Bev Sterk
I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I am so sorry Hetty! I cry too! So many women harmed & limited by lies of the enemy over the ages (it is only in the last 50 years that some are accepting women as equal in value, not inferior as has been the belief for 1000s of years)... The refusal to recognize these translational errors is the very opposite of saying we have a high view of God's Word! as Beth Moore shared, some only want to use their version/interpretation to support their view...
A Letter to My Brothers - Living Proof Ministries Blog Living Proof Ministries Blog (lproof.org)
BOQ: Then early October 2016 surfaced attitudes among some key Christian leaders that smacked of misogyny, objectification and astonishing disesteem of women and it spread like wildfire. It was just the beginning. I came face to face with one of the most demoralizing realizations of my adult life: Scripture was not the reason for the colossal disregard and disrespect of women among many of these men. It was only the excuse. Sin was the reason. Ungodliness.
This is where I cry foul and not for my own sake. Most of my life is behind me. I do so for sake of my gender, for the sake of our sisters in Christ and for the sake of other female leaders who will be faced with similar challenges. I do so for the sake of my brothers because Christlikeness is at stake and many of you are in positions to foster Christlikeness in your sons and in the men under your influence. The dignity with which Christ treated women in the Gospels is fiercely beautiful and it was not conditional upon their understanding their place. EOQ
Not saying that all men are complicit, but the abdication of pursuing justice on behalf of women, along with being compromised with sin (ie porn which is included in human trafficking where women & children are the primary victims) & the silence of many continues to harm women around the world!
Church/priesthood of ALL believers/family of God, we can & must do better!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Peithesthe!
be discerning & test everything...
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
The CRC's decision in 1995/1996 regarding women was a landing place for something that has been a source of contentious concerns, intense debate, & voluminous writings over the decades & centuries. I can see why the view of women was not clear back then, with both sides seeking to follow God's heart in scripture... however since then, there seems to be a continuing undercurrent running just below the surface regarding each other's view that shows up when we get both views in the same "room"... instead of trying to resolve the different views, each side seems to be getting further entrenched & divided, finding new alliances that agree on their particular view. The egals seem to be focused on the big picture principles & want to move forward, no longer looking at the difficult scripture passages that the comps cite as "clear" and "plain" & the comps seem to be getting more entrenched that the difficult passages are clear regarding women, through groups like CBMW, Together for the gospel (T4G), Sovereign Grace, the Gospel Coalition, etc. type of groups that are all "complementarian" in their view of women, promoting the "created order" as the end all of the discussion, finding alliances with other comps despite many historic differences that have separated denominations over the ages.
I agree with aspects of compl, egal & feminism, but also disagree with aspects of each. I believe tradition of man/elders has elevated authority, power, titles, hierarchy, degrees, institutions at the expense of the Spirit & ALL the gifts especially prophecy (for both men & women), at the expense of the one another commands/principle, at the expense of the priesthood of all believers, at the expense of Jesus saying we (men & women) are not to "lord it over"/exercise authority over in the Body of Christ. Both sides need to consider giving up the idea of traditional hierarchical leadership power structures. If that possibility make you uncomfortable, ask yourself why. These are the way of the world based on business models, based on man's way, based on traditions of man/elders- including the eternal submission of the Son (thanks to George Knight lll & Wayne Grudem) that literally nullifies God's word in ways per Matt 15/Mark 7! This is an entire discussion on its own! Is this a systemic threat to the status quo? definitely! But God's way is so much more beautiful when we cooperate & collaborate together, loving one another instead of lording/ruling/exercising authority over one another! God's best for us as His family, is to flourish and thrive in our journey of faith following our Lord & Savior, that we can have abundant life in Christ (this is John 10:10b, not the prosperity gospel).
Rob mentions that being pragmatic is secondary to God's word... I was thinking about this & I had to laugh... God forming Eve from Adam is very pragmatic! the only time God said "it is not good..." during creation is after Adam was created, when Adam was alone... the only time God said "very good" is after He created Eve! Problem solved! We are mandated to steward/rule over creation together, not over each other!
