I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Thanks for sharing Mavis. I was just chatting with my neighbor yesterday afternoon, and she was sharing how much she appreciates Sonlights' women's bible studies!
Creativity and imagination are closely related. As image bearers of our Creator, we have been given that ability to create in various ways, using our minds to imagine stories in powerful ways, including in music.
Several similar stories that have been very meaningful to me include imagining being the centurion at the cross with his soldiers and how that changed their lives, what they said to their families when they got home, what the centurion said to Pilate, what he might have said to his soldiers. I had over 8 hours as I was driving through the night imagining the impact of crucifying Jesus on the centurion and his men. It was very powerful! I still cry when I think about it.
I imagined Jesus speaking to one of the soldiers that nailed him to the cross and what might have been said between the two that was never recorded, as the soldier realizes he is the one that should die for his sin instead of Jesus.
I imagined being Nicodemus with Joseph and the women honoring and preparing Jesus' body for burial with spices, Nicodemus who had been secretive coming to Jesus at night, now being open with his belief in Jesus, they were on holy ground...
Stories through music:
I love Don Francisco's songs that are stories of imagining - my favorite is He's Alive (told from Peter's perspective) Gaither Vocal Band - He's Alive (lyrics), Jehoshaphat is another great one, Adam, Where are you? I Gotta tell Somebody... Great songs that help bring a deeper appreciation of some stories in Scripture.
also Ray Boltz Watch the Lamb from the point of Simon of Cyrene who carried Jesus' cross...
I love to use anointing/essential oils, frankincense, myrrh, spikenard, sandalwood, fragrances that would have been familiar in Jesus' time when I'm pondering, processing, praying... Amazon.com : abba jerusalem anointing prayer oil
No apologies needed! When you have space and time to read, process and respond. No hurry!
There are so many unpredictable situations that arise, God knows and His Divine timing/Providence is amazing!!! Your priority is your amazing and beautiful wife. I read your bio here (68) J. Cameron Fraser - Independent Researcher
You both have been courageous forerunners and on the front lines of our Kingdom battle (especially for life and truth) against the powers of darkness and spiritual warfare attacks from the enemy in your journey together!
I was able to access a few pages of your document on the CRC, women, deacons (Thanks! I am going to re-read the 1973 Synod report on women). I would love the entire document if there is another way for me to access it (otherwise I will purchase it via TREN). AND if/when you are up for it, would love a debrief / follow up from you after 23 years and how your recommendations worked in practical places/congregations, the pros, the cons. From the little bit I could glean and what you shared in your previous response, I think we are actually pretty close in possible ways to give women a voice at the council table, and beyond, because for me personally, this is not about office, titles, positions or power, this is primarily about women's voices being included at the table, especially on behalf of women, as well as investing in women being trained to shepherd others (we call them counselors and coaches, but they are functioning as the Greek poimenas /pastor/ shepherd, especially to women that have been hurt by others, often men, in the church. (there is so much that can be discussed on this alone, ie the prophetic!) This is for the building up and edifying of His Kingdom Church, His beautiful Bride!
I have a cousin, who serves together as elder with his wife. They were the first couple to do so in their CRC congregation and are now serving a second time together. I see this as an example of the beautiful collaboration Paul encourages for husbands and wives in 1 Tim 3, based on Ephesians 5:21-33. I am working on a post for the CRC Network's June theme "Sent Together" that I hope to wrap up in the next day or two. Sent Together | CRC Network
Here's a recommendation specifically for women's voices that I made back in 2018 to Synod, that I might agree with your adapted solution more than you think... It's a whole story, but the Synodical committee created in response to this overture was not able to publicly address this recommendation further for a number of reasons. They discussed it, and ran into difficulty, and so no further recommendation resulted on the following specific recommendation included in sterk_overture_2.pdf
EXCERPT:
F. Encourage practical ways to increase the number of women’s voices in dealing with situations of abuse, since the significant majority of those affected are women.
Specific grounds for this recommendation include that when women’s voices are silenced or not heard, decisions are often made by the men that lack sensitivity to the women’s perspective. There is a reason the “good old boys club” is a common phrase, but “the good old girls club” does not have a similar familiarity. The church is called to be a priesthood of all believers; the contribution of the women’s voice is essential and indispensable, and the mission of the church is hindered when the women are disrespected and silenced. This is not about women having a title; this is about the women’s (overtures 291 Agenda for Synod 2018) voices being asked for and listened to, especially on behalf of women who have been harmed. Otherwise, the “voiceless” do not get heard. It would be very beneficial for women to connect with a formal female authority that can advocate on their behalf. How can the CRC establish formal channels of input for women and ensure that they are given permission to use those channels? If there is only one woman in the room, do not assume that they have entered the conversation at the same level as the men, as they may not necessarily feel safe enough to voice their thoughts (see Jen Wilkin @ 45 minutes; Advance 2017, General Session #2, ACTS 29 conference; November 2017; https://vimeo.com/243476316). EOQ
On Nobody's Mother, I have not read most of it. I was aware of it and just recently skimmed through it as well using the General Index to help me skim. I have read various reviews on it. I did contact Sandra directly about one of my concerns. I do appreciate her careful attention to Artemis of Ephesus specifically, however Paul lumps all of them together! He doesn't seem to care about the details of who's who in the pagan mythological pantheon, just how he can rhetorically repurpose Greek words in ways that resonate with the cultural context, using some of his training as a rhetorician. I have found this to be brilliant, fascinating and profound!
