I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
Hi Rob, thanks for continuing to engage in this discussion (here we are on page TWO of comments!) and pursue reading some of the work that has been recently published...
I engaged directly with Sandra Glahn a little bit, as I disagreed with her emphasis on Artemis while ignoring the 50 other gods/goddesses in the Ephesus region (part of Phrygia, now western Turkey). Some of these goddesses were considered "magna maters"... The Mother of all Gods: The Phrygian Cybele | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)
yes, there has been confusion over the ages of the Greek Artemis & Artemis of the Ephesians... lots of overlap, but some specific distinctions as well. Cybele (Phrygian origins) has often been conflated with Artemis which has added to the confusion. Hecate had her own altar/idol in the temple of Artemis in Ephesus... lots of syncretism going on!
The biggest gap to me is not recognizing the witchcraft/sorcery (ie Hecate the crone goddess of witchcraft) that was rampant in this region and that is a key factor in the lens Paul & Timothy are looking through & dealing with as false teaching. Theologians are avoiding the witchcraft factor for some reason, not denying it (Acts 19:19 is in the bible after all, & it is specifically in EPHESUS), but ignoring it almost completely for the most part for a significant part of the context of 1 Timothy it seems! Sandra does the same!
I did check out Denny Burke's review on her book as well... oh my, very problematic - LOTS OF FALSE STATMENTS... both sides still seem to miss the fact that Jesus says NO ONE is to EXCERCISE AUTHORITY over others in the Body of Christ! Why have we spent a lot of time and ink on whether only women should not exercise authority over men & very little time on that Jesus says NONE OF US are to exercise authority, in Matt 21:25-26, over men or women? So, whether authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 means exercise authority or not (& I believe Paul meant something considerably different**), no one is contesting that exercise authority is what Jesus meant in Matthew, with no gender limitations, yet we ignore this verse! Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
Most egalitarians do not see men and women as androgynous, but recognize holistic differences... however, traditionally, women have been considered inferior in various ways & this included the thinking of the church fathers. To say this lens of inferiority regarding women didn't influence how they interpreted scripture would be & has been harmful to the Body of Christ for far too long. Recognizing women as equal & created in the image of God has mostly been since the 1970's.
I believe the 59 "one another" commands are the lens of how we love our brothers and sisters in the Lord. I think we need to use the language of "serving" a lot more than focusing on "leaders" or "pastors" & "authority" and "submission"
I believe collaboration/cooperation/sharing responsibilities as we work together (synergeo/co-laboring) is a far better translation/understanding of the Greek word "hupotasso" instead of submit in the non military context of relationships in the family & church...
I believe intentionally praying together consistently will help shift the power dynamics to "one another" instead of authority over...
I believe how women (especially women's input/voice) have been traditionally limited in the Body of Christ is an example of how traditions of man/elders have nullified God's word, which God warns us can happen!
Until we understand it's not about authority and power over, we will continue to cheat the Ekklesia of the full richness of fellowship walking in God's ways with one another as the family of God!
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
just to be clear 67% of respondents said they had experienced it... that doesn't mean 67% of leaders abuse their power... we don't have a stat on that at all that I'm aware of... and at this point, we can't say there is a direct correlation... maybe, maybe not... but there has been very little research done on this... it has been deeply hidden for decades... (that's another discussion, but just think Catholic church, and there are similar patters in the protestant, sad to say)
It is very sad Roger, that in regard to abuse and victims, the Church is far too often doing exactly the opposite of what God calls us to do, and I grieved for 4 years as I was discovering how sick we are and how often this has been going on... if we go to a doctor and the doctor tells us we have cancer, or something serious, most usually take immediate steps to address it (recognizing some are at the point where their quality of life is more important than trying to extend their life and that is each person's choice)... however with spiritual cancer, or whatever disease/epidemic we compare it to, the church has been "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"... not healthy, and it has left us in a very dysfunctional state. so heart breaking... as Christians, we love the Bride of Christ, and to see her in the state she is in, grieves us greatly.
