I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Arianism
Description: Taught by Arius, a presbyter from Alexandria, Arianism claimed that the Son (Jesus Christ) was a created being, subordinate to the Father, and not co-eternal or consubstantial with Him. Arius argued that "there was a time when the Son was not," denying the full divinity of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed affirms that the Son is "begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father," emphasizing Christ's full divinity, co-eternity, and equality with the Father.
Sabellianism (Modalism)
Description: Also known as Modalistic Monarchianism, Sabellianism taught that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not distinct persons but different modes or manifestations of a single divine being. This denied the distinct personhood within the Trinity.
Nicene Response: The Creed clearly delineates the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct entities while affirming their unity in one Godhead, countering the idea of God merely appearing in different forms.
Adoptionism (Dynamic Monarchianism)
Description: This heresy posited that Jesus was a human who was "adopted" by God at a point in time (e.g., at his baptism or resurrection), receiving divine power but not being divine by nature.
Nicene Response: The Creed declares that the Son is "true God from true God," eternally begotten and divine by nature, not a human elevated to divine status.
Gnosticism
Description: While not the primary focus, Gnostic influences lingered, teaching that the material world was evil and that Christ was a purely spiritual being who only appeared human (Docetism, a Gnostic variant). This denied the true incarnation of Christ.
Nicene Response: The Creed emphasizes that the Son "became incarnate" and "was made man," affirming the reality of Christ's human nature alongside his divine nature.
Subordinationism
Description: A broader tendency in some early Christian thought to view the Son and Holy Spirit as subordinate to the Father in essence or rank, even if not as extreme as Arianism.
Nicene Response: The Creed’s use of "consubstantial" (homoousios) ensures that the Son is of the same essence as the Father, rejecting any hierarchy of essence within the Trinity.
Context and Notes:
The Council of Nicaea was convened by Emperor Constantine to resolve disputes, particularly Arianism, which was causing significant division in the early Church.
The Creed was later expanded at the Council of Constantinople (381 AD) to further clarify the role of the Holy Spirit, addressing additional heresies like Macedonianism (which denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit).
The primary focus in 325 AD was Arianism, as it posed the most immediate threat to orthodox Christian doctrine regarding Christ’s nature.
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
I also posted most of this as a 2nd follow up comment to Rob's response last week... so most of it might be a repeat for some...
PS... Rob, on your TLG search for authentein... FYI: the following is copied from the last comment on Lost In Translation: A Look at 1 Timothy 2:12-15 | The Junia Project by Bob Edwards... this additional info of who said what when, might help you just in case you want to find the original sources!!! I am working on that myself, but struggling a bit bc it's all Greek to me ;)...
I have found Perseus to be a helpful source for original evidence a number of times in my research - it is so amazing to be able to go to the ancient source & read it in English!!! I am not sure, but I think this is one of the uses of "authente" by Josephus... feel free to test it!!! Again, I really appreciate that you are willing to search for the original sources!!!
for the following, very specifically note which are before Paul & which are after Paul!
START of Bob Edward's comment that he posted on his article "Lost in Translation" linked above:
Here is a glance at Wilshire’s research related to the meanings of the Greek word “authentein” as used in Greek literature between the years 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.. The New Testament era is the intentional center of this range:
-Polybius used the word authenten, 2nd century B.C., to mean the “doer of a massacre.”
-The word authentian is used in III Macabees, 1st century B.C., to mean “restrictions” or “rights.”
-Diodorus Siculus used three variations of the word (authentais, authenten, authentas), 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrators of sacrilege,” “author of crimes” and “supporters of violent actions.”
-Philo Judaeus used the word authentes, 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “being one’s own murderer.”
-Flavius Josephus used the words authenten and authentas, 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrator of a crime” and “perpetrators of a slaughter.”
-The apostle Paul used the word authentein once during the same time period as Diodorus, Philo and Josephus. [I believe, therefore, that it likely had a similar meaning, particularly given the Ephesian context we have just examined.]
-Appian of Alexander used the word authentai three times, and the word authenten twice, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderers,” slayer,” “slayers of themselves” and “perpetrators of evil.”
-Sim. of the Shepherd of Hermas used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “builder of a tower.”
-A homily by Pseudo-Clement used the word authentes once, ? A.D., to mean “sole power.”
-Irenaeus used the word authenias three times, 2nd century A.D., to mean “authority.”
-Harpocration used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderer.”
-Phrynichus used the word authentes once, 2nd century A.D., to mean “one who murders by his own hand.” (Wilshire, 2010, p. 28)
Whereas the word authentein was used on rare occasions (e.g. by Irenaeus) to denote authority, it was much more commonly used to indicate something violent, murderous or suicidal.
