I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Arianism
Description: Taught by Arius, a presbyter from Alexandria, Arianism claimed that the Son (Jesus Christ) was a created being, subordinate to the Father, and not co-eternal or consubstantial with Him. Arius argued that "there was a time when the Son was not," denying the full divinity of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed affirms that the Son is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father," emphasizing Christ's full divinity, co-eternity, and equality with the Father.
Sabellianism (Modalism)
Description: Also known as Modalistic Monarchianism, Sabellianism taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons but different modes or manifestations of a single divine being. This denied the distinct personhood within the Trinity.
Nicene Response: The Creed clearly delineates the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct entities while affirming their unity in one Godhead, countering the idea of God merely appearing in different forms.
Adoptionism (Dynamic Monarchianism)
Description: This heresy posited that Jesus was a human who was "adopted" by God at a point in time (e.g., at his baptism or resurrection), receiving divine power but not being divine by nature.
Nicene Response: The Creed declares that the Son is "true God from true God," eternally begotten and divine by nature, not a human elevated to divine status.
Gnosticism
Description: While not the primary focus, Gnostic influences lingered, teaching that the material world was evil and that Christ was a purely spiritual being who only appeared human (Docetism, a Gnostic variant). This denied the true incarnation of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed emphasizes that the Son "became incarnate" and "was made man," affirming the reality of Christ's human nature alongside his divine nature.
Subordinationism
Description: A broader tendency in some early Christian thought to view the Son and Holy Spirit as subordinate to the Father in essence or rank, even if not as extreme as Arianism.
Nicene Response: The Creed’s use of "consubstantial" (homoousios) ensures that the Son is of the same essence as the Father, rejecting any hierarchy of essence within the Trinity.
Context and Notes:
The Council of Nicaea was convened by Emperor Constantine to resolve disputes, particularly Arianism, which was causing significant division in the early Church.
The Creed was later expanded at the Council of Constantinople (381 AD) to further clarify the role of the Holy Spirit, addressing additional heresies like Macedonianism (which denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit).
The primary focus in 325 AD was Arianism, as it posed the most immediate threat to orthodox Christian doctrine regarding Christ’s nature.
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Context and Notes:
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
Posted in: Separation Agreement Templates: Documenting the Goodbye
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
https://julieroys.com/nda-free-christian-orgs/
https://www.ndafree.org/stories/
https://www.ndafree.org/resources/theological-reflections/
TEXAS in 2025:
https://julieroys.com/tx-law-prohibit-misuse-non-disclosure-agreements-approved-house-vote/
FEDERAL AND WA STATE in 2022:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-signs-law-curbing-nondisclosure-agreements-that-block-victims-of-sexual-harassment-from-speaking-out
https://nwsidebar.wsba.org/2022/06/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-washingtons-silenced-no-more-act/
Posted in: What Does the Bible Say about Hell?
Interesting question Matt... Curious what prompted this question?
a lot of our traditional beliefs/ideas about hell are based on Dante's inferno and it's 9 levels written in the 1300s...
https://historylists.org/art/9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.html
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hades-Greek-mythology
https://www.britannica.com/topic/afterlife-religion
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Posted in: Are We Out of Our Minds?
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
For His glory and our good...
Posted in: Is It Just Me, or ...
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
http://lowpc.org/summit
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
What Child Is This / Child of the Poor | The Hound + The Fox - YouTube
(750) David Phelps and Maggie Beth Phelps - Agnus Dei [Live] - YouTube (FYI: this is a different version of Agnus Dei, not the MW Smith one)
... back to regularly scheduled discussions...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them aside and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
NOT SO WITH YOU... Matt 20:26
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
**** Köstenberger’s chapter builds on his previous work for the rendering of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 by exploring other uses of the conjunction οὐδέ (oude) and arguing that Paul must either be arguing for a positive or a negative function for both teaching (διδάσκω, didasko) and exercising authority (αὐθεντέω, authenteo). A Review | Women in the Church: An Interpretation and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 - CBMW
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
While the World Looks Elsewhere, Iran Hurries Executions | TIME
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...