This is our watch Roger! What are we doing to make her healthy again? How are we helping bring healing for those who have deep soul wounds, that are still festering and infected because of what happened to them and how the church responded, far too often, very poorly and often adding to the hurt (most victims will say the response after reporting it was far more hurtful, and destroyed their trust more than the original incident)...
however, God's way is confess your sins one to another and He will heal us... are we willing to put down our arrogance and pride and be honest with ourselves and recognize the state we are in? not saying there isn't any good, just like a person with cancer... they might have a healthy heart, good brain, be physically fit, etc. but if they don't deal with the cancer??? none of that will matter... so we are asking God to consume the dross and refine the gold... we have both...
God is gracious and merciful. I believe He is giving the CRC opportunities to be forthright... It is a time for honest lament AND authentic repentance. Again, this is our watch... how are we responding? I'm not trusting leaders to lead this... that would be great if they did, but historically that has not been the case to a significant extent... I continue to see resistance... but I also see the priesthood of ALL believers stepping up more and more... and I believe that is the healthy response God has in mind for us... however, leaders do have a choice and their support and equipping of the priesthood of all believers would be much appreciated, instead of continued resistance and silence. I am NOT saying all leaders are resisting... but until I witness genuine support from some key leaders, I will continue to note the resistance.
There have been several warning shots across the bow (Willow Creek, Southern Baptists, Mars Hill, etc), are we taking heed?
I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer (my testimony on Do justice refers to that a bit), there is no way I could have submitted the overture without His leading and God knew that and strengthened my relationship with HIm preparing me for these battles...
I believe He is empowering and equipping the priesthood of all believers to do what's right! Are we heeding His leading? this is our watch!
Bless your heart. I'm so sorry for the way you were treated... wow... I hope you continue to use your voice, to help heal and to help others heal... I pray blessing, that you will experience how the Lord gives you a crown of beauty for ashes, and a garment of praise for your pain and the oil of joy for your grief... He always trades up...
I'm aware of similar stories, and similarly, how something like this gets minimized and dismissed by leaders, when someone's body and soul were violated... how the pastor is viewed as more important than the person harmed... this exposes the idolatry in how we view those in that office. sadly, the office of pastor has been misused for the pastor's own selfish pleasure and then when that pastor is not held accountable by his peers, the trust in that office deteriorates even more... now it's not just the original individual, but a group of leaders that biblically are called to protect the harmed and seek justice on their behalf and instead are doing the very opposite... further harming the person and betraying the sacred trust that was already violated, and instead protecting the one who did the harm in the first place... just mind blowing how the response cannot be any more opposite of what God calls us to do... this ungodly response is "lording it over"... protecting and benefiting those in power at the expense of those harmed... so wrong! and that is why the trust in leadership, especially with the younger generations is almost gone. and the continued actions of leaders is doing very little, if anything to restore that trust... trust is earned, it was given freely by many to the office of pastor, and it was seriously betrayed and exploited and then often covered up, etc. Forgiveness does not restore trust, only truly genuine repentance and restitution, making things right and doing what's right. the ball is in the leaders court to restore trust. Forgiveness only opens the door for that possibility... any action to restore trust is up to the leaders... and many are waiting... and many are disappointed and have walked away from the institutional church, and I don't blame them.
Very interesting discussion via the comments, appreciate the many insights, but also indicative of the significant gap in the understanding of abuses... and the impact it has on those harmed...
someone mentioned in the comments how we all have different lens to look at this, and i think the context was justifying the response of leadership in this woman's situation... sadly, the lens some leaders are looking at abuse through, is a lens of porn... porn distorts peoples view of other people, often treating women as objects instead of being respected and treated with dignity because women are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God... porn warps the brain, warps attitudes and warps behavior... the decision process is no longer capable of sound judgment, but has warped and distorted views of women, gratifying selfish pleasures, and when we focus on indulging the flesh, our reasoning deteriorates... when over 50% of pastors are struggling with porn, how can we trust their judgment?
also... sadly, but indicatively... in a survey, 96% of victims of domestic violence who went to the church for help would NOT recommend going to the church for help... while in another survey 80+% of pastors say that that their church is a safe place for domestic violence victims... HUGE disconnect here... why?
