I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
I also posted most of this as a 2nd follow up comment to Rob's response last week... so most of it might be a repeat for some...
PS... Rob, on your TLG search for authentein... FYI: the following is copied from the last comment on Lost In Translation: A Look at 1 Timothy 2:12-15 | The Junia Project by Bob Edwards... this additional info of who said what when, might help you just in case you want to find the original sources!!! I am working on that myself, but struggling a bit bc it's all Greek to me ;)...
I have found Perseus to be a helpful source for original evidence a number of times in my research - it is so amazing to be able to go to the ancient source & read it in English!!! I am not sure, but I think this is one of the uses of "authente" by Josephus... feel free to test it!!! Again, I really appreciate that you are willing to search for the original sources!!!
for the following, very specifically note which are before Paul & which are after Paul!
START of Bob Edward's comment that he posted on his article "Lost in Translation" linked above:
Here is a glance at Wilshire’s research related to the meanings of the Greek word “authentein” as used in Greek literature between the years 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.. The New Testament era is the intentional center of this range:
-Polybius used the word authenten, 2nd century B.C., to mean the “doer of a massacre.”
-The word authentian is used in III Macabees, 1st century B.C., to mean “restrictions” or “rights.”
-Diodorus Siculus used three variations of the word (authentais, authenten, authentas), 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrators of sacrilege,” “author of crimes” and “supporters of violent actions.”
-Philo Judaeus used the word authentes, 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “being one’s own murderer.”
-Flavius Josephus used the words authenten and authentas, 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrator of a crime” and “perpetrators of a slaughter.”
-The apostle Paul used the word authentein once during the same time period as Diodorus, Philo and Josephus. [I believe, therefore, that it likely had a similar meaning, particularly given the Ephesian context we have just examined.]
-Appian of Alexander used the word authentai three times, and the word authenten twice, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderers,” slayer,” “slayers of themselves” and “perpetrators of evil.”
-Sim. of the Shepherd of Hermas used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “builder of a tower.”
-A homily by Pseudo-Clement used the word authentes once, ? A.D., to mean “sole power.”
-Irenaeus used the word authenias three times, 2nd century A.D., to mean “authority.”
-Harpocration used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderer.”
-Phrynichus used the word authentes once, 2nd century A.D., to mean “one who murders by his own hand.” (Wilshire, 2010, p. 28)
Whereas the word authentein was used on rare occasions (e.g. by Irenaeus) to denote authority, it was much more commonly used to indicate something violent, murderous or suicidal.
A significant shift in meaning is found by the 4th Century in Rome, largely in the work of St. Jerome and John Chrysostom. St. Augustine’s commentaries further emphasize this shift in meaning to one of “exercising authority.”
I thought this information might make a helpful supplement to the post :). Those interested in studying this subject in more depth might enjoy some of the books listed as references (see above).
END of Bob Edwards comment...
Since posting this last week, I have reached out to Bob & Helga Edwards to help find the original sources, because I am finding that it seems English translations vary a bit. I am 99% sure the Pseudo Clement use tx as "sole power" has to be post Paul since Clement himself wasn't around until the 2nd century...
Hetty, there are multiple dynamics that especially came together regarding various views of women, about 6 years ago in my journey. I weep and hurt with the women & the church who have had some of their gifts/insights/voices hindered & treated as unwelcome and unwanted. I weep & hurt with women who have experienced abuse, but instead of receiving support & justice from those in the church who had the power to do so, they were blamed, shamed & silenced. There are numerous reasons I am pursuing this at this time. The women and church in Iran is one of many, but it is a significant one for me, for several reasons!
I have experienced significant impact through how God uses the internet (including this CRCNA Network) for women's voices to be heard & be at the table. God can use this however He wants & I can testify of how He has encouraged others, especially women, through the information I share, of who we are in Christ. He knows each of our journeys, including how we got to our views on women in the Church & what His truth/heart is. He calls us to be Bereans, to search the scriptures & test everything. What this looks like, can be very different depending on each person's unique journey.
There are those who want to do what's right & are in the process of testing the traditional views of women, there are Christian women leading others in Iran, that can share God's view of women as equal co laborers/ministers/servants in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Our identity in Christ is another HUGE reason, I wrestle with the traditional view & search for God's heart, what does HE say! The most important part of our identity is that we are His children/people, part of His family!
Here's a list of who GOD says we are because of Who He is! (I'm thinking I might start a new post with this)...
Our Identity in Christ Jesus
YOU ARE PRECIOUS AND PRICELESS
He calls us HIS SAINTS, HIS HOLY PEOPLE (over 90 times in NT)...
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saintsRom 1:7;
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27;
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord I Cor 1:2;
To all the saints in Christ Jesus Phil 1:1;
He calls us sons and daughters, His children, over and over...
“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sonsanddaughters, Says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor 6:18
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called childrenofGod! I John 3:1
So in Christ Jesus you are all childrenofGod through faith Gal 3:26
He calls us righteous...
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers I Peter 3:12
He calls us dearly beloved Colossians 3:12
He calls us temples of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9, 2 Timothy 1:14
He calls us new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17
He calls us anointed
He calls us upright in heart
He calls us faithful and Godly
He calls us those who fear Him
He calls us friends (John 15:13-15), forgiven, redeemed, cherished, loved, upright, Beloved of God (Rom 1:7), Beloved Brethren (James 2:5), Children of God (John 1:12), Sons of the Living God (Rom 9:26), Sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35), Children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), Chosen (lots of verses), Co workers/fellow workers/co-laborers (1 Cor 3:9, etc) Dear Children (Eph 5:1), Elect of God (Col 3:12), The Faithful (Ps 12:1), The Godly (2 Pet 2:9), Heirs of God (Gal 4:7), Holy/Royal Priesthood (I Pet 2:5-9), The Just (Hab 2:4), Little Children (1 John 2:1), Living Stones (1 Pet 2:5), Special People (Titus 2:14), Slaves of Righteousness (Rom 6:18), Sheep of Christ (John 10:1-16), Servants of Christ (1 Cor 7:22), Salt of the Earth (Matt 5:13:16), His treasured people (Malachi 3:17), etc.!
and this list is not complete!
