I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
The following response includes more discussion on 1 Timothy 2:11-12, addressing Rob's 3rd hesitation...
read as you have time & space to process... be a Berean, test everything!
before 2018, I was oblivious to much of this information for various reasons, partly because I never heard it in church or came across it in my CRC readings. If there is anything on this in the CRC context, I am interested in listening to or reading it!
Per Rob's response: Thirdly, Paul says women must "learn quietly" (v. 11). The biblical context for v. 12's authentein is v. 11's "learn quietly." So, authentein doesn't seem to be contrasted with witchcraft, but with learning in an outspoken way. EOQ
I wonder if the learn quietly (hésuchia) has to do with the teaching/didaskein based on 1 Tim 1:3&7? Paul commands Timothy to give this woman an opportunity to learn her new faith before she is permitted to teach, otherwise her teaching included false teaching/doctrines, possibly ones that came from myths/fables (god & goddess worship) & endless geneologies (1 Tim 1:3-4,6-7) that were part of her former cultic beliefs. It's possible that she had been (false?) teaching in a domineering & forceful way similar to how things were possibly taught in the cults (I haven't done a lot of research on the teaching in cults but have come across a bit that implied it was loud & domineering - interestingly, I have come across that one of the more common meanings of hecate is: makes her will dominate/ prevail).
I believe Paul had a certain woman in mind, along with a few other people based when he wrote "certain people" in 1 Tim 1:3 that also probably included the men named in 1 Tim 1:20. For whatever reason, the 1984 NIV says "certain men" in 1 Tim 1:3, where most translations use a gender inclusive term/phrase here, which seems to be more accurate based on the Greek.
Another reason why I believe this is a specific woman is one of the very interesting things in v11-12 is that Paul switched from using plural women in v 9-10 to singular woman in 11-12. Now, I've been told that I'm making way too much out of a difference of 1 letter. Maybe... but the difference might be between 1 person & half of the Kingdom Church. Why would Paul do this? If we believe it's through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we cannot ignore this switch.
It's possible that Paul is thinking of a very specific woman that might have been one of the many new converts from the Artemis, etal cults (Acts 19) who possibly served as a priestess on behalf of Artemis &/or other goddesses. So, her attempts at teaching (referred to in v12) could include beliefs & practices from her former life (support for this includes the doctrines of demons aka witchcraft in 1 Tim 4:1, along w millions of $ worth of magic/sorcery scrolls burned in Acts 19:19 that many of the new converts destroyed), teaching things when she doesn't know what she's talking about (1v7) as a new believer & she needs to learn more about her new faith with a calm and cooperative attitude before she can teach.
This whole section v8-15 is a point-by-point corrective of certain beliefs/practices that were associated with the gods/goddesses, especially, but not exclusively, Artemis. This passage is part of the chapter that has been titled instructions on worship, but it is not limited to worship. It's a collective list of various correctives of problems that Timothy is dealing with. This becomes more apparent when we understand how Artemis, etal were worshipped at the time, especially when we look at v15 & childbearing! Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 667 (tufts.edu) A verse that over the years, many theologians have struggled with how to interpret. None of the commentaries that I have read so far, say anything about the goddesses as guardians of childbirth. If I missed it, let me know! here's an extensive sampling! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (biblehub.com)
I love that v 11 includes the only command in this passage to "let a woman learn"! I am brought to tears just thinking about how revolutionary this was in that culture and time, how gracious it was to this woman who was possibly part of the problem of bad teaching in 1 Tim 1:3&7! Even now, this is an amazing command for ALL women, as I think about the women in Afghanistan who have been banned from university & any education beyond elementary, that is going on even today, when I read about patriarchal parents who do not encourage (& sometimes strongly discourage) their daughters from going to university. These limitations for women learning break my heart, especially when to "let a woman learn" is the command that is given to Timothy, as God's Holy Word.
Looking at the various translations of v11, some seem to emphasize that the command is about a woman's (all womens'?) quietness/silence & submission/subjection instead of learning. Why did some versions use "silence" instead of "quietness" & calm as the Greek word implies? It's best for everyone, women & men, to learn with a calmness & quietness, that's not just for women, it's part of the fruit of the Spirit.
Cognate: 2271hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ)
So what is the universal message of v11? that all should have opportunities to learn & grow in our faith, especially for those new in the faith, that we ALL should learn in quietness & cooperation with those who are more mature & experienced in the faith, being open to teachings, revelations, etc that others share with us. Does this mean we never question or use discernment when we are learning? Of course not, we are all called to test everything... that needs to be taught as well! The Bereans were a noble people who searched the scriptures after they heard Paul preach. May we do the same!
We can have an entire discussion on the use of "silence" by the KJVs & how that has limited women over the years & even still today is impacting the Kingdom Church, but I will skip that for now... it's part of a discussion on 1 Cor 14:33-35 & women being allowed to speak or not in church gatherings.
I will share my research on "hupotage" in the next comment!
my apologies if this seems to be a firehose of information... it's been a profound, but also painful, journey of discovery for me as I come across information that as far as I'm aware, has not been a significant part of the discussion if mentioned at all (ie the v15 childbearing & the goddesses as guardians watching over the women during childbirth so they would not die). How did we miss this for so long? or am I so far off base/deceived with what I'm finding?
What I have found makes sense to me, I cannot ignore it, and I really appreciate when people honestly & humbly test what I share - thank you Rob!
My research includes so many different sources, including the original languages of Scripture. This is not a low view of scripture, or caving to modern culture, or rebelling & usurping authority as has been suggested by some who do not believe women are allowed to teach/preach/be in authority over men in the Church but refuse to engage with what I share... this is going back to the ancient paths/sources/texts/culture (& yes we can discuss "created order" at some point as that seems to have become the definitive basis for exclusively male pastors/elders in more recent years using 1 Tim 2:11-15 & ch 3 to justify it)...