A significant shift in meaning is found by the 4th Century in Rome, largely in the work of St. Jerome and John Chrysostom. St. Augustine’s commentaries further emphasize this shift in meaning to one of “exercising authority.”
I thought this information might make a helpful supplement to the post :). Those interested in studying this subject in more depth might enjoy some of the books listed as references (see above).
END of Bob Edwards comment...
Since posting this last week, I have reached out to Bob & Helga Edwards to help find the original sources, because I am finding that it seems English translations vary a bit. I am 99% sure the Pseudo Clement use tx as "sole power" has to be post Paul since Clement himself wasn't around until the 2nd century...
Hetty, there are multiple dynamics that especially came together regarding various views of women, about 6 years ago in my journey. I weep and hurt with the women & the church who have had some of their gifts/insights/voices hindered & treated as unwelcome and unwanted. I weep & hurt with women who have experienced abuse, but instead of receiving support & justice from those in the church who had the power to do so, they were blamed, shamed & silenced. There are numerous reasons I am pursuing this at this time. The women and church in Iran is one of many, but it is a significant one for me, for several reasons!
I have experienced significant impact through how God uses the internet (including this CRCNA Network) for women's voices to be heard & be at the table. God can use this however He wants & I can testify of how He has encouraged others, especially women, through the information I share, of who we are in Christ. He knows each of our journeys, including how we got to our views on women in the Church & what His truth/heart is. He calls us to be Bereans, to search the scriptures & test everything. What this looks like, can be very different depending on each person's unique journey.
There are those who want to do what's right & are in the process of testing the traditional views of women, there are Christian women leading others in Iran, that can share God's view of women as equal co laborers/ministers/servants in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Our identity in Christ is another HUGE reason, I wrestle with the traditional view & search for God's heart, what does HE say! The most important part of our identity is that we are His children/people, part of His family!
Here's a list of who GOD says we are because of Who He is! (I'm thinking I might start a new post with this)...
Our Identity in Christ Jesus
YOU ARE PRECIOUS AND PRICELESS
He calls us HIS SAINTS, HIS HOLY PEOPLE (over 90 times in NT)...
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saintsRom 1:7;
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27;
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord I Cor 1:2;
To all the saints in Christ Jesus Phil 1:1;
He calls us sons and daughters, His children, over and over...
“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sonsanddaughters, Says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor 6:18
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called childrenofGod! I John 3:1
So in Christ Jesus you are all childrenofGod through faith Gal 3:26
He calls us righteous...
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers I Peter 3:12
He calls us dearly beloved Colossians 3:12
He calls us temples of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9, 2 Timothy 1:14
He calls us new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17
He calls us anointed
He calls us upright in heart
He calls us faithful and Godly
He calls us those who fear Him
He calls us friends (John 15:13-15), forgiven, redeemed, cherished, loved, upright, Beloved of God (Rom 1:7), Beloved Brethren (James 2:5), Children of God (John 1:12), Sons of the Living God (Rom 9:26), Sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35), Children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), Chosen (lots of verses), Co workers/fellow workers/co-laborers (1 Cor 3:9, etc) Dear Children (Eph 5:1), Elect of God (Col 3:12), The Faithful (Ps 12:1), The Godly (2 Pet 2:9), Heirs of God (Gal 4:7), Holy/Royal Priesthood (I Pet 2:5-9), The Just (Hab 2:4), Little Children (1 John 2:1), Living Stones (1 Pet 2:5), Special People (Titus 2:14), Slaves of Righteousness (Rom 6:18), Sheep of Christ (John 10:1-16), Servants of Christ (1 Cor 7:22), Salt of the Earth (Matt 5:13:16), His treasured people (Malachi 3:17), etc.!
and this list is not complete!
God, also through His Word, calls us blessed (lots of times - I have a list)
the Aaronic blessing... The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the Lord lift His countenance toward you and give you His peace... Numbers 6:24-26
Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification... For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.… I Cor 14:26,31 NKJV
please test & discern!
The following is in response to Rob's first hesitation with his research of "authentein" in the TLG... I really appreciate Rob's interest in trying to find the original sources! It's one of the things I've been trying to work on & get help with, with very little progress that included considerable frustration so far, partially due to my nonexistent Greek capabilities. (:/) \0/
authentein & the TLG... I would love to find the original context/narrative for each use of the "authente" root that we know of... especially between about 500 BCE until 400 CE, very intentionally noting where the shift in meaning became the more common usage... it seems, this word has quite a history & it is critical we research it more in depth... The Septuagint's usage carries a lot of weight for me, that I have not seen given to its use by others in my research & I am not convinced on why it hasn't been given more weight (the only indirect reason I have come across is because the Wisdom of Solomon is classical/attic Greek instead of koine Greek which adds to the confusion). The context of idolatry/witchcrafts/sacrifices are such a significant part of the Ephesus/Asia Minor culture that Paul & Timothy are addressing & Paul was quite likely familiar with this context & usage in the Septuagint. I will elaborate on why I believe Paul was familiar with the usage of "authente" words & used "authentein" in this context at the end of this post in a bit...