God, also through His Word, calls us blessed (lots of times - I have a list)
the Aaronic blessing... The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the Lord lift His countenance toward you and give you His peace... Numbers 6:24-26
Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification... For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.… I Cor 14:26,31 NKJV
please test & discern!
The following is in response to Rob's first hesitation with his research of "authentein" in the TLG... I really appreciate Rob's interest in trying to find the original sources! It's one of the things I've been trying to work on & get help with, with very little progress that included considerable frustration so far, partially due to my nonexistent Greek capabilities. (:/) \0/
authentein & the TLG... I would love to find the original context/narrative for each use of the "authente" root that we know of... especially between about 500 BCE until 400 CE, very intentionally noting where the shift in meaning became the more common usage... it seems, this word has quite a history & it is critical we research it more in depth... The Septuagint's usage carries a lot of weight for me, that I have not seen given to its use by others in my research & I am not convinced on why it hasn't been given more weight (the only indirect reason I have come across is because the Wisdom of Solomon is classical/attic Greek instead of koine Greek which adds to the confusion). The context of idolatry/witchcrafts/sacrifices are such a significant part of the Ephesus/Asia Minor culture that Paul & Timothy are addressing & Paul was quite likely familiar with this context & usage in the Septuagint. I will elaborate on why I believe Paul was familiar with the usage of "authente" words & used "authentein" in this context at the end of this post in a bit...
I found this interesting as I was following up today on the TLG website link that Rob shared in his response since part of this discussion is about witchcraft- TLG - Home (uci.edu) :
Word of the day:
θέλγητρον, ‑ου, τό
a charm or spell
First attested: 6 B.C.
158 time(s) in TLG corpus
I personally have not used TLG before... I would love to learn more about it... I am only aware of TLG via Wilshire's work on authentein using the TLG platform. Now, as I am reading the history of TLG, it makes me cry, it's so amazing!!! TLG - History (uci.edu) I love when technology is used well for the common good! It is an incredible resource to have access to all these ancient documents, that anyone who is interested can read, that someone like me who never studied Greek can access & read in English! I am thankful that others are willing to look into these documents & test them with me, information that was not accessible for most of us before the last 20 years or so... I know I am getting to the point where I need others to help further research & test the witchcraft aspect of Ephesus/Asia Minor & 1 Timothy, & I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us find God's truth... discerning God's heart for women is something that has caused much contention & divisiveness for far too long... We should not fear this path we are on, because whatever we find, we are searching with a love for His truth, knowing that God wants what is best for us, whatever that might be!
In the last 5 years or so, I personally have wrestled with a lot of the concerns and questions that Rob & others have brought up in various discussions/research over the years. The reasons why a more intensive, in-depth research started for me in 2018 is its own story... I am sharing some of what I have found in my journey ... I want to test everything, because there are dynamics that were not discussed when this went through Synod in 1995-1996, that I'm aware of &/or were dismissed for various reasons in the 1990s that the reasons are sketchy, so I took another look - I could be wrong & am open to any evidence that supports otherwise...
Here is an example of something that was discussed & dismissed by some scholars (not aware of this being discussed in the CRC, but I could be wrong): in the 90's, some scholars dismissed the witchcraft aspect in Ephesus as "bizarre" and "far-fetched"... what scholar or intellectual is going to risk their reputation on something that is viewed as irrational? One of my favorite TED talks is "dare to disagree"... Margaret Heffernan: Dare to disagree | TED Talk (you can read the transcript as an option if you prefer) ... A key to my journey of discovery was becoming aware of Artemis of the Ephesians' significant influence in that culture as a goddess (Acts 19 & her temple as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) ... The more I researched, the more a traditionally difficult passage made sense to me, & it didn't stop with Artemis or 1 Timothy 2:12!
I have done a fair amount of research on "authentein" over the last 5 years or so (along with digging into other Greek words) ... my research includes going through Al Wolters findings... 00-Text_JETS52-4 (etsjets.org) AUQENTHS AND ITS COGNATES IN BIBLICAL GREEK ... I will probably have to re-read it at some point, as it's been about 3 years since I read it...
All this to say, I don't think we can or should minimize or dismiss what Paul meant when he used "authentein" here! It is a key word used & in my experience that a lot has hinged on over the ages, in a verse that is often the default used at some point to support the complementarian view of women in the Church to say the "Bible is clear", when there are a whole lot of questions that this verse/passage raises!
At this point, what I have found, is that it is very possible that the Greek root "authente" has a very negative meaning that Paul had in mind when he uses this very rare Greek word "authentein", used only 1 time in the NT in 1 Timothy 2:12. It's possible it might be "kin- murderer" or a broader type of abuse of power that harms others, especially the vulnerable, that includes murder & sacrifice.
Here's some of my support for that:
1) Paul uses 3 hapax legomenon in 1 Tim 9 to describe 3 specific types of murderers. 2 of these are a specific type of "kin murderer". I would love to see research on each of these words, where they are used in other Greek literature... I have not been able to figure out how to do this yet... any help would be much appreciated!!! What are the chances that just a few paragraphs before Paul uses "authentein", he intentionally mentions murder 3x!