Excerpt from comment on 2.1.24: So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare) EOQ
Alright got to the part where MW talks about Jerome & "dominari" & wow - was not expecting MW's conclusion of how he (& Al W) considers it positive & means "servant leadership"! That's a FIRST that I've heard that meaning! Feel free to prove me wrong if this is a common understanding from other sources besides Al W! Or maybe I am understanding it wrong? I've watched it a few times & read the words & am still in a bit of disbelief & will go through it down below!
I love that this is challenging me to keep digging deeper into the ancient languages! it is so amazing that I can pull up the parallel English & Latin translations on one screen & the Greek & English on another & within seconds find a passage that I want to compare!!!
So that's what we are going to look at today!!
@ about 6:23 MW starts looking at translations... around hour 7, MW shares a bit about how words can change over the time w each translation & a bit on how Erasmus ends up adding what MW says is an "illegitimate" "usurp" into the mix - I agree that authentein has quite an interesting & horrific history.. & agree to a point on Erasmus, the usurp is not there in the Greek at all, but Erasmus did pick up a negative vibe somewhere in his study on this verse & the meaning of authentein! I can't ignore that, & usurp was the best he could do with what he had at the time... authentein lost the murderous dynamic from Pre Paul, somewhere it lost the authoritarian vibe that seemed to be associated with it from Pre Paul at least through Jerome, & now w Erasmus, authentein lost the authoritarian dynamic while implying an illegitimate authority. The next step is general authority! if that's the case, then why did Paul use this very rare & strange word!
AL W & MWS believe that what Jerome meant with his use of "dominare" in 1 Tim 2:12 is servant leadership... & I agree with MW who says we can do better (then Erasmus) today bc we have better research today into the original languages (I have used that rationale with pastors/elders & have recd all kinds of less than supportive responses regarding translations!) so I'm going to use one of the research tools we now have to show that Jerome meant a domineering type of lording it over others, not servant leadership.
so lets go back to about 6:34 where authentein -> "dominari" has been often translated as "to domineer" and to "lord it over"...
Old Latin dominari - MW says authentein was not pejorative at the time in the 2nd century so therefore dominari must be positive or neutral... so per Al W dominari has a positive sense of simply rule, reign or govern & at 6:36:45-6:37:33 MW says ***1 "dominatur" is rules by SERVING (per usage on bottom of screen text) & dominor is consistent with SERVANT LEADERSHIP! WOW! ok, so me being me (gotta test this stuff!!!) I looked up "dominatur" & one response was it's not a latin word, but "dominator" is derived from "dominari"... another, this comes from "dominor" & is the action of domineering as lord & master as well as rule, reign & govern,which is what we are not supposed to do as brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ!
little bit of my personal journey as I'm pondering of what we are dealing with... My mind cannot compute how on one hand we say lording it over is a good positive thing when Jesus expressly forbids it? I have struggled with this as I have wrestled with abuses of power over the last 10 years! Bc this is how abuses of power happen & gives permission to authoritarian leadership yet call themselves "servant leaders"! Obey your leaders & submit to their authority bc they know what's best for you...! Right? Nope! Hebr 13:17 in the 1984 NIV is an entire discussion on its own w at least 10 red flags when we look at the Greek! But the 84 NIV seems to support that authoritarian type of leadership is a good thing.
12docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
Guess what, Jerome uses ***1 "dominatur" (remember that word from Al & MW's belief that it is positive?) when Jesus tells His disciples that they are NOT TO LORD IT OVER like the Gentiles do but Jerome DOES NOT use it for general authority or to exercise authority, where it seems he consistently uses the Latin potestatem for power/authority/exousia... so why would Jesus be telling His disciples NOT TO be servant leaders if that is what dominatur means? This is part of the confusion that is happening on both sides!
So what does Jerome use for a servant leader? the Latin "minister" in v26! The Latin "servus" in v27, & "ministrari/e in v28... see Matt 20:25-28Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - Matthew 20
*** 2 Domini, Domine, Domino, Dominus all refer to God/Jesus as the/our Lord! There are 9 uses of "Lord" in this chapter, Rom 16!
Guess what word is NOT in this chapter of Paul's co-laborers? There's quite a number of descriptions, but none that include any form of dominari other than referring to the Lord Himself! This chapter would be a great place to include dominari if it's about servant leadership!
there's more, but I have NO IDEA how Al & MW can say that dominari is meant to be positive &/or neutral & mean "servant leadership"... seems to be quite a bit of a stretch to me... especially when we look at other uses of domini words in the Vulgate!
(*** 2: I find it concerning that the Dutch & Scottish traditions have used domine over the last 400 years or so to refer to ordained ministers/pastors but that is another discussion).
we already looked at 1 Tim 2:12 & Matt 20:25-26... ok, here's a few more & see if these are positive or pejorative...
here's a fun one...
Acts 19:16 remember the sons of Sceva?
et insiliens homo in eos in quo erat daemonium pessimum et dominatus amborum invaluit contra eos ita ut nudi et vulnerati effugerent de domo illa
And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
nope, definitely not the type of servant leadership we want!
how about... I Peter 5:3
3 neque ut dominantes in cleris sed formae facti gregi et ex animo
Neither as lording it over the clergy but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart.
in this case again, lording it over doesn't seem to be a positive thing to do whether to the clergy or by the clergy...
I think it is a considerable speculative leap to say that Jerome used "dominari" with a positive or neutral sense! I believe Jerome was influenced by the Gnostic use of Dominari to mean absolute Divine Ruler... so it lost the violent/murderous aspect, but still kept the authoritarian dynamic!
