I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
God warns us in His Word, over & over, at least 30 times, to not be deceived. Something is significant when it is repeated so many times, especially by the Creator of the Universe!
I have a long list of laments over things I was taught somewhere along my journey of life that, in some cases, actually was the opposite of what I find when I have searched & examined the Scriptures more in depth, and in other cases, hyper focused on one doctrine at the expense of others. I often use the phrase, both/and. Often both views are right in ways, and both views are wrong in ways. Ie. complementarian & egalitarian.
I love the Greek word "peithesthe". This was a word that opened Greek debates in various forums (this word is an entire discussion on its own). It is a word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced. It is so important in this time of confusion and deepening division, that we, especially as the family of God, continue to be curious and conversational with others. When we love one another as He loves us, we treat each other with dignity and respect even when we deeply disagree. Jesus still washed Judas' feet, Jesus still served Passover, the Lord's supper, to Judas. Jesus still went to the synagogue, even though He compared it to a den of vipers. Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for them. Not saying, those we disagree with are Judas or enemies, but sharing how Jesus treated those whom He knew would harm Him.
God also warns us to test everything, to use discernment/wisdom.
It is a painful yet profound journey to admit where we have been deceived/wrong, yet God's truth is far more beautiful than whatever the deception was we were believing, and the process of discovery is often life changing and healing.
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Arianism
Description: Taught by Arius, a presbyter from Alexandria, Arianism claimed that the Son (Jesus Christ) was a created being, subordinate to the Father, and not co-eternal or consubstantial with Him. Arius argued that "there was a time when the Son was not," denying the full divinity of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed affirms that the Son is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father," emphasizing Christ's full divinity, co-eternity, and equality with the Father.
Sabellianism (Modalism)
Description: Also known as Modalistic Monarchianism, Sabellianism taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons but different modes or manifestations of a single divine being. This denied the distinct personhood within the Trinity.
Nicene Response: The Creed clearly delineates the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct entities while affirming their unity in one Godhead, countering the idea of God merely appearing in different forms.
Adoptionism (Dynamic Monarchianism)
Description: This heresy posited that Jesus was a human who was "adopted" by God at a point in time (e.g., at his baptism or resurrection), receiving divine power but not being divine by nature.
Nicene Response: The Creed declares that the Son is "true God from true God," eternally begotten and divine by nature, not a human elevated to divine status.
Gnosticism
Description: While not the primary focus, Gnostic influences lingered, teaching that the material world was evil and that Christ was a purely spiritual being who only appeared human (Docetism, a Gnostic variant). This denied the true incarnation of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed emphasizes that the Son "became incarnate" and "was made man," affirming the reality of Christ's human nature alongside his divine nature.
Subordinationism
Description: A broader tendency in some early Christian thought to view the Son and Holy Spirit as subordinate to the Father in essence or rank, even if not as extreme as Arianism.
Nicene Response: The Creed’s use of "consubstantial" (homoousios) ensures that the Son is of the same essence as the Father, rejecting any hierarchy of essence within the Trinity.
Context and Notes:
The Council of Nicaea was convened by Emperor Constantine to resolve disputes, particularly Arianism, which was causing significant division in the early Church.
The Creed was later expanded at the Council of Constantinople (381 AD) to further clarify the role of the Holy Spirit, addressing additional heresies like Macedonianism (which denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit).
The primary focus in 325 AD was Arianism, as it posed the most immediate threat to orthodox Christian doctrine regarding Christ’s nature.
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
3956pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
In the same way, fourthly, the context for authentein (v. 12) is obviously the preceding verse (v. 11) which says that women should learn "in all submissiveness" (hupotage). What is the opposite of authentein? Contextually the answer must be hupotage—submissiveness. This is the same positive word used in 1 Cor 9:13 "... they will glorify God because of your submission (hupotage) that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ..." So, Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage)." To me, this means: women should do the opposite of authentein. What is that? Hupotage.