Oh, as Kelly said, we have so much to learn about abuses and leadership and we are in the early stages of that process... Father forgive us, Lord have mercy, Holy Spirit help us...
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Thanks Kelly, appreciate your input and all your work in this area over the years, especially in 2016...
Transference/emotional affairs can be a significant concern when there is counseling or some other emotional connection between the pastor and parishioner... I'm not sure how much this is recognized or understood. It seems to be more of a problem the more charismatic a pastor is? I've only heard one pastor ever mention this... otherwise... crickets... wonder why? is this discussed in seminary? in the informal meetings when pastors get together for breakfast? are pastors aware of this and taking advantage of transference at the ignorance/expense of the rest of the congregation? Are some pastors meeting their emotional needs through this transference? which is spiritual abuse and exploitation by the way...
I'm somewhat familiar with Brad's/futurist guy material and appreciate it, and think his work is very helpful to understand the power dynamics of leadership... I appreciated his analysis of an unhealthy system via the pyramid of abuse with the various levels of perpetrator, perpetuators, procurators and pawns... and how this cover up/ lack of accountability happens... and sadly, this is what i've witnessed in many of the various situations I'm directly aware of.
I am curious on the 2% of leaders abuse their power stat... what I've found is significantly higher... ie. various surveys results indicate that 30-40% of pastors have had inappropriate sexual activity/contact with someone (this is what I call abuse of power on the individual level). In the Catholic church, Richard Sipe (former priest, worked w Catholic clergy for 30 years as a mental health professional) estimated 50% of the leaders were not celibate based on his work... with 6%-20% acted out on molesting children... the rest of the sexual abuse of power has been with adults... which has barely been recognized yet in the Catholic scandal. This doesn't even address non-sexual abuses of power/lording it over/controlling & manipulative leadership on an individual level which happens to all different degrees.
Then the percentage of those who abuse power (or are negligent with their authority) grows with the response of leadership that does not hold the leader accountable and instead responds with some form of "circle the wagons" , cover up, damage control, collusion, you get the idea... (this is what I call abuse of power on the institutional or systemic level). again, the 30%-40% does not include those who spiritually abuse in other ways such as via manipulation, domineering/lording it over leadership, or using political power plays and posturing to influence and intimidate... it's quite likely the same 30-40% who have been sexually inappropriate are doing this as well, but only God knows the percentage of those who abuse their power in other ways besides sexual assault, to control, and to cover up and protect leadership at the expense of those harmed, the victims who are often treated as expendable, compared to the leader.
in my experience, conversations with clergy about this response (or lack of response) by leadership are NOT welcomed by most (I do recognize a better response from women leaders generally speaking, but that's not a given either). Hopefully this is changing... in 2014 Synod DID adopt the recommendation "abuse is acknowledged as an important issue and can be freely discussed". Sounds good on paper, but to what extent that has been actually happening is very debatable... there's a lot of times where the response from leadership is silence and the advocates, victims and families who speak about it are treated as a persona non grata... but that's an entire discussion on it's own.
oh wait... i wrote an overture for that reason... http://dojustice.crcna.org/article/story-behind-abuse-overture
Wes' story is heartbreaking, and his family still struggles and have been deeply affected with what happened and the harmful response of leadership at all levels. Wes found his healing and peace on July 7, 2006, but his family still hurts, Wes' family has given me full permission to share anything from Wes' and their story of his journey, and I honor that by sharing about Wes as I believe it would be helpful to the CRC to do what's right and learn from our past mistakes... and the patterns of resistance from leadership that Wes and his family and advocates experienced, is sadly not unique to their journey seeking justice. It's systemic... and it's still happening... I hope it's changing... I think it is... I believe it is... Thank God!