At some point MW pointed out that one of the egals used despot along with autocrat when he's referring to M&M's info @5.51.10... this is a case where both sides are wrong... MW's response seems to be very nitpicky & the egal seems to be a bit sloppy, bc *** 3 despot is a synonym for autocrat (however notice the use of vulgar in M&M's note on the side)...
au·to·crat
[ˈôdəˌkrat, ˈädəˌkrat]
noun
a ruler who has absolute power:
"like many autocrats, Franco found the exercise of absolute power addictive"
So in conclusion at this point, it seems a bit ironic that MW is accusing Linda B of the same stuff re dominari being negative (@5:32-33) while he & Al Wolters are using similar tactics trying to make "dominari" mean a positive "servant leadership"!
This has been one of my big red flags from a few comps is the intense push to make "authentein" positive or neutral... but both sides are guilty to picking & choosing to varying extents. I try to include links to support what I share but cannot always find them again! This specific hapax legomenon has definitely generated A LOT of ink because a lot depends on what it means in the context of Ephesus/asia Minor during Paul's time!
Enough for this week, have a wonderful weekend with family, fellowship of the saints & worship!
A brief break from lots of words... I came across this video in my research for sources of authente type words... he also shares around 7:50 another possibility of the meaning "authentein"... (yup, there has been a lot of work on this specific word in the last 30-50 years!)
I had completely forgotten about the Ephesiaca document... this video shares why it has been largely ignored until the last 20 years or so due to erroneously dating of the Ephesiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus to a century or more post Paul... in 1996, it was determined it was written about 50AD... this 1st century contemporaneous document confirms the correctives that Paul is writes Timothy in 1 Tim 2... again, this is an example of the information that has come out post Synod 1996. @ 5 minutes, Gary talks about how teaching/learning happened in the temple of Artemis (I said I hadn't researched that part much, but I had heard this concept somewhere before, just didn't remember the details...)
ps... I do have the hupotage comment drafted... so you will see that later!
oh my!!! so far have watched about 6 -7 hours of the 11 hours (I've been sick, so this was something I could do to keep my mind off being tired & miserable)... now I know a bit of what others feel like reading my long posts... but there is so much to cover that is being brought to the table for the first time especially in the last 5 years or so on this!
here's a few more thoughts so far...
So I did watch the last hour of the 4.5 hour chapter on 1 Tim 2:12... this hour pretty much dealt with the "oude" word & I had mentioned this in a 12.26.23 response on Rob's #2 concern: Secondly, if Paul meant this word in such a negative way, why does he couple it with didasko (teach) which is a positive term throughout the Bible?
I agree with MW that Kostenberger makes a strong case that oude makes either both positive or both pejorative, however, I still believe they are both negative in this usage. I don't think it became considered commonly neutral/positive until the gnostics started using it to describe their all powerful divine being in the 2nd cent AD, but even then it could be considered negative bc the Gnostics believed their "authentia" was supreme over the Hebrew God, so BIG problem!
a bit disappointed with both sides, lots that needs further work recognizing most of this material has only recently come to the attentions of both sides - the pantheon of gods/goddesses in that region have been mostly ignored over the ages for a lot of reasons, including there was very little information that could be accessed until recently on how these cults impacted Ephesus & surrounding regions... This context of Artemis/Diana, etal (& to make it even more confusing there are some significant differences b/t Artemis of the Ephesians & several variations of the Greek Artemis aka Roman Diana aka Egyptian Isis aka Persian asherah aka OT Queen of heaven are all different culture's manifestations of a fertility type goddess), the specifics of these cults have really only started to be researched, with exception of the Kroeger's 1992 Suffer not a Woman, in the last 20 years or so & probably most of it in the last 5 years or so with increased realization that Artemis is a significant aspect of the Ephesus culture, despite what MW has concluded (unfortunately the Kroeger's book was dismissed by scholars as bizarre & farfetched bc it dealt with bizarre & farfetched rituals of the mystery religions (aka witchcraft) that were secret... no one seems to want to touch that! Some egals are distancing themselves from any bizarre fertility rites (aka witchcraft!!!) going on in Ephesus region! Well, it does make one cringe as emasculation seems to have been part of the process for some of the male priests of some of the goddesses like cybele & it seems like she had an altar/statue in the temple of Artemis...
MW right away dismisses the negative uses of authentein for a variety of reasons & some of his reasons don't make sense. Like well, men shouldn't teach false doctrine (or murder) either, so that can't be what authentein means, since that doesn't just apply to women, all the while ignoring that Paul switched from plural women to singular woman, yet seems to believe whatever the prohibition is should be applied to only women!
so far, did not see any mention of the Gnostic influence as one of the false teachings being spread in Ephesus... also did not hear any reason why Paul/Holy Spirit would have chosen authentein, which is such a rare word, if he really intended a general authority. He would have known authentein would probably have been kind of shocking to those who heard it. Using this here for exercise authority doesn't make sense even if it was just becoming common at the time, instead of exousia or kurieous, words that were common & had already been used by Paul in other letters.
At about 6:02 MW notes that Clement with his classical background, uses both negative & positive uses of authentes bc he would have known both attic & koine Greek, why can't we use the same logic for Paul for those who think it had a positive common meaning at the time?!? Paul most likely also had a classical background & was a complex intellectual, he knew & possibly quoted the Wisdom of Solomon in Romans 1. There are a number of significant aspects that still have not been addressed... granted I have about 4 -5 more hours to watch
MW addresses artemis of the ephesians to a point & completely missed that the Greek word tx as busybodies in 1 Tim 5:13 is the same Greek word for workers of magic in Acts 19.. No reference at all to hecate who I believe is also alluded to in 1 Tim as the crone goddess of witchcraft. Cybele is another significant influence that had very bizarre & bloody rituals. MW mockingly dismisses "murders" as any possible meaning of authentein even though just a few paragraphs earlier he specifies 2 kin murders, manslayer & refers to himself as violent (I think most probably knew he was also guilty of murder via persecution!). as one fairly well known egal that MW mentions said to me "murder was definitely not on Paul's mind"... I disagreed & said "murder definitely was on Paul's mind"... based on chapter 1!
