: The general sentiments of the Jews in regard to the salvation of the female sex, and their exclusion from the religious privileges which men enjoy; the views of the Muslims in reference to the inferiority of the sex; and the prevalent feelings in the pagan world, degrading the sex and making their condition, in regard to salvation, far inferior to that of man, show the propriety of what the apostle here says, and the fitness that he should so guard himself that his language could not possibly be construed so as to give countenance to such a sentiment.
Jamieson – Fausset – Brown: sobriety—"sober-mindedness" (see on [2468]1Ti 2:9, as contrasted with the unseemly forwardness reproved in 1Ti 2:11). Mental receptivity and activity in family life were recognized in Christianity as the destiny of woman. One reason alleged here by Paul, is the greater danger of self-deception in the weaker sex, and the spread of errors arising from it, especially in a class of addresses in which sober reflectiveness is least in exercise [Neander]. The case (Ac 21:9) was doubtless in private, not in public.
Matthew Poole: Though the woman was so unhappy as to be deceived by the serpent, and to be the first in taking the forbidden fruit, and an instrument to entice her husband to do the like, which may give all of that sex a cause of humiliation, and show them the reasonableness of God’s order in putting them in subjection to man, and prohibiting them to break God’s order in usurping authority over the man; yet through the gracious interposition of the Mediator, (afterward born of a woman), she hath no reason to despair, either of a temporal salvation, from the peril and danger of child-birth, or, much less, of an eternal salvation, for… she shall be saved;
Meyer’s: after the apostle has forbidden to the woman any activity in church assemblies as unbecoming to her, he now points to the destiny assigned her by God, the fulfilment of which brings salvation to her.
Geneva Study Bible: He adds a comfort by the way, that their subjection does not hinder women from being saved as well as men, if they behave themselves in those duties of marriage in a holy and modest manner, with faith and charity.
Expositor’s Greek Testament: So St. Paul, taking the common-sense view that childbearing, rather than public teaching or the direction of affairs, is woman’s primary function duty, privilege and dignity, reminds Timothy and his readers that there was another aspect of the story in Genesis besides that of woman’s taking the initiative in transgression: the pains of childbirth were her sentence, yet in undergoing these she finds her salvation.
Cambridge Bible for Schools…: ‘through her childbearing’: ‘her child-bearing which is her curse may be her highest blessing, as with man’s doom, labour; her domestic life and duties, the sphere of woman’s mission, St Paul lays great stress on good works, the performance of the common duties of life, in opposition to the irregularities of the times; and yet adds the necessary previous condition “if they abide in faith”
Joao Pedro, thanks for taking time to read and respond...
God's word is perspicuous, yet He hides truth from the wise and reveals them to children (Matt 11:25-27). Yet, most of the Jewish leaders completely missed Jesus as Messiah even though they searched the Hebrew scriptures (John 5). Yet, Jesus speaks in parables that caused confusion and even His disciples did not understand (Matthew). Yet, He encourages us to be Bereans and test what we have been taught and examine and search His Word to see if it agrees (Acts 17). Yet, He warns us that traditions of man can nullify His word (Matt 15/ Mark 7)! Yet, Jerome's translation of the Greek metanoia into the Latin do penance influenced the church for over 1000 years and spawned indulgences. Yet, Jerome's Latin Vulgate left out the little phrase that Adam was with her (Eve) in Genesis 3:6 that perpetuated permission to put all the blame is on Eve for centuries. Yet, the Septuagint (including the Wisdom of Sirach) was considered canon for centuries (and still is canon in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions).
Time, traditions, and translations have all impacted the original writings and context. We are warned to test everything! (1 Thess 5)
There are a variety of reasons why 1 Tim 2:15 is not a "simple", "plain", and "straightforward" text. That this passage and this verse is considered to be one of the most difficult passages of Scripture is a pretty common view. Partly because the original context has rarely been considered for hundreds of years. If the original culture obscures what it says in our translation, then we need to take another look and see what we might have missed or lost in translation. I believe the original context clarifies and instead traditions of man have obscured the meaning.
The very rare Greek word authentein translated as "exercising authority" (the only time authentein is even used in the NT is in 1 Tim 2:12), has only become the primary translation in the last 120 years. Before 1900 AD most translations had a negative type of behavior for authentein. Getting the Whole Picture, Part 6: The Shift | CRC Network
The earliest translations (Early Latin versions; 150-400 AD) implied "domineering" or "lording it over", something Jesus specifically said none of His followers are to do. See comments in the following link for list of translations' rendering of "authentein": Getting the Whole Picture, Part 7: The Shift Continues | CRC Network
Eve was not exercising authority over Adam. Adam deliberately disobeyed. Eve didn't force him. He was there, he knew that tree was off limits, he heard the discussion, he assessed what happened (or didn't happen) to Eve and he chose to eat as well when she offered him the fruit. They both failed in seeking God before choosing to eat from that specific tree!