The pragmatic fruit Kathy shared is part of what helps us test what is good & what is not as scripture encourages us to do... unfortunately the LGBTQ views adds confusion to the views on women & has been used to dismiss valid support for women. Lumping these 2 together is not helpful & causes confusion. of course, everyone is going to say whatever they believe is good! I agree there has been a correlation between egal view of women & SSM that needs to be discussed. But there is also a correlation between compl & patriarchy that adds to the confusion & should be discussed! Both views have aspects that add to the confusion! God warns us around 30 times in the NT to not be deceived. It's a (painful) prayer we all can pray for God to show us where we might be being deceived. I have a long list of answers! the key is being open & humble to being wrong! (this reminds me of something I compiled re metanoia that maybe I will share in a new post)
I have also experienced & witnessed the "feminist" label (& other labels) used as a way to dismiss legitimate questions, information, quest for God's best for His people, similar to the LGBTQ comparison, instead of taking an honest, humble look at the information. The enemy uses all kinds of tactics to cause chaos & confusion... that's why we need the discerning of spirits gift of the Spirit along with prophecy...
I will address the abuse aspect in another response... it's complicated, but there's plenty of reason the (not so) good old boys club is a reality!
for now... The Inner Ring from CS Lewis... Innerring - CS Lewis Society of California
the quest for power & positions of influence is an age old battle... As followers of Jesus, He asks us to do the opposite.
20Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and knelt down to make a request of Him. 21“What do you want?” He inquired. She answered, “Declare that in Your kingdom one of these two sons of mine may sit at Your right hand, and the other at Your left.” ...
24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. 26It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hi Rob, thanks for your response... after being sick for almost 2 weeks, then being out of town quite a bit the last few weeks, along with a number of crisis situations connected to ministry that came up where my help was requested, I am now working on catching up on what I got behind on over the last month, so it might be a bit before I get back on this in more detail! I remember waiting for my son a few weeks ago & thinking, finally, I think things have calmed down a bit & not even a half hour later got a text re a crisis, along with several more since then! It's been a pretty chaotic year so far! We don't talk about spiritual warfare much in the CRC, but it seems like 2024 has had its share already! PTL, that as believers, God works all things for our good & His glory, & even though it's often a painful journey, it's profound as well!
So a few general thoughts for now, (I was trying to make this a quick/short response, but no surprise to anyone I'm sure, that didn't happen ;)...
there are a number of inconsistencies/errors on both sides of the comp/egal discussion. For example, I wonder why is this type of energy not directed to ALL MEN raising their hands in PRAYER as a UNIVERSAL behavior per 1 Tim 2:8 if comps are trying to make 1 Tim 2:12 UNIVERSAL for ALL WOMEN? & let's talk about the pathetic stats on PRAYER in the Church, something EVERYONE is CLEARLY COMMANDED to do, privately AND collectively, especially for those considered elders (Acts 6:4)! Prayerlessness is a SIGNIFICANT sin in the Church! Even the CRC title of "Minister of the Word" based on Acts 6:4 should be Ministers of the Word AND Prayer with seminaries training pastors/elders to have a balanced emphasis on both (generally not the case from the conversations I have had with pastors & with those who have talked/connected with multiple seminaries to address this gap)! Prayer is a primary calling for everyone, yet the stats are heartbreaking (Avg about 3-5 minutes/day, pastors avg about 7-8 minutes/day, only about 5% of churches have a collective prayer meeting outside of praying during the worship service) & the lack of much good fruit is pretty obvious as we are living in a time when evil is blatantly being called good & good being called evil! I could say a whole lot more about this as prayer has become a primary focus in my life since 2006! All that to say, why not at least have an equal focus on challenging prayerlessness, not just the roles of women, when we are looking at 1 Tim 2:8-15? Because prayer creates a unity we cannot explain... Ie the divorce rate for couples who consistently pray together drops from 1 in every 2-3 marriages to 1 in TEN THOUSAND! (see link for stat) This unity can also happen when we pray together as families & as sisters & brothers in the Lord!
