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1) Sisyphean Striving – The Job Can Feel Pointless (Ironically)

Work is difficult when the purpose is obscured. The story is told about two janitors working in the NASA building during the 1960s. One janitor was depressed because he thought he was insignificant compared to the literal rocket scientists in the building. He found so little purpose in his mopping the floor compared to their space exploration that his work began to feel completely meaningless. His friend, on the other hand, was always whistling while he worked. Finally, someone asked the second janitor, “Why are you so happy at work while your coworker is so dejected?” The happy janitor replied, “I love my job. I’m putting a man on the moon!”

The two janitors perceived radically different levels of fulfillment in their identical jobs solely because they had different perceptions of what they were doing. Fulfillment came to the second janitor because he thought what he was doing was important. The exact same work was drudgery because the first janitor thought it was meaningless. Pastors are a lot like the first janitor. They enter their calling hearing that it is the most exalted calling in the whole world. I heard the story a few times in seminary that a pastor immediately denied requests that he run for president of the United States because to do so would be a demotion in his eyes. This is true.

Every pastor has this expectation of the work—it will feel like the most important thing in the world because it is! Nothing is more important than sharing the gospel of eternal glory. However, most pastors do not experience this level of meaningfulness for long stretches of time. Though they expect their work to be meaningful, when they actually do the work, they don’t see the fruit. They know that preaching the gospel is the hope of the world and that it changes people’s lives. But they often preach the gospel, and nothing changes. Actually, that’s not true. They preach the gospel, and things get worse. This is why Jeremiah is known as the weeping prophet.

Imagine you were a farmer, and you worked tirelessly to grow various crops—wheat, corn, and other vegetables. If you saw your job as growing as much food as possible and storing it safely, you would likely have a degree of satisfaction. You might not be doing anything important with the food you grow, but it’s safely stored, and the future possibility of using the food for something good would encourage you. That is like studying the Bible, which is the pastor’s main job. A pastor can study the Bible and enjoy the work because it is storing up biblical wisdom and helping him grow spiritually.

Now, imagine that your job as a farmer was not only to grow and store that food but to cook the food for people. That is the second half of the pastor’s job. He not only must study the Bible, he must take what he learns and feed it to the Lord’s sheep. He must teach. If the farmer was tasked with cooking but the people he gave the food to didn’t seem to benefit, it would be discouraging. If the people said, “This food is too cold, too hot, too bland, too spicy, not what I like, better down the street, etc.” It would be hard to hear. Furthermore, if the people did not seem to benefit from the food, it would be crushing. If they didn’t grow and in fact, were getting sick, the farmer would want to give up. Why on earth do all the work of growing the food then cooking and serving it if the people not only don’t like it but aren’t benefitting from it? No sane farmer would stick with that task.

This is what many pastors feel like. They study the Bible and prepare sermons, but the people often complain. Some complaints are bearable because we know it’s going to happen. The desire to quit occurs not when people complain but when the preaching doesn’t seem to “work.” Nobody gets saved, the people don’t grow in godliness, the church culture doesn’t get any better, and maybe it even gets worse. The pastor spends 20 long hours slaving over his sermon, and when all is said and done, in the words of a pastor I know, “it’s like it never happened.” Many churches today are in this exact situation—no growth, lots of complaints, and it just gets worse. In these circumstances, the pastor feels exactly like the farmer whose food gets rejected. We expect pastors to continue on happily in this situation, while we would never expect the same of the farmer!

In a word, many pastors feel like their work isn’t accomplishing anything, and it may even be making things worse. Complaints and critiques ring loud, and compliments hollow. Fruit is unripe, and sin is rampant. When I joined the Army, I was sorely disappointed at the reality of the work. The recruiter videos have almost nothing to do with what the job actually was. But I couldn’t quit because I had great friends, and the government forced me to stay. Pastors often find themselves in a similar situation, yet they are often the loneliest people on the planet and feel like everyone wants them to leave. It’s a miracle so many stay!

