I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
A brief break from lots of words... I came across this video in my research for sources of authente type words... he also shares around 7:50 another possibility of the meaning "authentein"... (yup, there has been a lot of work on this specific word in the last 30-50 years!)
I had completely forgotten about the Ephesiaca document... this video shares why it has been largely ignored until the last 20 years or so due to erroneously dating of the Ephesiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus to a century or more post Paul... in 1996, it was determined it was written about 50AD... this 1st century contemporaneous document confirms the correctives that Paul is writes Timothy in 1 Tim 2... again, this is an example of the information that has come out post Synod 1996. @ 5 minutes, Gary talks about how teaching/learning happened in the temple of Artemis (I said I hadn't researched that part much, but I had heard this concept somewhere before, just didn't remember the details...)
ps... I do have the hupotage comment drafted... so you will see that later!
oh my!!! so far have watched about 6 -7 hours of the 11 hours (I've been sick, so this was something I could do to keep my mind off being tired & miserable)... now I know a bit of what others feel like reading my long posts... but there is so much to cover that is being brought to the table for the first time especially in the last 5 years or so on this!
here's a few more thoughts so far...
So I did watch the last hour of the 4.5 hour chapter on 1 Tim 2:12... this hour pretty much dealt with the "oude" word & I had mentioned this in a 12.26.23 response on Rob's #2 concern: Secondly, if Paul meant this word in such a negative way, why does he couple it with didasko (teach) which is a positive term throughout the Bible?
I agree with MW that Kostenberger makes a strong case that oude makes either both positive or both pejorative, however, I still believe they are both negative in this usage. I don't think it became considered commonly neutral/positive until the gnostics started using it to describe their all powerful divine being in the 2nd cent AD, but even then it could be considered negative bc the Gnostics believed their "authentia" was supreme over the Hebrew God, so BIG problem!
a bit disappointed with both sides, lots that needs further work recognizing most of this material has only recently come to the attentions of both sides - the pantheon of gods/goddesses in that region have been mostly ignored over the ages for a lot of reasons, including there was very little information that could be accessed until recently on how these cults impacted Ephesus & surrounding regions... This context of Artemis/Diana, etal (& to make it even more confusing there are some significant differences b/t Artemis of the Ephesians & several variations of the Greek Artemis aka Roman Diana aka Egyptian Isis aka Persian asherah aka OT Queen of heaven are all different culture's manifestations of a fertility type goddess), the specifics of these cults have really only started to be researched, with exception of the Kroeger's 1992 Suffer not a Woman, in the last 20 years or so & probably most of it in the last 5 years or so with increased realization that Artemis is a significant aspect of the Ephesus culture, despite what MW has concluded (unfortunately the Kroeger's book was dismissed by scholars as bizarre & farfetched bc it dealt with bizarre & farfetched rituals of the mystery religions (aka witchcraft) that were secret... no one seems to want to touch that! Some egals are distancing themselves from any bizarre fertility rites (aka witchcraft!!!) going on in Ephesus region! Well, it does make one cringe as emasculation seems to have been part of the process for some of the male priests of some of the goddesses like cybele & it seems like she had an altar/statue in the temple of Artemis...
MW right away dismisses the negative uses of authentein for a variety of reasons & some of his reasons don't make sense. Like well, men shouldn't teach false doctrine (or murder) either, so that can't be what authentein means, since that doesn't just apply to women, all the while ignoring that Paul switched from plural women to singular woman, yet seems to believe whatever the prohibition is should be applied to only women!
so far, did not see any mention of the Gnostic influence as one of the false teachings being spread in Ephesus... also did not hear any reason why Paul/Holy Spirit would have chosen authentein, which is such a rare word, if he really intended a general authority. He would have known authentein would probably have been kind of shocking to those who heard it. Using this here for exercise authority doesn't make sense even if it was just becoming common at the time, instead of exousia or kurieous, words that were common & had already been used by Paul in other letters.
At about 6:02 MW notes that Clement with his classical background, uses both negative & positive uses of authentes bc he would have known both attic & koine Greek, why can't we use the same logic for Paul for those who think it had a positive common meaning at the time?!? Paul most likely also had a classical background & was a complex intellectual, he knew & possibly quoted the Wisdom of Solomon in Romans 1. There are a number of significant aspects that still have not been addressed... granted I have about 4 -5 more hours to watch
MW addresses artemis of the ephesians to a point & completely missed that the Greek word tx as busybodies in 1 Tim 5:13 is the same Greek word for workers of magic in Acts 19.. No reference at all to hecate who I believe is also alluded to in 1 Tim as the crone goddess of witchcraft. Cybele is another significant influence that had very bizarre & bloody rituals. MW mockingly dismisses "murders" as any possible meaning of authentein even though just a few paragraphs earlier he specifies 2 kin murders, manslayer & refers to himself as violent (I think most probably knew he was also guilty of murder via persecution!). as one fairly well known egal that MW mentions said to me "murder was definitely not on Paul's mind"... I disagreed & said "murder definitely was on Paul's mind"... based on chapter 1!