Bees are somehow part of the cult of Artemis of the Ephesians,. Those who mate w queen bees die in a gruesome way.... the "regalia" of Artemis of the Ephesians has significant meanings that we have barely looked at. I think Clinton Arnold was very uncomfortable thinking about the possibilities of what those strange large eggshaped objects on Artemis are!
These cultic practices were secret for millenial, there's a reason many cults are connected with "mystery religions". I believe there was a 2nd temple of Artemis close to Ephesus that was specifically for where the mystery rites were practiced. Rev 2 talks about the deep things of satan aka mystery rituals. Evidence of spells & curses have been found in Western Asia Minor including re poisoning husbands.
So there are still other considerable aspects of the culture that need to to be looked at. around the turn of the era, there was a syncretism of judaism + sorcery + astrology => secret knowledge aka mystery religions... later Christianity was added into the mix, this eventually developed into what we now call gnosticism. the Gnostics co-opted the use of "authentes"... this very likely influenced how early church fathers, including Jerome understood it.
the myths & geneologies (1 Tim 1:3) of the cults & the gnostics are pretty bizarre with probably more overlap than we know bc of the secret mysteries associated with them both... it gets into the essenes (started 2nd BCE), the naassenes & their snake worship venerating satan in the garden bc the serpent gave humans, specifically EVE, the key to KNOWLEDGE! The creation story gets blasphemously twisted by the gnostics & some of their ideas seem to have started in the 1st cent BC. probably not your typical SS class!!!
The following is evidence of the gnostics (Cerinthus was considered an early gnostic, part of the Simonian school - yes that Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8) being a problem in Ephesus at the time of the Apostles....Here's an encounter of the Apostle John at a bathhouse in EPHESUS per Irenaeus as told to him by Polycarp his mentor who was a student of John...
In Asia, early Christian writers identify Cerinthus as an adversary of the Apostle John. According to Irenaeus, his teacher Polycarp, himself a student of John,[15] told the story that John rushed out of a bathhouse at Ephesus without bathing when he found out Cerinthus was inside, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is inside!"[16][17] Irenaeus also relates that John sought by proclamation of his gospel "to remove that error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men".[18]Cerinthus - Wikipedia
Hope you found it a bit enlightening & entertaining! Against Heresies by Irenaeus is something that might need to be read to better understand the gnostics... The gnostic writings found in 1945 added a new dimension to this discussion in the last several decades as their translations did not become released into the broader public until the late 80s & gradually became a part of the general academic discussion over the next few decades. Again, after the 1995-1996 synod decision re women.
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
3956pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
Every so often, it might be a good thing to consider reading Martin Luther King Jr.'s letter that he wrote to white pastors in 1963, that MLK wrote from a Birmingham jail after he was arrested for participating in a non-violent protest...
interestingly, in 2020, we hear similar pious sounding excuses to justify silence in the face of injustice, that MLK heard back in the 60s... just change the name of the city...
some food for thought...
2 excerpts from MLK's letter:
Excerpt #1
You deplore the demonstrations that are presently taking place in Birmingham. But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being. I am sure that each of you would want to go beyond the superficial social analyst who looks merely at effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. I would not hesitate to say that it is unfortunate that so-called demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham at this time, but I would say in more emphatic terms that it is even more unfortunate that the white power structure of this city left the Negro community with no other alternative...
excerpt #2
I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. EOQ
I have been sharing the scriptural principle of "one another"... the Greek word Allelon (one another) is used 100x in the new testament, 59 of those times are commands, and 16 of those commands are to "love one another"... "one another" is a positive way to say "anti racism"...
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
The following response includes more discussion on 1 Timothy 2:11-12, addressing Rob's 3rd hesitation...
read as you have time & space to process... be a Berean, test everything!
before 2018, I was oblivious to much of this information for various reasons, partly because I never heard it in church or came across it in my CRC readings. If there is anything on this in the CRC context, I am interested in listening to or reading it!
Per Rob's response: Thirdly, Paul says women must "learn quietly" (v. 11). The biblical context for v. 12's authentein is v. 11's "learn quietly." So, authentein doesn't seem to be contrasted with witchcraft, but with learning in an outspoken way. EOQ
I wonder if the learn quietly (hésuchia) has to do with the teaching/didaskein based on 1 Tim 1:3&7? Paul commands Timothy to give this woman an opportunity to learn her new faith before she is permitted to teach, otherwise her teaching included false teaching/doctrines, possibly ones that came from myths/fables (god & goddess worship) & endless geneologies (1 Tim 1:3-4,6-7) that were part of her former cultic beliefs. It's possible that she had been (false?) teaching in a domineering & forceful way similar to how things were possibly taught in the cults (I haven't done a lot of research on the teaching in cults but have come across a bit that implied it was loud & domineering - interestingly, I have come across that one of the more common meanings of hecate is: makes her will dominate/ prevail).
I believe Paul had a certain woman in mind, along with a few other people based when he wrote "certain people" in 1 Tim 1:3 that also probably included the men named in 1 Tim 1:20. For whatever reason, the 1984 NIV says "certain men" in 1 Tim 1:3, where most translations use a gender inclusive term/phrase here, which seems to be more accurate based on the Greek.
