Bev Sterk
I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
The following was a comment I posted originally in Rob's What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org)... Rob has graciously moved the conversation here to it's own post.... I hope many will join us as we wrestle with our views of women leadership in the church & what that looks like.
Rob, Bonnie, Kristen, Keith, Hetty & anyone else who is interested...
since it came up...
I would love to have a discussion on 1 Tim 2:12 etc regarding women in ministry with whoever is interested... I have done a deep dive into the hapax legomenon "Authentein" & other very rare Greek words used in 1 Timothy related to women... what I have found is these words are associated with sorcery/witchcraft of specific goddesses that were worshipped in Ephesus, including Artemis of the Ephesians per Acts 19 & the crone goddess hecate (old woman/crone in 1 Tim 4:7 & also referred to in 5:13 re the Greek word for boiling, seething pot ie cauldron & the Greek word for sorcery also used one other time in Acts 19:19)... this cultural context of 50+ gods/goddesses in Ephesus has often been ignored & dismissed in the discussion of "authentein" & 1 Timothy.
when we understand "authentein" as general authority in 1 Tim 2:12, we ignore the horrific history of authentein, along with limiting women in ways that were never intended... up until about 100 AD, the "authente" root was almost always used in the context of violence... ie murder, suicide, sacrifice (ie Septuagint Wisdom of Solomon 12:3-6 where it is referring to parents who murdered/sacrificed their children to idols...
from Strongs: a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
authentein was violently evil until around 100 AD when the early gnostics coopted the "authente' root to describe their divine all powerful being... from Strongs b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: Strong's Greek: 831. αὐθεντέω (authenteó) -- to govern, exercise authority (biblehub.com)
EXCERPT:
Meanings for authentein in the TLG between 200 B.C. and 200 A.D. (a 400-year span with the New Testament period at its center) include the following:
– “doer of a massacre”
– “author of crimes”
– “perpetrators of sacrilege”
– “supporter of violent actions”
– “murderer of oneself”
– “sole power”
– “perpetrator of slaughter”
– “murderer”
– “slayer”
– “slayer of oneself”
– “authority”
– “perpetrator of evil”
– “one who murders by his own hand”
excerpt from: Defusing the 1 Timothy 2:12 Bomb: What Does Paul Mean by Authority (Authentein) | The Junia Project
the descriptions that have to do w authority are post 100AD in the gnostic writings... we have to look at pre Paul & Post Paul bc the word started morphing via the early gnostics within a few years/ decades after Paul used it in his letter to Timothy. I believe we have conflated the pre Paul (Earlier usage) & the post Paul (later Greek writings starting with the early gnostics around 100AD) that has caused much confusion over the ages... it is critical we differentiate between before Paul & after Paul.
Authentein then morphed, as a result of the gnostic using the 'Authente" root in their writings, over the next 300 years so that by400 AD, Jerome used the Latin "dominare" in the Latin Vulgate... then in early 1500s Erasmus used "usurp authority"... authentein kept getting less & less negative over the ages & now we have a neutral general authority... but Paul would have most likely been familiar with the use of the authente root word in the Septuagint as a violent form of complete power over someone who had NO power ie young children.
that's just the tip of the iceberg... the research is fascinating but also heartbreaking as it seems some very, very rare Greek words have been misunderstood regarding women & we are still struggling with the impact of this!
FYI on Hecate, she was known as the Crone goddess of WITCHCRAFT & CHILDBIRTH (1 Tim 2:15)... one of her symbols was a cauldron... her altar/idol was in the temple of artemis in ephesus (artemis was also known as a goddess of childbirth).. Everything You Need To Know About Hecate (Maiden, Mother, Crone) (thecollector.com)
I have never, ever heard or read anyone mention hecate in the context of 1 Tim & Ephesus... but there are some very rare Greek words that indicate Paul is referring to her as the crone in 1 tim 4:7 & again in 5:13 along with numerous other references to satanic beliefs (ie doctrines of demons, throne of satan, synagogue of satan, secrets of satan, etc). in Ephesus/Asia Minor..
& here's the portion from Septuagint's Wisdom 12... that parallels the cultural context Paul & Timothy are dealing with in Ephesus...
For it was thy will to destroy by the hands of our fathers both those old inhabitants of thy holy land,
4Whom thou hatedst for doing most odious works of witchcrafts, and wicked sacrifices;
5And also those merciless murderers of children, and devourers of man's flesh, and the feasts of blood,
6With their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands souls destitute of help:
WISDOM OF SOLOMON CHAPTER 12 KJV (kingjamesbibleonline.org)
murder is definitely on Paul's mind in 1 Timothy... he mentions 3 very specific type of murders in 1 Tim 1:9-10, each is a hapax legomenon like authentein.