That's right, i forgot about this interesting article based on the first survey recently completed on spiritual abuse... the estimate of those who have experienced spiritual abuse in some way, shape or form... based on 1500 respondents...
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!
Posted in: A Christian Discussion on Women in Office
Hi Rob, thanks for continuing to engage in this discussion (here we are on page TWO of comments!) and pursue reading some of the work that has been recently published...
I engaged directly with Sandra Glahn a little bit, as I disagreed with her emphasis on Artemis while ignoring the 50 other gods/goddesses in the Ephesus region (part of Phrygia, now western Turkey). Some of these goddesses were considered "magna maters"... The Mother of all Gods: The Phrygian Cybele | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)
yes, there has been confusion over the ages of the Greek Artemis & Artemis of the Ephesians... lots of overlap, but some specific distinctions as well. Cybele (Phrygian origins) has often been conflated with Artemis which has added to the confusion. Hecate had her own altar/idol in the temple of Artemis in Ephesus... lots of syncretism going on!
The biggest gap to me is not recognizing the witchcraft/sorcery (ie Hecate the crone goddess of witchcraft) that was rampant in this region and that is a key factor in the lens Paul & Timothy are looking through & dealing with as false teaching. Theologians are avoiding the witchcraft factor for some reason, not denying it (Acts 19:19 is in the bible after all, & it is specifically in EPHESUS), but ignoring it almost completely for the most part for a significant part of the context of 1 Timothy it seems! Sandra does the same!
I did check out Denny Burke's review on her book as well... oh my, very problematic - LOTS OF FALSE STATMENTS... both sides still seem to miss the fact that Jesus says NO ONE is to EXCERCISE AUTHORITY over others in the Body of Christ! Why have we spent a lot of time and ink on whether only women should not exercise authority over men & very little time on that Jesus says NONE OF US are to exercise authority, in Matt 21:25-26, over men or women? So, whether authentein in 1 Tim 2:12 means exercise authority or not (& I believe Paul meant something considerably different**), no one is contesting that exercise authority is what Jesus meant in Matthew, with no gender limitations, yet we ignore this verse! Strong's Greek: 2715. κατεξουσιάζω (katexousiazó) -- to exercise authority over (biblehub.com)
edit #2: I accidently used the wrong link earlier to the word that means lording it over in the same verse: Strong's Greek: 2634. κατακυριεύω (katakurieuo) -- I exercise authority over, overpower (biblehub.com) (**why did Paul not use this Greek(not Geek as I originally posted 😉) word instead of authentein, if exercise authority is what he meant in 1 Tim 2:12?)
Most egalitarians do not see men and women as androgynous, but recognize holistic differences... however, traditionally, women have been considered inferior in various ways & this included the thinking of the church fathers. To say this lens of inferiority regarding women didn't influence how they interpreted scripture would be & has been harmful to the Body of Christ for far too long. Recognizing women as equal & created in the image of God has mostly been since the 1970's.
I believe the 59 "one another" commands are the lens of how we love our brothers and sisters in the Lord. I think we need to use the language of "serving" a lot more than focusing on "leaders" or "pastors" & "authority" and "submission"
I believe collaboration/cooperation/sharing responsibilities as we work together (synergeo/co-laboring) is a far better translation/understanding of the Greek word "hupotasso" instead of submit in the non military context of relationships in the family & church...
I believe intentionally praying together consistently will help shift the power dynamics to "one another" instead of authority over...
I believe how women (especially women's input/voice) have been traditionally limited in the Body of Christ is an example of how traditions of man/elders have nullified God's word, which God warns us can happen!
Until we understand it's not about authority and power over, we will continue to cheat the Ekklesia of the full richness of fellowship walking in God's ways with one another as the family of God!
Posted in: Power: How Will We Use It?
Bless your hearts! so thankful for your work! Appreciate this information! will be sharing with Classis PNW!
