I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
I continue to think about & wrestle with this & have been working through some of MW's videos... I did come across these responses to MW's videos which is far more than I could ever do! so here's a website with responses to MW videos #1-12 on women & the Church, including the 11.5 hr video on 1 Timothy 2!
Again, both sides have some things right & some things wrong, what both sides seem to get wrong is an obsession with who has authority in the church when Jesus says we are NOT to exercise authority over one another in the church, & also at the expense of what He DOES command, to love one another as He has loved us x 17 + >40 other one another commands in the NT! I am baffled by how these seem to have been almost completely ignored in the Church! Shifting our lens from authority over one another to the one another concept is going to take the Holy Spirit helping us see where we got off course as a catalyst for metanoia to change our hearts & minds!
So even if "authentein" means "exercise authority" (which I continue to doubt that is what Paul meant), no one, male or female, is supposed to exercise authority over their brothers & sisters in the Lord! That instead of sibling rivalry of who rules or submits, we are called to COLLABORATE together aka the 59 ONE ANOTHER commands!
I'm starting to read this bookThe Atlas Factor & a few days ago when it came, I just randomly flipped it open to page 95 & found it confirming & encouraging that the author shares about some "one anothers" on this page!!!
Thanks for your response Rob... lots of thoughts... I have a long, long list of laments of unfortunate, unbiblical, opposite of scripture, out of alignment with scripture stuff/traditions in the institutional church...
it's systemic - part of the institutional/denominational DNA... I grieve over the state of the Church & the CRC as that's my camp/expression/tradition that I've been a part of my entire life...I will save most of my response for later... but here's a few thoughts...
on God being pragmatic, I just found it humorous that God forming women for relationship, to help steward creation & be fruitful & multiply together, is not only beautiful, but so practical! The good fruit is often practical, helping others flourish & thrive!
Ok, on men & women being equal in inherent value... this is really only in the last 50 years - it's NOT the traditional view, it's a pretty recent view... before that, everything was pretty much through the lens of men being superior... read the church fathers, reformers, etc. there are some pretty demeaning quotes about women from them. Then there are the people that call themselves "comp" but are actually patriarchal... I would give Doug Wilson as an example, but I think he says he is patriarchal.
& I like to call it loving servantship (based on Phil 2/Matt 20) not leadership... & leading (verb) is not about a title or a position... it's about being an example (I have a compilation of verses on this) that convinces/persuades others by our character & love for one another to walk in God's Spirit & Truth together. Sometimes, that includes teaching/sharing/testifying/exhorting/etc.
3956pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Why did the church not endorse Women in Office until the 1970s when feminism arose?
They did ordain women for the first several hundred years... Marg's article gives examples of women serving as deacons & elders... so what happened?
QUOTE: Perhaps the biggest clue that a few churches (and not necessarily heterodox churches) had women elders is found in the Council of Laodicea. In a misguided move, this council banned the formal ordination of women who were elders, or priests, and who were serving their church as leaders.
It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘elders/ presbyters/ priests’ (presbytides) or ‘women presidents’ (prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches. Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea (circa 360) EOQ from the following:
Hi Rob, thanks for starting this new post for this discussion. Look forward to respectful, rich & robust engagement on behalf of God's Kingdom, what is His best for His holy people as we love one another as He has loved us, as we go to His Word with the help of the Holy Spirit, to find His principles & truths.
Lord, we thank You that we can search the scriptures for Your truth, that Your Holy Spirit leads & guides us into all truth. We pray for Your wisdom & discernment as we dig into the ancient texts and cultures, help us to test what is from You & recognize where the enemy is trying to bring confusion & division. Heavenly Father, we ask that our hearts & minds are humble and open to whatever You intended for us as part of Your family, as Your children & as brothers & sisters in the Lord. For Your glory & our good, in Jesus' precious Name, may it be so...
As we celebrate Pentecost this week Sunday, the day the Spirit trumped the ***traditional gender barrier by pouring out on both men and women, here's some food for thought...
The apostle Peter quoted the prophet Joel in his Pentecost sermon, declaring, “Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17, emphasis added) when the Spirit was poured out on the men and women gathered in the upper room & each of them received a holy flame.
*** the following article shares a bit of info on how the traditional gender barrier arose over the ages based on pagan philosophies and traditions...