I found this interesting as I was following up today on the TLG website link that Rob shared in his response since part of this discussion is about witchcraft- TLG - Home (uci.edu) :
Word of the day:
θέλγητρον, ‑ου, τό
a charm or spell
First attested: 6 B.C.
158 time(s) in TLG corpus
I personally have not used TLG before... I would love to learn more about it... I am only aware of TLG via Wilshire's work on authentein using the TLG platform. Now, as I am reading the history of TLG, it makes me cry, it's so amazing!!! TLG - History (uci.edu) I love when technology is used well for the common good! It is an incredible resource to have access to all these ancient documents, that anyone who is interested can read, that someone like me who never studied Greek can access & read in English! I am thankful that others are willing to look into these documents & test them with me, information that was not accessible for most of us before the last 20 years or so... I know I am getting to the point where I need others to help further research & test the witchcraft aspect of Ephesus/Asia Minor & 1 Timothy, & I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us find God's truth... discerning God's heart for women is something that has caused much contention & divisiveness for far too long... We should not fear this path we are on, because whatever we find, we are searching with a love for His truth, knowing that God wants what is best for us, whatever that might be!
In the last 5 years or so, I personally have wrestled with a lot of the concerns and questions that Rob & others have brought up in various discussions/research over the years. The reasons why a more intensive, in-depth research started for me in 2018 is its own story... I am sharing some of what I have found in my journey ... I want to test everything, because there are dynamics that were not discussed when this went through Synod in 1995-1996, that I'm aware of &/or were dismissed for various reasons in the 1990s that the reasons are sketchy, so I took another look - I could be wrong & am open to any evidence that supports otherwise...
Here is an example of something that was discussed & dismissed by some scholars (not aware of this being discussed in the CRC, but I could be wrong): in the 90's, some scholars dismissed the witchcraft aspect in Ephesus as "bizarre" and "far-fetched"... what scholar or intellectual is going to risk their reputation on something that is viewed as irrational? One of my favorite TED talks is "dare to disagree"... Margaret Heffernan: Dare to disagree | TED Talk (you can read the transcript as an option if you prefer) ... A key to my journey of discovery was becoming aware of Artemis of the Ephesians' significant influence in that culture as a goddess (Acts 19 & her temple as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) ... The more I researched, the more a traditionally difficult passage made sense to me, & it didn't stop with Artemis or 1 Timothy 2:12!
I have done a fair amount of research on "authentein" over the last 5 years or so (along with digging into other Greek words) ... my research includes going through Al Wolters findings... 00-Text_JETS52-4 (etsjets.org) AUQENTHS AND ITS COGNATES IN BIBLICAL GREEK ... I will probably have to re-read it at some point, as it's been about 3 years since I read it...
All this to say, I don't think we can or should minimize or dismiss what Paul meant when he used "authentein" here! It is a key word used & in my experience that a lot has hinged on over the ages, in a verse that is often the default used at some point to support the complementarian view of women in the Church to say the "Bible is clear", when there are a whole lot of questions that this verse/passage raises!
At this point, what I have found, is that it is very possible that the Greek root "authente" has a very negative meaning that Paul had in mind when he uses this very rare Greek word "authentein", used only 1 time in the NT in 1 Timothy 2:12. It's possible it might be "kin- murderer" or a broader type of abuse of power that harms others, especially the vulnerable, that includes murder & sacrifice.
Here's some of my support for that:
1) Paul uses 3 hapax legomenon in 1 Tim 9 to describe 3 specific types of murderers. 2 of these are a specific type of "kin murderer". I would love to see research on each of these words, where they are used in other Greek literature... I have not been able to figure out how to do this yet... any help would be much appreciated!!! What are the chances that just a few paragraphs before Paul uses "authentein", he intentionally mentions murder 3x!
2) Paul was familiar with the Septuagint, he quotes it verbatim at places in his letters, he was more than likely familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Septuagint. He would have seen the similarity of the worship of gods/goddesses going on in his time, that the Septuagint refers to going on centuries before. The worship of gods/goddesses was so commonplace in that time, it would be like us talking about sports & different sports teams today. But somehow over the ages, that significant aspect of culture got lost/minimized/ignored. There is a history here, that needs to be looked at. I hope to share some of the history, when I respond to Rob's hesitation that women were not allowed in leadership for the last 2000 years until the early 70's... It's a fascinating journey, one that I had never heard/read about in any of my research/discussions on this for either complementarian or egalitarian. Not saying it wasn't mentioned somewhere, just not in what I was aware of before I did my own research into the original languages, history of the early church & church fathers.