The Enduring Impact of Prayer in Marriage | Abounding in Hope with Lyme
Back to roles of women in the Church... 1 Tim 2 regarding women is not clear (you shared you see an 80% / 20% possibility of different meanings of authentein which indicates some of the confusion in this passage, v15 has historically been considered by scholars to be one of the most difficult passages of scripture), especially when we examine the cultural context of the pantheon of gods & goddesses & their practices (incl witchcraft) along with the early gnostic beliefs (incl. bizarre creation stories that elevate Eve & denigrate the Hebrew God, YHWH) & practices (incl astrology, sorcery, syncretism) that have gotten very little attention over the ages as far as I can tell & seem to get dismissed fairly quickly by comps when it comes up re 1 Timothy.
There are other hapax legomenon in 1 Timothy (as well as other NT books) that I hope to dig into this year that I want to further research, however, my time is limited & my background with Greek is limited. Authentein was the first Greek word that introduced me to becoming aware of hapax legomenon in the NT & that was at some point about 5-6 years ago & it's only in the last 3 years or so that I have looked into other hapax legomenon in the NT that have raised questions for me about the translations of these rare words! I hope to pursue this research when I can have some help from someone that is far more knowledgeable & experienced with Greek. At this point I would say most of the Body of Christ does not even know what a hapax legomenon is or are aware that authentein is one, & that an entire doctrine regarding women has been heavily impacted by this one very rare, strange word that has a complicated & confusing history, & is anything but "clear", despite what comps say! 1 Tim 2:12 is often (not always) the first verse referred to by comps & a good share of the attention/energy is often focused on this verse (ie Mike W's 11+ hour video after a year of research! even though, I appreciate him taking time to look into this bc it needs to be done, it shows how complicated & confusing the support for limiting women in various roles in the institutional church is).
Also, I mentioned this in another comment/response, the recognition of women as equal in value is a recent shift. That has not been the traditional belief for 1000s of years! Women have not been protected & provided for, instead often been abused (1 in 3 sexually abused by age 18, let alone physical/emotional/verbal abuse) & exploited (porn/prostitution/human trafficking) with men often adding to the harm or abdicating seeking justice on behalf of the women abused & exploited! How did the Church get the value of women wrong for so long? Why did it take women's voices to advocate on behalf of other women to bring the abuse & exploitation of women (& children) to the attention of others?
Part of my lens based on several key principles of scripture is that the Body of Christ is meant to be a cooperative (mutual submission per Eph 5:21), collaborative (synergos/co labors per Paul), prophetic (1 Cor 14 +), loving (& 40+ other) one another (The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org) ), seeking justice (Micah 6:8 + tons more), walking humbly as servants (Micah 6:8+) & the royal priesthood of ALL believers, not lording it over or exercising authority over others in the Body of Christ (per Jesus)!
Somehow, from my perspective, it seems tradition has focused on men being superior & exclusively allowed to exercise authority as pastors (poimen) / elders (presbuteros) / deacons or ministers (diakonos) / bishops or overseers (episkopos) over inferior women through hierarchy (over/under, authority/submission) & titles at the expense of these KEY scriptural principles of mutuality/one another, justice, etc!
This is one possible way God's word can be nullified over 1000s of years by commandments/traditions of man/elders per Matt 15 & Mark 7!
I would rather be responding to your comments more in depth but need to get back to the backlog that accumulated over the last few weeks, especially since it includes bills & taxes!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
This response is a Bit of a switch of pace to share a bit on Deborah & Barak...
BARAK: HUMILIATION OR HERO
Judges 4:9 Commentaries: She said, "I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman." Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. (biblehub.com)
A few years ago, I remember coming across an article about Deborah & Barak, that made me take another look at the understanding that I had picked up in the CRC over the years. What I found stunned me!
I read something that the glory was always going to go to a woman, but what I had been taught was that the glory was going to a woman BECAUSE Barak was a weak cowardly man & God was using a woman to humiliate and shame him for not being the man he was supposed to be. God was using a woman only because the men refused to step up and do what they were supposed to do!
“Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh… per NIVs
Many of the commentaries back up this idea of Barak being a timid coward… here are a few samples from the bible hub link above:
This was a prediction which Barak could not understand at the time; but the strain of it conveyed a rebuke of his unmanly fears. Per Jamieson Fausset Brown
To enter into the force of this we must remember the humble and almost down-trodden position of women in the East, so that it could hardly fail to be a humiliation to a great warrior to be told that the chief glory would fall to a woman. Per Ellicot
It is greatly to the honour of a conqueror to take the general of the enemy’s army, or to kill him with his own hand; which, she tells him, should be denied him, as a small punishment for his diffidence and reluctance to comply with her directions; and as he would not go without a woman, so a woman should take away his honour from him. per Benson
However, what I found was pretty much ALL the other versions used “nevertheless”, “notwithstanding” that doesn’t place the blame and shame on Barak. Several commentaries support this view:
Those who in God's name call others to their duty, should be ready to assist them in it. Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour. Per Matthew Henry
Lest Barak’s hopes should soar too high, the prophetess foretells that the crowning glory shall not be his but Jael’s. It is doubtful whether any blame of Barak is implied: the words mean simply ‘thou wilt not gain the honours of the expedition.’ Per Cambridge Bible
So after taking another look at this story, the Hebrew used, along with looking at the Song of Deborah and Barak in Judges 5 where Barak is celebrating, not hanging his head in humiliation and shame, AND that Barak is listed as a HERO OF THE FAITH in Hebrews 11, I now believe this was a test for Barak, whether he would do what was right and needed to be done even if he didn’t get the glory…
I love Matthew Henry’s commentary on this:
Barak values the satisfaction of his mind, and the good success of his enterprise, more than mere honour.
HE PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS!
Judges 4:14-16
Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him. At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot. Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera's troops fell by the sword; not a man was left. (NIV)
1 Samuel 12:11
Then the Lord sent Jerub-Baal, Barak, Jephthah and Samuel, and he delivered you from the hands of your enemies all around you, so that you lived in safety. (NIV)
Hebrews 11:32
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets. (NIV)
I now believe God always intended to give the glory to a woman, as part of the justice for the women of Israel who had been sexually violated by Sisera’s soldiers per Judges 5, a common practice in war per Sisera's mother.
I now see this as a powerful picture of men and women COLLABORATING and CELEBRATING together under the prophetic leading of the Spirit resulting in justice and safety for the common good & for the glory of God…
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I continue to think about & wrestle with this & have been working through some of MW's videos... I did come across these responses to MW's videos which is far more than I could ever do! so here's a website with responses to MW videos #1-12 on women & the Church, including the 11.5 hr video on 1 Timothy 2!
A 14-Point Biblical Case for Women Leaders and Teachers And Why Mike Winger, The Gospel Coalition, and the Southern Baptists Are Wrong About This - Terran Williams
Again, both sides have some things right & some things wrong, what both sides seem to get wrong is an obsession with who has authority in the church when Jesus says we are NOT to exercise authority over one another in the church, & also at the expense of what He DOES command, to love one another as He has loved us x 17 + >40 other one another commands in the NT! I am baffled by how these seem to have been almost completely ignored in the Church! Shifting our lens from authority over one another to the one another concept is going to take the Holy Spirit helping us see where we got off course as a catalyst for metanoia to change our hearts & minds!
Metanoia: Moving Beyond Mere Repentance | CRC Network (crcna.org)
So even if "authentein" means "exercise authority" (which I continue to doubt that is what Paul meant), no one, male or female, is supposed to exercise authority over their brothers & sisters in the Lord! That instead of sibling rivalry of who rules or submits, we are called to COLLABORATE together aka the 59 ONE ANOTHER commands!
I'm starting to read this bookThe Atlas Factor & a few days ago when it came, I just randomly flipped it open to page 95 & found it confirming & encouraging that the author shares about some "one anothers" on this page!!!
The Atlas Factor
Shift Your Leadership Onto the Shoulders of Jesus
Renew your organizational culture, allowing everyone to thrive with their gifts, talents, and wisdom.
peace & prayers until next time...