The following was a comment I posted originally in Rob's What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org)... Rob has graciously moved the conversation here to it's own post.... I hope many will join us as we wrestle with our views of women leadership in the church & what that looks like.
Rob, Bonnie, Kristen, Keith, Hetty & anyone else who is interested...
since it came up...
I would love to have a discussion on 1 Tim 2:12 etc regarding women in ministry with whoever is interested... I have done a deep dive into the hapax legomenon "Authentein" & other very rare Greek words used in 1 Timothy related to women... what I have found is these words are associated with sorcery/witchcraft of specific goddesses that were worshipped in Ephesus, including Artemis of the Ephesians per Acts 19 & the crone goddess hecate (old woman/crone in 1 Tim 4:7 & also referred to in 5:13 re the Greek word for boiling, seething pot ie cauldron & the Greek word for sorcery also used one other time in Acts 19:19)... this cultural context of 50+ gods/goddesses in Ephesus has often been ignored & dismissed in the discussion of "authentein" & 1 Timothy.
when we understand "authentein" as general authority in 1 Tim 2:12, we ignore the horrific history of authentein, along with limiting women in ways that were never intended... up until about 100 AD, the "authente" root was almost always used in the context of violence... ie murder, suicide, sacrifice (ie Septuagint Wisdom of Solomon 12:3-6 where it is referring to parents who murdered/sacrificed their children to idols...
from Strongs: a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
authentein was violently evil until around 100 AD when the early gnostics coopted the "authente' root to describe their divine all powerful being... from Strongs b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: Strong's Greek: 831. αὐθεντέω (authenteó) -- to govern, exercise authority (biblehub.com)
EXCERPT:
Meanings for authentein in the TLG between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. (a 400-year span with the New Testament period at its center) include the following:
the descriptions that have to do w authority are post 100AD in the gnostic writings... we have to look at pre Paul & Post Paul bc the word started morphing via the early gnostics within a few years/ decades after Paul used it in his letter to Timothy. I believe we have conflated the pre Paul (Earlier usage) & the post Paul (later Greek writings starting with the early gnostics around 100AD) that has caused much confusion over the ages... it is critical we differentiate between before Paul & after Paul.
Authentein then morphed, as a result of the gnostic using the 'Authente" root in their writings, over the next 300 years so that by400 AD, Jerome used the Latin "dominare" in the Latin Vulgate... then in early 1500s Erasmus used "usurp authority"... authentein kept getting less & less negative over the ages & now we have a neutral general authority... but Paul would have most likely been familiar with the use of the authente root word in the Septuagint as a violent form of complete power over someone who had NO power ie young children.
that's just the tip of the iceberg... the research is fascinating but also heartbreaking as it seems some very, very rare Greek words have been misunderstood regarding women & we are still struggling with the impact of this!
I have never, ever heard or read anyone mention hecate in the context of 1 Tim & Ephesus... but there are some very rare Greek words that indicate Paul is referring to her as the crone in 1 tim 4:7 & again in 5:13 along with numerous other references to satanic beliefs (ie doctrines of demons, throne of satan, synagogue of satan, secrets of satan, etc). in Ephesus/Asia Minor..
& here's the portion from Septuagint's Wisdom 12... that parallels the cultural context Paul & Timothy are dealing with in Ephesus...
murder is definitely on Paul's mind in 1 Timothy... he mentions 3 very specific type of murders in 1 Tim 1:9-10, each is a hapax legomenon like authentein.
Thoughts? Can we move this to it's own discussion post? (YUP, it happened! Here we are!) where can we have this discussion? since the women as pastors came up for various reasons, I think it's important that we take another hard look at 1 Timothy & other scriptures that have been used to limit women serving in various ways...
the family of God is not about authority over anyone (per Jesus in Matt 20 & Peter in 1 Peter 5 ), it's about how we love/serve one another by character. & example through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Hi Rob, thanks for continuing to engage in this discussion (here we are on page TWO of comments!) and pursue reading some of the work that has been recently published...