Also, would like to encourage you to consider adding to your list of resources several more books that have come out in the last few years... Rachael Denhollander/What is a Girl Worth; Mary DeMuth/#WETOO; Ruth Everhart/#MeToo Reckoning... also, this is an older one... The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse (Johnson/Van Vonderen)...
and consider adding other presentations by Diane Langberg... she has some very insightful videos on her website & youtube... here's an example of a presentation on systemic narcissism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
just to be clear 67% of respondents said they had experienced it... that doesn't mean 67% of leaders abuse their power... we don't have a stat on that at all that I'm aware of... and at this point, we can't say there is a direct correlation... maybe, maybe not... but there has been very little research done on this... it has been deeply hidden for decades... (that's another discussion, but just think Catholic church, and there are similar patters in the protestant, sad to say)
It is very sad Roger, that in regard to abuse and victims, the Church is far too often doing exactly the opposite of what God calls us to do, and I grieved for 4 years as I was discovering how sick we are and how often this has been going on... if we go to a doctor and the doctor tells us we have cancer, or something serious, most usually take immediate steps to address it (recognizing some are at the point where their quality of life is more important than trying to extend their life and that is each person's choice)... however with spiritual cancer, or whatever disease/epidemic we compare it to, the church has been "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"... not healthy, and it has left us in a very dysfunctional state. so heart breaking... as Christians, we love the Bride of Christ, and to see her in the state she is in, grieves us greatly.
This is our watch Roger! What are we doing to make her healthy again? How are we helping bring healing for those who have deep soul wounds, that are still festering and infected because of what happened to them and how the church responded, far too often, very poorly and often adding to the hurt (most victims will say the response after reporting it was far more hurtful, and destroyed their trust more than the original incident)...
however, God's way is confess your sins one to another and He will heal us... are we willing to put down our arrogance and pride and be honest with ourselves and recognize the state we are in? not saying there isn't any good, just like a person with cancer... they might have a healthy heart, good brain, be physically fit, etc. but if they don't deal with the cancer??? none of that will matter... so we are asking God to consume the dross and refine the gold... we have both...
God is gracious and merciful. I believe He is giving the CRC opportunities to be forthright... It is a time for honest lament AND authentic repentance. Again, this is our watch... how are we responding? I'm not trusting leaders to lead this... that would be great if they did, but historically that has not been the case to a significant extent... I continue to see resistance... but I also see the priesthood of ALL believers stepping up more and more... and I believe that is the healthy response God has in mind for us... however, leaders do have a choice and their support and equipping of the priesthood of all believers would be much appreciated, instead of continued resistance and silence. I am NOT saying all leaders are resisting... but until I witness genuine support from some key leaders, I will continue to note the resistance.
There have been several warning shots across the bow (Willow Creek, Southern Baptists, Mars Hill, etc), are we taking heed?
I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and prayer (my testimony on Do justice refers to that a bit), there is no way I could have submitted the overture without His leading and God knew that and strengthened my relationship with HIm preparing me for these battles...
I believe He is empowering and equipping the priesthood of all believers to do what's right! Are we heeding His leading? this is our watch!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Bless your heart. I'm so sorry for the way you were treated... wow... I hope you continue to use your voice, to help heal and to help others heal... I pray blessing, that you will experience how the Lord gives you a crown of beauty for ashes, and a garment of praise for your pain and the oil of joy for your grief... He always trades up...
I'm aware of similar stories, and similarly, how something like this gets minimized and dismissed by leaders, when someone's body and soul were violated... how the pastor is viewed as more important than the person harmed... this exposes the idolatry in how we view those in that office. sadly, the office of pastor has been misused for the pastor's own selfish pleasure and then when that pastor is not held accountable by his peers, the trust in that office deteriorates even more... now it's not just the original individual, but a group of leaders that biblically are called to protect the harmed and seek justice on their behalf and instead are doing the very opposite... further harming the person and betraying the sacred trust that was already violated, and instead protecting the one who did the harm in the first place... just mind blowing how the response cannot be any more opposite of what God calls us to do... this ungodly response is "lording it over"... protecting and benefiting those in power at the expense of those harmed... so wrong! and that is why the trust in leadership, especially with the younger generations is almost gone. and the continued actions of leaders is doing very little, if anything to restore that trust... trust is earned, it was given freely by many to the office of pastor, and it was seriously betrayed and exploited and then often covered up, etc. Forgiveness does not restore trust, only truly genuine repentance and restitution, making things right and doing what's right. the ball is in the leaders court to restore trust. Forgiveness only opens the door for that possibility... any action to restore trust is up to the leaders... and many are waiting... and many are disappointed and have walked away from the institutional church, and I don't blame them.