This might sound pretty bad, but it gets much worse. Many pastors think they are joining the ministry to serve God as humble servants. Unfortunately, some don’t understand what their true motive is. Though they say and think that they want to serve God, in the back of their minds, they imagine the ministry to be about them—they get pats on the back, people listen to them, they don’t have to work very hard, they even get famous with megachurches and book deals. If a pastor has this secret idol of the heart and the Lord is kind enough to give him a failing ministry, he may find himself not only questioning the point of his work, but he may also question his calling! He may realize that he was never called in the first place because he isn’t willing to serve the Lord if it hurts. He didn’t really want to serve the Lord as a servant, but he wanted to speak as a celebrity. The pastors who find themselves in this situation have salt poured into the wound. They find the work much less fulfilling than they thought it would be, and they find their hearts much more sinful than they thought they were. It’s a double whammy of pastoral burnout.

2) Boys Doing a Man’s Job

The job of pastoral ministry is difficult by its very nature. I’ve heard of (but am unable to find) studies that have determined pastoral ministry to be at the top of the list of jobs that require diverse ranges of competencies. This makes sense: in no other job are you required to have scholarly abilities (facility in ancient languages, philosophical/theological knowledge, research capabilities), leadership skills (the first two cut out 95% of jobs—how many scholars are leaders?), emotional intelligence (can you listen to someone complain about their cold when your dad has cancer without being a jerk?), training in counseling (how do you help a couple that hate each other, love each other?), public speaking skills (and the ability to write the “speech” every single week), and an exemplary spiritual life (which is hard enough on its own!). In other words, in no other job are you required to go from studying an ancient document to counseling someone who just got cancer, to leading a board room meeting, to writing a public speech, to burying a dead person, all in the same day (yes, pastors often do all these things in a single day). Of course, the list can go on—administering the sacraments of communion and baptism, writing spiritual materials, planting churches, planning events, leading prayer meetings, casting vision, hiring and firing, officiating weddings, etc.

It is easy to see that a job with so many requirements can be discouraging if the employee is a finite human being (and unfortunately, most pastors aside from John Piper are). What’s not so easy to see is that the nature of this job runs contrary to itself. By that, I mean there are two main components of pastoral ministry that are at war with each other—the need for pastors to be contemplative, intentional people and the need for pastors to be able to multitask constantly. To get all the things mentioned above done, pastors need to multitask. But, to be spiritually mature leaders who cast biblical vision and lead others toward God’s purposes for them, they need to spend lots of time praying and reading the Bible for their own personal growth. You can’t do that while multitasking. Prayer and Bible reading don’t mix with text messages, agenda writing, and event planning.

Therefore, many pastors find themselves in a constant state of frustration. They feel like their boss is telling them, “Write me a research report and take all the leaves out of the gutters at the same time.” Pastors feel like they’re up on a ladder with one hand in the rain gutter and the other on a keyboard, with a nagging feeling that they’re going to fall.

3) The Perception

The first two problems are difficult, but the third problem intensifies them both. Namely, in the midst of feeling like too little butter spread across too much bread, people around the pastor often remark that his job seems easy. They joke with him that he only has to work for 30 minutes a week (the time when he’s preaching). They get upset when they don’t immediately get a visit in the hospital or a returned email. They may even suggest that the church should pay him less.

Like in the Army, it’s possible to do a really difficult job when you are doing it for people you love. War is bearable just because of the friends you fight for. But, really difficult jobs often become unbearable when the people you serve constantly ridicule your efforts. It’s commonly understood that pastors are some of the most critiqued people around. Every single week, they give a brand new “speech” (sometimes two) that can be critiqued. But that “speech” isn’t just about anything; it is supposed to accurately explain an ancient document written by God in three different languages that the audience is already intimately familiar with.

So, that means the sermon can be critiqued not only because “I didn’t like it” but also because “it wasn’t accurately explaining the text.” That could be enough to make some people anxious. But, add to that the fact that the pastor is supposed to be living out the sermons he speaks, and we see that everything he does is subject to critique (“You preached on humility, but the car you drive is ostentatious!”). But there’s more. Today, pastors are compared not only with the pastor down the street (who is supposed to be a brother in Christ) but also with every pastor on the internet (“Why don’t you preach like John Piper?”). Imagine if every time you played a pickup basketball game at the park, people came up to you and negatively compared your game with Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron! The worst area of critique, however, is the pastor’s family. Any pastor will tell you that a harsh critique of the sermon he spent 20 hours laboring over hurts, but criticism of his family kills him.

