I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!
the Holy Spirit can and will use anything to minister to anyone when He wants, even secular songs... songs that are still in the making, songs that are just seconds old or centuries old... is every song going to speak to everyone the same way, no, and even if we do get snobby about our music preference, He still can and does use it to melt our hearts... I remember walking into an Avalon concert with a very bad attitude -I would have preferred not to be there, and He melted and convicted me in less than one minute after the first song started... i was weeping so hard, i could not stop the entire concert and for well over a year afterward anytime i heard on the radio the song that the Holy Spirit used to melt and convict me, i would immediately start crying again, it was that powerful and life changing... and part of the message God put on my heart at that concert was "don't limit what I can use to minister to you"... He can use anything to minister to anyone. (and believe me, you can't work up any emotionalism in less than a minute of music, especially starting the bad attitude i walked in with)
thanks for elaborating Jeff... I find that interesting for a number of reasons...
also, back to the original question... if we are looking for a formula that works every time, ie. pray A, do B, say C, and then D happens, that's man's way... I think the part that is hard to grasp, is that it cannot be humanly manipulated or orchestrated. The Spirit is always in us, but His anointing upon us ebbs and flows at His will, that cannot be humanly orchestrated, only asked for and sought after through obedience and our relationship with God. ABC&D are key elements, but there is so much more. (it's kind of like my struggle with HC Q&A #83... what are the keys of the Kingdom... the HC gives 2- preaching and discipline, but I think there are many more that it doesn't mention).
as for the appreciative inquiry, Pete, I'm curious why you use this technique?
per Pete VB: Yet I have heard preaching (years ago) where Christ was the one who died for me so I owed Christ my good behaviour. eoq
isn't that the 3rd part of the HC... our service is a response of thanksgiving for what Jesus did? Or is thanksgiving different than we "owe" Him? That's another part of the HC I struggle with, yes, thanksgiving should/does prompt service/obedience/praise but what about because He is worthy? It's not only about what He has done or can do for us, but primarily because of Who He is! This is why the angels praise Him, they aren't praising out of a response of thanksgiving for their salvation.
I will say, in some of the messages I've heard/read where Christ was preached and the power of the Spirit was evident (at least for me), there was a focus on Rev. 5, Worthy is the Lamb... I've seen this focus with the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf, I see it as the fuel for night and day worship and prayer, Dan Henderson (Worship Encounters) shared that is the main reason we worship/pray, because He alone is worthy to receive all the glory! Because He deserves the reward of His suffering, our souls!
look forward to the rest of your "systematic" responses ; )... and pray God's blessing and anointing on you (and all the other pastors) as you prepare and preach His Word this week... we are praying for many to come to Christ (or experience that renewal John's friend testified of, through this Passion week!
per PVB: But now I'm the one bringing in topics not directly related to my own main question.
yeah, that's what a good question/discussion does... It's much broader than a simple answer =) and appreciate the insight you shared on the emotional aspect. I too think there is much more related to our "particular emotional stamp" or seeming lack thereof, and I believe this is part of the key to renewal in our denomination.
and Jeff''s comment (that both the emotions and intellect can be misleading, and maybe both should be valued to some extent) brings me back to my question from a previous comment:
...as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and instead the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
and if so, then I would also ask, how close are we to being in balance? and if we are not in balance, then why not?
then couple of other thoughts... this question is from David Bryant's book Christ is all! Is Jesus our mascot or our monarch? This has to do w. Pete's question: boq So, in the 'good' answer to my original question to start this conversation, we would need to include an explanation of the 'kind' of Christ we would need to hear about.eoq.
and as I'm reading Celebration of Discipline: The path to Spiritual Growth (Jeff's earlier comment on the spiritual disciplines was a good confirmation of this book)... here is a sentence from the worship chapter (p158)... "We can use all the right techniques and methods, we can have the best possible liturgy, but we have not worshipped the LORD until Spirit touches spirit."