2) Paul was familiar with the Septuagint, he quotes it verbatim at places in his letters, he was more than likely familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Septuagint. He would have seen the similarity of the worship of gods/goddesses going on in his time, that the Septuagint refers to going on centuries before. The worship of gods/goddesses was so commonplace in that time, it would be like us talking about sports & different sports teams today. But somehow over the ages, that significant aspect of culture got lost/minimized/ignored. There is a history here, that needs to be looked at. I hope to share some of the history, when I respond to Rob's hesitation that women were not allowed in leadership for the last 2000 years until the early 70's... It's a fascinating journey, one that I had never heard/read about in any of my research/discussions on this for either complementarian or egalitarian. Not saying it wasn't mentioned somewhere, just not in what I was aware of before I did my own research into the original languages, history of the early church & church fathers.
3) Paul had spent time in Athens @ the Areopagus/Mars Hill per Acts 17. The Areopagus was a place where authentes/murderers were tried by the council of elders there. Paul would have been aware of that~! The worst murderers were tried there because there was a belief that people did not want to be tainted by being under the same roof as the authentes/murderers, so this was an open-air court room. At the foot of this hill, was a place called the temple of Erinyes/Eumenides, the Furies, generally considered to be comprised of 3 goddesses, that were believed to be a part of the authentes/murderers sentencing... Erinyes - Wikipedia (warning, includes some graphic info about what the gods/goddesses did) ...
Paul had also lived in Ephesus for about 3 years (Acts 19), so he was very familiar with the cultural context of Artemis & the 50 or so other gods/goddesses that were being worshipped there... Paul most likely encountered cultic worship in every area he visited. Again, it was as common as sports teams in many countries, each with their own unique aspects, but also a lot of overlap.
4) Paul mentions "doctrines of demons" in 1 Tim 4:1, he mentions satan several times as well in this letter to Timothy. Asia minor was home to a pantheon of mythical gods & goddesses, many/most? who practiced mystery/secret rituals that are often referred to as the "mystery religions". These secrets are referred to in the Revelation letter to Thyatira (160 miles from Ephesus).
There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing!
My apologies, my comments get so long ie TLDR... but we are discussing something that has become very complex over the ages, including the letter to Timothy that includes one of the most difficult passages, that has had a lot written about it, especially in the last 50 years or so. Even with minimal research on this, we can no longer say It's "clear" & a "plain reading of the text" for various reasons - that is why the CRC has allowed both views & with the information commonly available at the time, I can see why. I think the meaning of authentein was obvious when Paul wrote it for what he meant, because the practice of witchcraft in the name of the gods/goddesses was so common as part of that culture, but somehow, for a variety of reasons, since then, this aspect has been obfuscated & lost.
I encourage everyone to research this for themselves, however if anyone wants links about something that they wonder about, let me know & I will try to find them again...
My prayer is we can look into this & test this together as the priesthood of ALL believers, where EVERYONE has something to share to edify, encourage & build up the body of Christ so that ALL may learn!
Part of response to MW's 4.5 hr section on authentein... still have an hour to go...
The context of the BGU 1208 papyrus use of "authentein" being translated into English (a long discussion of this use starts about 4:43:50 & I can understand why MW's excited about this even if I don't agree with him) is an amazing answer to prayer of the following from an earlier response! This is what I'm looking for. I believe these will help unlock the meaning of what has been called a very strange, rare, coarse, vulgar word not used in polite company & whether it's positive or pejorative!
excerpt from 2nd comment on 12.26.23: There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing! EOQ
what especially caught my attention when I read the letter (THIS IS FASCINATING! FINAL-BGU-1208-Translation-and-Notes.pdf (biblethinker.org) ) are the indication by the translator that the letter probably includes some level of sarcasm & I wonder if "authentein" is a bit of coarse slang between guys where Tryphon writes that I showed him & put that con man in his place bc how dare someone try to cheat us. "Authentes" & cognates were considered vulgar words that were not used in polite company (I read that authentein words were not used in polite company somewhere in an article about the murder trials on Areopagus, but haven't been able to find that specific article again, but MW gives me the vulgar reference (see time stamp & link below), I have also read that someone also called authentein "odious" but don't have a specific source yet).
Moeris, also in the second century, advised his students to use another word, autodikein, as it was less coarse than authentein. The Byzantine Thomas Magister reiterates the warning against using this objectionable term. Ancient Heresies and a Strange Greek Verb - CBE International
I am not saying I'm in agreement with the use as a positive example. I think there is more to this story & the hint that there is sarcasm piques my curiosity about that possibility... Authentein was a coarse & vulgar word not used in polite company, yet Paul used it!
Lord, we have a love for You, Your people, Your truth, Your principles, Your ways, these are beautiful, precious & powerful... lead us, guide us in Your ways that are higher than the heavens above ours! For Your glory & our good!
The following response includes more discussion on 1 Timothy 2:11-12, addressing Rob's 3rd hesitation...
read as you have time & space to process... be a Berean, test everything!
before 2018, I was oblivious to much of this information for various reasons, partly because I never heard it in church or came across it in my CRC readings. If there is anything on this in the CRC context, I am interested in listening to or reading it!
Per Rob's response: Thirdly, Paul says women must "learn quietly" (v. 11). The biblical context for v. 12's authentein is v. 11's "learn quietly." So, authentein doesn't seem to be contrasted with witchcraft, but with learning in an outspoken way. EOQ
I wonder if the learn quietly (hésuchia) has to do with the teaching/didaskein based on 1 Tim 1:3&7? Paul commands Timothy to give this woman an opportunity to learn her new faith before she is permitted to teach, otherwise her teaching included false teaching/doctrines, possibly ones that came from myths/fables (god & goddess worship) & endless geneologies (1 Tim 1:3-4,6-7) that were part of her former cultic beliefs. It's possible that she had been (false?) teaching in a domineering & forceful way similar to how things were possibly taught in the cults (I haven't done a lot of research on the teaching in cults but have come across a bit that implied it was loud & domineering - interestingly, I have come across that one of the more common meanings of hecate is: makes her will dominate/ prevail).
