I grew up in the CRC, and am still here, along with my family. I'm married to Daryl, who has a construction business. I had a CPA license for 10 or so years, then I added EX to the front, and MOM to the back, so now I'm an EX CPA, MOM =). I am MOM to Duncan, Ian and Samantha. Our family also owns a raspberry farm, and in the summers we get to work out there together.
I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is Hebr. 4:12... the Word is living and active... there is a dynamic reaction via the Holy Spirit that is going on between what is shared and what is received that is just beyond explanation.
We tend to sit in the balcony, toward the back, so I can worship fairly freely with out getting the "look", and there's a little alcove that my daughter will dance in, where no one can see her unless they are right there... so that's how we try to limit the criticism of being a distraction. You are right, as we get more used to it, we will find it less distracting... we also have freedom at the prayer center to worship with dance, flags, etc... and at home of course =)...
That's an interesting question on Elijah and prophets of Baal... the story I think of is 2 Chron 20 - that while we worship, God can turn the enemy on each other (Ie story of 3 armies that were going to come against Jehoshaphat and ended up ambushing each other instead while Judah praised) and then Psalm 149:6-end... warfare can be a result of worship, (but it's not the primary reason), interestingly, Elijah did take the prophets down to the river to execute them. So not sure if that was to respect and honor the holy places of worship...
I just read this statment this morning in Dick E's book on Intercessory worship....BOQ "Reform" simply means "to change for the better" or "improve". It's not that all worship (and I would add prayer) in the Church today is deficient, but perhaps God wants to take us to higher heights and deeper depths of His glory. eoq p116
This resonates with what God is putting on my heart and what I'm seeing going on in our area. I believe God is calling us to dimensions of worship and prayer that we have not traditionally used much (if at all =) ie 24/7/continual worship and prayer as the Levites did in the days of King David... So being reformed, I think it helps to be aware that God wants to grow us in our worship and prayer to experience more of His glory for His glory. Personally for me, as i also read the book "Glory" by Ruth Heflin, i only have 2 worship experiences where I was undone in a profound way, and that gave me just a glimpse of what this "Glory" might be, otherwise it is foreign to me (so far). I know there is so much more of His glory that we can experience (on earth), and when we experience His glory, He gets the glory (just in case someone's thinking it's all about our experience - we experience His glory because He is God and He is a generous God, when we enjoy Him and delight in Him, He is glorified). I believe God is pointing me in that direction and giving me an awareness to search and ask for His glory (the song on the radio when I woke up this morning was "Show me Your Glory" by 3rd day). Other than those 2 experiences, my realm of experience doesn't have a clue what it's like, but I am now open and searching and have a frame of reference for what He is stirring up in my inner being - or "opening horizons of my soul". instead of wondering if I'm going off the deep end =)... not saying I get it yet -but He's got me digging into what it looks like to "enjoy" Him (Westminster), to delight in Him (Ps. 37:4), what (spiritual) intimacy with Christ looks like (yes, reading the Song of Songs even though the experts in the last 100 years or so are saying they no longer think it's an allegory of Christ and the Church or God and Israel - which was the common belief for centuries before that though) - concepts I would say the spock syndrom side of us has kind of stayed away from teaching on, at least not in-depth anyway since it seems to make us uncomfortable, but I firmly believe God's opening up new realms of worship and prayer for His Bride... so we can glory in His Holy Name for His Glory, more completely. What that looks like, well, it will probably be a life (eternal life?) long journey, but I'm on it!
So again, His glory is an entire discussion... in a nutshell... it's His Presence, which we can always experience at some level, you have the knowledge level that He is omnipresent, we have His presence in us as believers, and then you have His manifest presence aka revival type shekinah glory, and probably infinite levels in between and beyond.
sorry, Pete, you can jump in anytime and get us back to "preaching", but it is all related =)... at least to your original question on what makes worship valuable!!
I just love this kind of discussion/sharpening =)... thx. Pete for getting it started... hope you are gaining insight, as I know I am =)... taste and see that the LORD is good...
so did some research on "orthopathy", and what is fascinating to me is how "experience" is a key part. (emphasis mine in following quote).. I know i have heard experience slammed by preachers in our reformed tradtion. That could be part of the problem...