3) Paul had spent time in Athens @ the Areopagus/Mars Hill per Acts 17. The Areopagus was a place where authentes/murderers were tried by the council of elders there. Paul would have been aware of that~! The worst murderers were tried there because there was a belief that people did not want to be tainted by being under the same roof as the authentes/murderers, so this was an open-air court room. At the foot of this hill, was a place called the temple of Erinyes/Eumenides, the Furies, generally considered to be comprised of 3 goddesses, that were believed to be a part of the authentes/murderers sentencing... Erinyes - Wikipedia (warning, includes some graphic info about what the gods/goddesses did) ...
Paul had also lived in Ephesus for about 3 years (Acts 19), so he was very familiar with the cultural context of Artemis & the 50 or so other gods/goddesses that were being worshipped there... Paul most likely encountered cultic worship in every area he visited. Again, it was as common as sports teams in many countries, each with their own unique aspects, but also a lot of overlap.
4) Paul mentions "doctrines of demons" in 1 Tim 4:1, he mentions satan several times as well in this letter to Timothy. Asia minor was home to a pantheon of mythical gods & goddesses, many/most? who practiced mystery/secret rituals that are often referred to as the "mystery religions". These secrets are referred to in the Revelation letter to Thyatira (160 miles from Ephesus).
There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing!
My apologies, my comments get so long ie TLDR... but we are discussing something that has become very complex over the ages, including the letter to Timothy that includes one of the most difficult passages, that has had a lot written about it, especially in the last 50 years or so. Even with minimal research on this, we can no longer say It's "clear" & a "plain reading of the text" for various reasons - that is why the CRC has allowed both views & with the information commonly available at the time, I can see why. I think the meaning of authentein was obvious when Paul wrote it for what he meant, because the practice of witchcraft in the name of the gods/goddesses was so common as part of that culture, but somehow, for a variety of reasons, since then, this aspect has been obfuscated & lost.
I encourage everyone to research this for themselves, however if anyone wants links about something that they wonder about, let me know & I will try to find them again...
My prayer is we can look into this & test this together as the priesthood of ALL believers, where EVERYONE has something to share to edify, encourage & build up the body of Christ so that ALL may learn!
Part of response to MW's 4.5 hr section on authentein... still have an hour to go...
The context of the BGU 1208 papyrus use of "authentein" being translated into English (a long discussion of this use starts about 4:43:50 & I can understand why MW's excited about this even if I don't agree with him) is an amazing answer to prayer of the following from an earlier response! This is what I'm looking for. I believe these will help unlock the meaning of what has been called a very strange, rare, coarse, vulgar word not used in polite company & whether it's positive or pejorative!
excerpt from 2nd comment on 12.26.23: There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing! EOQ
what especially caught my attention when I read the letter (THIS IS FASCINATING! FINAL-BGU-1208-Translation-and-Notes.pdf (biblethinker.org) ) are the indication by the translator that the letter probably includes some level of sarcasm & I wonder if "authentein" is a bit of coarse slang between guys where Tryphon writes that I showed him & put that con man in his place bc how dare someone try to cheat us. "Authentes" & cognates were considered vulgar words that were not used in polite company (I read that authentein words were not used in polite company somewhere in an article about the murder trials on Areopagus, but haven't been able to find that specific article again, but MW gives me the vulgar reference (see time stamp & link below), I have also read that someone also called authentein "odious" but don't have a specific source yet).
Moeris, also in the second century, advised his students to use another word, autodikein, as it was less coarse than authentein. The Byzantine Thomas Magister reiterates the warning against using this objectionable term. Ancient Heresies and a Strange Greek Verb - CBE International
I am not saying I'm in agreement with the use as a positive example. I think there is more to this story & the hint that there is sarcasm piques my curiosity about that possibility... Authentein was a coarse & vulgar word not used in polite company, yet Paul used it!
Lord, we have a love for You, Your people, Your truth, Your principles, Your ways, these are beautiful, precious & powerful... lead us, guide us in Your ways that are higher than the heavens above ours! For Your glory & our good!
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
In case anyone wants a short context for the purpose of the Nicene Creed: here is a list of the heresies it was addressing... I have done my own research on this, but Grok summarizes this way better, faster & shorter than I can...
I find it fascinating and heartbreaking we are dealing with some of the same beliefs today... Ie eternal subordination of the Son (ESS) to limit women's serving in the church in certain ways (this is an entire discussion on its own even today still!).
The following is the Grok/AI compilation that I have researched in the past, but would take me awhile to compile:
The Nicene Creed, established at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, was primarily formulated to address theological disputes, particularly those concerning the nature of Christ and the Trinity. Below is a list of the major heresies it aimed to counter, based on the theological context of the time:
Context and Notes:
This list is based on historical accounts of the theological debates surrounding the Council of Nicaea, as found in early Church writings and scholarly analyses of the period. If you’d like a deeper dive into any specific heresy or the Creed’s phrasing, let me know!