In this way, we see that pastors have been given jobs that are discouraging and difficult. Though this would be manageable if pastors sensed that the people they serve really loved them and appreciated what they did, but that is often not the case. Many times, those closest to the pastor inflict the greatest wounds because they know his soft spots. I think when these three things are combined, pastors quit. If you don’t see the fruit of your labors, your labors are the hardest thing you’ve ever done, and people tell you that you are bad at what you do, you will quit. These three elements combine to suck all the air out of the pastor’s sails. It’s no wonder 38% of US pastors have considered quitting.[1]

4) Signs of the Times—It Gets Worse

We live in an age when these three elements are probably at their historical worst. The first element is probably the least severe, with the latter two being the most severe. By God’s grace, there are many churches that respond well to pastoral ministry, giving their pastors a rich sense of meaning as their work changes lives. As wonderful as this is, the church in America is probably at a low ebb in this regard, historically speaking. Almost every American church is shrinking as elderly congregations die off without replacing themselves due to the ever-increasing “nones.” Though individual people may benefit from pastoral ministry, there isn’t much church growth. That is, not many people are being positively affected by pastoral ministry in the most important way—salvation. In this way, pastors today are primed for the lowest sense of purpose.

Though pastoring is complicated work, every work is complicated. Mechanics need to be computer engineers now. Teachers need to know twice what they used to. Lawmakers need entire teams just to understand the law they’re supposed to be writing. Probably the only thing that isn’t more complicated today is flying a plane (modern planes can essentially fly themselves). But don’t worry, airlines will figure out some new tasks for their pilots very soon (maybe they’ll fire the flight attendants and make the pilots serve drinks!). The point, then, is that the complicated task of pastoring is just becoming much more complicated. If teaching was relatively simple and now it’s complex, pastoring was complex, and now it’s a maze. In this way, pastors today are primed for complication fatigue.

Finally, though pastors have always been (harshly?) criticized, today, the heat has been turned up. This is no surprise because everything is criticized more harshly today. In the Christian Reformed Church (of which I am a pastor), we are at an all-time high for article 17s, that is, firing pastors. There were 18 article 17s per year in the past two decades. In the two decades before that, there were only 3 per year—a 600% increase.[2] If being a pastor 20 years ago earned you some criticism, today, it guarantees it. Someone in your congregation is sure to vehemently disapprove of your stance on masking, vaccines, politics, public schooling, etc. There are so many new things to criticize today, and the pastors are often the first in the shoot. In this way, pastors today are primed for criticism.

5) Hope?

Yes, there is hope, but not in the way many would expect. I don’t think things are getting better. I don’t think congregations are getting more understanding or that the job is going to get simpler. The hope I see is in 1 Corinthians 2:3-5: “And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my word and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” I think pastors today are primed to experience what the Apostle Paul was referring to in this passage.

Long gone are the days when pastors were respected and slapping together a fancy ministry was all but guaranteed to fill the theater seats. Many great churches with great preachers are empty. They can’t rely on business model ecclesiology or personality-driven churches. This is a blessed fact. The Lord has removed our shortcuts. We can’t fill the pews with Charles Finney’s tactics anymore. We need George Whitefield’s instead—the Spirit must descend and produce new birth. Pastors are primed to long for the Holy Spirit. Every day, they are being backed further and further into the corner of God’s sovereignty, where they realize that they are weak, fearful, trembling, unpersuasive, and unwise (1 Cor 2:3-4). Many will dig a hole in the ground, hide, and quit. But others will fall to their knees with tears in their eyes and desperation in their hearts. When they do, the Lord will respond with faithful mercy because even when we are faithless, He remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13). How much better it is to sense our deep inadequacy and simultaneous dependency on the Spirit than to think we can do anything without Him? Could this historical increase in pastoral burnout be the providential means of God to create trembling pastors blessed with the Spirit of power? I sure hope so. Because if not, we’re hopeless.

[1] https://www.barna.com/research/pastors-well-being/

[2] https://network.crcna.org/topic/church-strategy-mission/church-renewal/nfl-culture-wars-and-article-17s

 

Disclaimer: The Network publishes user-created content, and thus the position of posts may not fully reflect the views of the CRCNA.

 

Comments

There are some good points in this article. My only question is why "The Network" does not edit articles to be gender-inclusive when referring to pastors? This article uses all male pronouns for pastors, and even includes a subtitle about "Boys doing a Man's Job." The CRC includes around 200 women pastors, so I am requesting that the "Network" editors require gender-inclusive language for pastors. Thank you.