I partially agree with Sandra's conclusion, her primary focus is on Artemis, which is helpful, but limited in scope of the entire toxic pantheon of false religions that Ephesus is inundated with! I believe that Paul is repurposing "soter" in 1 Timothy and other letters to not only counter Artemis' title of savior, but also other goddesses such as Cybele, considered a savior as well, but in a different way.
The false teaching is a very pervasive problem, I find far more than Sandra suggests. Rev 2:2 letter to the Church of Ephesus also includes a reference to false teachers.
The Magic/witchcraft goes significantly beyond Artemis. I see no mention of Hecate triple goddess of witchcraft by Sandra. A future post on women and witchcraft expands on this more.
I agree with Sandra that Paul is referring to literal childbirth, where so many women died giving birth in Ephesus. The rates are estimated between 10-25% of women did not survive giving birth based on archeological evidence of graves. These women were literally praying to Artemis (& possibly Hecate and Cybele) to save them from dying in childbirth, or for a quick, painless death if that was their fate. I do not agree (but believe it is possible) that all believing mothers were miraculously saved during this time in this context/community, but Paul was pointing to trust God and Jesus as their Savior. A future post on women and childbirth expands on this.
Continue to test everything. Your responses and concerns are much appreciated. I really honor people who are trying to be true to God's Word, seeking His Kingdom first, and I can see how various "plain and clear" English translations of various Greek words support the comp view of men and women. I have my own personal journey on how my view shifted which I might share at some point. Maybe an epilogue!
Cameron, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are welcome to leave a comment with any conservative challenges you are thinking of for further discussion. I do try to respond to concerns raised in comments and I always appreciate other insights and perspectives.
I have thought about compiling something refuting negative reviews by scholars of egalitarian books for a post series appendix or something.
This series is mostly presenting evidence and support in a positive manner instead of responding to various specific scholars on their positions. There has been much written on this "notoriously challenging passage"*** and especially the hapax "authentein", but some aspects have been missed or neglected and that is what I'm trying to focus on sharing for the most part.
For now, I'm mostly working on making a case for the pervasive syncretic religious toxic cultural context of Ephesus that fuels a proliferation of false teaching: 50+ pagan deities, numerous Jewish influences, early Gnostic beliefs, along with sharing insights on the Greek words Paul uses, especially the more rare and unusual words. Also, the impact of the many new converts from pagan cults such as Artemis, that Timothy is trying to minister with here.
I alluded to some scholars and theologians, but I don't generally name them. I do specifically refer to Köstenberger in PART 10 re the Greek "oude" used in 1 Tim 2:12.
Thank you, Cameron, for following up and doing your own reading and research! If you read through the "Getting the Whole Picture" series to this point and related comments, I mention from time to time to test everything and encourage everyone to be a Berean (Acts 17) Topical Bible: Bereans
The CRC Network policy is that the first comment on this forum has to be verified to make sure it's not a bot type response. So if you are new to the CRC Network and haven't commented before that could be a reason why your comments didn't show up earlier.
The official CRC position recognizes and honors both views. And I get why! Here's a bit of history if you would like to get a better understanding of how the CRC arrived with that decision. Women in Ecclesiastical Office | Christian Reformed Church
I'm going to respond more fully to your questions about prophecy and the article you shared after I read it. It might be a few days, but I appreciate your heart to search for God's truth, your questions and suggestions! That's part of what makes the Family of God so beautiful, deep and rich!
Thanks Anna, for reading and asking a great question!
Test everything! Be a Berean! I am very thankful that there is tangible evidence and support to show the dramatic morphing / shift of authentein over 2500 years! I find it amazing and fascinating and heartbreaking!
We all have different perspectives for how we prioritize different factors in determining the meaning of what Paul meant. That's part of the reason why the CRC has a dual position on this!
For me, expanding the purpose of the letter to include a lens of Paul addressing, confronting and correcting the pagan influence "myths and endless genealogies" and related false teachings, helped clear up a lot of the long-term confusion around this hotly contested passage that has been described by multiple scholars and theologians as one of the most difficult passages of scripture.
The shift of meaning of authentein is complex and even though there are a few rare hints of the shift to neutral before Paul, honestly, I don't see positive uses before Paul when we look at the context where they were used.
Even if Paul had any of those few neutral possibilities in mind in his letter to Timothy, the meaning would be negative when put into the context of 1 Tim 2:12 of a woman's attitude / relationship toward a man as believers. If Paul had the authentein meaning used in astrology/zodiac predictions in mind, it would be a negative action for a woman to rule/lord over a man (Similar to what Jesus already warned his disciples against in Matthew 20:25, and Peter repeats).
If Paul had in mind the meaning that authentein meant authored or originated based on another neutral use before Paul, and saying that a woman is not teach that she is or act as the originator of man that would be negative as well - there are hints of a creation reversal belief that women were created before men connected to pagan cults, gnostic beliefs as well as some Jewish philosophy; also in some goddess cults, women believed they had superior spiritual insight/wisdom. The creation reversal contradicts God's created order, that might be why Paul corrects the order in v13-14.
I will share more on these creation reversal beliefs in the PARTS coming up addressing Created Order with more reasons why a negative meaning fits and flows with Paul's letter while a positive meaning of authentein generated confusion, inconsistency, etc. over the ages.