I believe Paul had a certain woman in mind, along with a few other people based when he wrote "certain people" in 1 Tim 1:3 that also probably included the men named in 1 Tim 1:20. For whatever reason, the 1984 NIV says "certain men" in 1 Tim 1:3, where most translations use a gender inclusive term/phrase here, which seems to be more accurate based on the Greek.
Another reason why I believe this is a specific woman is one of the very interesting things in v11-12 is that Paul switched from using plural women in v 9-10 to singular woman in 11-12. Now, I've been told that I'm making way too much out of a difference of 1 letter. Maybe... but the difference might be between 1 person & half of the Kingdom Church. Why would Paul do this? If we believe it's through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we cannot ignore this switch.
It's possible that Paul is thinking of a very specific woman that might have been one of the many new converts from the Artemis, etal cults (Acts 19) who possibly served as a priestess on behalf of Artemis &/or other goddesses. So, her attempts at teaching (referred to in v12) could include beliefs & practices from her former life (support for this includes the doctrines of demons aka witchcraft in 1 Tim 4:1, along w millions of $ worth of magic/sorcery scrolls burned in Acts 19:19 that many of the new converts destroyed), teaching things when she doesn't know what she's talking about (1v7) as a new believer & she needs to learn more about her new faith with a calm and cooperative attitude before she can teach.
This whole section v8-15 is a point-by-point corrective of certain beliefs/practices that were associated with the gods/goddesses, especially, but not exclusively, Artemis. This passage is part of the chapter that has been titled instructions on worship, but it is not limited to worship. It's a collective list of various correctives of problems that Timothy is dealing with. This becomes more apparent when we understand how Artemis, etal were worshipped at the time, especially when we look at v15 & childbearing! Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 667 (tufts.edu) A verse that over the years, many theologians have struggled with how to interpret. None of the commentaries that I have read so far, say anything about the goddesses as guardians of childbirth. If I missed it, let me know! here's an extensive sampling! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (biblehub.com)
I love that v 11 includes the only command in this passage to "let a woman learn"! I am brought to tears just thinking about how revolutionary this was in that culture and time, how gracious it was to this woman who was possibly part of the problem of bad teaching in 1 Tim 1:3&7! Even now, this is an amazing command for ALL women, as I think about the women in Afghanistan who have been banned from university & any education beyond elementary, that is going on even today, when I read about patriarchal parents who do not encourage (& sometimes strongly discourage) their daughters from going to university. These limitations for women learning break my heart, especially when to "let a woman learn" is the command that is given to Timothy, as God's Holy Word.
Looking at the various translations of v11, some seem to emphasize that the command is about a woman's (all womens'?) quietness/silence & submission/subjection instead of learning. Why did some versions use "silence" instead of "quietness" & calm as the Greek word implies? It's best for everyone, women & men, to learn with a calmness & quietness, that's not just for women, it's part of the fruit of the Spirit.
Cognate: 2271hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ)
So what is the universal message of v11? that all should have opportunities to learn & grow in our faith, especially for those new in the faith, that we ALL should learn in quietness & cooperation with those who are more mature & experienced in the faith, being open to teachings, revelations, etc that others share with us. Does this mean we never question or use discernment when we are learning? Of course not, we are all called to test everything... that needs to be taught as well! The Bereans were a noble people who searched the scriptures after they heard Paul preach. May we do the same!
We can have an entire discussion on the use of "silence" by the KJVs & how that has limited women over the years & even still today is impacting the Kingdom Church, but I will skip that for now... it's part of a discussion on 1 Cor 14:33-35 & women being allowed to speak or not in church gatherings.
I will share my research on "hupotage" in the next comment!
my apologies if this seems to be a firehose of information... it's been a profound, but also painful, journey of discovery for me as I come across information that as far as I'm aware, has not been a significant part of the discussion if mentioned at all (ie the v15 childbearing & the goddesses as guardians watching over the women during childbirth so they would not die). How did we miss this for so long? or am I so far off base/deceived with what I'm finding?
What I have found makes sense to me, I cannot ignore it, and I really appreciate when people honestly & humbly test what I share - thank you Rob!
My research includes so many different sources, including the original languages of Scripture. This is not a low view of scripture, or caving to modern culture, or rebelling & usurping authority as has been suggested by some who do not believe women are allowed to teach/preach/be in authority over men in the Church but refuse to engage with what I share... this is going back to the ancient paths/sources/texts/culture (& yes we can discuss "created order" at some point as that seems to have become the definitive basis for exclusively male pastors/elders in more recent years using 1 Tim 2:11-15 & ch 3 to justify it)...
Posted in: Is It Just Me, or ...
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
http://lowpc.org/summit
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
What Child Is This / Child of the Poor | The Hound + The Fox - YouTube
(750) David Phelps and Maggie Beth Phelps - Agnus Dei [Live] - YouTube (FYI: this is a different version of Agnus Dei, not the MW Smith one)
... back to regularly scheduled discussions...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them aside and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
NOT SO WITH YOU... Matt 20:26
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
**** Köstenberger’s chapter builds on his previous work for the rendering of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 by exploring other uses of the conjunction οὐδέ (oude) and arguing that Paul must either be arguing for a positive or a negative function for both teaching (διδάσκω, didasko) and exercising authority (αὐθεντέω, authenteo). A Review | Women in the Church: An Interpretation and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 - CBMW
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
While the World Looks Elsewhere, Iran Hurries Executions | TIME
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I also posted most of this as a 2nd follow up comment to Rob's response last week... so most of it might be a repeat for some...