Ok, (I wrote this last week before I posted the spoiler yesterday ;) let's take a look at the meaning of "hupotage" a form of hupotasso... it's kind of a game changer when we consider a little known understanding about hupotasso: there is a military context & a non-military context. For various reasons, it seems the military meaning has been the one that has been almost exclusively used over the ages (see 1-6 below) & the non-military almost completely lost over time (see bold below). I came across the non-military meaning a few years ago, then tried to find it again & it took me a bit, as the military meaning has overwhelmingly been the default.
The body of Christ, marriage & family relationships are not the military... so what might that mean if we recognize that there is a different meaning in non-military usage that is probably more appropriate in the Church? I get quite a range of interesting responses when I share this non-military context meaning with people, so I have no idea how anyone is going to respond to this! for some it's a huge relief, for others, it ticks them off... but I'm not making this meaning up, here is a Greek Lexicon that includes the non-military meaning...
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, COoperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (My emphASis added)
Non-military: CO prefix: together, mutually, in common; When you cooperate with another person, you work together with them to accomplish something.
Military context: SUB prefix: under, beneath... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person:
& FYI, here’s some of the definitions of responsibility! the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization; also, a moral obligation to do what’s right & being accountable. Interestingly, burden can refer to a problem, difficulty &/or responsibility that one carries.
For me, the non-military meaning makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands in the NT while the military meaning seems to be what Jesus is specifically saying not to do - "do not rule/lord it over like the Gentiles do"! Unfortunately, the military meaning has been used abusively & harmfully in far too many relationships. "Submit" has been used as a weapon to control those that are more vulnerable. (PS: this is some of the abuse / bad fruit that Kathy referred to)
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage).” Both Greek words here need a careful reexamination of their meaning, along with wrestling with why did Paul switch to a singular woman. Also, v12 is not a command.
It seems in v11 Paul is commanding Timothy to let a woman learn in an appropriate manner (calmly & cooperatively that is conducive for all people to learn) & in v12 he is saying in this situation with this specific woman he does not allow/permit/"epitrepo" (this Greek word seems to be always used in a case by case basis from what I have found in my research so far) this woman to teach (bc she's teaching something inappropriate/negative) &/or force her will/dominate, possibly harm (again some inappropriate/negative behavior) a man with her teaching/actions. This woman is doing something very inappropriate in the Body of Christ (but possibly ignorantly as in Ch 1 where Paul shares he was ignorant when he lists how he was the chief example of violent inappropriate sinful behavior), so Paul is telling Timothy do not permit her to continue in her harmful teaching/behavior until she learns differently & knows better.
My conclusion: The way in the Body of Christ is a loving, mutual, collaborative relational sharing of responsibilities based on a variety of dynamics. That is the non-military application of hupotasso/hupotage which I believe is more appropriate for the Body of Christ in our relationships with one another! If we are following the one anothers, then we will be praying together as well & when we pray together there is a unity that the Spirit brings...
Teach and counsel/exhort/admonish one another (Colossians 3:16a - no restrictions on gender!)
Mutual edification: encourage and build up one another (Romans 14:19b; 1 Thessalonians 5:11)
Posted in: In Search of Wisdom in the Midst of Doubt
God warns us in His Word, over & over, at least 30 times, to not be deceived. Something is significant when it is repeated so many times, especially by the Creator of the Universe!
I have a long list of laments over things I was taught somewhere along my journey of life that, in some cases, actually was the opposite of what I find when I have searched & examined the Scriptures more in depth, and in other cases, hyper focused on one doctrine at the expense of others. I often use the phrase, both/and. Often both views are right in ways, and both views are wrong in ways. Ie. complementarian & egalitarian.