Another reason why I believe this is a specific woman is one of the very interesting things in v11-12 is that Paul switched from using plural women in v 9-10 to singular woman in 11-12. Now, I've been told that I'm making way too much out of a difference of 1 letter. Maybe... but the difference might be between 1 person & half of the Kingdom Church. Why would Paul do this? If we believe it's through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we cannot ignore this switch.
It's possible that Paul is thinking of a very specific woman that might have been one of the many new converts from the Artemis, etal cults (Acts 19) who possibly served as a priestess on behalf of Artemis &/or other goddesses. So, her attempts at teaching (referred to in v12) could include beliefs & practices from her former life (support for this includes the doctrines of demons aka witchcraft in 1 Tim 4:1, along w millions of $ worth of magic/sorcery scrolls burned in Acts 19:19 that many of the new converts destroyed), teaching things when she doesn't know what she's talking about (1v7) as a new believer & she needs to learn more about her new faith with a calm and cooperative attitude before she can teach.
This whole section v8-15 is a point-by-point corrective of certain beliefs/practices that were associated with the gods/goddesses, especially, but not exclusively, Artemis. This passage is part of the chapter that has been titled instructions on worship, but it is not limited to worship. It's a collective list of various correctives of problems that Timothy is dealing with. This becomes more apparent when we understand how Artemis, etal were worshipped at the time, especially when we look at v15 & childbearing! Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 667 (tufts.edu) A verse that over the years, many theologians have struggled with how to interpret. None of the commentaries that I have read so far, say anything about the goddesses as guardians of childbirth. If I missed it, let me know! here's an extensive sampling! 1 Timothy 2:15 Commentaries: But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. (biblehub.com)
I love that v 11 includes the only command in this passage to "let a woman learn"! I am brought to tears just thinking about how revolutionary this was in that culture and time, how gracious it was to this woman who was possibly part of the problem of bad teaching in 1 Tim 1:3&7! Even now, this is an amazing command for ALL women, as I think about the women in Afghanistan who have been banned from university & any education beyond elementary, that is going on even today, when I read about patriarchal parents who do not encourage (& sometimes strongly discourage) their daughters from going to university. These limitations for women learning break my heart, especially when to "let a woman learn" is the command that is given to Timothy, as God's Holy Word.
Looking at the various translations of v11, some seem to emphasize that the command is about a woman's (all womens'?) quietness/silence & submission/subjection instead of learning. Why did some versions use "silence" instead of "quietness" & calm as the Greek word implies? It's best for everyone, women & men, to learn with a calmness & quietness, that's not just for women, it's part of the fruit of the Spirit.
Strong's Greek: 2271. ἡσυχία (hésuchia) -- stillness (biblehub.com)
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ)
So what is the universal message of v11? that all should have opportunities to learn & grow in our faith, especially for those new in the faith, that we ALL should learn in quietness & cooperation with those who are more mature & experienced in the faith, being open to teachings, revelations, etc that others share with us. Does this mean we never question or use discernment when we are learning? Of course not, we are all called to test everything... that needs to be taught as well! The Bereans were a noble people who searched the scriptures after they heard Paul preach. May we do the same!
We can have an entire discussion on the use of "silence" by the KJVs & how that has limited women over the years & even still today is impacting the Kingdom Church, but I will skip that for now... it's part of a discussion on 1 Cor 14:33-35 & women being allowed to speak or not in church gatherings.
I will share my research on "hupotage" in the next comment!
my apologies if this seems to be a firehose of information... it's been a profound, but also painful, journey of discovery for me as I come across information that as far as I'm aware, has not been a significant part of the discussion if mentioned at all (ie the v15 childbearing & the goddesses as guardians watching over the women during childbirth so they would not die). How did we miss this for so long? or am I so far off base/deceived with what I'm finding?
What I have found makes sense to me, I cannot ignore it, and I really appreciate when people honestly & humbly test what I share - thank you Rob!
My research includes so many different sources, including the original languages of Scripture. This is not a low view of scripture, or caving to modern culture, or rebelling & usurping authority as has been suggested by some who do not believe women are allowed to teach/preach/be in authority over men in the Church but refuse to engage with what I share... this is going back to the ancient paths/sources/texts/culture (& yes we can discuss "created order" at some point as that seems to have become the definitive basis for exclusively male pastors/elders in more recent years using 1 Tim 2:11-15 & ch 3 to justify it)...
Jeremiah 6:16a This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look. Ask for the ancient paths: 'Where is the good way?'...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Excerpt from comment on 2.1.24: So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare) EOQ
Alright got to the part where MW talks about Jerome & "dominari" & wow - was not expecting MW's conclusion of how he (& Al W) considers it positive & means "servant leadership"! That's a FIRST that I've heard that meaning! Feel free to prove me wrong if this is a common understanding from other sources besides Al W! Or maybe I am understanding it wrong? I've watched it a few times & read the words & am still in a bit of disbelief & will go through it down below!
I love that this is challenging me to keep digging deeper into the ancient languages! it is so amazing that I can pull up the parallel English & Latin translations on one screen & the Greek & English on another & within seconds find a passage that I want to compare!!!
So that's what we are going to look at today!!
@ about 6:23 MW starts looking at translations... around hour 7, MW shares a bit about how words can change over the time w each translation & a bit on how Erasmus ends up adding what MW says is an "illegitimate" "usurp" into the mix - I agree that authentein has quite an interesting & horrific history.. & agree to a point on Erasmus, the usurp is not there in the Greek at all, but Erasmus did pick up a negative vibe somewhere in his study on this verse & the meaning of authentein! I can't ignore that, & usurp was the best he could do with what he had at the time... authentein lost the murderous dynamic from Pre Paul, somewhere it lost the authoritarian vibe that seemed to be associated with it from Pre Paul at least through Jerome, & now w Erasmus, authentein lost the authoritarian dynamic while implying an illegitimate authority. The next step is general authority! if that's the case, then why did Paul use this very rare & strange word!
