Bev Sterk
I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
per PVB: But now I'm the one bringing in topics not directly related to my own main question.
yeah, that's what a good question/discussion does... It's much broader than a simple answer =) and appreciate the insight you shared on the emotional aspect. I too think there is much more related to our "particular emotional stamp" or seeming lack thereof, and I believe this is part of the key to renewal in our denomination.
and Jeff''s comment (that both the emotions and intellect can be misleading, and maybe both should be valued to some extent) brings me back to my question from a previous comment:
...as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and instead the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
and if so, then I would also ask, how close are we to being in balance? and if we are not in balance, then why not?
then couple of other thoughts... this question is from David Bryant's book Christ is all! Is Jesus our mascot or our monarch? This has to do w. Pete's question: boq So, in the 'good' answer to my original question to start this conversation, we would need to include an explanation of the 'kind' of Christ we would need to hear about.eoq.
and as I'm reading Celebration of Discipline: The path to Spiritual Growth (Jeff's earlier comment on the spiritual disciplines was a good confirmation of this book)... here is a sentence from the worship chapter (p158)... "We can use all the right techniques and methods, we can have the best possible liturgy, but we have not worshipped the LORD until Spirit touches spirit."
So this goes back to the inner man, our spiritual senses, and being sensitive to what God is doing at that level, not just cognitively/intellectually.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think what you are saying is we also need to "experience" God. I'm totally with you on that Brother! It's just in my experience, experience gets slammed (sometimes I wonder if it's almost considered the equivalent of entertainment and the 2 are being seen as synonymous), and is seen as a far lesser "knowledge" than the intellectual/cerebral. God is an experience, the Holy Spirit is an experience. There is no other way I can describe the encounters I have had, where I know that I know that I know, not in an intellectual way, but in a much deeper way in my inner being. The kind of knowing and experiencing God, that you would be willing to die for Him. It's not warm fuzzies... It's powerful!
When I raise the question is Jesus our monarch, or our mascot, the difference is, you would die for your monarch, but not for a mascot, the monarch is in charge of leading his troops, the mascot just comes out when the troops are a bit down, and helps get them cheered up but is not part of the real "game" going on, if Jesus is our monarch, our lives will be changed, if He is our mascot, we will still do what we want to do. hope that makes sense.
the verse that challenges me, is we have a form of godliness, but deny its power... which makes me think we cannot assume the orthopathy will happen, however only God can change hearts, so our role is prayer, praise, sharing as the Spirit leads (God can give us prophetic insight to help change hearts), being obedient to His promptings (which is an entire discussion in itself) and ??? I'm sure there are more...
Prayer is a key... I believe a key prayer is Eph. 1:17-18... open the eyes of our hearts LORD, and give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to know You more. I will share that the LORD gave me this prayer 5 times over the weekend He re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart. It was probably a bit like the renewal John's friend experienced. I'd been a believer all my life, grew up crc (and still am) but there was a significant change in my inner being that weekend which included a hunger to be in His Word like I had never experienced before. and yes, I too now believe much more fully in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit such as miraculous healing, tongues, prophecy (listening prayer), dreams, visions, etc. it was profound, powerful, and life changing. and I'm desperate for that "experience" for everyone, whether they all want it is another question and discussion.
Jeff, when i share on something that is in the orthopathy realm ie the emotions, spiritual gifts of prophecy, visions, dreams, praying in tongues, high praise, in the conservative tradtion, I get slammed, the responses often astound me (just letting you know, it doesn't go over very well) . It is resisted, it is viewed as pagan, from the enemy, it is viewed with disdain, scoffed at, terms such as "scary" "dangerous" "weird" are used, and it's almost considered heresy. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not. I am thankful that there are several of you more open to this, because I have found significant resistance, and I believe it is an intellectual stronghold we are up against. I could and would love to discuss this with you guys face to face, because then I could explain what I mean more clearly, because you might be thinking what in the world does she talk about, so there would be no misunderstandings as this topic can cause lots of them.
Again, I believe getting a biblical understanding of our inner man (orthopathy is part of that) is a key to renewal in our denomination. The concept of (spiritual) intimacy with Christ aka loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength makes some of us uncomfortable. We are in danger of flipping the priority of this command with loving our neighbor aka doing justice aka doing what's right, orthopraxy (and it's so subtle because justice is biblical, but not if it is out of order with loving God - I will say this is debatable, as I've heard arguments that say the orthopathy will come out of our orthodoxy and our orthopraxy - however, from my experience, when the orthodoxy and orthopraxy flow out of the orthopathy, there is night and day difference in the results, the results are things I could not have orchestrated if I tried, or would have resulted in significant frustration and effort on my part, and instead I see God move in ways beyond imagination, and it's easy for HIm. Instead of burnout being a problem, it is now warfare -(just saying that's my experience).