So this goes back to the inner man, our spiritual senses, and being sensitive to what God is doing at that level, not just cognitively/intellectually.
I think what you are saying is we also need to "experience" God. I'm totally with you on that Brother! It's just in my experience, experience gets slammed (sometimes I wonder if it's almost considered the equivalent of entertainment and the 2 are being seen as synonymous), and is seen as a far lesser "knowledge" than the intellectual/cerebral. God is an experience, the Holy Spirit is an experience. There is no other way I can describe the encounters I have had, where I know that I know that I know, not in an intellectual way, but in a much deeper way in my inner being. The kind of knowing and experiencing God, that you would be willing to die for Him. It's not warm fuzzies... It's powerful!
When I raise the question is Jesus our monarch, or our mascot, the difference is, you would die for your monarch, but not for a mascot, the monarch is in charge of leading his troops, the mascot just comes out when the troops are a bit down, and helps get them cheered up but is not part of the real "game" going on, if Jesus is our monarch, our lives will be changed, if He is our mascot, we will still do what we want to do. hope that makes sense.
the verse that challenges me, is we have a form of godliness, but deny its power... which makes me think we cannot assume the orthopathy will happen, however only God can change hearts, so our role is prayer, praise, sharing as the Spirit leads (God can give us prophetic insight to help change hearts), being obedient to His promptings (which is an entire discussion in itself) and ??? I'm sure there are more...
Prayer is a key... I believe a key prayer is Eph. 1:17-18... open the eyes of our hearts LORD, and give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to know You more. I will share that the LORD gave me this prayer 5 times over the weekend He re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart. It was probably a bit like the renewal John's friend experienced. I'd been a believer all my life, grew up crc (and still am) but there was a significant change in my inner being that weekend which included a hunger to be in His Word like I had never experienced before. and yes, I too now believe much more fully in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit such as miraculous healing, tongues, prophecy (listening prayer), dreams, visions, etc. it was profound, powerful, and life changing. and I'm desperate for that "experience" for everyone, whether they all want it is another question and discussion.
Jeff, when i share on something that is in the orthopathy realm ie the emotions, spiritual gifts of prophecy, visions, dreams, praying in tongues, high praise, in the conservative tradtion, I get slammed, the responses often astound me (just letting you know, it doesn't go over very well) . It is resisted, it is viewed as pagan, from the enemy, it is viewed with disdain, scoffed at, terms such as "scary" "dangerous" "weird" are used, and it's almost considered heresy. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not. I am thankful that there are several of you more open to this, because I have found significant resistance, and I believe it is an intellectual stronghold we are up against. I could and would love to discuss this with you guys face to face, because then I could explain what I mean more clearly, because you might be thinking what in the world does she talk about, so there would be no misunderstandings as this topic can cause lots of them.
Again, I believe getting a biblical understanding of our inner man (orthopathy is part of that) is a key to renewal in our denomination. The concept of (spiritual) intimacy with Christ aka loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength makes some of us uncomfortable. We are in danger of flipping the priority of this command with loving our neighbor aka doing justice aka doing what's right, orthopraxy (and it's so subtle because justice is biblical, but not if it is out of order with loving God - I will say this is debatable, as I've heard arguments that say the orthopathy will come out of our orthodoxy and our orthopraxy - however, from my experience, when the orthodoxy and orthopraxy flow out of the orthopathy, there is night and day difference in the results, the results are things I could not have orchestrated if I tried, or would have resulted in significant frustration and effort on my part, and instead I see God move in ways beyond imagination, and it's easy for HIm. Instead of burnout being a problem, it is now warfare -(just saying that's my experience).
I believe we (conservative traditions) are missing something in our understanding/experience, and believe it has to do with spiritual formation, the orthopathy, the emotions, the Holy Spirit and His supernatural gifts. That's why I'm curious as to why pvb is using appreciative inquiry.
One specific way to possibly address this is to teach on the difference between being emotional and emotionalism, recognizing again, that only God can change the heart. Testimonies are another powerful tool God uses to help open up people's hearts.