PS... Rob, on your TLG search for authentein... FYI: the following is copied from the last comment on Lost In Translation: A Look at 1 Timothy 2:12-15 | The Junia Project by Bob Edwards... this additional info of who said what when, might help you just in case you want to find the original sources!!! I am working on that myself, but struggling a bit bc it's all Greek to me ;)...
I have found Perseus to be a helpful source for original evidence a number of times in my research - it is so amazing to be able to go to the ancient source & read it in English!!! I am not sure, but I think this is one of the uses of "authente" by Josephus... feel free to test it!!! Again, I really appreciate that you are willing to search for the original sources!!!
Flavius Josephus, De bello Judaico libri vii, *flaui/ou *)iwsh/pou i(stori/a *)ioudai+kou= pole/mou pro\s *(rwmai/ous bibli/on a., section 34 (tufts.edu)
for the following, very specifically note which are before Paul & which are after Paul!
START of Bob Edward's comment that he posted on his article "Lost in Translation" linked above:
Here is a glance at Wilshire’s research related to the meanings of the Greek word “authentein” as used in Greek literature between the years 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.. The New Testament era is the intentional center of this range:
-Polybius used the word authenten, 2nd century B.C., to mean the “doer of a massacre.”
-The word authentian is used in III Macabees, 1st century B.C., to mean “restrictions” or “rights.”
-Diodorus Siculus used three variations of the word (authentais, authenten, authentas), 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrators of sacrilege,” “author of crimes” and “supporters of violent actions.”
-Philo Judaeus used the word authentes, 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “being one’s own murderer.”
-Flavius Josephus used the words authenten and authentas, 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrator of a crime” and “perpetrators of a slaughter.”
-The apostle Paul used the word authentein once during the same time period as Diodorus, Philo and Josephus. [I believe, therefore, that it likely had a similar meaning, particularly given the Ephesian context we have just examined.]
-Appian of Alexander used the word authentai three times, and the word authenten twice, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderers,” slayer,” “slayers of themselves” and “perpetrators of evil.”
-Sim. of the Shepherd of Hermas used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “builder of a tower.”
-A homily by Pseudo-Clement used the word authentes once, ? A.D., to mean “sole power.”
-Irenaeus used the word authenias three times, 2nd century A.D., to mean “authority.”
-Harpocration used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderer.”
-Phrynichus used the word authentes once, 2nd century A.D., to mean “one who murders by his own hand.” (Wilshire, 2010, p. 28)
Whereas the word authentein was used on rare occasions (e.g. by Irenaeus) to denote authority, it was much more commonly used to indicate something violent, murderous or suicidal.
A significant shift in meaning is found by the 4th Century in Rome, largely in the work of St. Jerome and John Chrysostom. St. Augustine’s commentaries further emphasize this shift in meaning to one of “exercising authority.”
I thought this information might make a helpful supplement to the post :). Those interested in studying this subject in more depth might enjoy some of the books listed as references (see above).
END of Bob Edwards comment...
Since posting this last week, I have reached out to Bob & Helga Edwards to help find the original sources, because I am finding that it seems English translations vary a bit. I am 99% sure the Pseudo Clement use tx as "sole power" has to be post Paul since Clement himself wasn't around until the 2nd century...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hetty, there are multiple dynamics that especially came together regarding various views of women, about 6 years ago in my journey. I weep and hurt with the women & the church who have had some of their gifts/insights/voices hindered & treated as unwelcome and unwanted. I weep & hurt with women who have experienced abuse, but instead of receiving support & justice from those in the church who had the power to do so, they were blamed, shamed & silenced. There are numerous reasons I am pursuing this at this time. The women and church in Iran is one of many, but it is a significant one for me, for several reasons!
I have experienced significant impact through how God uses the internet (including this CRCNA Network) for women's voices to be heard & be at the table. God can use this however He wants & I can testify of how He has encouraged others, especially women, through the information I share, of who we are in Christ. He knows each of our journeys, including how we got to our views on women in the Church & what His truth/heart is. He calls us to be Bereans, to search the scriptures & test everything. What this looks like, can be very different depending on each person's unique journey.
There are those who want to do what's right & are in the process of testing the traditional views of women, there are Christian women leading others in Iran, that can share God's view of women as equal co laborers/ministers/servants in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Our identity in Christ is another HUGE reason, I wrestle with the traditional view & search for God's heart, what does HE say! The most important part of our identity is that we are His children/people, part of His family!
Here's a list of who GOD says we are because of Who He is! (I'm thinking I might start a new post with this)...
Our Identity in Christ Jesus
YOU ARE PRECIOUS AND PRICELESS
He calls us HIS SAINTS, HIS HOLY PEOPLE (over 90 times in NT)...
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints Rom 1:7;
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27;
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord I Cor 1:2;
To all the saints in Christ Jesus Phil 1:1;
He calls us sons and daughters, His children, over and over...
“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor 6:18
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! I John 3:1
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith Gal 3:26
He calls us righteous...