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
Posted in: Separation Agreement Templates: Documenting the Goodbye
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
https://julieroys.com/nda-free-christian-orgs/
https://www.ndafree.org/stories/
https://www.ndafree.org/resources/theological-reflections/
TEXAS in 2025:
https://julieroys.com/tx-law-prohibit-misuse-non-disclosure-agreements-approved-house-vote/
FEDERAL AND WA STATE in 2022:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-signs-law-curbing-nondisclosure-agreements-that-block-victims-of-sexual-harassment-from-speaking-out
https://nwsidebar.wsba.org/2022/06/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-washingtons-silenced-no-more-act/
Posted in: What Does the Bible Say about Hell?
Interesting question Matt... Curious what prompted this question?
a lot of our traditional beliefs/ideas about hell are based on Dante's inferno and it's 9 levels written in the 1300s...
https://historylists.org/art/9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.html
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hades-Greek-mythology
https://www.britannica.com/topic/afterlife-religion
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Posted in: Are We Out of Our Minds?
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
For His glory and our good...
Posted in: Is It Just Me, or ...
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
http://lowpc.org/summit
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
**** Köstenberger’s chapter builds on his previous work for the rendering of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 by exploring other uses of the conjunction οὐδέ (oude) and arguing that Paul must either be arguing for a positive or a negative function for both teaching (διδάσκω, didasko) and exercising authority (αὐθεντέω, authenteo). A Review | Women in the Church: An Interpretation and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 - CBMW
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
While the World Looks Elsewhere, Iran Hurries Executions | TIME
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I also posted most of this as a 2nd follow up comment to Rob's response last week... so most of it might be a repeat for some...
PS... Rob, on your TLG search for authentein... FYI: the following is copied from the last comment on Lost In Translation: A Look at 1 Timothy 2:12-15 | The Junia Project by Bob Edwards... this additional info of who said what when, might help you just in case you want to find the original sources!!! I am working on that myself, but struggling a bit bc it's all Greek to me ;)...
I have found Perseus to be a helpful source for original evidence a number of times in my research - it is so amazing to be able to go to the ancient source & read it in English!!! I am not sure, but I think this is one of the uses of "authente" by Josephus... feel free to test it!!! Again, I really appreciate that you are willing to search for the original sources!!!
Flavius Josephus, De bello Judaico libri vii, *flaui/ou *)iwsh/pou i(stori/a *)ioudai+kou= pole/mou pro\s *(rwmai/ous bibli/on a., section 34 (tufts.edu)
for the following, very specifically note which are before Paul & which are after Paul!
START of Bob Edward's comment that he posted on his article "Lost in Translation" linked above:
Here is a glance at Wilshire’s research related to the meanings of the Greek word “authentein” as used in Greek literature between the years 200 B.C. and 200 A.D.. The New Testament era is the intentional center of this range:
-Polybius used the word authenten, 2nd century B.C., to mean the “doer of a massacre.”
-The word authentian is used in III Macabees, 1st century B.C., to mean “restrictions” or “rights.”
-Diodorus Siculus used three variations of the word (authentais, authenten, authentas), 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrators of sacrilege,” “author of crimes” and “supporters of violent actions.”
-Philo Judaeus used the word authentes, 1st century B.C. – 1st century A.D., to mean “being one’s own murderer.”
-Flavius Josephus used the words authenten and authentas, 1st century A.D., to mean “perpetrator of a crime” and “perpetrators of a slaughter.”
-The apostle Paul used the word authentein once during the same time period as Diodorus, Philo and Josephus. [I believe, therefore, that it likely had a similar meaning, particularly given the Ephesian context we have just examined.]
-Appian of Alexander used the word authentai three times, and the word authenten twice, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderers,” slayer,” “slayers of themselves” and “perpetrators of evil.”
-Sim. of the Shepherd of Hermas used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “builder of a tower.”
-A homily by Pseudo-Clement used the word authentes once, ? A.D., to mean “sole power.”
-Irenaeus used the word authenias three times, 2nd century A.D., to mean “authority.”
-Harpocration used the word authentes, 2nd century A.D., to mean “murderer.”
-Phrynichus used the word authentes once, 2nd century A.D., to mean “one who murders by his own hand.” (Wilshire, 2010, p. 28)
Whereas the word authentein was used on rare occasions (e.g. by Irenaeus) to denote authority, it was much more commonly used to indicate something violent, murderous or suicidal.
A significant shift in meaning is found by the 4th Century in Rome, largely in the work of St. Jerome and John Chrysostom. St. Augustine’s commentaries further emphasize this shift in meaning to one of “exercising authority.”