I believe we (conservative traditions) are missing something in our understanding/experience, and believe it has to do with spiritual formation, the orthopathy, the emotions, the Holy Spirit and His supernatural gifts. That's why I'm curious as to why pvb is using appreciative inquiry.
One specific way to possibly address this is to teach on the difference between being emotional and emotionalism, recognizing again, that only God can change the heart. Testimonies are another powerful tool God uses to help open up people's hearts.
I hope that makes sense, because there is so much here, and I cannot share all the details in what started out intending to be a brief =) comment, and so I pray that there is no misunderstanding in what I've shared. I could discuss this for hours... so if anyone is going to be at the crc prayer summit in a couple weeks, DV I would love to meet you there =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Wow!... bless your heart.... that's what it seems to take to convince (conservative) believers of an expanded view of what the Holy Spirit will do, their own personal, powerful experience/encounter that they can't deny... thanks for sharing your testimony, believe you me... i have many questions I would love to ask you...
and great conclusion... it takes sensitivity and obedience to His promptings... preaching what He wants, where He wants, and when He wants... He will take care of the hearts of the listeners!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I Cor. 2:4-5... so how do you recognize the Spirit's power present in a worship service? I know when I do, and there are times He's pretty powerfully present because He ministers to me with numerous scriptures/statements that are made during the service, insights given during that time, that make total sense for where I'm at, but they might not make sense to anyone else in the same way, because they are at a different place in their walk. Some services there can be a dozen or more such "insights and coincidences"... So it's the Spirit's anointing on the planning, and on the speaking, and on the hearts of those listening... because sometimes it's words in a song, sometimes it's a scripture used somewhere else in the service, and often it will be several statements made in the main message. There are other indicators as well, but that's one of the main ones. Tears are generally a good indicator for me, that the Spirit is doing some deep ministering in my heart as well, and He can do this instantly, it's not through manipulation, or emotionalism. So it's a dynamic combination of what's going on in the service, as well as where each person is at, that only the Holy Spirit can orchestrate. So, each person's job is to be obedient with the role they have, and to listen and obey to what the Spirit is putting on their heart to share, choose, read, sing, play, whatever their involvement might be, and give Him the glory!
An example would be as I'm planning an extended worship time for Good Friday, I was working on arranging songs for several 30-60 minute sets, and then for one of the sets, started incorporating a devotional, a Messianic antiphonal reading based on Psalm 22 that I put together over last Lent. The 2 dovetailed together in a way I could not have orchestrated without pulling my hair out. I was stunned at how beautifully they flowed together with very little effort, the order of songs (each set has a key theme, and there were about 15 songs in this set). After I originally selected the songs for the set and put them in an intellectual order, I later re-arranged them somewhat by what key we'd be using, and by how they flowed together as I actually played them. So, last night as I pulled up the devotional from last year, and realized it was 5 pages long, my original plan to read it straight through at the beginning of the set changed. As I worked on integrating it into the songs, it was amazing to see how the 2 flowed together. I would say that was the power of the Spirit helping me, since I hadn't looked at the Psalm 22 devotional in almost a year. The next thing He helped me with was incorporating the full Isaiah 53 chapter into the devotional and therefore into the worship service as well. So I'm just amazed, now I have a devotional and a worship set that integrates Ps. 22/Christ's statements He made on the cross/Isaiah 53 and about a dozen worship songs focused on Jesus and His amazing love as we experience it through His sacrifice on the cross. That wasn't my amazing abilites as writing was not my forte =), so I'm thanking the Spirit for His help.
Now, I have no clue how He'll use this time of worsip next Friday (we're focusing on ministering to the lost and broken over Passover weekend), but I've been encouraged already through planning it and seeing His leading in that. One testimony we received a few months back when we did a similar extended time of worship, was from a woman in her 40's that had grown up in a very conservative church, and had since shifted to a much more charismatic stream, that the hymns/music we shared brought healing to her because they ministered to her, and reminded her in a positive way of the church she had grown up in, even though there had been lots of struggles and pain related to that. So, we just be obedient, and trust He is directing our thoughts and choices in ways that only He can do =) to bring Him glory, and through that He often ministers in ways that we have no clue about, and brings healing and through it.