I love the Greek word "peithesthe". This was a word that opened Greek debates in various forums (this word is an entire discussion on its own). It is a word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced. It is so important in this time of confusion and deepening division, that we, especially as the family of God, continue to be curious and conversational with others. When we love one another as He loves us, we treat each other with dignity and respect even when we deeply disagree. Jesus still washed Judas' feet, Jesus still served Passover, the Lord's supper, to Judas. Jesus still went to the synagogue, even though He compared it to a den of vipers. Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for them. Not saying, those we disagree with are Judas or enemies, but sharing how Jesus treated those whom He knew would harm Him.
God also warns us to test everything, to use discernment/wisdom.
It is a painful yet profound journey to admit where we have been deceived/wrong, yet God's truth is far more beautiful than whatever the deception was we were believing, and the process of discovery is often life changing and healing.
Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network
Being humble and open in our communication with love is a key!
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Context and Notes:
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
Posted in: Separation Agreement Templates: Documenting the Goodbye
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
https://julieroys.com/nda-free-christian-orgs/
https://www.ndafree.org/stories/
https://www.ndafree.org/resources/theological-reflections/
TEXAS in 2025:
https://julieroys.com/tx-law-prohibit-misuse-non-disclosure-agreements-approved-house-vote/
FEDERAL AND WA STATE in 2022:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-signs-law-curbing-nondisclosure-agreements-that-block-victims-of-sexual-harassment-from-speaking-out
https://nwsidebar.wsba.org/2022/06/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-washingtons-silenced-no-more-act/
Posted in: What Does the Bible Say about Hell?
Interesting question Matt... Curious what prompted this question?
a lot of our traditional beliefs/ideas about hell are based on Dante's inferno and it's 9 levels written in the 1300s...
https://historylists.org/art/9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.html
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hades-Greek-mythology
https://www.britannica.com/topic/afterlife-religion
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Posted in: Are We Out of Our Minds?
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
For His glory and our good...
Posted in: Is It Just Me, or ...
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
http://lowpc.org/summit
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS) (biblestudytools.com)
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Strong's Hebrew: 7440. רִנָּה (rinnah) -- a ringing cry (biblehub.com)
What Exactly is High Praise? | CRC Network (crcna.org)
Please join me in prayer for God's best for ALL! men, women, young, old, rich, poor, every tribe, tongue, people & nation! FOr our good & His glory!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 Astounded and amazed, they asked, "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? (biblehub.com) (Berean Standard Bible; click link for parallel translations)
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
here's the Greek... Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of...
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- this (biblehub.com)
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel. "He who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence," says the LORD of Hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith. (biblehub.com) Berean Standard Bible
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
*** Strong's Hebrew: 898. בָּגַד (bagad) -- to act or deal treacherously (biblehub.com)
***this word includes so much more than just being adulterous/unfaithful...
acted deceitfully (1), acted treacherously (2), betrayed (1), betrays (1), deal (1), deal treacherously (10), deal very treacherously (1), deals treacherously (1), dealt treacherously (8), dealt very treacherously (1), faithless (2), treacherous (15), treacherous one still deals treacherously (1), treacherous deal (1), treacherously (1), unfairness (1).
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Grounds for Divorce: Why I Now Believe There Are More Than Two - Wayne Grudem
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Finally… Here we go on hupotasso…
excerpt from Rob's response:
In the same way, fourthly, the context for authentein (v. 12) is obviously the preceding verse (v. 11) which says that women should learn "in all submissiveness" (hupotage). What is the opposite of authentein? Contextually the answer must be hupotage—submissiveness. This is the same positive word used in 1 Cor 9:13 "... they will glorify God because of your submission (hupotage) that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ..." So, Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage)." To me, this means: women should do the opposite of authentein. What is that? Hupotage.
again note that Paul uses singular woman in v11&12 compared to the plural women in v9-10... there is something unique going on here that is specific to one woman that is being a bit of a problem in the ekklesia of Ephesus as part of the Way. 1 Timothy 2:11 A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. (biblehub.com)
Ok, (I wrote this last week before I posted the spoiler yesterday ;) let's take a look at the meaning of "hupotage" a form of hupotasso... it's kind of a game changer when we consider a little known understanding about hupotasso: there is a military context & a non-military context. For various reasons, it seems the military meaning has been the one that has been almost exclusively used over the ages (see 1-6 below) & the non-military almost completely lost over time (see bold below). I came across the non-military meaning a few years ago, then tried to find it again & it took me a bit, as the military meaning has overwhelmingly been the default.