I thought this information might make a helpful supplement to the post :). Those interested in studying this subject in more depth might enjoy some of the books listed as references (see above).
END of Bob Edwards comment...
Since posting this last week, I have reached out to Bob & Helga Edwards to help find the original sources, because I am finding that it seems English translations vary a bit. I am 99% sure the Pseudo Clement use tx as "sole power" has to be post Paul since Clement himself wasn't around until the 2nd century...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hetty, there are multiple dynamics that especially came together regarding various views of women, about 6 years ago in my journey. I weep and hurt with the women & the church who have had some of their gifts/insights/voices hindered & treated as unwelcome and unwanted. I weep & hurt with women who have experienced abuse, but instead of receiving support & justice from those in the church who had the power to do so, they were blamed, shamed & silenced. There are numerous reasons I am pursuing this at this time. The women and church in Iran is one of many, but it is a significant one for me, for several reasons!
I have experienced significant impact through how God uses the internet (including this CRCNA Network) for women's voices to be heard & be at the table. God can use this however He wants & I can testify of how He has encouraged others, especially women, through the information I share, of who we are in Christ. He knows each of our journeys, including how we got to our views on women in the Church & what His truth/heart is. He calls us to be Bereans, to search the scriptures & test everything. What this looks like, can be very different depending on each person's unique journey.
There are those who want to do what's right & are in the process of testing the traditional views of women, there are Christian women leading others in Iran, that can share God's view of women as equal co laborers/ministers/servants in Christ as brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Our identity in Christ is another HUGE reason, I wrestle with the traditional view & search for God's heart, what does HE say! The most important part of our identity is that we are His children/people, part of His family!
Here's a list of who GOD says we are because of Who He is! (I'm thinking I might start a new post with this)...
Our Identity in Christ Jesus
YOU ARE PRECIOUS AND PRICELESS
He calls us HIS SAINTS, HIS HOLY PEOPLE (over 90 times in NT)...
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints Rom 1:7;
because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Rom 8:27;
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord I Cor 1:2;
To all the saints in Christ Jesus Phil 1:1;
He calls us sons and daughters, His children, over and over...
“I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Cor 6:18
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! I John 3:1
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith Gal 3:26
He calls us righteous...
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers I Peter 3:12
He calls us dearly beloved Colossians 3:12
He calls us temples of the Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9, 2 Timothy 1:14
He calls us new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17
He calls us anointed
He calls us upright in heart
He calls us faithful and Godly
He calls us those who fear Him
He calls us friends (John 15:13-15), forgiven, redeemed, cherished, loved, upright, Beloved of God (Rom 1:7), Beloved Brethren (James 2:5), Children of God (John 1:12), Sons of the Living God (Rom 9:26), Sons of the Most High (Luke 6:35), Children of the Promise (Rom 9:8), Chosen (lots of verses), Co workers/fellow workers/co-laborers (1 Cor 3:9, etc) Dear Children (Eph 5:1), Elect of God (Col 3:12), The Faithful (Ps 12:1), The Godly (2 Pet 2:9), Heirs of God (Gal 4:7), Holy/Royal Priesthood (I Pet 2:5-9), The Just (Hab 2:4), Little Children (1 John 2:1), Living Stones (1 Pet 2:5), Special People (Titus 2:14), Slaves of Righteousness (Rom 6:18), Sheep of Christ (John 10:1-16), Servants of Christ (1 Cor 7:22), Salt of the Earth (Matt 5:13:16), His treasured people (Malachi 3:17), etc.!
and this list is not complete!
God, also through His Word, calls us blessed (lots of times - I have a list)
the Aaronic blessing... The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you, the Lord lift His countenance toward you and give you His peace... Numbers 6:24-26
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification... For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.… I Cor 14:26,31 NKJV
please test & discern!
The following is in response to Rob's first hesitation with his research of "authentein" in the TLG... I really appreciate Rob's interest in trying to find the original sources! It's one of the things I've been trying to work on & get help with, with very little progress that included considerable frustration so far, partially due to my nonexistent Greek capabilities. (:/) \0/
authentein & the TLG... I would love to find the original context/narrative for each use of the "authente" root that we know of... especially between about 500 BCE until 400 CE, very intentionally noting where the shift in meaning became the more common usage... it seems, this word has quite a history & it is critical we research it more in depth... The Septuagint's usage carries a lot of weight for me, that I have not seen given to its use by others in my research & I am not convinced on why it hasn't been given more weight (the only indirect reason I have come across is because the Wisdom of Solomon is classical/attic Greek instead of koine Greek which adds to the confusion). The context of idolatry/witchcrafts/sacrifices are such a significant part of the Ephesus/Asia Minor culture that Paul & Timothy are addressing & Paul was quite likely familiar with this context & usage in the Septuagint. I will elaborate on why I believe Paul was familiar with the usage of "authente" words & used "authentein" in this context at the end of this post in a bit...