7 Powerful Prayers for the Truth to Be Revealed - Prayrs
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Rob... lots of thoughts... I have a long, long list of laments of unfortunate, unbiblical, opposite of scripture, out of alignment with scripture stuff/traditions in the institutional church...
it's systemic - part of the institutional/denominational DNA... I grieve over the state of the Church & the CRC as that's my camp/expression/tradition that I've been a part of my entire life...I will save most of my response for later... but here's a few thoughts...
on God being pragmatic, I just found it humorous that God forming women for relationship, to help steward creation & be fruitful & multiply together, is not only beautiful, but so practical! The good fruit is often practical, helping others flourish & thrive!
Ok, on men & women being equal in inherent value... this is really only in the last 50 years - it's NOT the traditional view, it's a pretty recent view... before that, everything was pretty much through the lens of men being superior... read the church fathers, reformers, etc. there are some pretty demeaning quotes about women from them. Then there are the people that call themselves "comp" but are actually patriarchal... I would give Doug Wilson as an example, but I think he says he is patriarchal.
& I like to call it loving servantship (based on Phil 2/Matt 20) not leadership... & leading (verb) is not about a title or a position... it's about being an example (I have a compilation of verses on this) that convinces/persuades others by our character & love for one another to walk in God's Spirit & Truth together. Sometimes, that includes teaching/sharing/testifying/exhorting/etc.
anyway, that's not even the tip of the iceberg...
Blessings...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's another example of "men" being added in the 84 NIV when the Greek is inclusive... Makes me cry & ask why?!?!? What is the reason to add it?
John 3:35 in the 84 NIV (& several other versions) adds men... the KJV puts it in italics to signify it is added...
"... By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another." (biblehub.com)
John 13:35 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Going back to one of Rob's opening questions:
Why did the church not endorse Women in Office until the 1970s when feminism arose?
They did ordain women for the first several hundred years... Marg's article gives examples of women serving as deacons & elders... so what happened?
QUOTE: Perhaps the biggest clue that a few churches (and not necessarily heterodox churches) had women elders is found in the Council of Laodicea. In a misguided move, this council banned the formal ordination of women who were elders, or priests, and who were serving their church as leaders.
It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘elders/ presbyters/ priests’ (presbytides) or ‘women presidents’ (prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches.
Canon 11 of the Council of Laodicea (circa 360) EOQ from the following:
An Overview of Women Ministers in the Early Church - Marg Mowczko
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hi Rob, thanks for starting this new post for this discussion. Look forward to respectful, rich & robust engagement on behalf of God's Kingdom, what is His best for His holy people as we love one another as He has loved us, as we go to His Word with the help of the Holy Spirit, to find His principles & truths.
Lord, we thank You that we can search the scriptures for Your truth, that Your Holy Spirit leads & guides us into all truth. We pray for Your wisdom & discernment as we dig into the ancient texts and cultures, help us to test what is from You & recognize where the enemy is trying to bring confusion & division. Heavenly Father, we ask that our hearts & minds are humble and open to whatever You intended for us as part of Your family, as Your children & as brothers & sisters in the Lord. For Your glory & our good, in Jesus' precious Name, may it be so...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
The following was a comment I posted originally in Rob's What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org)... Rob has graciously moved the conversation here to it's own post.... I hope many will join us as we wrestle with our views of women leadership in the church & what that looks like.
Rob, Bonnie, Kristen, Keith, Hetty & anyone else who is interested...
since it came up...
I would love to have a discussion on 1 Tim 2:12 etc regarding women in ministry with whoever is interested... I have done a deep dive into the hapax legomenon "Authentein" & other very rare Greek words used in 1 Timothy related to women... what I have found is these words are associated with sorcery/witchcraft of specific goddesses that were worshipped in Ephesus, including Artemis of the Ephesians per Acts 19 & the crone goddess hecate (old woman/crone in 1 Tim 4:7 & also referred to in 5:13 re the Greek word for boiling, seething pot ie cauldron & the Greek word for sorcery also used one other time in Acts 19:19)... this cultural context of 50+ gods/goddesses in Ephesus has often been ignored & dismissed in the discussion of "authentein" & 1 Timothy.