BOQ...T.H. Runyon first coined the term "orthopathy" in an article in 1987.[3]He identified orthopathy as a concept originated by Wesley that stood as "a necessary but currently missing complement to orthodoxy and orthopraxy." Runyon described orthopathy in epistemological terms as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant." As he explicated it, there are four factors involved in this epistemological event: (1) the divine source of experience, which makes impressions on the spiritual senses of the human beings; (2) the telos of experience: the intention of the source, the purpose and goal for the human being; (3) the transformation brought about through experience; and (4) the feelings that accompany the experience.EOQ[4
and I would love a better definition to explain the difference between "emotion" "feeling" and "affection"... just so we are on the same page there.
also, I think this line is what I mean when i say there is a dynamic reaction going on that the Holy Spirit orchestrates...
boq.. as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant".eoq e
(sorry, if i get extra letters, when I copy and paste for some reason what I type at the end doesn't show up on my screen, until I post, and then there they are : /)
Yummy food for thought!! (I know that is such an intellectual term =)
thanks Jeff... our inner man =) our inner being =), the eyes of our hearts...the spiritual senses, good stuff... hmmm... i'm going to keep reflecting on the nuances between emotions, passions, feelings and affections... as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is instead highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
very confirming as John mentioned our new heart, and I've been wrestling w. our (reformed tradition) over emphasis of Jer. 17:9 (wicked heart) and Is. 64:6 (deeds are filthy rags), instead of emphasizing that we are new creations in Christ, and we have been given a new, good heart. That Jesus purifies our acts and makes them beautiful, clean, fine bright linen worthy of the wedding garment for His Bride. and as I'm re-reading Richard Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline"..
But, Jeff, I would be interested in further explanation of why you think orthopathy was a tangential, yet unspoken element regarding the 3rd wave pentecostal discussion/report... what do you mean by that?
again, thx. for taking the time and sharing your perspectives on this =)
BOQ..When is the last time you heard someone (including yourself) in the reformed tradition shouting for the LORD? Really shouting, all out victory yell? I don't need to know, but I simply ask the question, because in our reformed tradition of worship I have never heard it happen. eoq
Ok, I can't say this anymore =)... as a result of the prayer summit earlier this week, I have now been in a crc gathering where shouting in worship happened! Praise God! He is expanding our worship and prayer in ways we have not traditionally used much (if at all)!
thanks for elaborating Jeff... I find that interesting for a number of reasons...
also, back to the original question... if we are looking for a formula that works every time, ie. pray A, do B, say C, and then D happens, that's man's way... I think the part that is hard to grasp, is that it cannot be humanly manipulated or orchestrated. The Spirit is always in us, but His anointing upon us ebbs and flows at His will, that cannot be humanly orchestrated, only asked for and sought after through obedience and our relationship with God. ABC&D are key elements, but there is so much more. (it's kind of like my struggle with HC Q&A #83... what are the keys of the Kingdom... the HC gives 2- preaching and discipline, but I think there are many more that it doesn't mention).
as for the appreciative inquiry, Pete, I'm curious why you use this technique?
per Pete VB: Yet I have heard preaching (years ago) where Christ was the one who died for me so I owed Christ my good behaviour. eoq
isn't that the 3rd part of the HC... our service is a response of thanksgiving for what Jesus did? Or is thanksgiving different than we "owe" Him? That's another part of the HC I struggle with, yes, thanksgiving should/does prompt service/obedience/praise but what about because He is worthy? It's not only about what He has done or can do for us, but primarily because of Who He is! This is why the angels praise Him, they aren't praising out of a response of thanksgiving for their salvation.