I found this interesting as I was following up today on the TLG website link that Rob shared in his response since part of this discussion is about witchcraft- TLG - Home (uci.edu) :
a charm or spell
I personally have not used TLG before... I would love to learn more about it... I am only aware of TLG via Wilshire's work on authentein using the TLG platform. Now, as I am reading the history of TLG, it makes me cry, it's so amazing!!! TLG - History (uci.edu) I love when technology is used well for the common good! It is an incredible resource to have access to all these ancient documents, that anyone who is interested can read, that someone like me who never studied Greek can access & read in English! I am thankful that others are willing to look into these documents & test them with me, information that was not accessible for most of us before the last 20 years or so... I know I am getting to the point where I need others to help further research & test the witchcraft aspect of Ephesus/Asia Minor & 1 Timothy, & I believe that the Holy Spirit helps us find God's truth... discerning God's heart for women is something that has caused much contention & divisiveness for far too long... We should not fear this path we are on, because whatever we find, we are searching with a love for His truth, knowing that God wants what is best for us, whatever that might be!
In the last 5 years or so, I personally have wrestled with a lot of the concerns and questions that Rob & others have brought up in various discussions/research over the years. The reasons why a more intensive, in-depth research started for me in 2018 is its own story... I am sharing some of what I have found in my journey ... I want to test everything, because there are dynamics that were not discussed when this went through Synod in 1995-1996, that I'm aware of &/or were dismissed for various reasons in the 1990s that the reasons are sketchy, so I took another look - I could be wrong & am open to any evidence that supports otherwise...
Here is an example of something that was discussed & dismissed by some scholars (not aware of this being discussed in the CRC, but I could be wrong): in the 90's, some scholars dismissed the witchcraft aspect in Ephesus as "bizarre" and "far-fetched"... what scholar or intellectual is going to risk their reputation on something that is viewed as irrational? One of my favorite TED talks is "dare to disagree"... Margaret Heffernan: Dare to disagree | TED Talk (you can read the transcript as an option if you prefer) ... A key to my journey of discovery was becoming aware of Artemis of the Ephesians' significant influence in that culture as a goddess (Acts 19 & her temple as one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world) ... The more I researched, the more a traditionally difficult passage made sense to me, & it didn't stop with Artemis or 1 Timothy 2:12!
I have done a fair amount of research on "authentein" over the last 5 years or so (along with digging into other Greek words) ... my research includes going through Al Wolters findings... 00-Text_JETS52-4 (etsjets.org) AUQENTHS AND ITS COGNATES IN BIBLICAL GREEK ... I will probably have to re-read it at some point, as it's been about 3 years since I read it...
All this to say, I don't think we can or should minimize or dismiss what Paul meant when he used "authentein" here! It is a key word used & in my experience that a lot has hinged on over the ages, in a verse that is often the default used at some point to support the complementarian view of women in the Church to say the "Bible is clear", when there are a whole lot of questions that this verse/passage raises!
At this point, what I have found, is that it is very possible that the Greek root "authente" has a very negative meaning that Paul had in mind when he uses this very rare Greek word "authentein", used only 1 time in the NT in 1 Timothy 2:12. It's possible it might be "kin- murderer" or a broader type of abuse of power that harms others, especially the vulnerable, that includes murder & sacrifice.
Here's some of my support for that:
1) Paul uses 3 hapax legomenon in 1 Tim 9 to describe 3 specific types of murderers. 2 of these are a specific type of "kin murderer". I would love to see research on each of these words, where they are used in other Greek literature... I have not been able to figure out how to do this yet... any help would be much appreciated!!! What are the chances that just a few paragraphs before Paul uses "authentein", he intentionally mentions murder 3x!
2) Paul was familiar with the Septuagint, he quotes it verbatim at places in his letters, he was more than likely familiar with the Wisdom of Solomon as part of the Septuagint. He would have seen the similarity of the worship of gods/goddesses going on in his time, that the Septuagint refers to going on centuries before. The worship of gods/goddesses was so commonplace in that time, it would be like us talking about sports & different sports teams today. But somehow over the ages, that significant aspect of culture got lost/minimized/ignored. There is a history here, that needs to be looked at. I hope to share some of the history, when I respond to Rob's hesitation that women were not allowed in leadership for the last 2000 years until the early 70's... It's a fascinating journey, one that I had never heard/read about in any of my research/discussions on this for either complementarian or egalitarian. Not saying it wasn't mentioned somewhere, just not in what I was aware of before I did my own research into the original languages, history of the early church & church fathers.