Paul gives us a pretty strong context of false teaching connected to pagan beliefs /culture in this letter that gives us the confidence that he is addressing and correcting problematic behavior and teaching by a woman. He uses strong language multiple times, including authentein, that might have been fairly shocking to Timothy. Fascinating fact: the hapax androphonos translated murderer that Paul uses in 1 Tim 1:9 is also one of the lesser-known names/description of Aphrodite (killer of men)!
The more I dig and discover (pray, ponder, process), the more the pieces fit together with the various contexts, Scripture, God's principles, etc. as I test it, and I can't ignore or dismiss it.
I hope that helps answer your question a bit.
God's beautiful and biblical design for His family will be shared in a future post and to some extent, it is a blend of comp and egal, not an either /or, but both / and.
Regarding prophecy... Here's the short answer... based on 1 Cor 14:1-3; recognizing preaching and prophecy are 2 distinct functions / Greek words, with some overlap, however they seem to get conflated in the reformed tradition. Scripture seems pretty clear women can prophesy: Anna, Deborah Philip's daughters, Joel 2/ Acts 2, I Cor 11
So what is prophecy? After the completion of canon, prophecy is speaking God's truth into/ for a specific time, place, person/people, situation for the building up, edification, correcting, rebuking, if necessary, of God's Kingdom Church. Generally, it is more "forth telling" than "fore telling". How is this truth discerned? That's an entire discussion on its own, but we are always to test it, not despise it per 1 Thessalonians 5.
Cognate: 4395prophēteúō (from 4253/pró, "before" and 5346/phēmí, "assert by elevating one statement over another") – properly, "speak forth" in divinely-empowered forthtelling or foretelling; prophesy.
In the NT, prophesy (4395/prophēteúō) occurs 28 times, usually of forthtelling which reveals the mind (message) of God in a particular situation. 4395/prophēteúō ("prophesy") can also refer to foretelling, i.e. predicting the future as the Lord reveals it.
Foretelling and Forthtelling
Although prediction is included (for example John 11:51; Revelation 11:3), most occurrences stress forthtelling—Spirit-empowered proclamation that exposes hearts, exhorts, and consoles. “He who prophesies speaks to men for edification, encouragement, and comfort” (1 Corinthians 14:3). Thus prophecy is less about timetable speculation and more about present application of divine truth.
There is so much more about prophecy that rarely gets talked about in the reformed traditions for various reasons...
On your CC article and "clear teaching"... Regarding women in the Church, unfortunately it seems biases/traditions of man/elders viewing women as inferior have nullified God's word on what women are allowed to do. God specifically warns His Kingdom Church / Family of this possibility and we are not immune. In addition to that, we have a responsibility to study the rare words used in Scripture, especially those used only one time! Unfortunately, the hapax authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 caused a lot of confusion after Paul as various groups co-opted and used it in various contexts! So what seems to be "clear" in the English now, has quite a history of confusion. General "authority" did not become the primary translation until after the 1900's. It is not the clear and common historical understanding before that.
Also, it is a common concern from the comp camp that allowing women to be ordained in the church opens the door to accepting same sex marriage. Unfortunately there seems to be a correlation because a common argument to support both is using the original cultural context to limit certain difficult scripture to a particular time and place as you suggest in your article. That is not the direction I am going. Original cultural context does matter, especially for the rare words used in Scripture, and helps us better understand the meaning as originally intended, but there still is a universal principle as well. There is much more I can share on this but want to keep this somewhat brief as well. We cannot use the same sex marriage discussion to dismiss the cultural context evidence in the ongoing views regarding women in the Church. They need to be addressed separately and they seem to end up a bit conflated.
and a book? Probably not on just this topic, but I am working on something that is broader and covers multiple principles of faith that I wrestled with in various ways and this would possibly be a chapter or two.
thanks for sharing these thoughts... there are some huge gaps and a systemic shift needed to take back what we/Church have abdicated in various ways. There are glimpses, but there is also a long way to go! Keep praying and sharing!
"institutional survival" gets a lot of energy and resources at the expense of loving one another! I serve on the board of a county wide prayer center, and our philosophy is there is one church in our county, many expressions. Somehow over the ages, the Family of God has been fractured into separate groups, denoms, streams, various divisions regarding theology, etc. but we are one Family!
also, it seems gifting is often elevated over character...
these misalignments can create an emphasis on competing, comparing and controlling instead of cooperation and sharing the responsibilities together.
Here is one example of a gap / abdication to some debatable extent:
The bread part is easy, make a bunch of sandwiches and hand them out on the streets, in the alleys, at the encampments, churches, groups do this all the time!
The housing part, not so simple! This takes individuals and a community!
I met with someone today about housing for our unhoused neighbors. That's our responsibility as the Followers of Christ and the collective Kingdom Church. Isaiah 58 tells us to open our homes for the homeless / outcasts... The NIV and a few other versions tone down our responsibility from the Hebrew with "provide the poor wanderer with shelter"... vs "bring the poor and homeless into your home" (Berean Standard Bible) The NIV gives permission for a more impersonal, comfortable and convenient limited duty / relationship of dropping off someone at the local homeless shelter, while the Hebrew is a far messier, personal long term relationship taking people into our own homes.
It's both / and, but, like the good Samaritan, if we leave someone in an institutional place to get help first, we should also go back to follow up for discipleship and possibly take them into our homes if/when appropriate, depending on the dynamics of the situation.