I engaged directly with Sandra Glahn a little bit, as I disagreed with her emphasis on Artemis while ignoring the 50 other gods/goddesses in the Ephesus region (part of Phrygia, now western Turkey). Some of these goddesses were considered "magna maters"... The Mother of all Gods: The Phrygian Cybele | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)
yes, there has been confusion over the ages of the Greek Artemis & Artemis of the Ephesians... lots of overlap, but some specific distinctions as well. Cybele (Phrygian origins) has often been conflated with Artemis which has added to the confusion. Hecate had her own altar/idol in the temple of Artemis in Ephesus... lots of syncretism going on!
The biggest gap to me is not recognizing the witchcraft/sorcery (ie Hecate the crone goddess of witchcraft) that was rampant in this region and that is a key factor in the lens Paul & Timothy are looking through & dealing with as false teaching. Theologians are avoiding the witchcraft factor for some reason, not denying it (Acts 19:19 is in the bible after all, & it is specifically in EPHESUS), but ignoring it almost completely for the most part for a significant part of the context of 1 Timothy it seems! Sandra does the same!
I did check out Denny Burke's review on her book as well... oh my, very problematic - LOTS OF FALSE STATMENTS... both sides still seem to miss the fact that Jesus says NO ONE is to EXCERCISE AUTHORITY over others in the Body of Christ! Why have we spent a lot of time and ink on whether only women should not exercise authority over men & very little time on that Jesus says NONE OF US are to exercise authority, in Matt 21:25-26, over men or women? So, whether authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 means exercise authority or not (& I believe Paul meant something considerably different**), no one is contesting that exercise authority is what Jesus meant in Matthew, with no gender limitations, yet we ignore this verse! Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
Most egalitarians do not see men and women as androgynous, but recognize holistic differences... however, traditionally, women have been considered inferior in various ways & this included the thinking of the church fathers. To say this lens of inferiority regarding women didn't influence how they interpreted scripture would be & has been harmful to the Body of Christ for far too long. Recognizing women as equal & created in the image of God has mostly been since the 1970's.
I believe the 59 "one another" commands are the lens of how we love our brothers and sisters in the Lord. I think we need to use the language of "serving" a lot more than focusing on "leaders" or "pastors" & "authority" and "submission"
I believe collaboration/cooperation/sharing responsibilities as we work together (synergeo/co-laboring) is a far better translation/understanding of the Greek word "hupotasso" instead of submit in the non military context of relationships in the family & church...
I believe intentionally praying together consistently will help shift the power dynamics to "one another" instead of authority over...
I believe how women (especially women's input/voice) have been traditionally limited in the Body of Christ is an example of how traditions of man/elders have nullified God's word, which God warns us can happen!
Until we understand it's not about authority and power over, we will continue to cheat the Ekklesia of the full richness of fellowship walking in God's ways with one another as the family of God!
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I continue to think about & wrestle with this & have been working through some of MW's videos... I did come across these responses to MW's videos which is far more than I could ever do! so here's a website with responses to MW videos #1-12 on women & the Church, including the 11.5 hr video on 1 Timothy 2!
A 14-Point Biblical Case for Women Leaders and Teachers And Why Mike Winger, The Gospel Coalition, and the Southern Baptists Are Wrong About This - Terran Williams
Again, both sides have some things right & some things wrong, what both sides seem to get wrong is an obsession with who has authority in the church when Jesus says we are NOT to exercise authority over one another in the church, & also at the expense of what He DOES command, to love one another as He has loved us x 17 + >40 other one another commands in the NT! I am baffled by how these seem to have been almost completely ignored in the Church! Shifting our lens from authority over one another to the one another concept is going to take the Holy Spirit helping us see where we got off course as a catalyst for metanoia to change our hearts & minds!
Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network (crcna.org)
So even if "authentein" means "exercise authority" (which I continue to doubt that is what Paul meant), no one, male or female, is supposed to exercise authority over their brothers & sisters in the Lord! That instead of sibling rivalry of who rules or submits, we are called to COLLABORATE together aka the 59 ONE ANOTHER commands!
I'm starting to read this bookThe Atlas Factor & a few days ago when it came, I just randomly flipped it open to page 95 & found it confirming & encouraging that the author shares about some "one anothers" on this page!!!
The Atlas Factor
Shift Your Leadership Onto the Shoulders of Jesus
Renew your organizational culture, allowing everyone to thrive with their gifts, talents, and wisdom.
peace & prayers until next time...