AL W & MWS believe that what Jerome meant with his use of "dominare" in 1 Tim 2:12 is servant leadership... & I agree with MW who says we can do better (then Erasmus) today bc we have better research today into the original languages (I have used that rationale with pastors/elders & have recd all kinds of less than supportive responses regarding translations!) so I'm going to use one of the research tools we now have to show that Jerome meant a domineering type of lording it over others, not servant leadership.
so lets go back to about 6:34 where authentein -> "dominari" has been often translated as "to domineer" and to "lord it over"...
Old Latin dominari - MW says authentein was not pejorative at the time in the 2nd century so therefore dominari must be positive or neutral... so per Al W dominari has a positive sense of simply rule, reign or govern & at 6:36:45-6:37:33 MW says ***1 "dominatur" is rules by SERVING (per usage on bottom of screen text) & dominor is consistent with SERVANT LEADERSHIP! WOW! ok, so me being me (gotta test this stuff!!!) I looked up "dominatur" & one response was it's not a latin word, but "dominator" is derived from "dominari"... another, this comes from "dominor" & is the action of domineering as lord & master as well as rule, reign & govern,which is what we are not supposed to do as brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ!
little bit of my personal journey as I'm pondering of what we are dealing with... My mind cannot compute how on one hand we say lording it over is a good positive thing when Jesus expressly forbids it? I have struggled with this as I have wrestled with abuses of power over the last 10 years! Bc this is how abuses of power happen & gives permission to authoritarian leadership yet call themselves "servant leaders"! Obey your leaders & submit to their authority bc they know what's best for you...! Right? Nope! Hebr 13:17 in the 1984 NIV is an entire discussion on its own w at least 10 red flags when we look at the Greek! But the 84 NIV seems to support that authoritarian type of leadership is a good thing.
Back to word study on the domini family...
dominatur (Latin): meaning, synonyms - WordSense
dominor
dominor, dominaris, dominari A, dominatus sum (Dep.) - Latin is Simple Online Dictionary (latin-is-simple.com)
Now, let's look at where Jerome himself uses & does not use the domini family of words!!!
Here is the Latin/english for 1 Tim 2:12 Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - First Epistle of Paul to Timothy 2
12docere autem mulieri non permitto neque dominari in virum sed esse in silentio
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.
Guess what, Jerome uses ***1 "dominatur" (remember that word from Al & MW's belief that it is positive?) when Jesus tells His disciples that they are NOT TO LORD IT OVER like the Gentiles do but Jerome DOES NOT use it for general authority or to exercise authority, where it seems he consistently uses the Latin potestatem for power/authority/exousia... so why would Jesus be telling His disciples NOT TO be servant leaders if that is what dominatur means? This is part of the confusion that is happening on both sides!
So what does Jerome use for a servant leader? the Latin "minister" in v26! The Latin "servus" in v27, & "ministrari/e in v28... see Matt 20:25-28Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - Matthew 20
Latin Vulgate New Testament Bible - Epistle of Paul to the Romans 16 see v1 for Phoebe being in ministry, sometimes tx as deacon (ie 2011 NIV, NLT), but often tx as servant in a # of English versions such as 1984 NIV, ESV & KJVs...
*** 2 Domini, Domine, Domino, Dominus all refer to God/Jesus as the/our Lord! There are 9 uses of "Lord" in this chapter, Rom 16!
Guess what word is NOT in this chapter of Paul's co-laborers? There's quite a number of descriptions, but none that include any form of dominari other than referring to the Lord Himself! This chapter would be a great place to include dominari if it's about servant leadership!
there's more, but I have NO IDEA how Al & MW can say that dominari is meant to be positive &/or neutral & mean "servant leadership"... seems to be quite a bit of a stretch to me... especially when we look at other uses of domini words in the Vulgate!
(*** 2: I find it concerning that the Dutch & Scottish traditions have used domine over the last 400 years or so to refer to ordained ministers/pastors but that is another discussion).
we already looked at 1 Tim 2:12 & Matt 20:25-26... ok, here's a few more & see if these are positive or pejorative...
here's a fun one...
Acts 19:16 remember the sons of Sceva?
et insiliens homo in eos in quo erat daemonium pessimum et dominatus amborum invaluit contra eos ita ut nudi et vulnerati effugerent de domo illa
And the man in whom the wicked spirit was, leaping upon them and mastering them both, prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
nope, definitely not the type of servant leadership we want!
how about... I Peter 5:3
3 neque ut dominantes in cleris sed formae facti gregi et ex animo
Neither as lording it over the clergy but being made a pattern of the flock from the heart.
in this case again, lording it over doesn't seem to be a positive thing to do whether to the clergy or by the clergy...
I think it is a considerable speculative leap to say that Jerome used "dominari" with a positive or neutral sense! I believe Jerome was influenced by the Gnostic use of Dominari to mean absolute Divine Ruler... so it lost the violent/murderous aspect, but still kept the authoritarian dynamic!
At some point MW pointed out that one of the egals used despot along with autocrat when he's referring to M&M's info @5.51.10... this is a case where both sides are wrong... MW's response seems to be very nitpicky & the egal seems to be a bit sloppy, bc *** 3 despot is a synonym for autocrat (however notice the use of vulgar in M&M's note on the side)...
au·to·crat
[ˈôdəˌkrat, ˈädəˌkrat]
noun
a ruler who has absolute power:
"like many autocrats, Franco found the exercise of absolute power addictive"
Similar:
dictator
*** 3 despot
tyrant
monocrat
authoritarian
absolutist
absolute ruler
these seem pretty negative to me!