Bees are somehow part of the cult of Artemis of the Ephesians,. Those who mate w queen bees die in a gruesome way.... the "regalia" of Artemis of the Ephesians has significant meanings that we have barely looked at. I think Clinton Arnold was very uncomfortable thinking about the possibilities of what those strange large eggshaped objects on Artemis are!
These cultic practices were secret for millenial, there's a reason many cults are connected with "mystery religions". I believe there was a 2nd temple of Artemis close to Ephesus that was specifically for where the mystery rites were practiced. Rev 2 talks about the deep things of satan aka mystery rituals. Evidence of spells & curses have been found in Western Asia Minor including re poisoning husbands.
So there are still other considerable aspects of the culture that need to to be looked at. around the turn of the era, there was a syncretism of judaism + sorcery + astrology => secret knowledge aka mystery religions... later Christianity was added into the mix, this eventually developed into what we now call gnosticism. the Gnostics co-opted the use of "authentes"... this very likely influenced how early church fathers, including Jerome understood it.
the myths & geneologies (1 Tim 1:3) of the cults & the gnostics are pretty bizarre with probably more overlap than we know bc of the secret mysteries associated with them both... it gets into the essenes (started 2nd BCE), the naassenes & their snake worship venerating satan in the garden bc the serpent gave humans, specifically EVE, the key to KNOWLEDGE! The creation story gets blasphemously twisted by the gnostics & some of their ideas seem to have started in the 1st cent BC. probably not your typical SS class!!!
The following is evidence of the gnostics (Cerinthus was considered an early gnostic, part of the Simonian school - yes that Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8) being a problem in Ephesus at the time of the Apostles....Here's an encounter of the Apostle John at a bathhouse in EPHESUS per Irenaeus as told to him by Polycarp his mentor who was a student of John...
In Asia, early Christian writers identify Cerinthus as an adversary of the Apostle John. According to Irenaeus, his teacher Polycarp, himself a student of John,[15] told the story that John rushed out of a bathhouse at Ephesus without bathing when he found out Cerinthus was inside, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is inside!"[16][17] Irenaeus also relates that John sought by proclamation of his gospel "to remove that error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men".[18]Cerinthus - Wikipedia
Hope you found it a bit enlightening & entertaining! Against Heresies by Irenaeus is something that might need to be read to better understand the gnostics... The gnostic writings found in 1945 added a new dimension to this discussion in the last several decades as their translations did not become released into the broader public until the late 80s & gradually became a part of the general academic discussion over the next few decades. Again, after the 1995-1996 synod decision re women.
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
3956pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956/pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
In the same way, fourthly, the context for authentein (v. 12) is obviously the preceding verse (v. 11) which says that women should learn "in all submissiveness" (hupotage). What is the opposite of authentein? Contextually the answer must be hupotage—submissiveness. This is the same positive word used in 1 Cor 9:13 "... they will glorify God because of your submission (hupotage) that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ..." So, Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage)." To me, this means: women should do the opposite of authentein. What is that? Hupotage.
Ok, (I wrote this last week before I posted the spoiler yesterday ;) let's take a look at the meaning of "hupotage" a form of hupotasso... it's kind of a game changer when we consider a little known understanding about hupotasso: there is a military context & a non-military context. For various reasons, it seems the military meaning has been the one that has been almost exclusively used over the ages (see 1-6 below) & the non-military almost completely lost over time (see bold below). I came across the non-military meaning a few years ago, then tried to find it again & it took me a bit, as the military meaning has overwhelmingly been the default.
The body of Christ, marriage & family relationships are not the military... so what might that mean if we recognize that there is a different meaning in non-military usage that is probably more appropriate in the Church? I get quite a range of interesting responses when I share this non-military context meaning with people, so I have no idea how anyone is going to respond to this! for some it's a huge relief, for others, it ticks them off... but I'm not making this meaning up, here is a Greek Lexicon that includes the non-military meaning...
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, COoperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (My emphASis added)
Non-military: CO prefix: together, mutually, in common; When you cooperate with another person, you work together with them to accomplish something.
Military context: SUB prefix: under, beneath... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person:
& FYI, here’s some of the definitions of responsibility! the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization; also, a moral obligation to do what’s right & being accountable. Interestingly, burden can refer to a problem, difficulty &/or responsibility that one carries.