Thoughts? Can we move this to it's own discussion post? (YUP, it happened! Here we are!) where can we have this discussion? since the women as pastors came up for various reasons, I think it's important that we take another hard look at 1 Timothy & other scriptures that have been used to limit women serving in various ways...
the family of God is not about authority over anyone (per Jesus in Matt 20 & Peter in 1 Peter 5 ), it's about how we love/serve one another by character. & example through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
anyways, some food for thought from a bit of my research on 1 Timothy & Ephesus
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
oh Bonny, I am so sorry. May you & your loved ones sense the Peace and Presence of the Good Shepherd as you journey through this valley in the shadow of death... the journey of grief is brutal, yet beautiful as it expresses our deep love for the one that is no longer physically with us... may the family of believers that you minister with, surround you with their love & compassion in so many ways as we remember Jesus' birth and transition into 2024... know that you are a precious, priceless beautiful daughter of the King & are deeply loved by Your Creator!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I came across this 2019 lecture from Clinton Arnold, Dean & Professor of New Testament at Talbot School of Theology (Biola Un in CA)... thought it was interesting confirmation of what a significant part of the Ephesian/Asia Minor culture the worship/witchcraft/magic of the gods & goddesses were back in the time of Paul & Timothy. Introduction to Ephesians | Clinton E. Arnold (youtube.com)
I haven't forgotten about this discussion, just been swamped with unexpected extras as well as regular responsibilities.
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Before I jump back into this discussion, I want to take a moment to reflect on Christmas, along with recognizing that many women here and around the world have experienced deep pain &/or abuse because of the different views of women. My heart is for one another & that all, men and women, flourish and thrive on our journey of faith together and on behalf of those around the world. I just watched the video of another woman arrested recently in Iran by the morality police for not having her hair covered - the abuse of women I witnessed in a number of contexts, but especially the church & Islamic countries where many women were becoming Christians, is a key part of what prompted me to take a deeper dive into traditional views of women - that is a story in itself which bits & pieces might come out in the discussion. I am not a complementarian, egalitarian or a feminist although there are aspects of each that I agree with, I am "one another" and want God's best for everyone! The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
I hope ya'll were able to spend some sweet time with family as we reflected on the birth of Jesus, coming to earth as a baby, remembering Who He is and what He has done... I also know that these sacred times can be difficult for families, especially after losing a loved one, but also for many other reasons why people are struggling... know that the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, Emmanuel, God is with us and will never leave us as we journey together with Him.
Here are 2 songs that are in my top 100 favorites that I would like to share with you as we transition from Christmas into 2024... the Lord bless you and keep you...
What Child Is This / Child of the Poor | The Hound + The Fox - YouTube
(750) David Phelps and Maggie Beth Phelps - Agnus Dei [Live] - YouTube (FYI: this is a different version of Agnus Dei, not the MW Smith one)
... back to regularly scheduled discussions...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Thanks Rob, I have watched over 2 hours so far of MW of what looks like a 4&1/2 hour chapter on authentein... I have a # of concerns, but for now, here's a limited response...
I agree that a very important part of this discussion is when did authentein change its meaning & especially, at what point did it become COMMONLY used in its koine form. There is an underlying reason why both comps & egals seem to be hyper focused on proving whether authentein is positive or pejorative when Paul uses it. Because whether authentein is positive or pejorative influences whether the teaching/didaskein is a positive or pejorative type of teaching because of the use of the Greek word "oude".
Somewhere over the course of 250 years (50BC-200AD), the meaning of this word morphed. So at what point would the koine meaning become the common usage (especially instead of exousia)? As you said, the process of a word changing what it means would have been a lot slower back then, & I believe that it became COMMON after Paul, especially when the Gnostics started using it in the 2nd century AD. Many of MW's references to uses of it are post 1st Century AD with 2 in astrological contexts which the Gnostics had a keen interest in astrology for their "secret (special) knowledge".