So in conclusion at this point, it seems a bit ironic that MW is accusing Linda B of the same stuff re dominari being negative (@5:32-33) while he & Al Wolters are using similar tactics trying to make "dominari" mean a positive "servant leadership"!
This has been one of my big red flags from a few comps is the intense push to make "authentein" positive or neutral... but both sides are guilty to picking & choosing to varying extents. I try to include links to support what I share but cannot always find them again! This specific hapax legomenon has definitely generated A LOT of ink because a lot depends on what it means in the context of Ephesus/asia Minor during Paul's time!
Enough for this week, have a wonderful weekend with family, fellowship of the saints & worship!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
A brief break from lots of words... I came across this video in my research for sources of authente type words... he also shares around 7:50 another possibility of the meaning "authentein"... (yup, there has been a lot of work on this specific word in the last 30-50 years!)
(755) Why Women Must Learn in Quietness and Submission: Xenophon of Ephesus and 1 Timothy 2 (Gary Hoag) - YouTube
I had completely forgotten about the Ephesiaca document... this video shares why it has been largely ignored until the last 20 years or so due to erroneously dating of the Ephesiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus to a century or more post Paul... in 1996, it was determined it was written about 50AD... this 1st century contemporaneous document confirms the correctives that Paul is writes Timothy in 1 Tim 2... again, this is an example of the information that has come out post Synod 1996. @ 5 minutes, Gary talks about how teaching/learning happened in the temple of Artemis (I said I hadn't researched that part much, but I had heard this concept somewhere before, just didn't remember the details...)
ps... I do have the hupotage comment drafted... so you will see that later!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh my!!! so far have watched about 6 -7 hours of the 11 hours (I've been sick, so this was something I could do to keep my mind off being tired & miserable)... now I know a bit of what others feel like reading my long posts... but there is so much to cover that is being brought to the table for the first time especially in the last 5 years or so on this!
here's a few more thoughts so far...
So I did watch the last hour of the 4.5 hour chapter on 1 Tim 2:12... this hour pretty much dealt with the "oude" word & I had mentioned this in a 12.26.23 response on Rob's #2 concern: Secondly, if Paul meant this word in such a negative way, why does he couple it with didasko (teach) which is a positive term throughout the Bible?
I agree with MW that Kostenberger makes a strong case that oude makes either both positive or both pejorative, however, I still believe they are both negative in this usage. I don't think it became considered commonly neutral/positive until the gnostics started using it to describe their all powerful divine being in the 2nd cent AD, but even then it could be considered negative bc the Gnostics believed their "authentia" was supreme over the Hebrew God, so BIG problem!
a bit disappointed with both sides, lots that needs further work recognizing most of this material has only recently come to the attentions of both sides - the pantheon of gods/goddesses in that region have been mostly ignored over the ages for a lot of reasons, including there was very little information that could be accessed until recently on how these cults impacted Ephesus & surrounding regions... This context of Artemis/Diana, etal (& to make it even more confusing there are some significant differences b/t Artemis of the Ephesians & several variations of the Greek Artemis aka Roman Diana aka Egyptian Isis aka Persian asherah aka OT Queen of heaven are all different culture's manifestations of a fertility type goddess), the specifics of these cults have really only started to be researched, with exception of the Kroeger's 1992 Suffer not a Woman, in the last 20 years or so & probably most of it in the last 5 years or so with increased realization that Artemis is a significant aspect of the Ephesus culture, despite what MW has concluded (unfortunately the Kroeger's book was dismissed by scholars as bizarre & farfetched bc it dealt with bizarre & farfetched rituals of the mystery religions (aka witchcraft) that were secret... no one seems to want to touch that! Some egals are distancing themselves from any bizarre fertility rites (aka witchcraft!!!) going on in Ephesus region! Well, it does make one cringe as emasculation seems to have been part of the process for some of the male priests of some of the goddesses like cybele & it seems like she had an altar/statue in the temple of Artemis...
MW right away dismisses the negative uses of authentein for a variety of reasons & some of his reasons don't make sense. Like well, men shouldn't teach false doctrine (or murder) either, so that can't be what authentein means, since that doesn't just apply to women, all the while ignoring that Paul switched from plural women to singular woman, yet seems to believe whatever the prohibition is should be applied to only women!
even 6-7 hours of MW's work has a lot of information that needs to be looked at. I haven't watched any of his other videos, but I know others have responded to his earlier videos... What Winger Presently Gets Wrong: The Head Covering Debates (1 Cor 11) - Terran Williams
& they haven't had time to process these 11 hours yet A First Response to Mike Winger’s 11½ Hrs Video on 1 Timothy 2 - Terran Williams
so far, did not see any mention of the Gnostic influence as one of the false teachings being spread in Ephesus... also did not hear any reason why Paul/Holy Spirit would have chosen authentein, which is such a rare word, if he really intended a general authority. He would have known authentein would probably have been kind of shocking to those who heard it. Using this here for exercise authority doesn't make sense even if it was just becoming common at the time, instead of exousia or kurieous, words that were common & had already been used by Paul in other letters.