There is a line in the Peter Hollen's version of God Help the Outcasts, of the attitudes of some of the more privileged toward the less privileged outcasts:
May God's Family, His Kingdom Church, do the very opposite and love them, find them, and see how precious and priceless each "outcast" image bearer of God is!
HALLELUYAH! The work of the Holy Spirit is powerful in transforming us through the renewal of our minds. As we celebrate Pentecost this week, may we all experience the continued outpouring of love and infilling of the Spirit in us in whatever ways we need for God's glory and our good!
Thanks for sharing this for a much-needed discussion.
Finding one's identity is a huge focus for many people, including non-Christians. I see it in movies, I hear it in secular gatherings and conversations. Sometimes it seems the world gets this better than the Church.
God gives us permission for a wide spectrum of expression of our faith and worship, but it seems He is shifting us from more transactional expressions to more relational expressions.
FYI: I shared the chart of authentein Scripture translations in PART 7 comments as that usage entirely CONTEXT 1 - people to people relationships... Getting the Whole Picture, Part 7: The Shift Continues | CRC Network So if you are interested, check out the comments in PART 7.
I hope to drop a list of 100+ Chrysostom's uses (around 70 uses are CONTEXT 3 related to God as some form of Absolute Sovereignty) in the comments here later for anyone who might be interested. This list is something that I could not find anywhere else, other than some references to Chrysostom using authente in several sermons related to 1 Timothy 2 and husband/wife relations. But thanks to TLG, I could compile Chrysostom's 100+ uses, then drop them into AI to translate into English to help me with context and meaning. Coming soon... but might be a few days as the format from excel does not copy into the comments coherently!
1 Creative/legislative authority over laws / Homily 7; PG 48, p758, ln56; / John 5:17 / αὐθεντίαν / Jesus = Father / God the Father / positive
2 Christ's authentia is supreme, not inferior / Homily 8; PG 48, p769, ln48; / Matt 20:20-23 / αὐθεντίας / seats of honor / Jesus Christ / positive /
3 (spurious per TLG?) / Irresistible mastery over paradise /death / Homily 9; PG 48, p782, ln 48; / Luke 23:43 / αὐθεντίᾳ / thief on cross / Jesus Christ / positive
4 originating absolute authority / command over life/death / Homily 9; PG 48, p783, ln27; / John 11 / αὐθεντίας / raising of Lazarus / Jesus Christ / positive
5 Divine sovereignty and equality / Homily 10; PG 48, p787, ln48; / αὐθεντίας / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
6 full, autonomous divine mastery over punishment/reward. / Homily 10; PG 48, p787, ln55; / Matt 25:41 / αὐθεντίας / fire for devil/angels / Jesus Christ / positive
7 exalted divine lordship, masterful rule over judgment / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln11; / Matt 25:34, 41-46 / αὐθεντίας / judgment / eternity / Jesus Christ / positive
8 Sovereign legislative/ judicial authority; Originating Divine power / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln18; / Matt 9:2-6, Matt 5-7 / αὐθεντίας, / Rhetorical question / Jesus Christ / positive
9 Supreme authoritative teaching of Scripture as Divine equal w Lawgiver / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln38; / Matt 5:17-20 / αὐθεντίας / OT laws / Jesus Christ / positive
10 Foundational, originating Divine authority / Homily 10; PG 48, p792, ln1; / Matt 28:18; Mark 1:27 / αὐθεντίας / sovereign actions / Jesus Christ / positive
11 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln48; / John 5:19-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίας / αὐθεντίαν; / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
12 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln49; / John 5:19-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίας αὐθεντίαν; / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
13 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln62; / Gen 1:26 / αὐθεντίαν / NT & OT harmony / Jesus Christ / positive
14 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p800, ln29; Phil 2:6-8, / Hebr 1:3 / αὐθεντίαν / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
15 Superior authority / sovereignty / mastery over all / Homily 11; PG 48, p804, ln16; / Matt 5:1-20, 4:23-24; John 21:25 / αὐθεντίας / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
16 Lordly, Supreme mastery (not servile) / Homily 12; PG 48, p809, ln31; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
18 Authentia belongs to superiors, inferiors cannot usurp it / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln10; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Father/Son share authentia / Jesus Christ / positive
19 Authoritative equality w the Father / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln31; / John 5:15-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Proof of Christ's sovereignty / Jesus Christ / positive
20 Authoritative equality w the Father / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln35; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Christ's actions = proof / Jesus Christ / positive
Posted in: Does God Speak Through Imagination?
Thanks for sharing Mavis. I was just chatting with my neighbor yesterday afternoon, and she was sharing how much she appreciates Sonlights' women's bible studies!
Creativity and imagination are closely related. As image bearers of our Creator, we have been given that ability to create in various ways, using our minds to imagine stories in powerful ways, including in music.
Several similar stories that have been very meaningful to me include imagining being the centurion at the cross with his soldiers and how that changed their lives, what they said to their families when they got home, what the centurion said to Pilate, what he might have said to his soldiers. I had over 8 hours as I was driving through the night imagining the impact of crucifying Jesus on the centurion and his men. It was very powerful! I still cry when I think about it.
I imagined Jesus speaking to one of the soldiers that nailed him to the cross and what might have been said between the two that was never recorded, as the soldier realizes he is the one that should die for his sin instead of Jesus.
I imagined being Nicodemus with Joseph and the women honoring and preparing Jesus' body for burial with spices, Nicodemus who had been secretive coming to Jesus at night, now being open with his belief in Jesus, they were on holy ground...