Being fruitful and multiplying is a collaborative, mutual mandate for husbands and wives... and the two shall become one! Husband and wife become one in marriage, but also through their children. Children and family are a blessing and mutual responsibility for both parents, it is not exclusive to one or the other (see Prov 31 for additional ways women are a blessing to husband, family and community)! and yes, the promise given to Eve that there would be Someone to crush the enemy is also the reason there is specific enmity by the enemy against women and mothers. Women have been viewed as inferior for most of history. That has only changed in some parts of the world in the last 100 years, because even now, sadly, much of the world still believes that.
Joao Pedro, if I'm wrong / being deceived, I want to know, so I appreciate your heart for God's truth.
I hope you would also be open to examining and testing the basic hermeneutical aspects that I share (original cultural context, original languages, scriptural context (see prior PARTS of series).
I think we can both agree that we both seek God's truth. My biblical theology / covenantal lens that impacts my worldview includes the mutual one another principle along with other aspects of God's word that searching and testing have brought to my attention. I think the cultural context expands our lens to get a more complete picture of what God is saying to us here, an important aspect that has been largely missed in discussions surrounding 1 Timothy 2:15, not denying these basic beliefs.
I think we both agree salvation is by grace through Jesus Christ (the Messianic promise given to Eve), for both men and women, not based on any work, including having children. (some English translations use "women" instead of the singular third person Greek for "she", and some versions add "the" to childbearing to imply the specific birth of Jesus as the Savior, both are subtle yet significant modifications of the Greek)
I think we both agree that being fruitful and multiplying is a joint mandate for husbands and wives.
I think we both agree that family is an important part of God's plan.
I think we can both agree that a plain reading of being kept safe in childbearing can include both physical and spiritual safety/ preservation through Jesus. There are multiple dimensions of "sozo" used in scripture. Paul is reassuring someone that is anxious about childbirth, there is no reason for fear in Christ, continue walking in faith. sóphrosuné is literally sanity which has been translated as propriety, modesty, moderation, sound minded, sobriety, and self control/ restraint! Strong's Greek: 4997. σωφροσύνη (sóphrosuné) -- Soundness of mind, self-control, temperance, moderation
Thanks for sharing this, Carol. The very real stories are absolutely heartbreaking!
The welfare system itself is designed for people to fail. That is why people in poverty gamble, there's more hope with gambling than the government.
Sometimes people will criticize help given to a person and say it didn't make a difference for the person in moving forward with the help. Your post reminds me of how help can prevent people from going 3-10 steps backwards and instead go backwards only a step or two. Sometimes it's not about moving forward but about limiting how far backwards a person goes. We have to take the long-term view.
I walk alongside several women who need housing but don't have any credit or don't have good enough credit or have something on their record that disqualifies them. We have given them temporary shelter as we wait for long term housing. I have someone who made significant changes in her life including her faith, got a job at the church she was attending, and the church's insurance wouldn't allow her to work there bc of her record. Our society still has a "yellow ticket of leave" (a ticket to show one is a convict, a symbol of social rejection, Jean Valjean, Les Miserables)... I thought we were done with that! Unfortunately, it just looks different in today's world!
One woman in her 50's bought a car with $500 down payment and a loan for $10k from a sketchy dealership for 3-4x the blue book value. She had never bought a car before and had no idea what the "blue book" for cars was! She ended up abandoning the car after about 6 months, but it did help her get her license again after 15 years and her DUI requirements taken care of. It was a costly lesson for her and very frustrating for us! She didn't know better and made things much harder for herself! & in our state, there are no buyer remorse laws to return a car in 3 days! That's part of the systemic problem!
I could share so many stories of people in poverty that are struggling in so many ways! We, as the Family of God, have significantly abdicated our responsibility to the poor and needy!
Thanks for taking time to thoughtfully read and respond Rob.
Thankfully we have come along ways since Rabbi Sira’s misogynist views in 180BC, but most of the change regarding how women are viewed as equal in worth and value instead of inferior is mostly in the last 100 years or so. Sadly, for billions around the world, women are still considered inferior. Maybe not US, Canada, and other first world nations, but there are plenty of other places that this is still the majority view of women. We, as God’s family here on earth, have a lot of work to do to help bring equality and worth for all those made in God’s image, that others discover and know their true identity in Christ!