At about 6:02 MW notes that Clement with his classical background, uses both negative & positive uses of authentes bc he would have known both attic & koine Greek, why can't we use the same logic for Paul for those who think it had a positive common meaning at the time?!? Paul most likely also had a classical background & was a complex intellectual, he knew & possibly quoted the Wisdom of Solomon in Romans 1. There are a number of significant aspects that still have not been addressed... granted I have about 4 -5 more hours to watch
MW addresses artemis of the ephesians to a point & completely missed that the Greek word tx as busybodies in 1 Tim 5:13 is the same Greek word for workers of magic in Acts 19.. No reference at all to hecate who I believe is also alluded to in 1 Tim as the crone goddess of witchcraft. Cybele is another significant influence that had very bizarre & bloody rituals. MW mockingly dismisses "murders" as any possible meaning of authentein even though just a few paragraphs earlier he specifies 2 kin murders, manslayer & refers to himself as violent (I think most probably knew he was also guilty of murder via persecution!). as one fairly well known egal that MW mentions said to me "murder was definitely not on Paul's mind"... I disagreed & said "murder definitely was on Paul's mind"... based on chapter 1!
Bees are somehow part of the cult of Artemis of the Ephesians,. Those who mate w queen bees die in a gruesome way.... the "regalia" of Artemis of the Ephesians has significant meanings that we have barely looked at. I think Clinton Arnold was very uncomfortable thinking about the possibilities of what those strange large eggshaped objects on Artemis are!
These cultic practices were secret for millenial, there's a reason many cults are connected with "mystery religions". I believe there was a 2nd temple of Artemis close to Ephesus that was specifically for where the mystery rites were practiced. Rev 2 talks about the deep things of satan aka mystery rituals. Evidence of spells & curses have been found in Western Asia Minor including re poisoning husbands.
So there are still other considerable aspects of the culture that need to to be looked at. around the turn of the era, there was a syncretism of judaism + sorcery + astrology => secret knowledge aka mystery religions... later Christianity was added into the mix, this eventually developed into what we now call gnosticism. the Gnostics co-opted the use of "authentes"... this very likely influenced how early church fathers, including Jerome understood it.
the myths & geneologies (1 Tim 1:3) of the cults & the gnostics are pretty bizarre with probably more overlap than we know bc of the secret mysteries associated with them both... it gets into the essenes (started 2nd BCE), the naassenes & their snake worship venerating satan in the garden bc the serpent gave humans, specifically EVE, the key to KNOWLEDGE! The creation story gets blasphemously twisted by the gnostics & some of their ideas seem to have started in the 1st cent BC. probably not your typical SS class!!!
The following is evidence of the gnostics (Cerinthus was considered an early gnostic, part of the Simonian school - yes that Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8) being a problem in Ephesus at the time of the Apostles....Here's an encounter of the Apostle John at a bathhouse in EPHESUS per Irenaeus as told to him by Polycarp his mentor who was a student of John...
In Asia, early Christian writers identify Cerinthus as an adversary of the Apostle John. According to Irenaeus, his teacher Polycarp, himself a student of John,[15] told the story that John rushed out of a bathhouse at Ephesus without bathing when he found out Cerinthus was inside, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is inside!"[16][17] Irenaeus also relates that John sought by proclamation of his gospel "to remove that error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men".[18] Cerinthus - Wikipedia
Hope you found it a bit enlightening & entertaining! Against Heresies by Irenaeus is something that might need to be read to better understand the gnostics... The gnostic writings found in 1945 added a new dimension to this discussion in the last several decades as their translations did not become released into the broader public until the late 80s & gradually became a part of the general academic discussion over the next few decades. Again, after the 1995-1996 synod decision re women.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS) (biblestudytools.com)
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Strong's Hebrew: 7440. רִנָּה (rinnah) -- a ringing cry (biblehub.com)
What Exactly is High Praise? | CRC Network (crcna.org)
Please join me in prayer for God's best for ALL! men, women, young, old, rich, poor, every tribe, tongue, people & nation! FOr our good & His glory!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 Astounded and amazed, they asked, "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? (biblehub.com) (Berean Standard Bible; click link for parallel translations)
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
here's the Greek... Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of...
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- this (biblehub.com)
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel. "He who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence," says the LORD of Hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith. (biblehub.com) Berean Standard Bible
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
*** Strong's Hebrew: 898. בָּגַד (bagad) -- to act or deal treacherously (biblehub.com)
***this word includes so much more than just being adulterous/unfaithful...
acted deceitfully (1), acted treacherously (2), betrayed (1), betrays (1), deal (1), deal treacherously (10), deal very treacherously (1), deals treacherously (1), dealt treacherously (8), dealt very treacherously (1), faithless (2), treacherous (15), treacherous one still deals treacherously (1), treacherous deal (1), treacherously (1), unfairness (1).
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Grounds for Divorce: Why I Now Believe There Are More Than Two - Wayne Grudem
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
Posted in: Statement About The Deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor
Every so often, it might be a good thing to consider reading Martin Luther King Jr.'s letter that he wrote to white pastors in 1963, that MLK wrote from a Birmingham jail after he was arrested for participating in a non-violent protest...
https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Letter_Birmingham_Jail.pdf
interestingly, in 2020, we hear similar pious sounding excuses to justify silence in the face of injustice, that MLK heard back in the 60s... just change the name of the city...
some food for thought...
2 excerpts from MLK's letter:
Excerpt #1
You deplore the demonstrations that are presently taking place in Birmingham. But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being. I am sure that each of you would want to go beyond the superficial social analyst who looks merely at effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. I would not hesitate to say that it is unfortunate that so-called demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham at this time, but I would say in more emphatic terms that it is even more unfortunate that the white power structure of this city left the Negro community with no other alternative...
excerpt #2
I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. EOQ
Posted in: Statement About The Deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor
I have been sharing the scriptural principle of "one another"... the Greek word Allelon (one another) is used 100x in the new testament, 59 of those times are commands, and 16 of those commands are to "love one another"... "one another" is a positive way to say "anti racism"...
https://www.mmlearn.org/hubfs/docs/OneAnotherPassages.pdf
blessings...
Posted in: Power: How Will We Use It?
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...