I hope that makes sense, because there is so much here, and I cannot share all the details in what started out intending to be a brief =) comment, and so I pray that there is no misunderstanding in what I've shared. I could discuss this for hours... so if anyone is going to be at the crc prayer summit in a couple weeks, DV I would love to meet you there =)
Posted in: S.O.S. Sharing Our Stories
I am thankful to see this opportunity for people to share their stories anonymously... bless your brave hearts! know that I believe you! I hope and pray that this will be healing and helpful for everyone, but especially healing for those who have been harmed and helpful for those who have been unaware of these abuses going on and for those who have been part of the problem of silencing and covering these things up... and even the negative comments, confirm that exposing this bad behavior runs into much resistance and it's still out there... the negative comments bring these hidden attitudes into the light... thank you for being brave enough to share... even though this does get ugly, it's being exposed so it can be addressed... stay strong sisters and brothers who are choosing to share... and those who are considering it... Know that you are precious, priceless and beautiful! Your voice is a part of the far greater movement of bringing this unholy behavior into the light! thank you!
and for those who choose not to at this time (if ever)... you are not alone...
https://twitter.com/hashtag/WhyIDidntReport?src=hash
I trust God's timing for His leading in your healing through the power of the Holy Spirit!
Posted in: S.O.S. Amy's Story
Bless your heart Amy, I'm so sorry for what you experienced. Know that you are precious and priceless, even though you might not feel that way with how you have been treated. I have grieved over the state of the church over the appalling abusive behavior and the subsequent silencing and cover up from leaders on numerous situations. I hope and pray that through your therapist and the power of the Holy Spirit, you will find healing and wholeness again, not just emotionally and physically, but spiritually. It's a journey, with many ups and downs, and sharing your story is part of the journey... know that your voice is a part of this unprecedented movement exposing unhealthy and unholy actions and attitudes in the church and beyond, bringing healing to those who have been hurt and exposing the behavior of those who have been protected for far too long... so that these abuses and assaults can be addressed better, and those harmed protected instead of running into similar denial and resistance that you experienced... For His glory, and our good...
Posted in: S.O.S. My Sister's Story
Bless your hearts... I hope and pray, that your family is experiencing God's healing in your inner beings... that you know that you are a new creation in Christ, beautiful, spotless, pure and holy... as part of His family. The stories are heart breaking, but so necessary and I hope healing in some way for those who are sharing them as well as for others. Know that God is using your voice, on behalf of your sister and others that have similar experiences, to help bring justice to and refine His Bride, that the dross will be consumed... as these abusive situations are exposed, this unholy behavior will no longer be tolerated and those who do such will be held accountable, instead of protected... not out of vengeance, but to protect others that might be harmed in the future, and for their own souls.
Ironically, 80+% of pastors think their church is a safe place for DV victims... while... 96% of domestic violence (DV) victims that have gone to the church for help do NOT recommend going to the church. HUGE disconnect!
Posted in: Caring for Parents Who Have a Child with a Disability
looking forward to meeting you... will give you a call Saturday some time =)
Posted in: Caring for Parents Who Have a Child with a Disability
Dear Mr. Invisible, I would love to meet you (and your family) for coffee and talk about our mutual faith in Jesus... you live in the Lynden area, right? tell me when and where, and I (and maybe some of my family as well) will be there =)... been praying for you, bro!