For Adam and Eve, what I see as far worse than Eve not conferring with Adam, they both did not confer with God. They were in close relationship with Him, walking and talking together in the garden. God’s heart is that we seek Him, spend time with Him and seek His heart together. This was not A&E’s response. We, His people, still seem slow to respond by seeking His heart together. Sadly, statistics indicate our collective prayer times are minimal. It is estimated, based on surveys, that only about 5% of congregations have a specific prayer time together in addition to the weekly worship gatherings.
I use confer instead of defer because the marriage relationship is a mutual one, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, and the two shall become one. Jesus even quotes the two shall become one. Mutual sharing of responsibility!
There are some problems with using 1 Tim 2:12-14 to support the prohibition of women leading/authority over and teaching men based on “created order”.
One problem is it has only been since about 1900 that the rare Greek word authentein has become a neutral or positive authority as the primarily translation. Until about 150 AD, it was almost always used in a negative sense or situation, especially in the context of human relationships, and even then, most of the translations of 1 Timothy 2:12 until about 1900 had a negative connotation for authentein as well. A general authority is not the historical meaning. There was a very significant shift from negative meaning to positive meaning over the ages that needs to be taken into consideration.
Another problem is that the historical cultural context of the pantheon of pagan deities in Ephesus has rarely been considered over the ages. Somehow that context almost completely disappeared over time, until the last 50 years or so.
Based on the research I have done, I believe Paul’s point is there is a woman at the Ephesus church who is teaching a false order of creation that was circulating based on pagan influences, and he refers to the Genesis account to correct her version. One of the main purposes of this letter to Timothy is addressing false teaching infiltrating the ekklesia of Ephesus, including through new believers converting from pagan beliefs.
If our focus is loving and serving one another as the family of God, with Christ as our example, our relationships will not be based on any hierarchy of power dynamics or limitations of who can lead, preach, teach (and prophesy?) in church. The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network
1 Corinthians 14 is ironically probably the most inclusive chapter for all, y’all, everyone, each, anyone, the whole church (over 70 inclusive words in this chapter) participating in the gatherings of believers in various ways. Gathered: Whenever You Come Together | CRC Network
Male passivity is part of the problem, passivity by a majority of the congregation (priesthood of all believers) is part of the problem, along with abuses of power, deception (which God warns us about at least 30x in the NT), and that so many are compromised with a porn problem. These are all an entire discussion on their own.
All that to say, there are serious questions and concerns about the complementarian created order view, 1 Timothy 2 and universal limited roles of women. It's fine as a personal preference / choice, but using created order as the reason needs deeper examination using the mutual lens of Genesis 1 & 2 compared to a hierarchical lens.
V1 (Y’all) Follow the way of love and (y’all) eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy (that y’all may prophesy). +3x
V2 For anyone (he) who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people (men) but to God. Indeed, no one understands them (him); they (he)utter mysteries by the Spirit. 2011 NIV (1984 NIV, ESV, KJVs, etc use 3-4 male terms) +5x=8x cumulative
V3 But the one/everyone (he) who prophesies speaks to people (men)for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. +2x =10x
V4 Anyone (He) who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves (himself), but the one (he) who prophesies edifies the church. +3x=13x
V5 I would like every one of you / all y’all to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you /y’all prophesy. The one (He) who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone (he) interprets, so that the church may be edified. +6x=19x
V6 Now, brothers and sisters (brothers), if I come to you /y’all and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you /y’all, unless I bring you /y’all some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? +4x=23x
V7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone (no word in Greek) know (it be known) what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? +1x=24x
V8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? +1x=25x
V9 So it is with you / y’all. Unless you /y’all speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you (no Greek word) are saying (is being said)? You / Y’all will just be speaking into the air. +5x=29x
V10
V11
V12 So it is with you / y’all. Since you / y’all are eager for gifts of the Spirit, y’all try to excel in those that build up the church. +3x=32x
V13 For this reason the one /anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that they (he) may interpret what they (he) say. +x1=33x
V14
V15
V16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else (he), who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they (he) do not know what you are saying?