when we understand "authentein" as general authority in 1 Tim 2:12, we ignore the horrific history of authentein, along with limiting women in ways that were never intended... up until about 100 AD, the "authente" root was almost always used in the context of violence... ie murder, suicide, sacrifice (ie Septuagint Wisdom of Solomon 12:3-6 where it is referring to parents who murdered/sacrificed their children to idols...
from Strongs: a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
authentein was violently evil until around 100 AD when the early gnostics coopted the "authente' root to describe their divine all powerful being... from Strongs b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: Strong's Greek: 831. αὐθεντέω (authenteó) -- to govern, exercise authority (biblehub.com)
EXCERPT:
Meanings for authentein in the TLG between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. (a 400-year span with the New Testament period at its center) include the following:
– “doer of a massacre”
– “author of crimes”
– “perpetrators of sacrilege”
– “supporter of violent actions”
– “murderer of oneself”
– “sole power”
– “perpetrator of slaughter”
– “murderer”
– “slayer”
– “slayer of oneself”
– “authority”
– “perpetrator of evil”
– “one who murders by his own hand”
excerpt from: Defusing the 1 Timothy 2:12 Bomb: What Does Paul Mean by Authority (Authentein) | The Junia Project
the descriptions that have to do w authority are post 100AD in the gnostic writings... we have to look at pre Paul & Post Paul bc the word started morphing via the early gnostics within a few years/ decades after Paul used it in his letter to Timothy. I believe we have conflated the pre Paul (Earlier usage) & the post Paul (later Greek writings starting with the early gnostics around 100AD) that has caused much confusion over the ages... it is critical we differentiate between before Paul & after Paul.
Authentein then morphed, as a result of the gnostic using the 'Authente" root in their writings, over the next 300 years so that by400 AD, Jerome used the Latin "dominare" in the Latin Vulgate... then in early 1500s Erasmus used "usurp authority"... authentein kept getting less & less negative over the ages & now we have a neutral general authority... but Paul would have most likely been familiar with the use of the authente root word in the Septuagint as a violent form of complete power over someone who had NO power ie young children.
that's just the tip of the iceberg... the research is fascinating but also heartbreaking as it seems some very, very rare Greek words have been misunderstood regarding women & we are still struggling with the impact of this!
FYI on Hecate, she was known as the Crone goddess of WITCHCRAFT & CHILDBIRTH (1 Tim 2:15)... one of her symbols was a cauldron... her altar/idol was in the temple of artemis in ephesus (artemis was also known as a goddess of childbirth).. Everything You Need To Know About Hecate (Maiden, Mother, Crone) (thecollector.com)
I have never, ever heard or read anyone mention hecate in the context of 1 Tim & Ephesus... but there are some very rare Greek words that indicate Paul is referring to her as the crone in 1 tim 4:7 & again in 5:13 along with numerous other references to satanic beliefs (ie doctrines of demons, throne of satan, synagogue of satan, secrets of satan, etc). in Ephesus/Asia Minor..
& here's the portion from Septuagint's Wisdom 12... that parallels the cultural context Paul & Timothy are dealing with in Ephesus...
For it was thy will to destroy by the hands of our fathers both those old inhabitants of thy holy land,
4Whom thou hatedst for doing most odious works of witchcrafts, and wicked sacrifices;
5And also those merciless murderers of children, and devourers of man's flesh, and the feasts of blood,
6With their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands souls destitute of help:
WISDOM OF SOLOMON CHAPTER 12 KJV (kingjamesbibleonline.org)
murder is definitely on Paul's mind in 1 Timothy... he mentions 3 very specific type of murders in 1 Tim 1:9-10, each is a hapax legomenon like authentein.
Thoughts? Can we move this to it's own discussion post? (YUP, it happened! Here we are!) where can we have this discussion? since the women as pastors came up for various reasons, I think it's important that we take another hard look at 1 Timothy & other scriptures that have been used to limit women serving in various ways...
the family of God is not about authority over anyone (per Jesus in Matt 20 & Peter in 1 Peter 5 ), it's about how we love/serve one another by character. & example through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
anyways, some food for thought from a bit of my research on 1 Timothy & Ephesus
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.