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers I Peter 3:12
He calls us dearly beloved Colossians 3:12
He calls us temples of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9, 2 Timothy 1:14
He calls us new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17
He calls us anointed
He calls us upright in heart
He calls us faithful and Godly
He calls us those who fear Him
He calls us friends (John 15:13-15), forgiven, redeemed, cherished, loved, upright, Beloved of God (Rom 1:7), Beloved Brethren (James 2:5), Children of God (John 1:12), Sons of the Living God (Rom 9:26), Sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35), Children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), Chosen (lots of verses), Co workers/fellow workers/co-laborers (1 Cor 3:9, etc) Dear Children (Eph 5:1), Elect of God (Col 3:12), The Faithful (Ps 12:1), The Godly (2 Pet 2:9), Heirs of God (Gal 4:7), Holy/Royal Priesthood (I Pet 2:5-9), The Just (Hab 2:4), Little Children (1 John 2:1), Living Stones (1 Pet 2:5), Special People (Titus 2:14), Slaves of Righteousness (Rom 6:18), Sheep of Christ (John 10:1-16), Servants of Christ (1 Cor 7:22), Salt of the Earth (Matt 5:13:16), His treasured people (Malachi 3:17), etc.!
and this list is not complete!
God, also through His Word, calls us blessed (lots of times - I have a list)
the Aaronic blessing... The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the Lord lift His countenance toward you and give you His peace... Numbers 6:24-26
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification... For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.… I Cor 14:26,31 NKJV
please test & discern!
The following is in response to Rob's first hesitation with his research of "authentein" in the TLG... I really appreciate Rob's interest in trying to find the original sources! It's one of the things I've been trying to work on & get help with, with very little progress that included considerable frustration so far, partially due to my nonexistent Greek capabilities. (:/) \0/
authentein & the TLG... I would love to find the original context/narrative for each use of the "authente" root that we know of... especially between about 500 BCE until 400 CE, very intentionally noting where the shift in meaning became the more common usage... it seems, this word has quite a history & it is critical we research it more in depth... The Septuagint's usage carries a lot of weight for me, that I have not seen given to its use by others in my research & I am not convinced on why it hasn't been given more weight (the only indirect reason I have come across is because the Wisdom of Solomon is classical/attic Greek instead of koine Greek which adds to the confusion). The context of idolatry/witchcrafts/sacrifices are such a significant part of the Ephesus/Asia Minor culture that Paul & Timothy are addressing & Paul was quite likely familiar with this context & usage in the Septuagint. I will elaborate on why I believe Paul was familiar with the usage of "authente" words & used "authentein" in this context at the end of this post in a bit...
I found this interesting as I was following up today on the TLG website link that Rob shared in his response since part of this discussion is about witchcraft- TLG - Home (uci.edu) :
a charm or spell
I personally have not used TLG before... I would love to learn more about it... I am only aware of TLG via Wilshire's work on authentein using the TLG platform. Now, as I am reading the history of TLG, it makes me cry, it's so amazing!!! TLG - History (uci.edu) I love when technology is used well for the common good! It is an incredible resource to have access to all these ancient documents, that anyone who is interested can read, that someone like me who never studied Greek can access & read in English! I am thankful that others are willing to look into these documents & test them with me, information that was not accessible for most of us before the last 20 years or so... I know I am getting to the point where I need others to help further research & test the witchcraft aspect of Ephesus/Asia Minor & 1 Timothy, & I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us find God's truth... discerning God's heart for women is something that has caused much contention & divisiveness for far too long... We should not fear this path we are on, because whatever we find, we are searching with a love for His truth, knowing that God wants what is best for us, whatever that might be!
In the last 5 years or so, I personally have wrestled with a lot of the concerns and questions that Rob & others have brought up in various discussions/research over the years. The reasons why a more intensive, in-depth research started for me in 2018 is its own story... I am sharing some of what I have found in my journey ... I want to test everything, because there are dynamics that were not discussed when this went through Synod in 1995-1996, that I'm aware of &/or were dismissed for various reasons in the 1990s that the reasons are sketchy, so I took another look - I could be wrong & am open to any evidence that supports otherwise...
Here is an example of something that was discussed & dismissed by some scholars (not aware of this being discussed in the CRC, but I could be wrong): in the 90's, some scholars dismissed the witchcraft aspect in Ephesus as "bizarre" and "far-fetched"... what scholar or intellectual is going to risk their reputation on something that is viewed as irrational? One of my favorite TED talks is "dare to disagree"... Margaret Heffernan: Dare to disagree | TED Talk (you can read the transcript as an option if you prefer) ... A key to my journey of discovery was becoming aware of Artemis of the Ephesians' significant influence in that culture as a goddess (Acts 19 & her temple as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) ... The more I researched, the more a traditionally difficult passage made sense to me, & it didn't stop with Artemis or 1 Timothy 2:12!
I have done a fair amount of research on "authentein" over the last 5 years or so (along with digging into other Greek words) ... my research includes going through Al Wolters findings... 00-Text_JETS52-4 (etsjets.org) AUQENTHS AND ITS COGNATES IN BIBLICAL GREEK ... I will probably have to re-read it at some point, as it's been about 3 years since I read it...
All this to say, I don't think we can or should minimize or dismiss what Paul meant when he used "authentein" here! It is a key word used & in my experience that a lot has hinged on over the ages, in a verse that is often the default used at some point to support the complementarian view of women in the Church to say the "Bible is clear", when there are a whole lot of questions that this verse/passage raises!
At this point, what I have found, is that it is very possible that the Greek root "authente" has a very negative meaning that Paul had in mind when he uses this very rare Greek word "authentein", used only 1 time in the NT in 1 Timothy 2:12. It's possible it might be "kin- murderer" or a broader type of abuse of power that harms others, especially the vulnerable, that includes murder & sacrifice.
Here's some of my support for that:
1) Paul uses 3 hapax legomenon in 1 Tim 9 to describe 3 specific types of murderers. 2 of these are a specific type of "kin murderer". I would love to see research on each of these words, where they are used in other Greek literature... I have not been able to figure out how to do this yet... any help would be much appreciated!!! What are the chances that just a few paragraphs before Paul uses "authentein", he intentionally mentions murder 3x!