V17
V18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you/ all y’all. +2x=35x
V19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. +2x=37x
V20 Brothers and sisters (Brothers), (ya’ll) stop thinking like children. In regard to evil (ya’ll) be infants, but in your / y’all’s thinking be adults. +4x=41x
V21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners (men of strange tongues) I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” +3x=44x
V22
V23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you / y’all are out of your mind? +4=48x
V24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone/all is prophesying, **they are (he will be) convicted of sin / convinced (“of sin” is not in the Greek, 1984 NIV is “convinced by all that he is a sinner”) (“by all” in Greek but not 2011 NIV) and are brought under judgment / examined by all… (**very interesting comparing this verse to various translations) +3x=51x
V25 as the secrets of their (his) hearts are laid bare. So they (he) will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you / y’all!” (+1x=52x)
V26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters (brothers)? When you / y’all come together, each of you (everyone) has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything /all must be done so that the church (not in the Greek here) may be built up. +5x=57x
V27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. +2x=59x
V28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself (3rd person singular, not specifically male) and to God.
V29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. +1=60x
V30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. +1 =61x
V31 For you (y’all) can all prophesy in turn so that everyone (all) may be instructed and (all) encouraged. +4x=65x
V32
V33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people (saints). +3x=68x
V34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. +1=69x
V35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. +1=70x
V36 Or did the word of God originate with you / y’all? Or are you / y’all the only people (Not in Greek) it has reached? +2x=72x
V37 If anyone thinks they (he) are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them (him) acknowledge that what I am writing to you / ya’ll is the Lord’s command. +2x=74x
V38 But if anyone (he) ignores this, they will themselves (he himself) be ignored. +1x=75x
V39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters (brothers), (y’all) be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues +2x=77x
V40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
FYI, there are about 25 male references in the 1984 NIV, however the Greek is actually very inclusive.
Every tribe, every tongue, every people, every nation. What a beautiful expression of God's Kingdom family!
Sometimes I will attend one of the Slavic congregations in our community and the smaller one will have a translator just for me, or the larger congregation gives out headsets with the translation. I think the smaller one now does headsets as well for the translation.
HIGH PRAISE! It's a powerful biblical concept that the reformed tradition doesn't seem to be very comfortable with (yet?) for various reasons. Yet, it is the biblical HALLELUYAHs in Psalms 146-150, exuberant, intense, loud!
Thank you David! I LOVE the "one another" principle~ God does too, as He gives us 59 commands on how to relate with one another (14 of them are to love one another incl John 13:34-35, and several are how not to relate)!
I firmly believe when we, His family, follow these, many conflicts / divisions will disappear!
Thanks for taking the time to read it David! It's not that there won't be differences and disagreements, so I also appreciate the Moravian motto: in the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials, freedom, and in all things love!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 15: Women, Childbirth, Salvation, and Leadership
I TIMOTHY 2:15
Here’s a link if you want to check out commentaries on this verse, the commentaries are quite eye opening! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
Several commentaries refer to childbirth as part of the curse. Only the ground and the serpent were specifically cursed in Genesis 3. Weeds and pain/sorrow in childbirth are consequences, not a curse. Maybe it’s semantics for some, but I believe there are significant differences between a consequence and curse. Instead of a curse, God gave Eve the promise that her seed would bring about the One Who would crush the enemy.
Children, and every person, are a precious and priceless blessing!
I’ve made a list of interesting excerpts from commentaries for a bit of an idea of how this verse was interpreted:
Ellicott’s…: Though their life duties must be different from those of men—yet for them, too, as for men, there was one glorious goal; but for them—the women of Christ—the only road to the goal was the faithful, true carrying out of the quiet home duties he had just sketched out for them. In other words, women will win the great salvation; but if they would win it, they must fulfil their destiny; they must acquiesce in all the conditions of a woman’s life—in the forefront of which St. Paul places the all-important functions and duties of a mother.
Benson: The apostle having intimated that the man was superior by creation, and the subjection of the woman increased by the fall…
Matthew Henry: As woman was last in the creation, which is one reason for her subjection, so she was first in the transgression. But there is a word of comfort; that those who continue in sobriety, shall be saved in child-bearing, or with child-bearing, by the Messiah, who was born of a woman. And the especial sorrow to which the female sex is subject, should cause men to exercise their authority with much gentleness, tenderness, and affection.
Barnes: In regard to the nature of the consolation referred to here, there has been a considerable variety of opinion. Some have held, that by the expression "she shall be saved in child-bearing," the apostle designs to include all the duties of the maternal relation, meaning that she should be saved through the faithful performance of her duties as a mother.