For me, the non-military meaning makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands in the NT while the military meaning seems to be what Jesus is specifically saying not to do - "do not rule/lord it over like the Gentiles do"! Unfortunately, the military meaning has been used abusively & harmfully in far too many relationships. "Submit" has been used as a weapon to control those that are more vulnerable. (PS: this is some of the abuse / bad fruit that Kathy referred to)
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage).” Both Greek words here need a careful reexamination of their meaning, along with wrestling with why did Paul switch to a singular woman. Also, v12 is not a command.
It seems in v11 Paul is commanding Timothy to let a woman learn in an appropriate manner (calmly & cooperatively that is conducive for all people to learn) & in v12 he is saying in this situation with this specific woman he does not allow/permit/"epitrepo" (this Greek word seems to be always used in a case by case basis from what I have found in my research so far) this woman to teach (bc she's teaching something inappropriate/negative) &/or force her will/dominate, possibly harm (again some inappropriate/negative behavior) a man with her teaching/actions. This woman is doing something very inappropriate in the Body of Christ (but possibly ignorantly as in Ch 1 where Paul shares he was ignorant when he lists how he was the chief example of violent inappropriate sinful behavior), so Paul is telling Timothy do not permit her to continue in her harmful teaching/behavior until she learns differently & knows better.
My conclusion: The way in the Body of Christ is a loving, mutual, collaborative relational sharing of responsibilities based on a variety of dynamics. That is the non-military application of hupotasso/hupotage which I believe is more appropriate for the Body of Christ in our relationships with one another! If we are following the one anothers, then we will be praying together as well & when we pray together there is a unity that the Spirit brings...
Teach and counsel/exhort/admonish one another (Colossians 3:16a - no restrictions on gender!)
Mutual edification: encourage and build up one another (Romans 14:19b; 1 Thessalonians 5:11)
Posted in: Resources to Commemorate the 1,700th Anniversary of the Nicene Creed
The second aspect I find interesting and will share is the 20 canons that the Nicene Council also made along with the Creed. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
These canons seem to have been ignored for the most part unlike the Canons of Dort. I find the Nicene Canons are quite helpful in giving additional context for what the early church was dealing with at the time. #1 Castration? #19 Paulianists (a different Paul than the Apostle Paul)? deaconesses? The contexts for these are very, very interesting and insightful and help us better understand other difficult texts of the New Testament, such as Paul's letter to Timothy.
Posted in: Separation Agreement Templates: Documenting the Goodbye
interesting updates on NDAs... I've been wondering about this over the years since I presented this recommendation to Synod in 2018. It is confirming to see that this recommendation helped the CRC be a bit ahead of the curve re addressing NDAs.
The secular culture has had some pretty amazing changes to address NDA type documents in the last 7 years. NDAs were not just a problem in the CRC, but other denominations and institutions as well in covering up abuses of power and preventing necessary changes to address the abuses of power due to the silencing of those involved.
One of a number of reasons I find NDAs egregious in the Church is that there is no time limit. People were silenced for their entire life which often protected leaders who were abusing their power, for a short-term severance in return. RZIM (Ravi Zacharias Int'l Ministry) is a classic case of this. These abuses of power caused the deep wounds of God's daughters/people that Jeremiah 6 &8 mentions that the leaders failed to address well.
God's way is in the light. Even the Gov't is promoting transparency. We all still have a ways to go, but hopefully/prayerfully we can keep heading in the right direction.
here are a few examples of how NDAs are being addressed theologically, legislatively...
#NDAFREE started in 2021 addressing NDAs in the Church/ministry context...
https://julieroys.com/nda-free-christian-orgs/
https://www.ndafree.org/stories/
https://www.ndafree.org/resources/theological-reflections/
TEXAS in 2025:
https://julieroys.com/tx-law-prohibit-misuse-non-disclosure-agreements-approved-house-vote/
FEDERAL AND WA STATE in 2022:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/biden-signs-law-curbing-nondisclosure-agreements-that-block-victims-of-sexual-harassment-from-speaking-out
https://nwsidebar.wsba.org/2022/06/06/what-you-need-to-know-about-washingtons-silenced-no-more-act/
Posted in: What Does the Bible Say about Hell?
Interesting question Matt... Curious what prompted this question?
a lot of our traditional beliefs/ideas about hell are based on Dante's inferno and it's 9 levels written in the 1300s...
https://historylists.org/art/9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.html
"hell" is a conflation of the biblical Sheol/Hades/grave, gehenna, tartarus, lake of fire, the abyss, the outer darkness w weeping and gnashing of teeth and maybe one or two more concepts. Hades is also the name of the (demonic) Greek god of the underworld.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hades-Greek-mythology
https://www.britannica.com/topic/afterlife-religion
Eternal conscious torment is one of the traditional views of hell. It's not the only view, but it has become the primary one w Calvin's help. Luther disagreed with this view. I'm with Luther on this!