2) Paul was familiar with the Septuagint, he quotes it verbatim at places in his letters, he was more than likely familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Septuagint. He would have seen the similarity of the worship of gods/goddesses going on in his time, that the Septuagint refers to going on centuries before. The worship of gods/goddesses was so commonplace in that time, it would be like us talking about sports & different sports teams today. But somehow over the ages, that significant aspect of culture got lost/minimized/ignored. There is a history here, that needs to be looked at. I hope to share some of the history, when I respond to Rob's hesitation that women were not allowed in leadership for the last 2000 years until the early 70's... It's a fascinating journey, one that I had never heard/read about in any of my research/discussions on this for either complementarian or egalitarian. Not saying it wasn't mentioned somewhere, just not in what I was aware of before I did my own research into the original languages, history of the early church & church fathers.
3) Paul had spent time in Athens @ the Areopagus/Mars Hill per Acts 17. The Areopagus was a place where authentes/murderers were tried by the council of elders there. Paul would have been aware of that~! The worst murderers were tried there because there was a belief that people did not want to be tainted by being under the same roof as the authentes/murderers, so this was an open-air court room. At the foot of this hill, was a place called the temple of Erinyes/Eumenides, the Furies, generally considered to be comprised of 3 goddesses, that were believed to be a part of the authentes/murderers sentencing... Erinyes - Wikipedia (warning, includes some graphic info about what the gods/goddesses did) ...
Paul had also lived in Ephesus for about 3 years (Acts 19), so he was very familiar with the cultural context of Artemis & the 50 or so other gods/goddesses that were being worshipped there... Paul most likely encountered cultic worship in every area he visited. Again, it was as common as sports teams in many countries, each with their own unique aspects, but also a lot of overlap.
4) Paul mentions "doctrines of demons" in 1 Tim 4:1, he mentions satan several times as well in this letter to Timothy. Asia minor was home to a pantheon of mythical gods & goddesses, many/most? who practiced mystery/secret rituals that are often referred to as the "mystery religions". These secrets are referred to in the Revelation letter to Thyatira (160 miles from Ephesus).
There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing!
My apologies, my comments get so long ie TLDR... but we are discussing something that has become very complex over the ages, including the letter to Timothy that includes one of the most difficult passages, that has had a lot written about it, especially in the last 50 years or so. Even with minimal research on this, we can no longer say It's "clear" & a "plain reading of the text" for various reasons - that is why the CRC has allowed both views & with the information commonly available at the time, I can see why. I think the meaning of authentein was obvious when Paul wrote it for what he meant, because the practice of witchcraft in the name of the gods/goddesses was so common as part of that culture, but somehow, for a variety of reasons, since then, this aspect has been obfuscated & lost.
I encourage everyone to research this for themselves, however if anyone wants links about something that they wonder about, let me know & I will try to find them again...
My prayer is we can look into this & test this together as the priesthood of ALL believers, where EVERYONE has something to share to edify, encourage & build up the body of Christ so that ALL may learn!
For the Glory of God & our good...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Part of response to MW's 4.5 hr section on authentein... still have an hour to go...
The context of the BGU 1208 papyrus use of "authentein" being translated into English (a long discussion of this use starts about 4:43:50 & I can understand why MW's excited about this even if I don't agree with him) is an amazing answer to prayer of the following from an earlier response! This is what I'm looking for. I believe these will help unlock the meaning of what has been called a very strange, rare, coarse, vulgar word not used in polite company & whether it's positive or pejorative!
excerpt from 2nd comment on 12.26.23: There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing! EOQ
what especially caught my attention when I read the letter (THIS IS FASCINATING! FINAL-BGU-1208-Translation-and-Notes.pdf (biblethinker.org) ) are the indication by the translator that the letter probably includes some level of sarcasm & I wonder if "authentein" is a bit of coarse slang between guys where Tryphon writes that I showed him & put that con man in his place bc how dare someone try to cheat us. "Authentes" & cognates were considered vulgar words that were not used in polite company (I read that authentein words were not used in polite company somewhere in an article about the murder trials on Areopagus, but haven't been able to find that specific article again, but MW gives me the vulgar reference (see time stamp & link below), I have also read that someone also called authentein "odious" but don't have a specific source yet).
Moeris, also in the second century, advised his students to use another word, autodikein, as it was less coarse than authentein. The Byzantine Thomas Magister reiterates the warning against using this objectionable term. Ancient Heresies and a Strange Greek Verb - CBE International
See Clip that includes evidence of authentein being considered “vulgar” @ 5:52:52 ALL The Debates Over 1 Tim 2:11-15: Women in Ministry part 12 (it took me a year to make this) (youtube.com)
I am not saying I'm in agreement with the use as a positive example. I think there is more to this story & the hint that there is sarcasm piques my curiosity about that possibility... Authentein was a coarse & vulgar word not used in polite company, yet Paul used it!
There is something very unusual about this word & why Paul used this word instead of the much more common & acceptable exousia Strong's Greek: 1849. ἐξουσία (exousia) -- power to act, authority (biblehub.com) or kurieuo' Strong's Greek: 2961. κυριεύω (kurieuó) -- to be lord of, rule (biblehub.com)!
Lord, we have a love for You, Your people, Your truth, Your principles, Your ways, these are beautiful, precious & powerful... lead us, guide us in Your ways that are higher than the heavens above ours! For Your glory & our good!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
The following response includes more discussion on 1 Timothy 2:11-12, addressing Rob's 3rd hesitation...
read as you have time & space to process... be a Berean, test everything!
before 2018, I was oblivious to much of this information for various reasons, partly because I never heard it in church or came across it in my CRC readings. If there is anything on this in the CRC context, I am interested in listening to or reading it!