More from Barnes: The general sentiments of the Jews in regard to the salvation of the female sex, and their exclusion from the religious privileges which men enjoy; the views of the Muslims in reference to the inferiority of the sex; and the prevalent feelings in the pagan world, degrading the sex and making their condition, in regard to salvation, far inferior to that of man, show the propriety of what the apostle here says, and the fitness that he should so guard himself that his language could not possibly be construed so as to give countenance to such a sentiment.
Jamieson – Fausset – Brown: sobriety—"sober-mindedness" (see on [2468]1Ti 2:9, as contrasted with the unseemly forwardness reproved in 1Ti 2:11). Mental receptivity and activity in family life were recognized in Christianity as the destiny of woman. One reason alleged here by Paul, is the greater danger of self-deception in the weaker sex, and the spread of errors arising from it, especially in a class of addresses in which sober reflectiveness is least in exercise [Neander]. The case (Ac 21:9) was doubtless in private, not in public.
Matthew Poole: Though the woman was so unhappy as to be deceived by the serpent, and to be the first in taking the forbidden fruit, and an instrument to entice her husband to do the like, which may give all of that sex a cause of humiliation, and show them the reasonableness of God’s order in putting them in subjection to man, and prohibiting them to break God’s order in usurping authority over the man; yet through the gracious interposition of the Mediator, (afterward born of a woman), she hath no reason to despair, either of a temporal salvation, from the peril and danger of child-birth, or, much less, of an eternal salvation, for… she shall be saved;
Meyer’s: after the apostle has forbidden to the woman any activity in church assemblies as unbecoming to her, he now points to the destiny assigned her by God, the fulfilment of which brings salvation to her.
Geneva Study Bible: He adds a comfort by the way, that their subjection does not hinder women from being saved as well as men, if they behave themselves in those duties of marriage in a holy and modest manner, with faith and charity.
Expositor’s Greek Testament: So St. Paul, taking the common-sense view that childbearing, rather than public teaching or the direction of affairs, is woman’s primary function duty, privilege and dignity, reminds Timothy and his readers that there was another aspect of the story in Genesis besides that of woman’s taking the initiative in transgression: the pains of childbirth were her sentence, yet in undergoing these she finds her salvation.
Cambridge Bible for Schools…: ‘through her childbearing’: ‘her child-bearing which is her curse may be her highest blessing, as with man’s doom, labour; her domestic life and duties, the sphere of woman’s mission, St Paul lays great stress on good works, the performance of the common duties of life, in opposition to the irregularities of the times; and yet adds the necessary previous condition “if they abide in faith”
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 15: Women, Childbirth, Salvation, and Leadership
Joao Pedro, thanks for taking time to read and respond...
God's word is perspicuous, yet He hides truth from the wise and reveals them to children (Matt 11:25-27). Yet, most of the Jewish leaders completely missed Jesus as Messiah even though they searched the Hebrew scriptures (John 5). Yet, Jesus speaks in parables that caused confusion and even His disciples did not understand (Matthew). Yet, He encourages us to be Bereans and test what we have been taught and examine and search His Word to see if it agrees (Acts 17). Yet, He warns us that traditions of man can nullify His word (Matt 15/ Mark 7)! Yet, Jerome's translation of the Greek metanoia into the Latin do penance influenced the church for over 1000 years and spawned indulgences. Yet, Jerome's Latin Vulgate left out the little phrase that Adam was with her (Eve) in Genesis 3:6 that perpetuated permission to put all the blame is on Eve for centuries. Yet, the Septuagint (including the Wisdom of Sirach) was considered canon for centuries (and still is canon in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions).
Time, traditions, and translations have all impacted the original writings and context. We are warned to test everything! (1 Thess 5)
There are a variety of reasons why 1 Tim 2:15 is not a "simple", "plain", and "straightforward" text. That this passage and this verse is considered to be one of the most difficult passages of Scripture is a pretty common view. Partly because the original context has rarely been considered for hundreds of years. If the original culture obscures what it says in our translation, then we need to take another look and see what we might have missed or lost in translation. I believe the original context clarifies and instead traditions of man have obscured the meaning.
The very rare Greek word authentein translated as "exercising authority" (the only time authentein is even used in the NT is in 1 Tim 2:12), has only become the primary translation in the last 120 years. Before 1900 AD most translations had a negative type of behavior for authentein. Getting the Whole Picture, Part 6: The Shift | CRC Network
The earliest translations (Early Latin versions; 150-400 AD) implied "domineering" or "lording it over", something Jesus specifically said none of His followers are to do. See comments in the following link for list of translations' rendering of "authentein": Getting the Whole Picture, Part 7: The Shift Continues | CRC Network
Eve was not exercising authority over Adam. Adam deliberately disobeyed. Eve didn't force him. He was there, he knew that tree was off limits, he heard the discussion, he assessed what happened (or didn't happen) to Eve and he chose to eat as well when she offered him the fruit. They both failed in seeking God before choosing to eat from that specific tree!