Eternal death is another view. God uses language that has a sense of finality 50+ times in scripture, such as death (ie wages of sin is death), destruction/destroy (ie fear the One Who can destroy both body & soul), perish (ie shall not perish), end, be no more...
the demons will be tormented forever bc they will be in God's consuming fiery presence (ie lake of fire) and they hate God.
Universalism is another traditional view. Quite a few of the Church Fathers believed this at some point in their journeys of faith.
If you want scriptural support (I have lists), further discussion, thoughts, questions, I would love to continue this "conversation" ... This is just a quick summary off the top of my head from my research a few years ago.
In the end, God promises He will make ALL THINGS NEW!
Posted in: Are We Out of Our Minds?
Interesting perspective! not sure what I expected when I clicked on this headline, but something possibly along the lines of addressing mental health. Thanks for sharing your personal journey of transformation through an unexpected path of brain trauma.
The Reformed/Presb./Calvinists (might just apply to Dutch/Friesians/Germans/Scots ;) seem to tend to be heavily intellectual, rational, and stoic, all good things, but there is so much more!
I did have a near death experience (NDE) I survived, the little one I had been carrying for 7 mos. inside me, did not. I will never be the same person I was before that. It was the start of what I call God converting me from a Ms. Martha to a Ms. Mary. Very painful, very profound journey. Intellectual -> Intimacy (spiritual), rational/transactional-> relational, stoic -> sensitive, linking the head and heart through the Holy Spirit revelation of opening the eyes of my heart to know Him more.
It's been almost 3 decades now since the loss of our first little one and my NDE. My husband and I have been blessed with 7 children, 3 living here with us and 4 with Jesus. The Spirit has transformed my faith and identity into a deep, rich and beautiful relationship with HIM, our Heavenly Father, as His precious daughter, as a new creation in Christ, as a temple of the Holy Spirit, and more, that I didn't even know was possible.
For His glory and our good...
Posted in: Is It Just Me, or ...
Bless your heart for being honest and still manage to be gracious as well. I would have ranted a whole lot more! Guess I need a lot more sanctification =/
Yes, what you share resonates (I'm on the west coast as well)....disconnect...resentment...frustration. so that's all I'll say before I say things I probably shouldn't... God's working on me to honor the crc as part of His Bride. and some days I really struggle for various reasons...
fyi, Rich, Dennis Fuqua will be in B'ham for a 4 hour pastors prayer summit on Monday, Oct. 3 from 8-12 if you are interested/available...
http://lowpc.org/summit
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
A brief break from lots of words... I came across this video in my research for sources of authente type words... he also shares around 7:50 another possibility of the meaning "authentein"... (yup, there has been a lot of work on this specific word in the last 30-50 years!)
(755) Why Women Must Learn in Quietness and Submission: Xenophon of Ephesus and 1 Timothy 2 (Gary Hoag) - YouTube
I had completely forgotten about the Ephesiaca document... this video shares why it has been largely ignored until the last 20 years or so due to erroneously dating of the Ephesiaca by Xenophon of Ephesus to a century or more post Paul... in 1996, it was determined it was written about 50AD... this 1st century contemporaneous document confirms the correctives that Paul is writes Timothy in 1 Tim 2... again, this is an example of the information that has come out post Synod 1996. @ 5 minutes, Gary talks about how teaching/learning happened in the temple of Artemis (I said I hadn't researched that part much, but I had heard this concept somewhere before, just didn't remember the details...)
ps... I do have the hupotage comment drafted... so you will see that later!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh my!!! so far have watched about 6 -7 hours of the 11 hours (I've been sick, so this was something I could do to keep my mind off being tired & miserable)... now I know a bit of what others feel like reading my long posts... but there is so much to cover that is being brought to the table for the first time especially in the last 5 years or so on this!
here's a few more thoughts so far...
So I did watch the last hour of the 4.5 hour chapter on 1 Tim 2:12... this hour pretty much dealt with the "oude" word & I had mentioned this in a 12.26.23 response on Rob's #2 concern: Secondly, if Paul meant this word in such a negative way, why does he couple it with didasko (teach) which is a positive term throughout the Bible?
I agree with MW that Kostenberger makes a strong case that oude makes either both positive or both pejorative, however, I still believe they are both negative in this usage. I don't think it became considered commonly neutral/positive until the gnostics started using it to describe their all powerful divine being in the 2nd cent AD, but even then it could be considered negative bc the Gnostics believed their "authentia" was supreme over the Hebrew God, so BIG problem!