Hi Bonny, thank you for your comment. I am sorry my use of gender-specific language wasn't to your liking, seriously. This is a difficult situation. I am genuinely interested to hear your answer to this question: After prayer and searching the scriptures in community, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches that women cannot be pastors. My position is not rare and it is fully accepted by the CRC, alongside your view. Do you think I should go against my conscience—which says women can't be pastors—and write as if I do not believe that? Or, do you think The Network should edit my writing to reflect something contrary to my conscience? 

Hi Rob, My comment was addressed to the Network editors. I believe that an official CRC site should use gender-inclusive language for pastors, since the CRC *does* ordain women pastors, and that inclusive language should be the standard for articles that are accepted. The CRC's stance does not exclude women pastors, whereas the language of the article they published (which you happened to write) does that. Thanks again for your article. I would appreciate a response from the editors.

Thanks for your response, Bonny. I understand your perspective. As I mentioned, it's a difficult issue. I'm always interested in navigating our "two ways" on women in office. So, thank you for your perspective. In response, I'd say changing articles to be gender-inclusive, with regard to pastoring, solves one problem (yours) while violating another (mine). That is, what about my ability to read something that aligns with my view? Shouldn't that be prioritized as well? Again, just working through this messy issue. Thanks again. 

Again, I wish to direct my comments to the editors. 
If inclusive language is not required for articles in this forum, unless such articles are clearly marked as opinion pieces rather than labeled as "leadership" pieces, then an entire group of legitimately ordained pastors (leaders) are excluded. Using the pronoun "they" rather than "he" should not necessarily violate one's conscience, if they are part of a denomination that welcomes their women pastors.

Bonny, thank you for your comment. You are correct; the CRC has over 200 female pastors who are blessing us all in wonderful ways. On all official CRCNA posts and documents, we would always use gender-inclusive language. On the Network, however, we allow for user-submitted content. As such, some posts may not fully reflect the official position of the CRCNA, which states "that there are two different perspectives and convictions on this issue, both of which honor the Scriptures as the infallible Word of God." Thank you again for your excellent work; we are so appreciative of the work of all of our female pastors, elders, deacons, and other leaders.

Thank you, Sarah, for the clarification regarding the Network's open policy.
Perhaps, then, the Network could consider re-categorizing articles that do not fully reflect the official CRCNA position, in terms of inclusivity. This article, for example, could be labeled "Male Leadership" or "Male Lament" rather than highlighted in an email to all pastors as a leadership article for pastors.
I would like the Network to either consider having editorial guidelines, or putting a disclaimer in the introduction to articles that are exclusive in language and perspective.
Thank you for the work that you do.

HI Bonnie.  Sarah is brand new to the Network (Welcome Sarah!) and asked me for advice on how to handle this situation. I was the one who recommended that she respond as she did. I am still mulling over whether or not it is the right call. I do think that this post could be edited to included gender inclusive pronouns (or no pronouns at all) and would communicate Rob's points as he intended them. (His post isn't about headship, it is about the hardships of being a pastor. The things he describes would also apply to female pastors even if Rob wouldn't attend their churches). My concern was that it would change Rob's "voice" as a writer and that is something we try not to do. Perhaps a good policy going forward would be to flag the concern and then ask the author to consider revising. I will discuss this further with Sarah and others. 

As for a disclaimer, we do already have that on the footer of each page of the Network. It says, "The Network is a collection of content posted by members of our online community. Our hosting of this content does not imply endorsement, nor can we verify the accuracy of user-submitted post". 

Again, thank you for your feedback. It is appreciated. 

 

Is pastoral ministry a job or a calling? And what's the difference?

In my current role as an executive search recruiter within the Christian non-profit community, I am not only involved in finding CEOs, CFOs and Executive Directors for non-profits, I regularly meet with Christian leaders who are looking for new leadership opportunities.

And whether they're looking for a role as CEO, CFO or human resources, or as senior pastor for a church, it invariably begins with this question: "Do you feel a nudge from God to apply?" In other words, do you feel called to this position?