Being fruitful and multiplying is a collaborative, mutual mandate for husbands and wives... and the two shall become one! Husband and wife become one in marriage, but also through their children. Children and family are a blessing and mutual responsibility for both parents, it is not exclusive to one or the other (see Prov 31 for additional ways women are a blessing to husband, family and community)! and yes, the promise given to Eve that there would be Someone to crush the enemy is also the reason there is specific enmity by the enemy against women and mothers. Women have been viewed as inferior for most of history. That has only changed in some parts of the world in the last 100 years, because even now, sadly, much of the world still believes that.
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 15: Women, Childbirth, Salvation, and Leadership
Joao Pedro, if I'm wrong / being deceived, I want to know, so I appreciate your heart for God's truth.
I hope you would also be open to examining and testing the basic hermeneutical aspects that I share (original cultural context, original languages, scriptural context (see prior PARTS of series).
I will leave you with this... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 15: Women, Childbirth, Salvation, and Leadership
I think we can both agree that we both seek God's truth. My biblical theology / covenantal lens that impacts my worldview includes the mutual one another principle along with other aspects of God's word that searching and testing have brought to my attention. I think the cultural context expands our lens to get a more complete picture of what God is saying to us here, an important aspect that has been largely missed in discussions surrounding 1 Timothy 2:15, not denying these basic beliefs.
I think we both agree salvation is by grace through Jesus Christ (the Messianic promise given to Eve), for both men and women, not based on any work, including having children. (some English translations use "women" instead of the singular third person Greek for "she", and some versions add "the" to childbearing to imply the specific birth of Jesus as the Savior, both are subtle yet significant modifications of the Greek)
I think we both agree that being fruitful and multiplying is a joint mandate for husbands and wives.
I think we both agree that family is an important part of God's plan.
I think we can both agree that a plain reading of being kept safe in childbearing can include both physical and spiritual safety/ preservation through Jesus. There are multiple dimensions of "sozo" used in scripture. Paul is reassuring someone that is anxious about childbirth, there is no reason for fear in Christ, continue walking in faith. sóphrosuné is literally sanity which has been translated as propriety, modesty, moderation, sound minded, sobriety, and self control/ restraint! Strong's Greek: 4997. σωφροσύνη (sóphrosuné) -- Soundness of mind, self-control, temperance, moderation
Posted in: Hard Hearts and Open Hands
Thanks for sharing this, Carol. The very real stories are absolutely heartbreaking!
The welfare system itself is designed for people to fail. That is why people in poverty gamble, there's more hope with gambling than the government.
Sometimes people will criticize help given to a person and say it didn't make a difference for the person in moving forward with the help. Your post reminds me of how help can prevent people from going 3-10 steps backwards and instead go backwards only a step or two. Sometimes it's not about moving forward but about limiting how far backwards a person goes. We have to take the long-term view.
I walk alongside several women who need housing but don't have any credit or don't have good enough credit or have something on their record that disqualifies them. We have given them temporary shelter as we wait for long term housing. I have someone who made significant changes in her life including her faith, got a job at the church she was attending, and the church's insurance wouldn't allow her to work there bc of her record. Our society still has a "yellow ticket of leave" (a ticket to show one is a convict, a symbol of social rejection, Jean Valjean, Les Miserables)... I thought we were done with that! Unfortunately, it just looks different in today's world!
One woman in her 50's bought a car with $500 down payment and a loan for $10k from a sketchy dealership for 3-4x the blue book value. She had never bought a car before and had no idea what the "blue book" for cars was! She ended up abandoning the car after about 6 months, but it did help her get her license again after 15 years and her DUI requirements taken care of. It was a costly lesson for her and very frustrating for us! She didn't know better and made things much harder for herself! & in our state, there are no buyer remorse laws to return a car in 3 days! That's part of the systemic problem!
I could share so many stories of people in poverty that are struggling in so many ways! We, as the Family of God, have significantly abdicated our responsibility to the poor and needy!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 14: Adam, Eve, and the Double Standard of the Fall
Thanks for taking time to thoughtfully read and respond Rob.