Stories through music:
I love Don Francisco's songs that are stories of imagining - my favorite is He's Alive (told from Peter's perspective) Gaither Vocal Band - He's Alive (lyrics), Jehoshaphat is another great one, Adam, Where are you? I Gotta tell Somebody... Great songs that help bring a deeper appreciation of some stories in Scripture.
also Ray Boltz Watch the Lamb from the point of Simon of Cyrene who carried Jesus' cross...
I love to use anointing/essential oils, frankincense, myrrh, spikenard, sandalwood, fragrances that would have been familiar in Jesus' time when I'm pondering, processing, praying... Amazon.com : abba jerusalem anointing prayer oil
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
Bless you, what a beautiful expression of agape love. Caregiving is the noble "episkope" in 1 Tim 3:1!
I said it "might" be a few days ;)
Look forward to what you want to share regarding your interest on this! Would love to hear your thoughts on "Nobody's Mother" as well!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
No apologies needed! When you have space and time to read, process and respond. No hurry!
There are so many unpredictable situations that arise, God knows and His Divine timing/Providence is amazing!!! Your priority is your amazing and beautiful wife. I read your bio here (68) J. Cameron Fraser - Independent Researcher
You both have been courageous forerunners and on the front lines of our Kingdom battle (especially for life and truth) against the powers of darkness and spiritual warfare attacks from the enemy in your journey together!
I was able to access a few pages of your document on the CRC, women, deacons (Thanks! I am going to re-read the 1973 Synod report on women). I would love the entire document if there is another way for me to access it (otherwise I will purchase it via TREN). AND if/when you are up for it, would love a debrief / follow up from you after 23 years and how your recommendations worked in practical places/congregations, the pros, the cons. From the little bit I could glean and what you shared in your previous response, I think we are actually pretty close in possible ways to give women a voice at the council table, and beyond, because for me personally, this is not about office, titles, positions or power, this is primarily about women's voices being included at the table, especially on behalf of women, as well as investing in women being trained to shepherd others (we call them counselors and coaches, but they are functioning as the Greek poimenas /pastor/ shepherd, especially to women that have been hurt by others, often men, in the church. (there is so much that can be discussed on this alone, ie the prophetic!) This is for the building up and edifying of His Kingdom Church, His beautiful Bride!
I have a cousin, who serves together as elder with his wife. They were the first couple to do so in their CRC congregation and are now serving a second time together. I see this as an example of the beautiful collaboration Paul encourages for husbands and wives in 1 Tim 3, based on Ephesians 5:21-33. I am working on a post for the CRC Network's June theme "Sent Together" that I hope to wrap up in the next day or two. Sent Together | CRC Network
Here's a recommendation specifically for women's voices that I made back in 2018 to Synod, that I might agree with your adapted solution more than you think... It's a whole story, but the Synodical committee created in response to this overture was not able to publicly address this recommendation further for a number of reasons. They discussed it, and ran into difficulty, and so no further recommendation resulted on the following specific recommendation included in sterk_overture_2.pdf
EXCERPT:
F. Encourage practical ways to increase the number of women’s voices in dealing with situations of abuse, since the significant majority of those affected are women.
Specific grounds for this recommendation include that when women’s voices are silenced or not heard, decisions are often made by the men that lack sensitivity to the women’s perspective. There is a reason the “good old boys club” is a common phrase, but “the good old girls club” does not have a similar familiarity. The church is called to be a priesthood of all believers; the contribution of the women’s voice is essential and indispensable, and the mission of the church is hindered when the women are disrespected and silenced. This is not about women having a title; this is about the women’s (overtures 291 Agenda for Synod 2018) voices being asked for and listened to, especially on behalf of women who have been harmed. Otherwise, the “voiceless” do not get heard. It would be very beneficial for women to connect with a formal female authority that can advocate on their behalf. How can the CRC establish formal channels of input for women and ensure that they are given permission to use those channels? If there is only one woman in the room, do not assume that they have entered the conversation at the same level as the men, as they may not necessarily feel safe enough to voice their thoughts (see Jen Wilkin @ 45 minutes; Advance 2017, General Session #2, ACTS 29 conference; November 2017; https://vimeo.com/243476316). EOQ
On Nobody's Mother, I have not read most of it. I was aware of it and just recently skimmed through it as well using the General Index to help me skim. I have read various reviews on it. I did contact Sandra directly about one of my concerns. I do appreciate her careful attention to Artemis of Ephesus specifically, however Paul lumps all of them together! He doesn't seem to care about the details of who's who in the pagan mythological pantheon, just how he can rhetorically repurpose Greek words in ways that resonate with the cultural context, using some of his training as a rhetorician. I have found this to be brilliant, fascinating and profound!
I partially agree with Sandra's conclusion, her primary focus is on Artemis, which is helpful, but limited in scope of the entire toxic pantheon of false religions that Ephesus is inundated with! I believe that Paul is repurposing "soter" in 1 Timothy and other letters to not only counter Artemis' title of savior, but also other goddesses such as Cybele, considered a savior as well, but in a different way.
The false teaching is a very pervasive problem, I find far more than Sandra suggests. Rev 2:2 letter to the Church of Ephesus also includes a reference to false teachers.
The Magic/witchcraft goes significantly beyond Artemis. I see no mention of Hecate triple goddess of witchcraft by Sandra. A future post on women and witchcraft expands on this more.