I will say, in some of the messages I've heard/read where Christ was preached and the power of the Spirit was evident (at least for me), there was a focus on Rev. 5, Worthy is the Lamb... I've seen this focus with the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf, I see it as the fuel for night and day worship and prayer, Dan Henderson (Worship Encounters) shared that is the main reason we worship/pray, because He alone is worthy to receive all the glory! Because He deserves the reward of His suffering, our souls!
look forward to the rest of your "systematic" responses ; )... and pray God's blessing and anointing on you (and all the other pastors) as you prepare and preach His Word this week... we are praying for many to come to Christ (or experience that renewal John's friend testified of, through this Passion week!
per PVB: But now I'm the one bringing in topics not directly related to my own main question.
yeah, that's what a good question/discussion does... It's much broader than a simple answer =) and appreciate the insight you shared on the emotional aspect. I too think there is much more related to our "particular emotional stamp" or seeming lack thereof, and I believe this is part of the key to renewal in our denomination.
and Jeff''s comment (that both the emotions and intellect can be misleading, and maybe both should be valued to some extent) brings me back to my question from a previous comment:
...as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and instead the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
and if so, then I would also ask, how close are we to being in balance? and if we are not in balance, then why not?
then couple of other thoughts... this question is from David Bryant's book Christ is all! Is Jesus our mascot or our monarch? This has to do w. Pete's question: boq So, in the 'good' answer to my original question to start this conversation, we would need to include an explanation of the 'kind' of Christ we would need to hear about.eoq.
and as I'm reading Celebration of Discipline: The path to Spiritual Growth (Jeff's earlier comment on the spiritual disciplines was a good confirmation of this book)... here is a sentence from the worship chapter (p158)... "We can use all the right techniques and methods, we can have the best possible liturgy, but we have not worshipped the LORD until Spirit touches spirit."
So this goes back to the inner man, our spiritual senses, and being sensitive to what God is doing at that level, not just cognitively/intellectually.
I think what you are saying is we also need to "experience" God. I'm totally with you on that Brother! It's just in my experience, experience gets slammed (sometimes I wonder if it's almost considered the equivalent of entertainment and the 2 are being seen as synonymous), and is seen as a far lesser "knowledge" than the intellectual/cerebral. God is an experience, the Holy Spirit is an experience. There is no other way I can describe the encounters I have had, where I know that I know that I know, not in an intellectual way, but in a much deeper way in my inner being. The kind of knowing and experiencing God, that you would be willing to die for Him. It's not warm fuzzies... It's powerful!
When I raise the question is Jesus our monarch, or our mascot, the difference is, you would die for your monarch, but not for a mascot, the monarch is in charge of leading his troops, the mascot just comes out when the troops are a bit down, and helps get them cheered up but is not part of the real "game" going on, if Jesus is our monarch, our lives will be changed, if He is our mascot, we will still do what we want to do. hope that makes sense.
the verse that challenges me, is we have a form of godliness, but deny its power... which makes me think we cannot assume the orthopathy will happen, however only God can change hearts, so our role is prayer, praise, sharing as the Spirit leads (God can give us prophetic insight to help change hearts), being obedient to His promptings (which is an entire discussion in itself) and ??? I'm sure there are more...
Prayer is a key... I believe a key prayer is Eph. 1:17-18... open the eyes of our hearts LORD, and give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to know You more. I will share that the LORD gave me this prayer 5 times over the weekend He re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart. It was probably a bit like the renewal John's friend experienced. I'd been a believer all my life, grew up crc (and still am) but there was a significant change in my inner being that weekend which included a hunger to be in His Word like I had never experienced before. and yes, I too now believe much more fully in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit such as miraculous healing, tongues, prophecy (listening prayer), dreams, visions, etc. it was profound, powerful, and life changing. and I'm desperate for that "experience" for everyone, whether they all want it is another question and discussion.
Jeff, when i share on something that is in the orthopathy realm ie the emotions, spiritual gifts of prophecy, visions, dreams, praying in tongues, high praise, in the conservative tradtion, I get slammed, the responses often astound me (just letting you know, it doesn't go over very well) . It is resisted, it is viewed as pagan, from the enemy, it is viewed with disdain, scoffed at, terms such as "scary" "dangerous" "weird" are used, and it's almost considered heresy. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not. I am thankful that there are several of you more open to this, because I have found significant resistance, and I believe it is an intellectual stronghold we are up against. I could and would love to discuss this with you guys face to face, because then I could explain what I mean more clearly, because you might be thinking what in the world does she talk about, so there would be no misunderstandings as this topic can cause lots of them.