7 Powerful Prayers for the Truth to Be Revealed - Prayrs
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Rob... lots of thoughts... I have a long, long list of laments of unfortunate, unbiblical, opposite of scripture, out of alignment with scripture stuff/traditions in the institutional church...
it's systemic - part of the institutional/denominational DNA... I grieve over the state of the Church & the CRC as that's my camp/expression/tradition that I've been a part of my entire life...I will save most of my response for later... but here's a few thoughts...
on God being pragmatic, I just found it humorous that God forming women for relationship, to help steward creation & be fruitful & multiply together, is not only beautiful, but so practical! The good fruit is often practical, helping others flourish & thrive!
Ok, on men & women being equal in inherent value... this is really only in the last 50 years - it's NOT the traditional view, it's a pretty recent view... before that, everything was pretty much through the lens of men being superior... read the church fathers, reformers, etc. there are some pretty demeaning quotes about women from them. Then there are the people that call themselves "comp" but are actually patriarchal... I would give Doug Wilson as an example, but I think he says he is patriarchal.
& I like to call it loving servantship (based on Phil 2/Matt 20) not leadership... & leading (verb) is not about a title or a position... it's about being an example (I have a compilation of verses on this) that convinces/persuades others by our character & love for one another to walk in God's Spirit & Truth together. Sometimes, that includes teaching/sharing/testifying/exhorting/etc.
anyway, that's not even the tip of the iceberg...
Blessings...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's another example of "men" being added in the 84 NIV when the Greek is inclusive... Makes me cry & ask why?!?!? What is the reason to add it?
John 3:35 in the 84 NIV (& several other versions) adds men... the KJV puts it in italics to signify it is added...
"... By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." (biblehub.com)
John 13:35 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Going back to one of Rob's opening questions:
Why did the church not endorse Women in Office until the 1970s when feminism arose?
They did ordain women for the first several hundred years... Marg's article gives examples of women serving as deacons & elders... so what happened?
QUOTE: Perhaps the biggest clue that a few churches (and not necessarily heterodox churches) had women elders is found in the Council of Laodicea. In a misguided move, this council banned the formal ordination of women who were elders, or priests, and who were serving their church as leaders.
It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘elders/ presbyters/ priests’ (presbytides) or ‘women presidents’ (prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches.
Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea (circa 360) EOQ from the following:
An Overview of Women Ministers in the Early Church - Marg Mowczko
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hi Rob, thanks for starting this new post for this discussion. Look forward to respectful, rich & robust engagement on behalf of God's Kingdom, what is His best for His holy people as we love one another as He has loved us, as we go to His Word with the help of the Holy Spirit, to find His principles & truths.
Lord, we thank You that we can search the scriptures for Your truth, that Your Holy Spirit leads & guides us into all truth. We pray for Your wisdom & discernment as we dig into the ancient texts and cultures, help us to test what is from You & recognize where the enemy is trying to bring confusion & division. Heavenly Father, we ask that our hearts & minds are humble and open to whatever You intended for us as part of Your family, as Your children & as brothers & sisters in the Lord. For Your glory & our good, in Jesus' precious Name, may it be so...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
As we celebrate Pentecost this week Sunday, the day the Spirit trumped the ***traditional gender barrier by pouring out on both men and women, here's some food for thought...
The apostle Peter quoted the prophet Joel in his Pentecost sermon, declaring, “Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy” (Acts 2:17, emphasis added) when the Spirit was poured out on the men and women gathered in the upper room & each of them received a holy flame.
*** the following article shares a bit of info on how the traditional gender barrier arose over the ages based on pagan philosophies and traditions...
Hierarchy-and-the-Biblical-Worldview.pdf (cbeinternational.org)
praying for the Kingdom church to flourish and thrive in love & truth through the power of the Holy Spirit!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
The following was a comment I posted originally in Rob's What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org)... Rob has graciously moved the conversation here to it's own post.... I hope many will join us as we wrestle with our views of women leadership in the church & what that looks like.
Rob, Bonnie, Kristen, Keith, Hetty & anyone else who is interested...
since it came up...