At this point, I disagree with both Al Wolters & MW that the koine understanding became the common use of understanding around 0 BC/AD (pre Paul - not saying it was never used at this point but extremely RARE!) & seems to become more common after Paul (still RARE, but several hundred uses) but really didn't COMMONly become the new meaning until the 2nd century AD. The 1st century is some of the slow change of that word, but it took over 100 years! Sure, there are a few examples to show it started before Paul, but it took time & did not become COMMON until after Paul. Those 100 years make a BIG difference & that's the confusion because it happened in bits & pieces over 200 or so years, in the 100 years before & 100 years after the time of Paul. In the past, the 300 years post Paul was all lumped into the research of authentein, but I think most of the shift is post Paul & even then, authentes words often had a very domineering vibe. I believe the Gnostics/post Paul co-opted this rare word & have added to the confusion. So far have not heard any mention of the Gnostics by MW other than indirectly when referring to 2 astrological texts (you can do your own research on the connection b/t Gnostics & astrology, but here's one example: The Gnostic Tradition & Astrology: A Philosophical Investigation - NightFall Astrology; in addition to this, I find it interesting that statues of Artemis of Ephesus had the Zodiac around her neck & her "image fell from heaven" Acts 19:35)
MW references A LOT of Al Wolters material which Al basically disregards any attic use of the "authentes' root word in Paul's time (even though there is indication post Paul of a pejorative usage in the church context- ie Chrysostom, Council of Chalcedon). The two hundred years (50BC- 150AD) are the transition with most of it seeming to happen AFTER Paul based on other uses that have been found so far. Paul would most likely have been familiar with the attic Greek with all of his education, especially since the Septuagint's Wisdom of Solomon is in the Attic Greek. Even though we no longer recognize WoS as part of canon today, it was still considered part of the Septuagint/Scripture in Paul's time & for centuries afterward, though there was some dispute on it in by a few early church fathers post Paul. So everyone who studied the Septuagint, would have been familiar with "authentes" in this context, let alone that Paul had been at Mars Hill, which was where authentes were tried & the Furies dealt with murders, including kin murders Tisiphone - Wikipedia.. ; Excerpt: from these writers we learn that down to the second century A. D. there were five different homicide courts at Athens-the Areopagus, Palladium, Delphinium, Phreatto and Prytaneumn. (pg 331 of The Homicide Courts of Ancient Athens on JSTOR)
So far, I have not heard MW mention that Jerome translates it with a negative meaning (dominare), I have not heard MW mention the specific kin murders in 1Timothy (patroloais/matroloais), I have not heard any reference to the satanic rituals aka god/goddess worship going on in Ephesus that included "kin murder" similar to the Wisdom of Solomon context. It is far more likely Paul would have read WoS over any obscure letters from Tryphon. So for me, the Septuagint carries far more weight for how Paul would have used it at that point in time. That the Koine Greek was the common use by Paul's time is sketchy at best (although I do appreciate that MW got the entire Tryphon letter translated).
I agree with MW that egals can be all over the place with different interpretations (but comps have done the same with very inconsistent applications of 1 Tim 2:8-15 as well, so both sides are guilty). I have my theories on that, one of them is that I think some will make a stmt of their view that is published & then pride will not let them admit they are wrong. I have had a few interactions on social media with some, & I have found that most are not willing to look at any other possibility then their view. Both sides have issues! That's why I'm "one another"... The Case for "One Another" (See These 59 Commands in the Bible) | CRC Network (crcna.org)
In addition to the 59 one anothers, Jesus pretty clearly states NONE OF US in the Body of Christ are to exercise authority over others... Now why would Paul not have used the same Greek word that Jesus uses, if Paul meant "exercise authority" (along with ironically why did Paul not use "exousia" which was the common word for authority in Koine Greek) instead of this very rare obscure word? Maybe that will be answered in the next 2&1/2 hours?
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them aside and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. (biblehub.com)
Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
NOT SO WITH YOU... Matt 20:26
These 2 Scriptural principles are part of the reason why I do not believe "authentein" means a general authority or exercise authority in 1 Timothy 2:12. I have other reasons, but these are some key principles for me!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
I actually posted most of this last week sometime on the What's So Hard About Being a Pastor? | CRC Network (crcna.org), it was deleted before Rob started this post, so I'm reposting a slightly edited version in case anyone is confused if they think they might have read this somewhere before... otherwise I hope I am not adding to any confusion...
Thank you, Rob, for your thoughtful & respectful response... those are great questions - they really open the door for an amazing discussion... I didn't want to hijack your post, so tried to limit the firehose of information ;) (ps. that's why we started a new thread on this specific aspect of women as leaders, pastors)
I have a few minutes right now (ps. last week), so will share some thoughts on your 2nd hesitation...
what I've found (per Andreas Kostenberger see ****) is when "oude" 1 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) is used in any Greek literature, his conclusion is that whatever is being referred to on both sides of "oude" are either both positive or both negative, no exceptions that he could find (you are welcome to test that!). So if one word/phrase is negative, then both are a negative type of behavior... if authentein is negative, the teaching was also a negative type of teaching (of course Kostenberger believes they are both positive, along with Al Wolters)... so the teaching could be referring to what Paul & Timothy are addressing in Ephesus in ch 1:3-8, 4:1-2, etc... that is why a very important question is: did the Holy Spirit via Paul intend for authentein to be negative, neutral or positive here? I have landed on it's negative, but how dare I disagree with some of the experts like Andreas & Al? Well, it is daunting, but I hope to present the evidence for why I disagree based on usage in historical sources before Paul & after Paul, for why I think that authentein is negative & would love for it to be tested! The Septuagint's use of "authente" in Wisdom of Solomon 12:6 has a very interesting context that is very similar to Ephesus in Paul's time.