Thankfully we have come along ways since Rabbi Sira’s misogynist views in 180BC, but most of the change regarding how women are viewed as equal in worth and value instead of inferior is mostly in the last 100 years or so. Sadly, for billions around the world, women are still considered inferior. Maybe not US, Canada, and other first world nations, but there are plenty of other places that this is still the majority view of women. We, as God’s family here on earth, have a lot of work to do to help bring equality and worth for all those made in God’s image, that others discover and know their true identity in Christ!
For Adam and Eve, what I see as far worse than Eve not conferring with Adam, they both did not confer with God. They were in close relationship with Him, walking and talking together in the garden. God’s heart is that we seek Him, spend time with Him and seek His heart together. This was not A&E’s response. We, His people, still seem slow to respond by seeking His heart together. Sadly, statistics indicate our collective prayer times are minimal. It is estimated, based on surveys, that only about 5% of congregations have a specific prayer time together in addition to the weekly worship gatherings.
I use confer instead of defer because the marriage relationship is a mutual one, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh, and the two shall become one. Jesus even quotes the two shall become one. Mutual sharing of responsibility!
There are some problems with using 1 Tim 2:12-14 to support the prohibition of women leading/authority over and teaching men based on “created order”.
One problem is it has only been since about 1900 that the rare Greek word authentein has become a neutral or positive authority as the primarily translation. Until about 150 AD, it was almost always used in a negative sense or situation, especially in the context of human relationships, and even then, most of the translations of 1 Timothy 2:12 until about 1900 had a negative connotation for authentein as well. A general authority is not the historical meaning. There was a very significant shift from negative meaning to positive meaning over the ages that needs to be taken into consideration.
Another problem is that the historical cultural context of the pantheon of pagan deities in Ephesus has rarely been considered over the ages. Somehow that context almost completely disappeared over time, until the last 50 years or so.
Based on the research I have done, I believe Paul’s point is there is a woman at the Ephesus church who is teaching a false order of creation that was circulating based on pagan influences, and he refers to the Genesis account to correct her version. One of the main purposes of this letter to Timothy is addressing false teaching infiltrating the ekklesia of Ephesus, including through new believers converting from pagan beliefs.
If our focus is loving and serving one another as the family of God, with Christ as our example, our relationships will not be based on any hierarchy of power dynamics or limitations of who can lead, preach, teach (and prophesy?) in church. The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network
1 Corinthians 14 is ironically probably the most inclusive chapter for all, y’all, everyone, each, anyone, the whole church (over 70 inclusive words in this chapter) participating in the gatherings of believers in various ways. Gathered: Whenever You Come Together | CRC Network
Male passivity is part of the problem, passivity by a majority of the congregation (priesthood of all believers) is part of the problem, along with abuses of power, deception (which God warns us about at least 30x in the NT), and that so many are compromised with a porn problem. These are all an entire discussion on their own.
All that to say, there are serious questions and concerns about the complementarian created order view, 1 Timothy 2 and universal limited roles of women. It's fine as a personal preference / choice, but using created order as the reason needs deeper examination using the mutual lens of Genesis 1 & 2 compared to a hierarchical lens.
Posted in: Gathered: Whenever You Come Together
AMAZING! SEVENTY SEVEN!
the following is most of 1 Corinthians 14 with a cumulative verse by verse tally for the inclusive words Paul uses for men and women to participate!
There are more, but hopefully, this helps give a much more expansive and powerful picture of how inclusive this chapter is!
I CORINTHIANS 14
INCLUSIVE &/or PLURAL LANGUAGE FOR PARTICIPATION IN GATHERINGS OF BELIEVERS
(emphasis and amplified added to 2011 NIV, including amplified with 1984 NIV and YALL translation 1 Corinthians 14 - YallVersion.com)
V1 (Y’all) Follow the way of love and (y’all) eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy (that y’all may prophesy). +3x
V2 For anyone (he) who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people (men) but to God. Indeed, no one understands them (him); they (he) utter mysteries by the Spirit. 2011 NIV (1984 NIV, ESV, KJVs, etc use 3-4 male terms) +5x=8x cumulative
V3 But the one/everyone (he) who prophesies speaks to people (men) for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. +2x =10x
V4 Anyone (He) who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves (himself), but the one (he) who prophesies edifies the church. +3x=13x
V5 I would like every one of you / all y’all to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you /y’all prophesy. The one (He) who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone (he) interprets, so that the church may be edified. +6x=19x
V6 Now, brothers and sisters (brothers), if I come to you /y’all and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you /y’all, unless I bring you /y’all some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? +4x=23x
V7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone (no word in Greek) know (it be known) what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? +1x=24x
V8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? +1x=25x
V9 So it is with you / y’all. Unless you /y’all speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you (no Greek word) are saying (is being said)? You / Y’all will just be speaking into the air. +5x=29x
V10
V11
V12 So it is with you / y’all. Since you / y’all are eager for gifts of the Spirit, y’all try to excel in those that build up the church. +3x=32x
V13 For this reason the one /anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that they (he) may interpret what they (he) say. +x1=33x
V14
V15
V16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else (he), who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they (he) do not know what you are saying?