Per Rob's response: Thirdly, Paul says women must "learn quietly" (v. 11). The biblical context for v. 12's authentein is v. 11's "learn quietly." So, authentein doesn't seem to be contrasted with witchcraft, but with learning in an outspoken way. EOQ
I wonder if the learn quietly (hésuchia) has to do with the teaching/didaskein based on 1 Tim 1:3&7? Paul commands Timothy to give this woman an opportunity to learn her new faith before she is permitted to teach, otherwise her teaching included false teaching/doctrines, possibly ones that came from myths/fables (god & goddess worship) & endless geneologies (1 Tim 1:3-4,6-7) that were part of her former cultic beliefs. It's possible that she had been (false?) teaching in a domineering & forceful way similar to how things were possibly taught in the cults (I haven't done a lot of research on the teaching in cults but have come across a bit that implied it was loud & domineering - interestingly, I have come across that one of the more common meanings of hecate is: makes her will dominate/ prevail).
I believe Paul had a certain woman in mind, along with a few other people based when he wrote "certain people" in 1 Tim 1:3 that also probably included the men named in 1 Tim 1:20. For whatever reason, the 1984 NIV says "certain men" in 1 Tim 1:3, where most translations use a gender inclusive term/phrase here, which seems to be more accurate based on the Greek.
Another reason why I believe this is a specific woman is one of the very interesting things in v11-12 is that Paul switched from using plural women in v 9-10 to singular woman in 11-12. Now, I've been told that I'm making way too much out of a difference of 1 letter. Maybe... but the difference might be between 1 person & half of the Kingdom Church. Why would Paul do this? If we believe it's through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we cannot ignore this switch.
It's possible that Paul is thinking of a very specific woman that might have been one of the many new converts from the Artemis, etal cults (Acts 19) who possibly served as a priestess on behalf of Artemis &/or other goddesses. So, her attempts at teaching (referred to in v12) could include beliefs & practices from her former life (support for this includes the doctrines of demons aka witchcraft in 1 Tim 4:1, along w millions of $ worth of magic/sorcery scrolls burned in Acts 19:19 that many of the new converts destroyed), teaching things when she doesn't know what she's talking about (1v7) as a new believer & she needs to learn more about her new faith with a calm and cooperative attitude before she can teach.
This whole section v8-15 is a point-by-point corrective of certain beliefs/practices that were associated with the gods/goddesses, especially, but not exclusively, Artemis. This passage is part of the chapter that has been titled instructions on worship, but it is not limited to worship. It's a collective list of various correctives of problems that Timothy is dealing with. This becomes more apparent when we understand how Artemis, etal were worshipped at the time, especially when we look at v15 & childbearing! Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 667 (tufts.edu) A verse that over the years, many theologians have struggled with how to interpret. None of the commentaries that I have read so far, say anything about the goddesses as guardians of childbirth. If I missed it, let me know! here's an extensive sampling! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (biblehub.com)
I love that v 11 includes the only command in this passage to "let a woman learn"! I am brought to tears just thinking about how revolutionary this was in that culture and time, how gracious it was to this woman who was possibly part of the problem of bad teaching in 1 Tim 1:3&7! Even now, this is an amazing command for ALL women, as I think about the women in Afghanistan who have been banned from university & any education beyond elementary, that is going on even today, when I read about patriarchal parents who do not encourage (& sometimes strongly discourage) their daughters from going to university. These limitations for women learning break my heart, especially when to "let a woman learn" is the command that is given to Timothy, as God's Holy Word.
Looking at the various translations of v11, some seem to emphasize that the command is about a woman's (all womens'?) quietness/silence & submission/subjection instead of learning. Why did some versions use "silence" instead of "quietness" & calm as the Greek word implies? It's best for everyone, women & men, to learn with a calmness & quietness, that's not just for women, it's part of the fruit of the Spirit.
Strong's Greek: 2271. ἡσυχία (hésuchia) -- stillness (biblehub.com)
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ)
So what is the universal message of v11? that all should have opportunities to learn & grow in our faith, especially for those new in the faith, that we ALL should learn in quietness & cooperation with those who are more mature & experienced in the faith, being open to teachings, revelations, etc that others share with us. Does this mean we never question or use discernment when we are learning? Of course not, we are all called to test everything... that needs to be taught as well! The Bereans were a noble people who searched the scriptures after they heard Paul preach. May we do the same!
We can have an entire discussion on the use of "silence" by the KJVs & how that has limited women over the years & even still today is impacting the Kingdom Church, but I will skip that for now... it's part of a discussion on 1 Cor 14:33-35 & women being allowed to speak or not in church gatherings.
I will share my research on "hupotage" in the next comment!
my apologies if this seems to be a firehose of information... it's been a profound, but also painful, journey of discovery for me as I come across information that as far as I'm aware, has not been a significant part of the discussion if mentioned at all (ie the v15 childbearing & the goddesses as guardians watching over the women during childbirth so they would not die). How did we miss this for so long? or am I so far off base/deceived with what I'm finding?
What I have found makes sense to me, I cannot ignore it, and I really appreciate when people honestly & humbly test what I share - thank you Rob!
My research includes so many different sources, including the original languages of Scripture. This is not a low view of scripture, or caving to modern culture, or rebelling & usurping authority as has been suggested by some who do not believe women are allowed to teach/preach/be in authority over men in the Church but refuse to engage with what I share... this is going back to the ancient paths/sources/texts/culture (& yes we can discuss "created order" at some point as that seems to have become the definitive basis for exclusively male pastors/elders in more recent years using 1 Tim 2:11-15 & ch 3 to justify it)...
Jeremiah 6:16a This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look. Ask for the ancient paths: 'Where is the good way?'...