3) Paul had spent time in Athens @ the Areopagus/Mars Hill per Acts 17. The Areopagus was a place where authentes/murderers were tried by the council of elders there. Paul would have been aware of that~! The worst murderers were tried there because there was a belief that people did not want to be tainted by being under the same roof as the authentes/murderers, so this was an open-air court room. At the foot of this hill, was a place called the temple of Erinyes/Eumenides, the Furies, generally considered to be comprised of 3 goddesses, that were believed to be a part of the authentes/murderers sentencing... Erinyes - Wikipedia (warning, includes some graphic info about what the gods/goddesses did) ...
Paul had also lived in Ephesus for about 3 years (Acts 19), so he was very familiar with the cultural context of Artemis & the 50 or so other gods/goddesses that were being worshipped there... Paul most likely encountered cultic worship in every area he visited. Again, it was as common as sports teams in many countries, each with their own unique aspects, but also a lot of overlap.
4) Paul mentions "doctrines of demons" in 1 Tim 4:1, he mentions satan several times as well in this letter to Timothy. Asia minor was home to a pantheon of mythical gods & goddesses, many/most? who practiced mystery/secret rituals that are often referred to as the "mystery religions". These secrets are referred to in the Revelation letter to Thyatira (160 miles from Ephesus).
There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing!
My apologies, my comments get so long ie TLDR... but we are discussing something that has become very complex over the ages, including the letter to Timothy that includes one of the most difficult passages, that has had a lot written about it, especially in the last 50 years or so. Even with minimal research on this, we can no longer say It's "clear" & a "plain reading of the text" for various reasons - that is why the CRC has allowed both views & with the information commonly available at the time, I can see why. I think the meaning of authentein was obvious when Paul wrote it for what he meant, because the practice of witchcraft in the name of the gods/goddesses was so common as part of that culture, but somehow, for a variety of reasons, since then, this aspect has been obfuscated & lost.
I encourage everyone to research this for themselves, however if anyone wants links about something that they wonder about, let me know & I will try to find them again...
My prayer is we can look into this & test this together as the priesthood of ALL believers, where EVERYONE has something to share to edify, encourage & build up the body of Christ so that ALL may learn!
For the Glory of God & our good...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Part of response to MW's 4.5 hr section on authentein... still have an hour to go...
The context of the BGU 1208 papyrus use of "authentein" being translated into English (a long discussion of this use starts about 4:43:50 & I can understand why MW's excited about this even if I don't agree with him) is an amazing answer to prayer of the following from an earlier response! This is what I'm looking for. I believe these will help unlock the meaning of what has been called a very strange, rare, coarse, vulgar word not used in polite company & whether it's positive or pejorative!
excerpt from 2nd comment on 12.26.23: There is more, but one of the things I would love help with is finding the actual narratives of where "authente" is used in the original sources... I have the English translation, I have names of who used it that we know of, & the century when it was used... Now having the actual context for each one would be amazing! EOQ
what especially caught my attention when I read the letter (THIS IS FASCINATING! FINAL-BGU-1208-Translation-and-Notes.pdf (biblethinker.org) ) are the indication by the translator that the letter probably includes some level of sarcasm & I wonder if "authentein" is a bit of coarse slang between guys where Tryphon writes that I showed him & put that con man in his place bc how dare someone try to cheat us. "Authentes" & cognates were considered vulgar words that were not used in polite company (I read that authentein words were not used in polite company somewhere in an article about the murder trials on Areopagus, but haven't been able to find that specific article again, but MW gives me the vulgar reference (see time stamp & link below), I have also read that someone also called authentein "odious" but don't have a specific source yet).
Moeris, also in the second century, advised his students to use another word, autodikein, as it was less coarse than authentein. The Byzantine Thomas Magister reiterates the warning against using this objectionable term. Ancient Heresies and a Strange Greek Verb - CBE International
See Clip that includes evidence of authentein being considered “vulgar” @ 5:52:52 ALL The Debates Over 1 Tim 2:11-15: Women in Ministry part 12 (it took me a year to make this) (youtube.com)
I am not saying I'm in agreement with the use as a positive example. I think there is more to this story & the hint that there is sarcasm piques my curiosity about that possibility... Authentein was a coarse & vulgar word not used in polite company, yet Paul used it!
There is something very unusual about this word & why Paul used this word instead of the much more common & acceptable exousia Strong's Greek: 1849. ἐξουσία (exousia) -- power to act, authority (biblehub.com) or kurieuo' Strong's Greek: 2961. κυριεύω (kurieuó) -- to be lord of, rule (biblehub.com)!
Lord, we have a love for You, Your people, Your truth, Your principles, Your ways, these are beautiful, precious & powerful... lead us, guide us in Your ways that are higher than the heavens above ours! For Your glory & our good!