I agree with Sandra that Paul is referring to literal childbirth, where so many women died giving birth in Ephesus. The rates are estimated between 10-25% of women did not survive giving birth based on archeological evidence of graves. These women were literally praying to Artemis (& possibly Hecate and Cybele) to save them from dying in childbirth, or for a quick, painless death if that was their fate. I do not agree (but believe it is possible) that all believing mothers were miraculously saved during this time in this context/community, but Paul was pointing to trust God and Jesus as their Savior. A future post on women and childbirth expands on this.
Continue to test everything. Your responses and concerns are much appreciated. I really honor people who are trying to be true to God's Word, seeking His Kingdom first, and I can see how various "plain and clear" English translations of various Greek words support the comp view of men and women. I have my own personal journey on how my view shifted which I might share at some point. Maybe an epilogue!
Look forward to a response in HIS time!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
Cameron, thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are welcome to leave a comment with any conservative challenges you are thinking of for further discussion. I do try to respond to concerns raised in comments and I always appreciate other insights and perspectives.
I have thought about compiling something refuting negative reviews by scholars of egalitarian books for a post series appendix or something.
This series is mostly presenting evidence and support in a positive manner instead of responding to various specific scholars on their positions. There has been much written on this "notoriously challenging passage"*** and especially the hapax "authentein", but some aspects have been missed or neglected and that is what I'm trying to focus on sharing for the most part.
For now, I'm mostly working on making a case for the pervasive syncretic religious toxic cultural context of Ephesus that fuels a proliferation of false teaching: 50+ pagan deities, numerous Jewish influences, early Gnostic beliefs, along with sharing insights on the Greek words Paul uses, especially the more rare and unusual words. Also, the impact of the many new converts from pagan cults such as Artemis, that Timothy is trying to minister with here.
I alluded to some scholars and theologians, but I don't generally name them. I do specifically refer to Köstenberger in PART 10 re the Greek "oude" used in 1 Tim 2:12.
*** excerpt from review on Nobody’s Mother: Artemis of the Ephesians in Antiquity and the New Testament - The Gospel Coalition
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
Thank you, Cameron, for following up and doing your own reading and research! If you read through the "Getting the Whole Picture" series to this point and related comments, I mention from time to time to test everything and encourage everyone to be a Berean (Acts 17) Topical Bible: Bereans
The CRC Network policy is that the first comment on this forum has to be verified to make sure it's not a bot type response. So if you are new to the CRC Network and haven't commented before that could be a reason why your comments didn't show up earlier.
The official CRC position recognizes and honors both views. And I get why! Here's a bit of history if you would like to get a better understanding of how the CRC arrived with that decision. Women in Ecclesiastical Office | Christian Reformed Church
I'm going to respond more fully to your questions about prophecy and the article you shared after I read it. It might be a few days, but I appreciate your heart to search for God's truth, your questions and suggestions! That's part of what makes the Family of God so beautiful, deep and rich!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
Thanks Anna, for reading and asking a great question!
Test everything! Be a Berean! I am very thankful that there is tangible evidence and support to show the dramatic morphing / shift of authentein over 2500 years! I find it amazing and fascinating and heartbreaking!
We all have different perspectives for how we prioritize different factors in determining the meaning of what Paul meant. That's part of the reason why the CRC has a dual position on this!
For me, expanding the purpose of the letter to include a lens of Paul addressing, confronting and correcting the pagan influence "myths and endless genealogies" and related false teachings, helped clear up a lot of the long-term confusion around this hotly contested passage that has been described by multiple scholars and theologians as one of the most difficult passages of scripture.
The shift of meaning of authentein is complex and even though there are a few rare hints of the shift to neutral before Paul, honestly, I don't see positive uses before Paul when we look at the context where they were used.
Even if Paul had any of those few neutral possibilities in mind in his letter to Timothy, the meaning would be negative when put into the context of 1 Tim 2:12 of a woman's attitude / relationship toward a man as believers. If Paul had the authentein meaning used in astrology/zodiac predictions in mind, it would be a negative action for a woman to rule/lord over a man (Similar to what Jesus already warned his disciples against in Matthew 20:25, and Peter repeats).
If Paul had in mind the meaning that authentein meant authored or originated based on another neutral use before Paul, and saying that a woman is not teach that she is or act as the originator of man that would be negative as well - there are hints of a creation reversal belief that women were created before men connected to pagan cults, gnostic beliefs as well as some Jewish philosophy; also in some goddess cults, women believed they had superior spiritual insight/wisdom. The creation reversal contradicts God's created order, that might be why Paul corrects the order in v13-14.
I will share more on these creation reversal beliefs in the PARTS coming up addressing Created Order with more reasons why a negative meaning fits and flows with Paul's letter while a positive meaning of authentein generated confusion, inconsistency, etc. over the ages.
Paul gives us a pretty strong context of false teaching connected to pagan beliefs /culture in this letter that gives us the confidence that he is addressing and correcting problematic behavior and teaching by a woman. He uses strong language multiple times, including authentein, that might have been fairly shocking to Timothy. Fascinating fact: the hapax androphonos translated murderer that Paul uses in 1 Tim 1:9 is also one of the lesser-known names/description of Aphrodite (killer of men)!
The more I dig and discover (pray, ponder, process), the more the pieces fit together with the various contexts, Scripture, God's principles, etc. as I test it, and I can't ignore or dismiss it.