Hope that makes sense in a I Cor. 2 way =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
It's possible there's a better term, and when people read "conservative" they might tend to think more of a political type... when I say conservative I think as opposed to a more charismatic type. So if you (or anyone else) have a better term for that type of believer/denomination, would love to hear it. I have found progressive types to still be conservative about the Holy Spirit. Now, I don't know if that's always the case, or even mostly the case, but I have found it to be the case in my experience. In fact, I have found believers with more conservative positions on certain theological issues, to be much more open to the Spirit, than the progressives I know. So I think we're using the "conservative" description for several categories. It's always good to get on the same page with our understanding of what we mean!
Posted in: Transposing Church Music
CCLI/song select has a place where you can change each song into any key, up or down, plus and minus an octave or more... I use it ALL the time... I also just found out how to print out the music from CCLI in a smaller format, so that the vocal printout version of songs is only 1-4 pages instead of 3-6 (normal print)... I love this because otherwise I'm turning pages all the time...
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
hmmm.. somehow my post showed up twice... so i hopefully am only deleting one!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
haha... we can maybe use "cerebral vs charismatic" =)...
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Jeff... I would be interested in a further elaboration on this point if you would be willing =)
BOQ...the area where we really lag is the mediating one of Orthopathy...right emotion, right affection, right passion. By this I mean not passing feelings so much as stable defining affections and passions, modelled after Gods own heart, defined by the gospel, which motivate us into orthopraxis. (Orthopathy, I would further say, is the domain of spiritual formation) This issue of Orthopathy is one which our denomination has often struggled with, often minimizing the role of affectivity in the Christian life. I also think it was a tangential but unspoken element in our recent debates concerning third wave pentecostalism EOQ. EOQEOQ
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
There is a time for each... both are scriptural... praise would more likely include the dancing and shouting, while deeper worship would be more subdued... Ezra 3:10-13 is an amazing example where both are happening at the same time! but it seems like we are mostly on the quiet (reserved?) side... and an attitude i run into about shouting for the LORD is that it is irreverent. WWWhen I've brought it up, that maybe we should shout to the LORD and make a joyful noise, like the Psalms say, these are several responses: I hope not, or why would we want to do that, that's not me - I'm not like that, I just don't get excited, or again, we were taught that's not reverent (maybe dignified?). I hear criticism for people raising their hands in church, that it is distracting... these types of praise are biblical concepts and i have heard lots of justifications for why we (crc) don't need to do the more outwardly expressive ones. We can shout in our hearts?!?!? I watch people spontaneously shout and jump when their team scores or something happens in their favor!.. it is an immediate reaction! and there is outward expression and it can be pretty intense! Why, oh why, can we not do that for the Lord (when appropriate of course)?
I know the Holy Spirit is way beyond labels, but for practical purposes, we definitely have those that are comfortable with their and other's emotions, and those that are not (think David dancing with all his might and his wife's embarrassment and which one did God honor =/). I have heard the reasoning before that we can't judge someone's joy just because they aren't always "jumping" around and shouting because they could be celebrating internally, but unfortunately, we are (almost) never jumping around (well at least in praise & worship, again, we don't seem to have the same problem at sporting events)...
When is the last time you heard someone (including yourself) in the reformed tradition shouting for the LORD? Really shouting, all out victory yell? I don't need to know, but I simply ask the question, because in our reformed tradition of worship I have never heard it happen. So as John Z says, it is about responding to God completely... and so I ask are we doing this? The next question is do people even want to be doing this if it might include some forms of expression (dancing/shouting) that they are not comfortable with (yet)?
Worthy is the Lamb! He deserves our highest praise! We want people to fully respond to God in praise and worship, but it seems there are some hindrances - I apologize if I seem critical, but I believe God wants us (reserved types as well less reserved types) to more fully experience Him in worship, He's got so much more for us... do we want it? will we want it if it includes dancing and shouting? It's not that we've been worshipping wrong, but I believe God wants to expand our worship experience, it is for His glory, and the more we glory in Him - enjoy Him, the more glory He receives (what is the chief end of man?)... I've heard pastors in the charismatic stream, say they wish there was more reverence in their worship... so it goes both ways!