a bit disappointed with both sides, lots that needs further work recognizing most of this material has only recently come to the attentions of both sides - the pantheon of gods/goddesses in that region have been mostly ignored over the ages for a lot of reasons, including there was very little information that could be accessed until recently on how these cults impacted Ephesus & surrounding regions... This context of Artemis/Diana, etal (& to make it even more confusing there are some significant differences b/t Artemis of the Ephesians & several variations of the Greek Artemis aka Roman Diana aka Egyptian Isis aka Persian asherah aka OT Queen of heaven are all different culture's manifestations of a fertility type goddess), the specifics of these cults have really only started to be researched, with exception of the Kroeger's 1992 Suffer not a Woman, in the last 20 years or so & probably most of it in the last 5 years or so with increased realization that Artemis is a significant aspect of the Ephesus culture, despite what MW has concluded (unfortunately the Kroeger's book was dismissed by scholars as bizarre & farfetched bc it dealt with bizarre & farfetched rituals of the mystery religions (aka witchcraft) that were secret... no one seems to want to touch that! Some egals are distancing themselves from any bizarre fertility rites (aka witchcraft!!!) going on in Ephesus region! Well, it does make one cringe as emasculation seems to have been part of the process for some of the male priests of some of the goddesses like cybele & it seems like she had an altar/statue in the temple of Artemis...
MW right away dismisses the negative uses of authentein for a variety of reasons & some of his reasons don't make sense. Like well, men shouldn't teach false doctrine (or murder) either, so that can't be what authentein means, since that doesn't just apply to women, all the while ignoring that Paul switched from plural women to singular woman, yet seems to believe whatever the prohibition is should be applied to only women!
even 6-7 hours of MW's work has a lot of information that needs to be looked at. I haven't watched any of his other videos, but I know others have responded to his earlier videos... What Winger Presently Gets Wrong: The Head Covering Debates (1 Cor 11) - Terran Williams
& they haven't had time to process these 11 hours yet A First Response to Mike Winger’s 11½ Hrs Video on 1 Timothy 2 - Terran Williams
so far, did not see any mention of the Gnostic influence as one of the false teachings being spread in Ephesus... also did not hear any reason why Paul/Holy Spirit would have chosen authentein, which is such a rare word, if he really intended a general authority. He would have known authentein would probably have been kind of shocking to those who heard it. Using this here for exercise authority doesn't make sense even if it was just becoming common at the time, instead of exousia or kurieous, words that were common & had already been used by Paul in other letters.
At about 6:02 MW notes that Clement with his classical background, uses both negative & positive uses of authentes bc he would have known both attic & koine Greek, why can't we use the same logic for Paul for those who think it had a positive common meaning at the time?!? Paul most likely also had a classical background & was a complex intellectual, he knew & possibly quoted the Wisdom of Solomon in Romans 1. There are a number of significant aspects that still have not been addressed... granted I have about 4 -5 more hours to watch
MW addresses artemis of the ephesians to a point & completely missed that the Greek word tx as busybodies in 1 Tim 5:13 is the same Greek word for workers of magic in Acts 19.. No reference at all to hecate who I believe is also alluded to in 1 Tim as the crone goddess of witchcraft. Cybele is another significant influence that had very bizarre & bloody rituals. MW mockingly dismisses "murders" as any possible meaning of authentein even though just a few paragraphs earlier he specifies 2 kin murders, manslayer & refers to himself as violent (I think most probably knew he was also guilty of murder via persecution!). as one fairly well known egal that MW mentions said to me "murder was definitely not on Paul's mind"... I disagreed & said "murder definitely was on Paul's mind"... based on chapter 1!
Bees are somehow part of the cult of Artemis of the Ephesians,. Those who mate w queen bees die in a gruesome way.... the "regalia" of Artemis of the Ephesians has significant meanings that we have barely looked at. I think Clinton Arnold was very uncomfortable thinking about the possibilities of what those strange large eggshaped objects on Artemis are!
These cultic practices were secret for millenial, there's a reason many cults are connected with "mystery religions". I believe there was a 2nd temple of Artemis close to Ephesus that was specifically for where the mystery rites were practiced. Rev 2 talks about the deep things of satan aka mystery rituals. Evidence of spells & curses have been found in Western Asia Minor including re poisoning husbands.
So there are still other considerable aspects of the culture that need to to be looked at. around the turn of the era, there was a syncretism of judaism + sorcery + astrology => secret knowledge aka mystery religions... later Christianity was added into the mix, this eventually developed into what we now call gnosticism. the Gnostics co-opted the use of "authentes"... this very likely influenced how early church fathers, including Jerome understood it.
the myths & geneologies (1 Tim 1:3) of the cults & the gnostics are pretty bizarre with probably more overlap than we know bc of the secret mysteries associated with them both... it gets into the essenes (started 2nd BCE), the naassenes & their snake worship venerating satan in the garden bc the serpent gave humans, specifically EVE, the key to KNOWLEDGE! The creation story gets blasphemously twisted by the gnostics & some of their ideas seem to have started in the 1st cent BC. probably not your typical SS class!!!