I hope that helps answer your question a bit.
God's beautiful and biblical design for His family will be shared in a future post and to some extent, it is a blend of comp and egal, not an either /or, but both / and.
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 9: Summary of The Shift
Curious which bio you are referring to? The CRC Do Justice website? Bev Sterk | Christian Reformed Church
Regarding prophecy... Here's the short answer... based on 1 Cor 14:1-3; recognizing preaching and prophecy are 2 distinct functions / Greek words, with some overlap, however they seem to get conflated in the reformed tradition. Scripture seems pretty clear women can prophesy: Anna, Deborah Philip's daughters, Joel 2/ Acts 2, I Cor 11
So what is prophecy? After the completion of canon, prophecy is speaking God's truth into/ for a specific time, place, person/people, situation for the building up, edification, correcting, rebuking, if necessary, of God's Kingdom Church. Generally, it is more "forth telling" than "fore telling". How is this truth discerned? That's an entire discussion on its own, but we are always to test it, not despise it per 1 Thessalonians 5.
the following from Bible hub: Strong's Greek: 4395. προφητεύω (prophéteuó) -- To prophesy, to speak forth by divine inspiration, to predict
Cognate: 4395 prophēteúō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 5346 /phēmí, "assert by elevating one statement over another") – properly, "speak forth" in divinely-empowered forthtelling or foretelling; prophesy.
In the NT, prophesy (4395 /prophēteúō) occurs 28 times, usually of forthtelling which reveals the mind (message) of God in a particular situation. 4395 /prophēteúō ("prophesy") can also refer to foretelling, i.e. predicting the future as the Lord reveals it.
Foretelling and Forthtelling
Although prediction is included (for example John 11:51; Revelation 11:3), most occurrences stress forthtelling—Spirit-empowered proclamation that exposes hearts, exhorts, and consoles. “He who prophesies speaks to men for edification, encouragement, and comfort” (1 Corinthians 14:3). Thus prophecy is less about timetable speculation and more about present application of divine truth.
There is so much more about prophecy that rarely gets talked about in the reformed traditions for various reasons...
On your CC article and "clear teaching"... Regarding women in the Church, unfortunately it seems biases/traditions of man/elders viewing women as inferior have nullified God's word on what women are allowed to do. God specifically warns His Kingdom Church / Family of this possibility and we are not immune. In addition to that, we have a responsibility to study the rare words used in Scripture, especially those used only one time! Unfortunately, the hapax authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 caused a lot of confusion after Paul as various groups co-opted and used it in various contexts! So what seems to be "clear" in the English now, has quite a history of confusion. General "authority" did not become the primary translation until after the 1900's. It is not the clear and common historical understanding before that.
Also, it is a common concern from the comp camp that allowing women to be ordained in the church opens the door to accepting same sex marriage. Unfortunately there seems to be a correlation because a common argument to support both is using the original cultural context to limit certain difficult scripture to a particular time and place as you suggest in your article. That is not the direction I am going. Original cultural context does matter, especially for the rare words used in Scripture, and helps us better understand the meaning as originally intended, but there still is a universal principle as well. There is much more I can share on this but want to keep this somewhat brief as well. We cannot use the same sex marriage discussion to dismiss the cultural context evidence in the ongoing views regarding women in the Church. They need to be addressed separately and they seem to end up a bit conflated.
and a book? Probably not on just this topic, but I am working on something that is broader and covers multiple principles of faith that I wrestled with in various ways and this would possibly be a chapter or two.
Posted in: The Titanic Warning: Is Your Leadership Sinking the Mission?
thanks for sharing these thoughts... there are some huge gaps and a systemic shift needed to take back what we/Church have abdicated in various ways. There are glimpses, but there is also a long way to go! Keep praying and sharing!
"institutional survival" gets a lot of energy and resources at the expense of loving one another! I serve on the board of a county wide prayer center, and our philosophy is there is one church in our county, many expressions. Somehow over the ages, the Family of God has been fractured into separate groups, denoms, streams, various divisions regarding theology, etc. but we are one Family!
also, it seems gifting is often elevated over character...
these misalignments can create an emphasis on competing, comparing and controlling instead of cooperation and sharing the responsibilities together.
Here is one example of a gap / abdication to some debatable extent:
Isaiah 58:7 Isn't it to share your bread with the hungry, to bring the poor and homeless into your home, to clothe the naked when you see him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
The bread part is easy, make a bunch of sandwiches and hand them out on the streets, in the alleys, at the encampments, churches, groups do this all the time!
The housing part, not so simple! This takes individuals and a community!
I met with someone today about housing for our unhoused neighbors. That's our responsibility as the Followers of Christ and the collective Kingdom Church. Isaiah 58 tells us to open our homes for the homeless / outcasts... The NIV and a few other versions tone down our responsibility from the Hebrew with "provide the poor wanderer with shelter"... vs "bring the poor and homeless into your home" (Berean Standard Bible) The NIV gives permission for a more impersonal, comfortable and convenient limited duty / relationship of dropping off someone at the local homeless shelter, while the Hebrew is a far messier, personal long term relationship taking people into our own homes.
It's both / and, but, like the good Samaritan, if we leave someone in an institutional place to get help first, we should also go back to follow up for discipleship and possibly take them into our homes if/when appropriate, depending on the dynamics of the situation.