Very interesting discussion via the comments, appreciate the many insights, but also indicative of the significant gap in the understanding of abuses... and the impact it has on those harmed...
someone mentioned in the comments how we all have different lens to look at this, and i think the context was justifying the response of leadership in this woman's situation... sadly, the lens some leaders are looking at abuse through, is a lens of porn... porn distorts peoples view of other people, often treating women as objects instead of being respected and treated with dignity because women are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God... porn warps the brain, warps attitudes and warps behavior... the decision process is no longer capable of sound judgment, but has warped and distorted views of women, gratifying selfish pleasures, and when we focus on indulging the flesh, our reasoning deteriorates... when over 50% of pastors are struggling with porn, how can we trust their judgment?
also... sadly, but indicatively... in a survey, 96% of victims of domestic violence who went to the church for help would NOT recommend going to the church for help... while in another survey 80+% of pastors say that that their church is a safe place for domestic violence victims... HUGE disconnect here... why?
Oh, as Kelly said, we have so much to learn about abuses and leadership and we are in the early stages of that process... Father forgive us, Lord have mercy, Holy Spirit help us...
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Roger... there have been so many comments for this discussion that the comments are now on Page 2! =) at least on my computer...
thankful to see the discussion going on here in a fairly respectful manner...
sadly, I'm personally aware of too many situations (recognizing even one is too many, but I'm aware of about a dozen in my very limited sphere, not including what is in the public sphere) where the leaders have protected the pastor/leader at the expense of the one harmed... that the leader is treated as more important than the person who does not have a title... that is favoritism and lack of impartiality... both unbiblical, let alone acquitting the guilty and deny justice to the innocent, also something God does not look favorably upon. at all. Yes, we can debate what action would be appropriate to the offense in this specific incident, but honestly as a woman, I would not be able to listen to or respect a "pastor" who assaults women in any way, shape or form and honestly this is the type of behavior that has caused many to lose trust in the office of pastor, and even more so when the person is not held accountable by other pastors. This destroys the trust in pastors and defiles the office, and sadly, we are reaping the lack of trust in pastors, because that is what has been sown by the actions that minimize and dismiss the seriousness of inappropriate behavior of someone who holds office as a pastor.
We are to be above reproach, some counselors will not even shake the hands of their clients to avoid any appearance of any impropriety... now, I'm NOT recommending that in the Church... but this minimizing of inappropriate behavior is part of the problem... leaders minimize porn. is porn on the same level as what this man did here? I have heard the seriousness of porn minimized and dismissed by leaders in the CRC more than I care to think about right now... ie "it doesn't hurt anyone" when the damages are devastating in so many ways... including objectification of women and distortions of attitudes and beliefs due to the warping of the mind that goes with viewing porn. and sadly, the current stats are 57% of pastors have a problem with it... whatever we are doing to address these inappropriate behaviors, is not working! Wish I had better news, but that % just keeps going the wrong direction... and my guess based on anecdotal evidence, etc. is it's probably understated... sadly porn spawns this type of behavior and worse...
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Thanks Kelly, appreciate your input and all your work in this area over the years, especially in 2016...
Transference/emotional affairs can be a significant concern when there is counseling or some other emotional connection between the pastor and parishioner... I'm not sure how much this is recognized or understood. It seems to be more of a problem the more charismatic a pastor is? I've only heard one pastor ever mention this... otherwise... crickets... wonder why? is this discussed in seminary? in the informal meetings when pastors get together for breakfast? are pastors aware of this and taking advantage of transference at the ignorance/expense of the rest of the congregation? Are some pastors meeting their emotional needs through this transference? which is spiritual abuse and exploitation by the way...