I would love to have a discussion on 1 Tim 2:12 etc regarding women in ministry with whoever is interested... I have done a deep dive into the hapax legomenon "Authentein" & other very rare Greek words used in 1 Timothy related to women... what I have found is these words are associated with sorcery/witchcraft of specific goddesses that were worshipped in Ephesus, including Artemis of the Ephesians per Acts 19 & the crone goddess hecate (old woman/crone in 1 Tim 4:7 & also referred to in 5:13 re the Greek word for boiling, seething pot ie cauldron & the Greek word for sorcery also used one other time in Acts 19:19)... this cultural context of 50+ gods/goddesses in Ephesus has often been ignored & dismissed in the discussion of "authentein" & 1 Timothy.
when we understand "authentein" as general authority in 1 Tim 2:12, we ignore the horrific history of authentein, along with limiting women in ways that were never intended... up until about 100 AD, the "authente" root was almost always used in the context of violence... ie murder, suicide, sacrifice (ie Septuagint Wisdom of Solomon 12:3-6 where it is referring to parents who murdered/sacrificed their children to idols...
from Strongs: a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
authentein was violently evil until around 100 AD when the early gnostics coopted the "authente' root to describe their divine all powerful being... from Strongs b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: Strong's Greek: 831. αὐθεντέω (authenteó) -- to govern, exercise authority (biblehub.com)
EXCERPT:
Meanings for authentein in the TLG between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. (a 400-year span with the New Testament period at its center) include the following:
– “doer of a massacre”
– “author of crimes”
– “perpetrators of sacrilege”
– “supporter of violent actions”
– “murderer of oneself”
– “sole power”
– “perpetrator of slaughter”
– “murderer”
– “slayer”
– “slayer of oneself”
– “authority”
– “perpetrator of evil”
– “one who murders by his own hand”
excerpt from: Defusing the 1 Timothy 2:12 Bomb: What Does Paul Mean by Authority (Authentein) | The Junia Project
the descriptions that have to do w authority are post 100AD in the gnostic writings... we have to look at pre Paul & Post Paul bc the word started morphing via the early gnostics within a few years/ decades after Paul used it in his letter to Timothy. I believe we have conflated the pre Paul (Earlier usage) & the post Paul (later Greek writings starting with the early gnostics around 100AD) that has caused much confusion over the ages... it is critical we differentiate between before Paul & after Paul.
Authentein then morphed, as a result of the gnostic using the 'Authente" root in their writings, over the next 300 years so that by400 AD, Jerome used the Latin "dominare" in the Latin Vulgate... then in early 1500s Erasmus used "usurp authority"... authentein kept getting less & less negative over the ages & now we have a neutral general authority... but Paul would have most likely been familiar with the use of the authente root word in the Septuagint as a violent form of complete power over someone who had NO power ie young children.
that's just the tip of the iceberg... the research is fascinating but also heartbreaking as it seems some very, very rare Greek words have been misunderstood regarding women & we are still struggling with the impact of this!
FYI on Hecate, she was known as the Crone goddess of WITCHCRAFT & CHILDBIRTH (1 Tim 2:15)... one of her symbols was a cauldron... her altar/idol was in the temple of artemis in ephesus (artemis was also known as a goddess of childbirth).. Everything You Need To Know About Hecate (Maiden, Mother, Crone) (thecollector.com)
I have never, ever heard or read anyone mention hecate in the context of 1 Tim & Ephesus... but there are some very rare Greek words that indicate Paul is referring to her as the crone in 1 tim 4:7 & again in 5:13 along with numerous other references to satanic beliefs (ie doctrines of demons, throne of satan, synagogue of satan, secrets of satan, etc). in Ephesus/Asia Minor..
& here's the portion from Septuagint's Wisdom 12... that parallels the cultural context Paul & Timothy are dealing with in Ephesus...
For it was thy will to destroy by the hands of our fathers both those old inhabitants of thy holy land,
4Whom thou hatedst for doing most odious works of witchcrafts, and wicked sacrifices;
5And also those merciless murderers of children, and devourers of man's flesh, and the feasts of blood,
6With their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands souls destitute of help:
WISDOM OF SOLOMON CHAPTER 12 KJV (kingjamesbibleonline.org)
murder is definitely on Paul's mind in 1 Timothy... he mentions 3 very specific type of murders in 1 Tim 1:9-10, each is a hapax legomenon like authentein.