There is a line in the Peter Hollen's version of God Help the Outcasts, of the attitudes of some of the more privileged toward the less privileged outcasts:
They fear them, flee them, try not to see them... God Help The Outcasts
May God's Family, His Kingdom Church, do the very opposite and love them, find them, and see how precious and priceless each "outcast" image bearer of God is!
Posted in: Life in the Spirit Begins Between Your Ears: Romans 8:5-12
HALLELUYAH! The work of the Holy Spirit is powerful in transforming us through the renewal of our minds. As we celebrate Pentecost this week, may we all experience the continued outpouring of love and infilling of the Spirit in us in whatever ways we need for God's glory and our good!
Posted in: Who is the Christian Reformed Church Today?
Thanks for sharing this for a much-needed discussion.
Finding one's identity is a huge focus for many people, including non-Christians. I see it in movies, I hear it in secular gatherings and conversations. Sometimes it seems the world gets this better than the Church.
God gives us permission for a wide spectrum of expression of our faith and worship, but it seems He is shifting us from more transactional expressions to more relational expressions.
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 8: The Shift Continues, Contexts 2 and 3
Thanks for reading!
FYI: I shared the chart of authentein Scripture translations in PART 7 comments as that usage entirely CONTEXT 1 - people to people relationships... Getting the Whole Picture, Part 7: The Shift Continues | CRC Network So if you are interested, check out the comments in PART 7.
I hope to drop a list of 100+ Chrysostom's uses (around 70 uses are CONTEXT 3 related to God as some form of Absolute Sovereignty) in the comments here later for anyone who might be interested. This list is something that I could not find anywhere else, other than some references to Chrysostom using authente in several sermons related to 1 Timothy 2 and husband/wife relations. But thanks to TLG, I could compile Chrysostom's 100+ uses, then drop them into AI to translate into English to help me with context and meaning. Coming soon... but might be a few days as the format from excel does not copy into the comments coherently!
Posted in: Getting the Whole Picture, Part 8: The Shift Continues, Contexts 2 and 3
I'm going to share the long list of Chrysostom's 100+ uses over several comments...
Meaning / CHRYSOSTOM Source/Ref / Greek / Context / Referent / POS/NEG/NEUTRAL
Usages in Chrysostom' s Contra (Against) Anomoes
1 Creative/legislative authority over laws / Homily 7; PG 48, p758, ln56; / John 5:17 / αὐθεντίαν / Jesus = Father / God the Father / positive
2 Christ's authentia is supreme, not inferior / Homily 8; PG 48, p769, ln48; / Matt 20:20-23 / αὐθεντίας / seats of honor / Jesus Christ / positive /
3 (spurious per TLG?) / Irresistible mastery over paradise /death / Homily 9; PG 48, p782, ln 48; / Luke 23:43 / αὐθεντίᾳ / thief on cross / Jesus Christ / positive
4 originating absolute authority / command over life/death / Homily 9; PG 48, p783, ln27; / John 11 / αὐθεντίας / raising of Lazarus / Jesus Christ / positive
5 Divine sovereignty and equality / Homily 10; PG 48, p787, ln48; / αὐθεντίας / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
6 full, autonomous divine mastery over punishment/reward. / Homily 10; PG 48, p787, ln55; / Matt 25:41 / αὐθεντίας / fire for devil/angels / Jesus Christ / positive
7 exalted divine lordship, masterful rule over judgment / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln11; / Matt 25:34, 41-46 / αὐθεντίας / judgment / eternity / Jesus Christ / positive
8 Sovereign legislative/ judicial authority; Originating Divine power / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln18; / Matt 9:2-6, Matt 5-7 / αὐθεντίας, / Rhetorical question / Jesus Christ / positive
9 Supreme authoritative teaching of Scripture as Divine equal w Lawgiver / Homily 10; PG 48, p788, ln38; / Matt 5:17-20 / αὐθεντίας / OT laws / Jesus Christ / positive
10 Foundational, originating Divine authority / Homily 10; PG 48, p792, ln1; / Matt 28:18; Mark 1:27 / αὐθεντίας / sovereign actions / Jesus Christ / positive
11 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln48; / John 5:19-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίας / αὐθεντίαν; / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
12 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln49; / John 5:19-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίας αὐθεντίαν; / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
13 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p799, ln62; / Gen 1:26 / αὐθεντίαν / NT & OT harmony / Jesus Christ / positive
14 Supreme authority / sovereignty / mastery / Homily 11; PG 48, p800, ln29; Phil 2:6-8, / Hebr 1:3 / αὐθεντίαν / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
15 Superior authority / sovereignty / mastery over all / Homily 11; PG 48, p804, ln16; / Matt 5:1-20, 4:23-24; John 21:25 / αὐθεντίας / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
16 Lordly, Supreme mastery (not servile) / Homily 12; PG 48, p809, ln31; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / contra ESS / Jesus Christ / positive
17 Co-equal Divine authority / Homily 12; PG 48, p809, ln35; / John 5:17 / αὐθεντίαν / Divine equality / Jesus Christ / positive
18 Authentia belongs to superiors, inferiors cannot usurp it / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln10; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Father/Son share authentia / Jesus Christ / positive
19 Authoritative equality w the Father / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln31; / John 5:15-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Proof of Christ's sovereignty / Jesus Christ / positive
20 Authoritative equality w the Father / Homily 12; PG 48, p810, ln35; / John 5:18-23, 10:30 / αὐθεντίαν / Christ's actions = proof / Jesus Christ / positive