Posted in: My Grandmother Saved It, My Mother Threw It Away, and Now I'm Buying It Back
the Holy Spirit can and will use anything to minister to anyone when He wants, even secular songs... songs that are still in the making, songs that are just seconds old or centuries old... is every song going to speak to everyone the same way, no, and even if we do get snobby about our music preference, He still can and does use it to melt our hearts... I remember walking into an Avalon concert with a very bad attitude -I would have preferred not to be there, and He melted and convicted me in less than one minute after the first song started... i was weeping so hard, i could not stop the entire concert and for well over a year afterward anytime i heard on the radio the song that the Holy Spirit used to melt and convict me, i would immediately start crying again, it was that powerful and life changing... and part of the message God put on my heart at that concert was "don't limit what I can use to minister to you"... He can use anything to minister to anyone. (and believe me, you can't work up any emotionalism in less than a minute of music, especially starting the bad attitude i walked in with)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
thanks for elaborating Jeff... I find that interesting for a number of reasons...
also, back to the original question... if we are looking for a formula that works every time, ie. pray A, do B, say C, and then D happens, that's man's way... I think the part that is hard to grasp, is that it cannot be humanly manipulated or orchestrated. The Spirit is always in us, but His anointing upon us ebbs and flows at His will, that cannot be humanly orchestrated, only asked for and sought after through obedience and our relationship with God. ABC&D are key elements, but there is so much more. (it's kind of like my struggle with HC Q&A #83... what are the keys of the Kingdom... the HC gives 2- preaching and discipline, but I think there are many more that it doesn't mention).
as for the appreciative inquiry, Pete, I'm curious why you use this technique?
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I pray that "renewal" be multiplied many times over in the Church... wake us up LORD!.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Because He is worthy! Worthy is the Lamb!
per Pete VB: Yet I have heard preaching (years ago) where Christ was the one who died for me so I owed Christ my good behaviour. eoq
isn't that the 3rd part of the HC... our service is a response of thanksgiving for what Jesus did? Or is thanksgiving different than we "owe" Him? That's another part of the HC I struggle with, yes, thanksgiving should/does prompt service/obedience/praise but what about because He is worthy? It's not only about what He has done or can do for us, but primarily because of Who He is! This is why the angels praise Him, they aren't praising out of a response of thanksgiving for their salvation.
I will say, in some of the messages I've heard/read where Christ was preached and the power of the Spirit was evident (at least for me), there was a focus on Rev. 5, Worthy is the Lamb... I've seen this focus with the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf, I see it as the fuel for night and day worship and prayer, Dan Henderson (Worship Encounters) shared that is the main reason we worship/pray, because He alone is worthy to receive all the glory! Because He deserves the reward of His suffering, our souls!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
amen! it is a delight, not a duty!...
look forward to the rest of your "systematic" responses ; )... and pray God's blessing and anointing on you (and all the other pastors) as you prepare and preach His Word this week... we are praying for many to come to Christ (or experience that renewal John's friend testified of, through this Passion week!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
per PVB: But now I'm the one bringing in topics not directly related to my own main question.
yeah, that's what a good question/discussion does... It's much broader than a simple answer =) and appreciate the insight you shared on the emotional aspect. I too think there is much more related to our "particular emotional stamp" or seeming lack thereof, and I believe this is part of the key to renewal in our denomination.
and Jeff''s comment (that both the emotions and intellect can be misleading, and maybe both should be valued to some extent) brings me back to my question from a previous comment:
...as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and instead the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
and if so, then I would also ask, how close are we to being in balance? and if we are not in balance, then why not?
then couple of other thoughts... this question is from David Bryant's book Christ is all! Is Jesus our mascot or our monarch? This has to do w. Pete's question: boq So, in the 'good' answer to my original question to start this conversation, we would need to include an explanation of the 'kind' of Christ we would need to hear about.eoq.
and as I'm reading Celebration of Discipline: The path to Spiritual Growth (Jeff's earlier comment on the spiritual disciplines was a good confirmation of this book)... here is a sentence from the worship chapter (p158)... "We can use all the right techniques and methods, we can have the best possible liturgy, but we have not worshipped the LORD until Spirit touches spirit."
So this goes back to the inner man, our spiritual senses, and being sensitive to what God is doing at that level, not just cognitively/intellectually.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think what you are saying is we also need to "experience" God. I'm totally with you on that Brother! It's just in my experience, experience gets slammed (sometimes I wonder if it's almost considered the equivalent of entertainment and the 2 are being seen as synonymous), and is seen as a far lesser "knowledge" than the intellectual/cerebral. God is an experience, the Holy Spirit is an experience. There is no other way I can describe the encounters I have had, where I know that I know that I know, not in an intellectual way, but in a much deeper way in my inner being. The kind of knowing and experiencing God, that you would be willing to die for Him. It's not warm fuzzies... It's powerful!