Thoughts? Can we move this to it's own discussion post? (YUP, it happened! Here we are!) where can we have this discussion? since the women as pastors came up for various reasons, I think it's important that we take another hard look at 1 Timothy & other scriptures that have been used to limit women serving in various ways...
the family of God is not about authority over anyone (per Jesus in Matt 20 & Peter in 1 Peter 5 ), it's about how we love/serve one another by character. & example through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
anyways, some food for thought from a bit of my research on 1 Timothy & Ephesus
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hi Rob, thanks for continuing to engage in this discussion (here we are on page TWO of comments!) and pursue reading some of the work that has been recently published...
I engaged directly with Sandra Glahn a little bit, as I disagreed with her emphasis on Artemis while ignoring the 50 other gods/goddesses in the Ephesus region (part of Phrygia, now western Turkey). Some of these goddesses were considered "magna maters"... The Mother of all Gods: The Phrygian Cybele | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)
yes, there has been confusion over the ages of the Greek Artemis & Artemis of the Ephesians... lots of overlap, but some specific distinctions as well. Cybele (Phrygian origins) has often been conflated with Artemis which has added to the confusion. Hecate had her own altar/idol in the temple of Artemis in Ephesus... lots of syncretism going on!
The biggest gap to me is not recognizing the witchcraft/sorcery (ie Hecate the crone goddess of witchcraft) that was rampant in this region and that is a key factor in the lens Paul & Timothy are looking through & dealing with as false teaching. Theologians are avoiding the witchcraft factor for some reason, not denying it (Acts 19:19 is in the bible after all, & it is specifically in EPHESUS), but ignoring it almost completely for the most part for a significant part of the context of 1 Timothy it seems! Sandra does the same!
I did check out Denny Burke's review on her book as well... oh my, very problematic - LOTS OF FALSE STATMENTS... both sides still seem to miss the fact that Jesus says NO ONE is to EXCERCISE AUTHORITY over others in the Body of Christ! Why have we spent a lot of time and ink on whether only women should not exercise authority over men & very little time on that Jesus says NONE OF US are to exercise authority, in Matt 21:25-26, over men or women? So, whether authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 means exercise authority or not (& I believe Paul meant something considerably different**), no one is contesting that exercise authority is what Jesus meant in Matthew, with no gender limitations, yet we ignore this verse! Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
edit #2: I accidently used the wrong link earlier to the word that means lording it over in the same verse: Strong's Greek: 2634. κατακυριεύω (katakurieuo) -- I exercise authority over, overpower (biblehub.com) (**why did Paul not use this Greek(not Geek as I originally posted 😉) word instead of authentein, if exercise authority is what he meant in 1 Tim 2:12?)
Most egalitarians do not see men and women as androgynous, but recognize holistic differences... however, traditionally, women have been considered inferior in various ways & this included the thinking of the church fathers. To say this lens of inferiority regarding women didn't influence how they interpreted scripture would be & has been harmful to the Body of Christ for far too long. Recognizing women as equal & created in the image of God has mostly been since the 1970's.
I believe the 59 "one another" commands are the lens of how we love our brothers and sisters in the Lord. I think we need to use the language of "serving" a lot more than focusing on "leaders" or "pastors" & "authority" and "submission"
I believe collaboration/cooperation/sharing responsibilities as we work together (synergeo/co-laboring) is a far better translation/understanding of the Greek word "hupotasso" instead of submit in the non military context of relationships in the family & church...
I believe intentionally praying together consistently will help shift the power dynamics to "one another" instead of authority over...
I believe how women (especially women's input/voice) have been traditionally limited in the Body of Christ is an example of how traditions of man/elders have nullified God's word, which God warns us can happen!
Until we understand it's not about authority and power over, we will continue to cheat the Ekklesia of the full richness of fellowship walking in God's ways with one another as the family of God!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
What Child Is This / Child of the Poor | The Hound + The Fox - YouTube
(750) David Phelps and Maggie Beth Phelps - Agnus Dei [Live] - YouTube (FYI: this is a different version of Agnus Dei, not the MW Smith one)
... back to regularly scheduled discussions...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them aside and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
NOT SO WITH YOU... Matt 20:26
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!