I'm somewhat familiar with Brad's/futurist guy material and appreciate it, and think his work is very helpful to understand the power dynamics of leadership... I appreciated his analysis of an unhealthy system via the pyramid of abuse with the various levels of perpetrator, perpetuators, procurators and pawns... and how this cover up/ lack of accountability happens... and sadly, this is what i've witnessed in many of the various situations I'm directly aware of.
https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/pyramid-of-abuse-and-culpability-complicity/
Pyramid of Abuse (c) 2018 Brad Sargent
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
I am curious on the 2% of leaders abuse their power stat... what I've found is significantly higher... ie. various surveys results indicate that 30-40% of pastors have had inappropriate sexual activity/contact with someone (this is what I call abuse of power on the individual level). In the Catholic church, Richard Sipe (former priest, worked w Catholic clergy for 30 years as a mental health professional) estimated 50% of the leaders were not celibate based on his work... with 6%-20% acted out on molesting children... the rest of the sexual abuse of power has been with adults... which has barely been recognized yet in the Catholic scandal. This doesn't even address non-sexual abuses of power/lording it over/controlling & manipulative leadership on an individual level which happens to all different degrees.
Then the percentage of those who abuse power (or are negligent with their authority) grows with the response of leadership that does not hold the leader accountable and instead responds with some form of "circle the wagons" , cover up, damage control, collusion, you get the idea... (this is what I call abuse of power on the institutional or systemic level). again, the 30%-40% does not include those who spiritually abuse in other ways such as via manipulation, domineering/lording it over leadership, or using political power plays and posturing to influence and intimidate... it's quite likely the same 30-40% who have been sexually inappropriate are doing this as well, but only God knows the percentage of those who abuse their power in other ways besides sexual assault, to control, and to cover up and protect leadership at the expense of those harmed, the victims who are often treated as expendable, compared to the leader.
in my experience, conversations with clergy about this response (or lack of response) by leadership are NOT welcomed by most (I do recognize a better response from women leaders generally speaking, but that's not a given either). Hopefully this is changing... in 2014 Synod DID adopt the recommendation "abuse is acknowledged as an important issue and can be freely discussed". Sounds good on paper, but to what extent that has been actually happening is very debatable... there's a lot of times where the response from leadership is silence and the advocates, victims and families who speak about it are treated as a persona non grata... but that's an entire discussion on it's own.
oh wait... i wrote an overture for that reason... http://dojustice.crcna.org/article/story-behind-abuse-overture
Wes' story is heartbreaking, and his family still struggles and have been deeply affected with what happened and the harmful response of leadership at all levels. Wes found his healing and peace on July 7, 2006, but his family still hurts, Wes' family has given me full permission to share anything from Wes' and their story of his journey, and I honor that by sharing about Wes as I believe it would be helpful to the CRC to do what's right and learn from our past mistakes... and the patterns of resistance from leadership that Wes and his family and advocates experienced, is sadly not unique to their journey seeking justice. It's systemic... and it's still happening... I hope it's changing... I think it is... I believe it is... Thank God!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
That's right, i forgot about this interesting article based on the first survey recently completed on spiritual abuse... the estimate of those who have experienced spiritual abuse in some way, shape or form... based on 1500 respondents...
67%!!
but again, only God know the actual percentage...
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/12-january/news/uk/spiritual-abuse-study-suggests-two-thirds-of-christians-could-be-victims
https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/12-january/comment/leader-comment/spiritual-abuse
Posted in: S.O.S. Sharing Our Stories
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
https://twitter.com/hashtag/WhyIDidntReport?src=hash
I trust God's timing for His leading in your healing through the power of the Holy Spirit!
Posted in: S.O.S. Amy's Story
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Posted in: S.O.S. My Sister's Story
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
Posted in: Caring for Parents Who Have a Child with a Disability
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!