Again, I believe getting a biblical understanding of our inner man (orthopathy is part of that) is a key to renewal in our denomination. The concept of (spiritual) intimacy with Christ aka loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength makes some of us uncomfortable. We are in danger of flipping the priority of this command with loving our neighbor aka doing justice aka doing what's right, orthopraxy (and it's so subtle because justice is biblical, but not if it is out of order with loving God - I will say this is debatable, as I've heard arguments that say the orthopathy will come out of our orthodoxy and our orthopraxy - however, from my experience, when the orthodoxy and orthopraxy flow out of the orthopathy, there is night and day difference in the results, the results are things I could not have orchestrated if I tried, or would have resulted in significant frustration and effort on my part, and instead I see God move in ways beyond imagination, and it's easy for HIm. Instead of burnout being a problem, it is now warfare -(just saying that's my experience).
I believe we (conservative traditions) are missing something in our understanding/experience, and believe it has to do with spiritual formation, the orthopathy, the emotions, the Holy Spirit and His supernatural gifts. That's why I'm curious as to why pvb is using appreciative inquiry.
One specific way to possibly address this is to teach on the difference between being emotional and emotionalism, recognizing again, that only God can change the heart. Testimonies are another powerful tool God uses to help open up people's hearts.
I hope that makes sense, because there is so much here, and I cannot share all the details in what started out intending to be a brief =) comment, and so I pray that there is no misunderstanding in what I've shared. I could discuss this for hours... so if anyone is going to be at the crc prayer summit in a couple weeks, DV I would love to meet you there =)
Wow!... bless your heart.... that's what it seems to take to convince (conservative) believers of an expanded view of what the Holy Spirit will do, their own personal, powerful experience/encounter that they can't deny... thanks for sharing your testimony, believe you me... i have many questions I would love to ask you...
and great conclusion... it takes sensitivity and obedience to His promptings... preaching what He wants, where He wants, and when He wants... He will take care of the hearts of the listeners!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is Hebr. 4:12... the Word is living and active... there is a dynamic reaction via the Holy Spirit that is going on between what is shared and what is received that is just beyond explanation.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
We tend to sit in the balcony, toward the back, so I can worship fairly freely with out getting the "look", and there's a little alcove that my daughter will dance in, where no one can see her unless they are right there... so that's how we try to limit the criticism of being a distraction. You are right, as we get more used to it, we will find it less distracting... we also have freedom at the prayer center to worship with dance, flags, etc... and at home of course =)...
That's an interesting question on Elijah and prophets of Baal... the story I think of is 2 Chron 20 - that while we worship, God can turn the enemy on each other (Ie story of 3 armies that were going to come against Jehoshaphat and ended up ambushing each other instead while Judah praised) and then Psalm 149:6-end... warfare can be a result of worship, (but it's not the primary reason), interestingly, Elijah did take the prophets down to the river to execute them. So not sure if that was to respect and honor the holy places of worship...
I just read this statment this morning in Dick E's book on Intercessory worship....BOQ "Reform" simply means "to change for the better" or "improve". It's not that all worship (and I would add prayer) in the Church today is deficient, but perhaps God wants to take us to higher heights and deeper depths of His glory. eoq p116
This resonates with what God is putting on my heart and what I'm seeing going on in our area. I believe God is calling us to dimensions of worship and prayer that we have not traditionally used much (if at all =) ie 24/7/continual worship and prayer as the Levites did in the days of King David... So being reformed, I think it helps to be aware that God wants to grow us in our worship and prayer to experience more of His glory for His glory. Personally for me, as i also read the book "Glory" by Ruth Heflin, i only have 2 worship experiences where I was undone in a profound way, and that gave me just a glimpse of what this "Glory" might be, otherwise it is foreign to me (so far). I know there is so much more of His glory that we can experience (on earth), and when we experience His glory, He gets the glory (just in case someone's thinking it's all about our experience - we experience His glory because He is God and He is a generous God, when we enjoy Him and delight in Him, He is glorified). I believe God is pointing me in that direction and giving me an awareness to search and ask for His glory (the song on the radio when I woke up this morning was "Show me Your Glory" by 3rd day). Other than those 2 experiences, my realm of experience doesn't have a clue what it's like, but I am now open and searching and have a frame of reference for what He is stirring up in my inner being - or "opening horizons of my soul". instead of wondering if I'm going off the deep end =)... not saying I get it yet -but He's got me digging into what it looks like to "enjoy" Him (Westminster), to delight in Him (Ps. 37:4), what (spiritual) intimacy with Christ looks like (yes, reading the Song of Songs even though the experts in the last 100 years or so are saying they no longer think it's an allegory of Christ and the Church or God and Israel - which was the common belief for centuries before that though) - concepts I would say the spock syndrom side of us has kind of stayed away from teaching on, at least not in-depth anyway since it seems to make us uncomfortable, but I firmly believe God's opening up new realms of worship and prayer for His Bride... so we can glory in His Holy Name for His Glory, more completely. What that looks like, well, it will probably be a life (eternal life?) long journey, but I'm on it!