I have my own testimony as well as reading/hearing others as the LORD has released them more fully into praise and worship... but I will confess, when I read Ruth Heflin's Glory, it is like a foreign language... I can agree with the comment... BOQ "when I was first given your book, I didn't understand a word of it... " and i have only experienced the second half of the comment in a limited way, but enought that my life has been radically changed - BOQ "... but now that I've been touched by revival, the understanding has come to my by revelation, and my life has been totally changed" eoq
God has to change hearts, but we need to be at least aware of some of these concepts, and we need to know that these concepts of praise are biblical instead of being critical and closing the door on them and ????. We need a frame of reference for what God is working on in us.
I apologize for my long posts... these are topics and concerns that I read and study about almost every day (reading Intercessory Worship by Dick Eastman, and Glory by Ruth Heflin, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, as well as a number of other books on worship, prayer), so I really could discuss this for days, as it ties in with the worship and prayer we have at the prayer center as well... I love your responses, your sharpening...
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is Hebr. 4:12... the Word is living and active... there is a dynamic reaction via the Holy Spirit that is going on between what is shared and what is received that is just beyond explanation.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
We tend to sit in the balcony, toward the back, so I can worship fairly freely with out getting the "look", and there's a little alcove that my daughter will dance in, where no one can see her unless they are right there... so that's how we try to limit the criticism of being a distraction. You are right, as we get more used to it, we will find it less distracting... we also have freedom at the prayer center to worship with dance, flags, etc... and at home of course =)...
That's an interesting question on Elijah and prophets of Baal... the story I think of is 2 Chron 20 - that while we worship, God can turn the enemy on each other (Ie story of 3 armies that were going to come against Jehoshaphat and ended up ambushing each other instead while Judah praised) and then Psalm 149:6-end... warfare can be a result of worship, (but it's not the primary reason), interestingly, Elijah did take the prophets down to the river to execute them. So not sure if that was to respect and honor the holy places of worship...
I just read this statment this morning in Dick E's book on Intercessory worship....BOQ "Reform" simply means "to change for the better" or "improve". It's not that all worship (and I would add prayer) in the Church today is deficient, but perhaps God wants to take us to higher heights and deeper depths of His glory. eoq p116
This resonates with what God is putting on my heart and what I'm seeing going on in our area. I believe God is calling us to dimensions of worship and prayer that we have not traditionally used much (if at all =) ie 24/7/continual worship and prayer as the Levites did in the days of King David... So being reformed, I think it helps to be aware that God wants to grow us in our worship and prayer to experience more of His glory for His glory. Personally for me, as i also read the book "Glory" by Ruth Heflin, i only have 2 worship experiences where I was undone in a profound way, and that gave me just a glimpse of what this "Glory" might be, otherwise it is foreign to me (so far). I know there is so much more of His glory that we can experience (on earth), and when we experience His glory, He gets the glory (just in case someone's thinking it's all about our experience - we experience His glory because He is God and He is a generous God, when we enjoy Him and delight in Him, He is glorified). I believe God is pointing me in that direction and giving me an awareness to search and ask for His glory (the song on the radio when I woke up this morning was "Show me Your Glory" by 3rd day). Other than those 2 experiences, my realm of experience doesn't have a clue what it's like, but I am now open and searching and have a frame of reference for what He is stirring up in my inner being - or "opening horizons of my soul". instead of wondering if I'm going off the deep end =)... not saying I get it yet -but He's got me digging into what it looks like to "enjoy" Him (Westminster), to delight in Him (Ps. 37:4), what (spiritual) intimacy with Christ looks like (yes, reading the Song of Songs even though the experts in the last 100 years or so are saying they no longer think it's an allegory of Christ and the Church or God and Israel - which was the common belief for centuries before that though) - concepts I would say the spock syndrom side of us has kind of stayed away from teaching on, at least not in-depth anyway since it seems to make us uncomfortable, but I firmly believe God's opening up new realms of worship and prayer for His Bride... so we can glory in His Holy Name for His Glory, more completely. What that looks like, well, it will probably be a life (eternal life?) long journey, but I'm on it!
So again, His glory is an entire discussion... in a nutshell... it's His Presence, which we can always experience at some level, you have the knowledge level that He is omnipresent, we have His presence in us as believers, and then you have His manifest presence aka revival type shekinah glory, and probably infinite levels in between and beyond.
sorry, Pete, you can jump in anytime and get us back to "preaching", but it is all related =)... at least to your original question on what makes worship valuable!!