Increasingly, and alarmingly, I meet with pastors -- across all denominations -- who are looking to get out of pastoral ministry and into a leadership role with a Christian non-profit. The reason is a recurring refrain: "Given the amount of anger in my congregation --during and since COVID -- I've had enough." Those conversations invariably begin with a conversation about 'calling'. Did they feel called into the ministry when they first entered seminary and do they now feel called out of the ministry?

Answers vary. Some entered the ministry out of reaction to some specific event in their lives, like the loss of a child. Some saw the ministry as a noble profession where he/she can exercise one's leadership gifts. Many truly felt that nudge from God to enter the ministry.

Several, after careful self-examination, admitted that they were running away from their calling because they wanted something less stressful, more rewarding. Kinda like Jonah.

The end result also varies. Some pursue other leadership opportunities within a non-profit ministry ... and they thrive. Some make a difficult decision to stay within the ministry. "Just find me something else." So we connect them to a church that is looking for a senior pastor or executive pastor. After an extensive interview process, it appears to be a good fit.

This is always, always a prayerful process. When it comes to working with pastors in transition -- whether its within a church setting or a non-profit setting -- we spend time in prayer, we encourage the pastor and spouse to spend considerable time in prayer, formal interviews are also bathed in prayer.

So, is pastoral ministry a job or a calling? I certainly hope that it's more than a job. In fact, I hope that every leadership position within any Christian organization -- whether it's the local church or World Renew, Compassion, Alpha or Focus on the Family -- is considered a calling. If God isn't evident during that time of transition, then wait.

If you view your pastoral role as a job -- where you get to exercise your leadership gifts, sprinkled with preaching, and a good salary ... without a daily awareness of God's presence -- get out. Your church deserves better than that.

I think it's important to understand that ministry is BOTH a calling and a job.  Yes, it is a calling; something you feel God has led you to do.   And if one doesn't feel called by God, then I agree, they shouldn't be in the role.

That said, if you are saying that every pastor who, after a season of service, can't feel called to something else, or that to leave the parish for any other role is a dereliction of responsibility, then I strongly disagree.     

 

When I was new to ministry, I remember being in a pastoral support group where we once spent an afternoon reflecting on the rash of Article 17's, and one older pastor, who I count as one of the wisest men I know...once said...."perhaps our mistake is in this idea of "lifelong calling".   There are honorable ways in, but there seems to be no honorable way out".     Sometimes, for all sorts of reasons, pastors need a break, or a change.   That doesn't necessarily make them unfaithful.  

 

 

Thanks, Martin. I would never consider it a dereliction of responsibility if/ when a pastor leaves the leadership role in the church for some other role. If I left that impression, then that's my error.

We are called. Period. Some are called to serve as pastor, some are called to another vocation where their gifts are being used.

And you're right; individuals no longer tend to spend their entire careers in one vocation or with one employer. The days of a pastor .. or any employee .. devoting a lifetime of service in one church or with one employer are over.

If a pastor reaches the conclusion that he/she no longer feels called to serve a church then they must consider other career options to which they feel called.

To digress slightly, in a former role as stated clerk of a classis where we dealt with several Article 17 separations, there were clear instances where it simply wasn't a good fit. In many cases that fault lay with a search committee that didn't clearly articulate the church's vision/mission/structure when extending a call. And in an equal number of cases, the minister failed to probe deeper into a church's culture and theological perspective before accepting a call.  But that's an entirely different discussion.

I have reread this post, and the author’s comments. Am I to surmise that every time the author has written ‘pastors’ as an all-embracing term for pastors in the CRCNA, he is only referring to the male pastors? Are the female pastors invisible to him? Does he not recognise them as pastors?

I replied to this comment, but it seems it was deleted. I'll re-write the short version: As per 1 Tim 2:12 etc., I and many other pastors / congregants in the CRC believe the Bible prohibits women from being pastors. The CRC has recognized this position as viable, alongside the pro-women in office position. Unfortunately, many people seem to think that everyone in the CRC must hold to women in office, but this is not the case. To answer your question, Hetty, no, the ordained women in the CRC are not invisible to me. However, yes, I do not think that their ordination is in line with the biblical prescription for ordination. I understand this may be uncomfortable for many, but this is the denomination we are a part of. For more information, please see Eric Van Dyken's helpful post: https://network.crcna.org/topic/church-strategy-mission/church-renewal/thinking-about-third-way-crc-uniquely-qualified-forge

 

I must confess that I liked Rob's article, with the focus on what it means to be a pastor. His gender reference didn't occur to me.