The following is evidence of the gnostics (Cerinthus was considered an early gnostic, part of the Simonian school - yes that Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8) being a problem in Ephesus at the time of the Apostles....Here's an encounter of the Apostle John at a bathhouse in EPHESUS per Irenaeus as told to him by Polycarp his mentor who was a student of John...
In Asia, early Christian writers identify Cerinthus as an adversary of the Apostle John. According to Irenaeus, his teacher Polycarp, himself a student of John,[15] told the story that John rushed out of a bathhouse at Ephesus without bathing when he found out Cerinthus was inside, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is inside!"[16][17] Irenaeus also relates that John sought by proclamation of his gospel "to remove that error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men".[18] Cerinthus - Wikipedia
Hope you found it a bit enlightening & entertaining! Against Heresies by Irenaeus is something that might need to be read to better understand the gnostics... The gnostic writings found in 1945 added a new dimension to this discussion in the last several decades as their translations did not become released into the broader public until the late 80s & gradually became a part of the general academic discussion over the next few decades. Again, after the 1995-1996 synod decision re women.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Blessings to everyone in this New Year! Praise God His mercies are new every morning, not just once a year!
well, after 2 weeks of holiday gatherings & our rhythm is settling down again, I've been meaning to post my response on hupotage, but it hasn't happened yet, so I'm going to give a spoiler on hupotage for now... I said I would post on hupotage next but I have been sitting in ICU with a friend so she's not alone, & took my laptop with me tonight so I can work on some things including following up on this discussion. However, my hupotage draft comment is on my home computer... so in the meantime...
Here is what I found on my journey of discovery re hupotage/hupotasso...
there was a military and a NON military context for the use of hupotasso & related words like hupotage! It seems the NON military meaning has almost been completely lost since who knows when!
Hupotasso (hupotage is based on hupotasso) does NOT mean submit in a NON military context = ie marriage & the church as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as the priesthood of all believers. It means COoperation & sharing responsibilities & burdens... a mutual collaboration! how beautiful is that!
Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (NAS) (biblestudytools.com)
I hope to post more on this tomorrow sometime... for me, this makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands & Jesus saying multiple times, if we love Him, we will keep His commands...
Your Creator takes GREAT delight in you & REJOICES over you with LOUD, JOYFUL, EXUBERANT singing!
Strong's Hebrew: 7440. רִנָּה (rinnah) -- a ringing cry (biblehub.com)
What Exactly is High Praise? | CRC Network (crcna.org)
Please join me in prayer for God's best for ALL! men, women, young, old, rich, poor, every tribe, tongue, people & nation! FOr our good & His glory!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Here's a recent find that is an example of what I lament regarding how women's voices have literally been disregarded over the ages, especially because so many complementarians have said comps have a "high regard of the Word" compared to egals who I have heard a number times that comps believe have a low view of the Word, which has been used to discredit the egal position. Yet, it seems translational biases like this get a free pass by comps instead of lamenting & repenting of how some translations have partially nullified the Word of God regarding women through limiting the Greek ALL THESE to exclusively men...
Acts 2:7 Astounded and amazed, they asked, "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? (biblehub.com) (Berean Standard Bible; click link for parallel translations)
Acts 2:7 in the 1984 NIV also specifies men when the Greek is an inclusive ALL THESE... There were women in the upper room, including Mary the mother of Jesus per Acts 1:14! ALL 120 were speaking in tongues, not just the men...
here's the Greek... Strong's Greek: 3956. πᾶς (pas) -- all, every (biblehub.com)
all, the whole, every kind of...
3956 pás – each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).
3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóō) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole – viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.
Strong's Greek: 3778. οὗτος, (houtos, hauté, touto) -- this (biblehub.com)
this; he, she, it. (Seems very inclusive to me, yet it has been made exclusive in some translations, including the 1984 NIV which has been the primary version used in the CRC for decades!)
Again, I hurt & weep with the women who have received a message in various ways & for various reasons that they, their gifts, voices, should be excluded in ways in the church, unless they are obedient, silent, submissive Miss Marthas instead of mutually ministering/prophesying together with one another as brothers & sisters in the Lord, as co-laborers, working together seeking His Kingdom first!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Kathy, thanks for joining in this discussion (& Hetty as well)! I know you have been on the front lines of this debate for decades! I appreciate your experience and perspective. I agree on using broader principles of scripture as a lens. That's why I love the "one anothers"... we need both/and... & we can trust God's best for us on this journey of seeking His heart/truth!
so how do we reconcile when there are two different views? We need to take another look... the information that has become available in the last 25 years or so since Synod's decision in the mid 90s, needs to be tested and discerned in this discussion. For example, Josephus was unheard of in the 90s for the most part... so why is his name familiar to many now in 2023? Well, there was this place called Caesarea Philippi that Josephus wrote a LOT about how amazing it was! The scholars, theologians thought he was a nut case because they were not aware of evidence of such a fantastical city...
until....
archeologists discovered significant parts of this amazing Caesarea Phillipi in the late 70s & 80s that validated what Josephus had written... then it took about another 10 years for Josephus writings' to make it through acadamia & be accepted as accurate & credible & become more commonly known in our study of biblical history. So, we basically only started including Josephus' work in the last 20 years or so.