So again, His glory is an entire discussion... in a nutshell... it's His Presence, which we can always experience at some level, you have the knowledge level that He is omnipresent, we have His presence in us as believers, and then you have His manifest presence aka revival type shekinah glory, and probably infinite levels in between and beyond.
sorry, Pete, you can jump in anytime and get us back to "preaching", but it is all related =)... at least to your original question on what makes worship valuable!!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I just love this kind of discussion/sharpening =)... thx. Pete for getting it started... hope you are gaining insight, as I know I am =)... taste and see that the LORD is good...
so did some research on "orthopathy", and what is fascinating to me is how "experience" is a key part. (emphasis mine in following quote).. I know i have heard experience slammed by preachers in our reformed tradtion. That could be part of the problem...
BOQ...T.H. Runyon first coined the term "orthopathy" in an article in 1987.[3]He identified orthopathy as a concept originated by Wesley that stood as "a necessary but currently missing complement to orthodoxy and orthopraxy." Runyon described orthopathy in epistemological terms as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant." As he explicated it, there are four factors involved in this epistemological event: (1) the divine source of experience, which makes impressions on the spiritual senses of the human beings; (2) the telos of experience: the intention of the source, the purpose and goal for the human being; (3) the transformation brought about through experience; and (4) the feelings that accompany the experience.EOQ[4
above quote is from the following link:
http://www.holytrinitynewrochelle.org/horton-parkerradicalorthodoxy.html
and I would love a better definition to explain the difference between "emotion" "feeling" and "affection"... just so we are on the same page there.
also, I think this line is what I mean when i say there is a dynamic reaction going on that the Holy Spirit orchestrates...
boq.. as an event that occurs "between the Divine Source and human participant".eoq e
(sorry, if i get extra letters, when I copy and paste for some reason what I type at the end doesn't show up on my screen, until I post, and then there they are : /)
Yummy food for thought!! (I know that is such an intellectual term =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
thanks Jeff... our inner man =) our inner being =), the eyes of our hearts...the spiritual senses, good stuff... hmmm... i'm going to keep reflecting on the nuances between emotions, passions, feelings and affections... as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is instead highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
very confirming as John mentioned our new heart, and I've been wrestling w. our (reformed tradition) over emphasis of Jer. 17:9 (wicked heart) and Is. 64:6 (deeds are filthy rags), instead of emphasizing that we are new creations in Christ, and we have been given a new, good heart. That Jesus purifies our acts and makes them beautiful, clean, fine bright linen worthy of the wedding garment for His Bride. and as I'm re-reading Richard Foster's book "Celebration of Discipline"..
But, Jeff, I would be interested in further explanation of why you think orthopathy was a tangential, yet unspoken element regarding the 3rd wave pentecostal discussion/report... what do you mean by that?
again, thx. for taking the time and sharing your perspectives on this =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
BOQ..When is the last time you heard someone (including yourself) in the reformed tradition shouting for the LORD? Really shouting, all out victory yell? I don't need to know, but I simply ask the question, because in our reformed tradition of worship I have never heard it happen. eoq
Ok, I can't say this anymore =)... as a result of the prayer summit earlier this week, I have now been in a crc gathering where shouting in worship happened! Praise God! He is expanding our worship and prayer in ways we have not traditionally used much (if at all)!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
thanks for elaborating Jeff... I find that interesting for a number of reasons...