**** Köstenberger’s chapter builds on his previous work for the rendering of 1 Tim. 2:9-15 by exploring other uses of the conjunction οὐδέ (oude) and arguing that Paul must either be arguing for a positive or a negative function for both teaching (διδάσκω, didasko) and exercising authority (αὐθεντέω, authenteo). A Review | Women in the Church: An Interpretation and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 - CBMW
I hope to get back to you later when I have time but wanted to initially respond that I saw/read your response & really appreciate your testing what I shared & your thoughts/insights! If I'm off/wrong, I want to know... I believe honest feedback is healthy! We are both searching for His truth! 100% in agreement on let's go to the sources!!
Blessings. For His glory & our good!
Bev
ps. ok, I now have some time to follow up on Rob's other concerns and hesitations...
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
That's fine if this is not where you are at, but for others, it can be life & death, as well as seeking truth & justice as part of our discipleship journey. My concern are the many women around the world that are experiencing significant oppression due to a view of women that is far less than a mutual respect of "one another", along with the men that are being executed for protesting on their behalf... women continue to be arrested by the morality police in Iran, which also happens to be one of the fastest growing Chr movements in the world. Thankfully there are some women pastors in Iran (I have had the honor of meeting one of them & what she shared was fascinating!), but traditional limitations are hindering other women from serving in that capacity there! 'Sheep Among Wolves': Documentary looks at fast-growing Christian movement in Iran, led by women | Entertainment News (christianpost.com)
We are dealing with ancient traditions/beliefs regarding women that fuel the oppression, it's time to take another deep look at the history of how we got here & what did God really mean in His word about women and the church... the very RARE authentein word is a HUGE piece of the discussion!
Iran recently executed a number of protesters that supported women, life, freedom... the enemy seems to continue trying to oppress/silence women.
While the World Looks Elsewhere, Iran Hurries Executions | TIME
Sure, these discussions might not be for everyone, but that doesn't mean they aren't necessary as part of seeking first the Kingdom of God... & for me that includes how we relate with "one another"...
Posted in: Statement About The Deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor
Every so often, it might be a good thing to consider reading Martin Luther King Jr.'s letter that he wrote to white pastors in 1963, that MLK wrote from a Birmingham jail after he was arrested for participating in a non-violent protest...
https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/documents/Letter_Birmingham_Jail.pdf
interestingly, in 2020, we hear similar pious sounding excuses to justify silence in the face of injustice, that MLK heard back in the 60s... just change the name of the city...
some food for thought...
2 excerpts from MLK's letter:
Excerpt #1
You deplore the demonstrations that are presently taking place in Birmingham. But I am sorry that your statement did not express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being. I am sure that each of you would want to go beyond the superficial social analyst who looks merely at effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. I would not hesitate to say that it is unfortunate that so-called demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham at this time, but I would say in more emphatic terms that it is even more unfortunate that the white power structure of this city left the Negro community with no other alternative...
excerpt #2
I MUST make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time; and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. EOQ
Posted in: Statement About The Deaths of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor
I have been sharing the scriptural principle of "one another"... the Greek word Allelon (one another) is used 100x in the new testament, 59 of those times are commands, and 16 of those commands are to "love one another"... "one another" is a positive way to say "anti racism"...
https://www.mmlearn.org/hubfs/docs/OneAnotherPassages.pdf
blessings...
Posted in: Power: How Will We Use It?
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Thanks Kelly, appreciate your input and all your work in this area over the years, especially in 2016...
Transference/emotional affairs can be a significant concern when there is counseling or some other emotional connection between the pastor and parishioner... I'm not sure how much this is recognized or understood. It seems to be more of a problem the more charismatic a pastor is? I've only heard one pastor ever mention this... otherwise... crickets... wonder why? is this discussed in seminary? in the informal meetings when pastors get together for breakfast? are pastors aware of this and taking advantage of transference at the ignorance/expense of the rest of the congregation? Are some pastors meeting their emotional needs through this transference? which is spiritual abuse and exploitation by the way...
I'm somewhat familiar with Brad's/futurist guy material and appreciate it, and think his work is very helpful to understand the power dynamics of leadership... I appreciated his analysis of an unhealthy system via the pyramid of abuse with the various levels of perpetrator, perpetuators, procurators and pawns... and how this cover up/ lack of accountability happens... and sadly, this is what i've witnessed in many of the various situations I'm directly aware of.
https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/
Pyramid of Abuse (c) 2018 Brad Sargent