There is other information that is now more commonly available that gives a different story of women in the early church... why did councils ban women from being ordained as elders in the 4th century? Because women were functioning as elders & deaconesses in the early church. This history needs to be looked at, the Council of Nicea seems to be a turning point on what women could do in the Church. Up until then, history & archeological evidence show women involved in ways that are now not allowed by comps.
So both comps & egals have work to do. Both sides need "peithesthe", a Greek word that means to be open to being persuaded/convinced by another's view. Someone shared with me that "peithesthe" was the word that opened debates in the Greek forums.
Peithesthe/Be persuaded/convinced by those who lead (by their example, including character, experience, maturity) and willingly choose to follow their Godly example because it is God's best for you, so that these Godly believers, who watch out on your behalf (including your soul), can rejoice in your testimony of faith, instead of grieving when you choose not to follow God's best for you... based on the Greek in Hebrews 13:17
I will respond to other aspects of Kathy's comments in reply to Rob's response.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks for your response Kathy... I also struggle with the refusal of leaders to publicly admit where we/they have been wrong &/or ignorant in some of our understanding/translations of Scripture. The silence has been deafening! I actually wrote to the NIV publishing company asking for them to publicly apologize for the harm the 84 NIV caused to women because of all the added male references that are NOT in the Greek! No response! (I understand the 2011 NIV corrected that, but can't they publicly admit that the 84 NIV included a bias regarding women?) So comps say they have a high view of scripture, yet many continue to use the 84 NIV & now the ESV which was intended to be a "comp" version!
I have found I have been wrong about 100+ things that I have been taught over the years in the reformed tradition. It's a very painful but profound journey. (I call this my long list of laments) God's truth is beautiful; however, traditions of man/elders have nullified His truth/word in various ways over the ages, including in translations. Speaking His truth brings clarity, healing & flourishing. Continuing to ignore our errors brings confusion and further harm, especially for the vulnerable & oppressed & maintains the status quo that perpetuates abuses of power.
Malachi 2:16 is another example that has caused much harm to women in abusive marriages, especially in contexts where the pastor/elders have a permanence in marriage belief no matter what!!
The traditional translation that God hates divorce needs to be corrected & the traditional view on divorce only in the case of abandonment and adultery needs to be intentionally expanded to include abuse/treachery/violence & recognized that God hates the treachery that causes the divorce.
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel. "He who divorces his wife covers his garment with violence," says the LORD of Hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit and do not break faith. (biblehub.com) Berean Standard Bible
“The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the LORD, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect,” says the LORD Almighty. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful***. 2011 NIV
*** Strong's Hebrew: 898. בָּגַד (bagad) -- to act or deal treacherously (biblehub.com)
***this word includes so much more than just being adulterous/unfaithful...
acted deceitfully (1), acted treacherously (2), betrayed (1), betrays (1), deal (1), deal treacherously (10), deal very treacherously (1), deals treacherously (1), dealt treacherously (8), dealt very treacherously (1), faithless (2), treacherous (15), treacherous one still deals treacherously (1), treacherous deal (1), treacherously (1), unfairness (1).
Treacherous: involving betrayal or deception; marked by hidden dangers, hazards, or perils
The permanence of marriage & refusal to recognize abuse as a biblical reason for divorce needs to be reconsidered! Amazingly Wayne Grudem did change his mind several years ago... now praying for John Piper & others like him to admit they were wrong as well! A well known reformed theologian privately admitted they believe abuse is a biblical reason but were not willing to publicly say it! This is how these harmful distortions are perpetuated!
Grounds for Divorce: Why I Now Believe There Are More Than Two - Wayne Grudem
Hebrews 13:17 in the 84 NIV is another example that needs to be looked at & publicly corrected... here "obey" 2x + "authority" + "men" are added as the Greek does NOT support these words & has been used as an authoritarian weapon to intimidate & silence concerns re abuses of power that maintain the status quo that perpetuates & gives permission to abuses of power/authoritarian lording it over! This verse has a number of red flags when comparing it to the Greek! I found 10 flags in the 84 NIV translation of this one verse alone! This verse seems to be used as the very opposite of Jesus telling us NOT to lord it over or exercise authority over our brothers & sisters in Christ!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Finally… Here we go on hupotasso…
excerpt from Rob's response:
In the same way, fourthly, the context for authentein (v. 12) is obviously the preceding verse (v. 11) which says that women should learn "in all submissiveness" (hupotage). What is the opposite of authentein? Contextually the answer must be hupotage—submissiveness. This is the same positive word used in 1 Cor 9:13 "... they will glorify God because of your submission (hupotage) that comes from your confession of the gospel of Christ..." So, Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage)." To me, this means: women should do the opposite of authentein. What is that? Hupotage.