also, back to the original question... if we are looking for a formula that works every time, ie. pray A, do B, say C, and then D happens, that's man's way... I think the part that is hard to grasp, is that it cannot be humanly manipulated or orchestrated. The Spirit is always in us, but His anointing upon us ebbs and flows at His will, that cannot be humanly orchestrated, only asked for and sought after through obedience and our relationship with God. ABC&D are key elements, but there is so much more. (it's kind of like my struggle with HC Q&A #83... what are the keys of the Kingdom... the HC gives 2- preaching and discipline, but I think there are many more that it doesn't mention).
as for the appreciative inquiry, Pete, I'm curious why you use this technique?
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I pray that "renewal" be multiplied many times over in the Church... wake us up LORD!.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Because He is worthy! Worthy is the Lamb!
per Pete VB: Yet I have heard preaching (years ago) where Christ was the one who died for me so I owed Christ my good behaviour. eoq
isn't that the 3rd part of the HC... our service is a response of thanksgiving for what Jesus did? Or is thanksgiving different than we "owe" Him? That's another part of the HC I struggle with, yes, thanksgiving should/does prompt service/obedience/praise but what about because He is worthy? It's not only about what He has done or can do for us, but primarily because of Who He is! This is why the angels praise Him, they aren't praising out of a response of thanksgiving for their salvation.
I will say, in some of the messages I've heard/read where Christ was preached and the power of the Spirit was evident (at least for me), there was a focus on Rev. 5, Worthy is the Lamb... I've seen this focus with the Moravians and Count Zinzendorf, I see it as the fuel for night and day worship and prayer, Dan Henderson (Worship Encounters) shared that is the main reason we worship/pray, because He alone is worthy to receive all the glory! Because He deserves the reward of His suffering, our souls!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
amen! it is a delight, not a duty!...
look forward to the rest of your "systematic" responses ; )... and pray God's blessing and anointing on you (and all the other pastors) as you prepare and preach His Word this week... we are praying for many to come to Christ (or experience that renewal John's friend testified of, through this Passion week!
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
per PVB: But now I'm the one bringing in topics not directly related to my own main question.
yeah, that's what a good question/discussion does... It's much broader than a simple answer =) and appreciate the insight you shared on the emotional aspect. I too think there is much more related to our "particular emotional stamp" or seeming lack thereof, and I believe this is part of the key to renewal in our denomination.
and Jeff''s comment (that both the emotions and intellect can be misleading, and maybe both should be valued to some extent) brings me back to my question from a previous comment:
...as there tends to be disdain for these types of sentiments, and instead the intellect aka the cerebral per Pete, is highly regarded, and almost idolized... so, theoretically, should there be a balance?
and if so, then I would also ask, how close are we to being in balance? and if we are not in balance, then why not?
then couple of other thoughts... this question is from David Bryant's book Christ is all! Is Jesus our mascot or our monarch? This has to do w. Pete's question: boq So, in the 'good' answer to my original question to start this conversation, we would need to include an explanation of the 'kind' of Christ we would need to hear about.eoq.
and as I'm reading Celebration of Discipline: The path to Spiritual Growth (Jeff's earlier comment on the spiritual disciplines was a good confirmation of this book)... here is a sentence from the worship chapter (p158)... "We can use all the right techniques and methods, we can have the best possible liturgy, but we have not worshipped the LORD until Spirit touches spirit."
So this goes back to the inner man, our spiritual senses, and being sensitive to what God is doing at that level, not just cognitively/intellectually.
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
I think what you are saying is we also need to "experience" God. I'm totally with you on that Brother! It's just in my experience, experience gets slammed (sometimes I wonder if it's almost considered the equivalent of entertainment and the 2 are being seen as synonymous), and is seen as a far lesser "knowledge" than the intellectual/cerebral. God is an experience, the Holy Spirit is an experience. There is no other way I can describe the encounters I have had, where I know that I know that I know, not in an intellectual way, but in a much deeper way in my inner being. The kind of knowing and experiencing God, that you would be willing to die for Him. It's not warm fuzzies... It's powerful!