V17
V18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you / all y’all. +2x=35x
V19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. +2x=37x
V20 Brothers and sisters (Brothers), (ya’ll) stop thinking like children. In regard to evil (ya’ll) be infants, but in your / y’all’s thinking be adults. +4x=41x
V21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners (men of strange tongues) I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” +3x=44x
V22
V23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you / y’all are out of your mind? +4=48x
V24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone /all is prophesying, **they are (he will be) convicted of sin / convinced (“of sin” is not in the Greek, 1984 NIV is “convinced by all that he is a sinner”) (“by all” in Greek but not 2011 NIV) and are brought under judgment / examined by all… (**very interesting comparing this verse to various translations) +3x=51x
V25 as the secrets of their (his) hearts are laid bare. So they (he) will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you / y’all!” (+1x=52x)
V26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters (brothers)? When you / y’all come together, each of you (everyone) has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything /all must be done so that the church (not in the Greek here) may be built up. +5x=57x
V27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. +2x=59x
V28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself (3rd person singular, not specifically male) and to God.
V29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. +1=60x
V30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. +1 =61x
V31 For you (y’all) can all prophesy in turn so that everyone (all) may be instructed and (all) encouraged. +4x=65x
V32
V33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people (saints). +3x=68x
V34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. +1=69x
V35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. +1=70x
V36 Or did the word of God originate with you / y’all? Or are you / y’all the only people (Not in Greek) it has reached? +2x=72x
V37 If anyone thinks they (he) are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them (him) acknowledge that what I am writing to you / ya’ll is the Lord’s command. +2x=74x
V38 But if anyone (he) ignores this, they will themselves (he himself) be ignored. +1x=75x
V39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters (brothers), (y’all) be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues +2x=77x
V40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
FYI, there are about 25 male references in the 1984 NIV, however the Greek is actually very inclusive.
Posted in: The Intercultural Journey: How the Lord Showed Up in a CRC Church
Every tribe, every tongue, every people, every nation. What a beautiful expression of God's Kingdom family!
Sometimes I will attend one of the Slavic congregations in our community and the smaller one will have a translator just for me, or the larger congregation gives out headsets with the translation. I think the smaller one now does headsets as well for the translation.
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 13: Created Order Concerns and Challenges
Willem, thanks for your interest and reading through this series. I'm glad to hear that you find it helpful!
For the short term, you are free to print them out and compile and share them.
Maybe when the series is complete, I can post a digital list on the network that has links to all the PARTS...
Long term, I have a friend who has a publishing company, so this could potentially end up in a book in some manner at some point.
Thanks for asking and the encouragement!
Posted in: The Contagious Excitement of Forrest Frank
HIGH PRAISE! It's a powerful biblical concept that the reformed tradition doesn't seem to be very comfortable with (yet?) for various reasons. Yet, it is the biblical HALLELUYAHs in Psalms 146-150, exuberant, intense, loud!
Let the HIGH PRAISES OF GOD be in our mouths... (Ps 149:6a Psalm 149:6 May the high praises of God be in their mouths, and a double-edged sword in their hands,); however for some reason the NIVs (& a few other versions) left the HIGH out of their translations of the rare Hebrew word rowmmowt Strong's Hebrew: 7319. רוֹמְמוֹת (romemah) -- Exaltation, elevation, lifting up. I have to wonder why!
What Exactly is High Praise? | CRC Network
Posted in: Love Divided
Thank you David! I LOVE the "one another" principle~ God does too, as He gives us 59 commands on how to relate with one another (14 of them are to love one another incl John 13:34-35, and several are how not to relate)!
I firmly believe when we, His family, follow these, many conflicts / divisions will disappear!
The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network
Posted in: Love Divided
Thanks for taking the time to read it David! It's not that there won't be differences and disagreements, so I also appreciate the Moravian motto: in the essentials, unity, in the non-essentials, freedom, and in all things love!