When I raise the question is Jesus our monarch, or our mascot, the difference is, you would die for your monarch, but not for a mascot, the monarch is in charge of leading his troops, the mascot just comes out when the troops are a bit down, and helps get them cheered up but is not part of the real "game" going on, if Jesus is our monarch, our lives will be changed, if He is our mascot, we will still do what we want to do. hope that makes sense.
the verse that challenges me, is we have a form of godliness, but deny its power... which makes me think we cannot assume the orthopathy will happen, however only God can change hearts, so our role is prayer, praise, sharing as the Spirit leads (God can give us prophetic insight to help change hearts), being obedient to His promptings (which is an entire discussion in itself) and ??? I'm sure there are more...
Prayer is a key... I believe a key prayer is Eph. 1:17-18... open the eyes of our hearts LORD, and give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to know You more. I will share that the LORD gave me this prayer 5 times over the weekend He re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart. It was probably a bit like the renewal John's friend experienced. I'd been a believer all my life, grew up crc (and still am) but there was a significant change in my inner being that weekend which included a hunger to be in His Word like I had never experienced before. and yes, I too now believe much more fully in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit such as miraculous healing, tongues, prophecy (listening prayer), dreams, visions, etc. it was profound, powerful, and life changing. and I'm desperate for that "experience" for everyone, whether they all want it is another question and discussion.
Jeff, when i share on something that is in the orthopathy realm ie the emotions, spiritual gifts of prophecy, visions, dreams, praying in tongues, high praise, in the conservative tradtion, I get slammed, the responses often astound me (just letting you know, it doesn't go over very well) . It is resisted, it is viewed as pagan, from the enemy, it is viewed with disdain, scoffed at, terms such as "scary" "dangerous" "weird" are used, and it's almost considered heresy. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not. I am thankful that there are several of you more open to this, because I have found significant resistance, and I believe it is an intellectual stronghold we are up against. I could and would love to discuss this with you guys face to face, because then I could explain what I mean more clearly, because you might be thinking what in the world does she talk about, so there would be no misunderstandings as this topic can cause lots of them.
Again, I believe getting a biblical understanding of our inner man (orthopathy is part of that) is a key to renewal in our denomination. The concept of (spiritual) intimacy with Christ aka loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength makes some of us uncomfortable. We are in danger of flipping the priority of this command with loving our neighbor aka doing justice aka doing what's right, orthopraxy (and it's so subtle because justice is biblical, but not if it is out of order with loving God - I will say this is debatable, as I've heard arguments that say the orthopathy will come out of our orthodoxy and our orthopraxy - however, from my experience, when the orthodoxy and orthopraxy flow out of the orthopathy, there is night and day difference in the results, the results are things I could not have orchestrated if I tried, or would have resulted in significant frustration and effort on my part, and instead I see God move in ways beyond imagination, and it's easy for HIm. Instead of burnout being a problem, it is now warfare -(just saying that's my experience).
I believe we (conservative traditions) are missing something in our understanding/experience, and believe it has to do with spiritual formation, the orthopathy, the emotions, the Holy Spirit and His supernatural gifts. That's why I'm curious as to why pvb is using appreciative inquiry.
One specific way to possibly address this is to teach on the difference between being emotional and emotionalism, recognizing again, that only God can change the heart. Testimonies are another powerful tool God uses to help open up people's hearts.
I hope that makes sense, because there is so much here, and I cannot share all the details in what started out intending to be a brief =) comment, and so I pray that there is no misunderstanding in what I've shared. I could discuss this for hours... so if anyone is going to be at the crc prayer summit in a couple weeks, DV I would love to meet you there =)