The body of Christ, marriage & family relationships are not the military... so what might that mean if we recognize that there is a different meaning in non-military usage that is probably more appropriate in the Church? I get quite a range of interesting responses when I share this non-military context meaning with people, so I have no idea how anyone is going to respond to this! for some it's a huge relief, for others, it ticks them off... but I'm not making this meaning up, here is a Greek Lexicon that includes the non-military meaning...
Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (KJV) (biblestudytools.com)
Hupotasso
hoop-ot-as'-so
Verb
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, COoperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (My emphASis added)
Non-military: CO prefix: together, mutually, in common; When you cooperate with another person, you work together with them to accomplish something.
Military context: SUB prefix: under, beneath... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person:
& FYI, here’s some of the definitions of responsibility! the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization; also, a moral obligation to do what’s right & being accountable. Interestingly, burden can refer to a problem, difficulty &/or responsibility that one carries.
For me, the non-military meaning makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands in the NT while the military meaning seems to be what Jesus is specifically saying not to do - "do not rule/lord it over like the Gentiles do"! Unfortunately, the military meaning has been used abusively & harmfully in far too many relationships. "Submit" has been used as a weapon to control those that are more vulnerable. (PS: this is some of the abuse / bad fruit that Kathy referred to)
So Biblical language like one another Strong's Greek: 240. ἀλλήλων (allélón) -- of one another (biblehub.com), brothers & sisters in the Lord (adelphos is gender inclusive, siblings from the same womb; Strong's Greek: 80. ἀδελφός (adelphos) -- a brother (biblehub.com)), royal priesthood (of ALL believers), holy people/saints Strong's Greek: 40. ἅγιος (hagios) -- sacred, holy (biblehub.com), co-laborers/fellow workers type of language Strong's Greek: 4904. συνεργός (sunergos) -- a fellow worker (biblehub.com) indicates this collaborative use.
Interesting, that last Greek word reminded me of synergy: the combined power of a group of things when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately.
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage).” Both Greek words here need a careful reexamination of their meaning, along with wrestling with why did Paul switch to a singular woman. Also, v12 is not a command.
It seems in v11 Paul is commanding Timothy to let a woman learn in an appropriate manner (calmly & cooperatively that is conducive for all people to learn) & in v12 he is saying in this situation with this specific woman he does not allow/permit/"epitrepo" (this Greek word seems to be always used in a case by case basis from what I have found in my research so far) this woman to teach (bc she's teaching something inappropriate/negative) &/or force her will/dominate, possibly harm (again some inappropriate/negative behavior) a man with her teaching/actions. This woman is doing something very inappropriate in the Body of Christ (but possibly ignorantly as in Ch 1 where Paul shares he was ignorant when he lists how he was the chief example of violent inappropriate sinful behavior), so Paul is telling Timothy do not permit her to continue in her harmful teaching/behavior until she learns differently & knows better.
My conclusion: The way in the Body of Christ is a loving, mutual, collaborative relational sharing of responsibilities based on a variety of dynamics. That is the non-military application of hupotasso/hupotage which I believe is more appropriate for the Body of Christ in our relationships with one another! If we are following the one anothers, then we will be praying together as well & when we pray together there is a unity that the Spirit brings...
Teach and counsel/exhort/admonish one another (Colossians 3:16a - no restrictions on gender!)
Mutual edification: encourage and build up one another (Romans 14:19b; 1 Thessalonians 5:11)