again note that Paul uses singular woman in v11&12 compared to the plural women in v9-10... there is something unique going on here that is specific to one woman that is being a bit of a problem in the ekklesia of Ephesus as part of the Way. 1 Timothy 2:11 A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. (biblehub.com)
Ok, (I wrote this last week before I posted the spoiler yesterday ;) let's take a look at the meaning of "hupotage" a form of hupotasso... it's kind of a game changer when we consider a little known understanding about hupotasso: there is a military context & a non-military context. For various reasons, it seems the military meaning has been the one that has been almost exclusively used over the ages (see 1-6 below) & the non-military almost completely lost over time (see bold below). I came across the non-military meaning a few years ago, then tried to find it again & it took me a bit, as the military meaning has overwhelmingly been the default.
The body of Christ, marriage & family relationships are not the military... so what might that mean if we recognize that there is a different meaning in non-military usage that is probably more appropriate in the Church? I get quite a range of interesting responses when I share this non-military context meaning with people, so I have no idea how anyone is going to respond to this! for some it's a huge relief, for others, it ticks them off... but I'm not making this meaning up, here is a Greek Lexicon that includes the non-military meaning...
Hupotasso Meaning - Greek Lexicon | New Testament (KJV) (biblestudytools.com)
Hupotasso
hoop-ot-as'-so
Verb
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, COoperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden". (My emphASis added)
Non-military: CO prefix: together, mutually, in common; When you cooperate with another person, you work together with them to accomplish something.
Military context: SUB prefix: under, beneath... accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person:
& FYI, here’s some of the definitions of responsibility! the opportunity or ability to act independently and make decisions without authorization; also, a moral obligation to do what’s right & being accountable. Interestingly, burden can refer to a problem, difficulty &/or responsibility that one carries.
For me, the non-military meaning makes so much sense with the 59 one another commands in the NT while the military meaning seems to be what Jesus is specifically saying not to do - "do not rule/lord it over like the Gentiles do"! Unfortunately, the military meaning has been used abusively & harmfully in far too many relationships. "Submit" has been used as a weapon to control those that are more vulnerable. (PS: this is some of the abuse / bad fruit that Kathy referred to)
So Biblical language like one another Strong's Greek: 240. ἀλλήλων (allélón) -- of one another (biblehub.com), brothers & sisters in the Lord (adelphos is gender inclusive, siblings from the same womb; Strong's Greek: 80. ἀδελφός (adelphos) -- a brother (biblehub.com)), royal priesthood (of ALL believers), holy people/saints Strong's Greek: 40. ἅγιος (hagios) -- sacred, holy (biblehub.com), co-laborers/fellow workers type of language Strong's Greek: 4904. συνεργός (sunergos) -- a fellow worker (biblehub.com) indicates this collaborative use.
Interesting, that last Greek word reminded me of synergy: the combined power of a group of things when they are working together that is greater than the total power achieved by each working separately.
I do NOT believe Paul is saying, "Women should not exercise authority (authentein) rather they should be submissive (hupotage).” Both Greek words here need a careful reexamination of their meaning, along with wrestling with why did Paul switch to a singular woman. Also, v12 is not a command.
It seems in v11 Paul is commanding Timothy to let a woman learn in an appropriate manner (calmly & cooperatively that is conducive for all people to learn) & in v12 he is saying in this situation with this specific woman he does not allow/permit/"epitrepo" (this Greek word seems to be always used in a case by case basis from what I have found in my research so far) this woman to teach (bc she's teaching something inappropriate/negative) &/or force her will/dominate, possibly harm (again some inappropriate/negative behavior) a man with her teaching/actions. This woman is doing something very inappropriate in the Body of Christ (but possibly ignorantly as in Ch 1 where Paul shares he was ignorant when he lists how he was the chief example of violent inappropriate sinful behavior), so Paul is telling Timothy do not permit her to continue in her harmful teaching/behavior until she learns differently & knows better.
My conclusion: The way in the Body of Christ is a loving, mutual, collaborative relational sharing of responsibilities based on a variety of dynamics. That is the non-military application of hupotasso/hupotage which I believe is more appropriate for the Body of Christ in our relationships with one another! If we are following the one anothers, then we will be praying together as well & when we pray together there is a unity that the Spirit brings...
Teach and counsel/exhort/admonish one another (Colossians 3:16a - no restrictions on gender!)
Mutual edification: encourage and build up one another (Romans 14:19b; 1 Thessalonians 5:11)