When I raise the question is Jesus our monarch, or our mascot, the difference is, you would die for your monarch, but not for a mascot, the monarch is in charge of leading his troops, the mascot just comes out when the troops are a bit down, and helps get them cheered up but is not part of the real "game" going on, if Jesus is our monarch, our lives will be changed, if He is our mascot, we will still do what we want to do. hope that makes sense.
the verse that challenges me, is we have a form of godliness, but deny its power... which makes me think we cannot assume the orthopathy will happen, however only God can change hearts, so our role is prayer, praise, sharing as the Spirit leads (God can give us prophetic insight to help change hearts), being obedient to His promptings (which is an entire discussion in itself) and ??? I'm sure there are more...
Prayer is a key... I believe a key prayer is Eph. 1:17-18... open the eyes of our hearts LORD, and give us the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to know You more. I will share that the LORD gave me this prayer 5 times over the weekend He re-opened the eyes and ears of my heart. It was probably a bit like the renewal John's friend experienced. I'd been a believer all my life, grew up crc (and still am) but there was a significant change in my inner being that weekend which included a hunger to be in His Word like I had never experienced before. and yes, I too now believe much more fully in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit such as miraculous healing, tongues, prophecy (listening prayer), dreams, visions, etc. it was profound, powerful, and life changing. and I'm desperate for that "experience" for everyone, whether they all want it is another question and discussion.
Jeff, when i share on something that is in the orthopathy realm ie the emotions, spiritual gifts of prophecy, visions, dreams, praying in tongues, high praise, in the conservative tradtion, I get slammed, the responses often astound me (just letting you know, it doesn't go over very well) . It is resisted, it is viewed as pagan, from the enemy, it is viewed with disdain, scoffed at, terms such as "scary" "dangerous" "weird" are used, and it's almost considered heresy. I wish I could say I was joking, but I'm not. I am thankful that there are several of you more open to this, because I have found significant resistance, and I believe it is an intellectual stronghold we are up against. I could and would love to discuss this with you guys face to face, because then I could explain what I mean more clearly, because you might be thinking what in the world does she talk about, so there would be no misunderstandings as this topic can cause lots of them.
Again, I believe getting a biblical understanding of our inner man (orthopathy is part of that) is a key to renewal in our denomination. The concept of (spiritual) intimacy with Christ aka loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength makes some of us uncomfortable. We are in danger of flipping the priority of this command with loving our neighbor aka doing justice aka doing what's right, orthopraxy (and it's so subtle because justice is biblical, but not if it is out of order with loving God - I will say this is debatable, as I've heard arguments that say the orthopathy will come out of our orthodoxy and our orthopraxy - however, from my experience, when the orthodoxy and orthopraxy flow out of the orthopathy, there is night and day difference in the results, the results are things I could not have orchestrated if I tried, or would have resulted in significant frustration and effort on my part, and instead I see God move in ways beyond imagination, and it's easy for HIm. Instead of burnout being a problem, it is now warfare -(just saying that's my experience).
I believe we (conservative traditions) are missing something in our understanding/experience, and believe it has to do with spiritual formation, the orthopathy, the emotions, the Holy Spirit and His supernatural gifts. That's why I'm curious as to why pvb is using appreciative inquiry.
One specific way to possibly address this is to teach on the difference between being emotional and emotionalism, recognizing again, that only God can change the heart. Testimonies are another powerful tool God uses to help open up people's hearts.
I hope that makes sense, because there is so much here, and I cannot share all the details in what started out intending to be a brief =) comment, and so I pray that there is no misunderstanding in what I've shared. I could discuss this for hours... so if anyone is going to be at the crc prayer summit in a couple weeks, DV I would love to meet you there =)
Posted in: Defining 'preaching of the Word'?
Wow!... bless your heart.... that's what it seems to take to convince (conservative) believers of an expanded view of what the Holy Spirit will do, their own personal, powerful experience/encounter that they can't deny... thanks for sharing your testimony, believe you me... i have many questions I would love to ask you...
and great conclusion... it takes sensitivity and obedience to His promptings... preaching what He wants, where He wants, and when He wants... He will take care of the hearts of the listeners!