I'd love to see two subsequent articles: "What's so hard about being a male pastor?" and "What's so hard about being a female pastor?" My hunch is that, while there are similarities in the role of being a pastor, male and female pastors also face very different issues and very different approaches to their roles.

Hi Keith,

I think we already had the male perspective. :)

I'd rather see "What is lifegiving about pastoral ministry?" or "How Do We See God At Work?" or "The Humble Calling of a Pastor."

Yes, we do face different issues as male and female pastors, but we have the same mission and calling. I believe in turning our swords into plowshares, as we partner together -- male and female -- as seed-planters and harvesters in God's Kingdom.

I would like to address the second point, ‘Boys doing a man’s job’. In particular the description of the pastor’s many tasks and the fact they are “at war with each other”.
Multi tasking is not limited to a pastor’s job. And I would have thought that prayer and contemplation are integral to sermon writing, event planning etc. These tasks are not ‘at war’ nor mutually exclusive. Yes, they require different skills and I would hope a congregation chooses a person who they believe has the ability to carry out the many different components of the job. Again, none of this is unique to pastoring.

A parent of six children aged 3-15yrs may find themselves cleaning gutters and writing a report for a church event planning meeting. On the way home from the meeting they must buy a gift for a child’s birthday and plan dinner. A weepy teenager needs some wise counselling. A toddler’s potty training continues. A Bible reflection for an evening meeting is still to be written. This is my own experience. Although there are times it seems like World War 3 has broken out, none of these tasks are ‘at war’, rather, the quiet reflection and deep communication with God is what allows me to do what needs to be done. And the role God has given me, with all its different expectations, drives me back to my Heavenly Father.

I also believe pastors should outsource more. Some tasks could be done by people with more time on their hands. And by people who are better gifted. The pastor is only one of a team of elders- only one of a churchful of able people. Pastors should recognise the giftings in the congregations, as well as where they themselves lack certain gifts. Admitting you’re hopeless at doing a children’s talk is step one; step two is seeing and encouraging the perfect congregation member to do it. Of course before we can do this there needs to be a radically new mindset in the Church. Pastors are not the only people called to serve. Their calling is no higher, their humility is no lower, their words are no holier, than any other worker in the Kingdom of God.

 

That last paragraph is so powerful, Rob. Isn't it is the way of his Kingdom, the upside down way our God redeems and renews through our failings? God's power is made perfect in our weakness,so let me be weak and remember who God is and who I am in him!

I'm a little concerned about the overall negativity of this post. It's hard to tell if the article is written largely from personal experience being generalized, or from many conversations the author is having with other pastors. As a pastor myself, I balk at adjectives like "many" or "most" when referring to pastors, because I do not find myself in this article.

Pastoring has, for me, been a delight. Yes, it has challenging moments, but none of them have (to date) compared to the challenge I found teaching elementary school to be for me. 

If this is written largely from personal experience, I would gently encourage you to seek out your classis mentor (if you're new to pastoring) or your regional pastor (regardless of how long you've been doing this). Perhaps conversations need to be had within the congregation, or between pastor & council. 

One picky piece - the rise in Article 17s. Firstly, an Article 17 is not actually "firing a pastor." It is supposed to make possible the separation (amicable or adversarial) of a pastor from a congregation. In the CRC it is one of the only ways it is possible for a pastor to leave a congregation if they are not retiring or leaving pastoring entirely. It has a bad rap, but is not always laden with such heaviness in coming to that decision. Those numbers are rising partly because of conflict between pastors and congregations, but also due to many other factors that don't involve such unfortunate back stories. Let's not give more negative press to Article 17s than we need to, for the sake of both pastors and congregations who find themselves needing them for many other reasons. 

Thanks for sharing some of the difficulties you're discovering in the ministry, and may God meet you in the needs arising in your life and ministry! 

Grace and peace,

Lynette

Hi everyone. Since it's not in accordance with Network guidelines to discuss women in office under this post, since the post isn't about that, I've created a separate post where we can engage on that topic. I would value your contribution if you'd be willing to share your thoughts on that page. Here is the link: 

https://network.crcna.org/topic/leadership/pastors/christian-discussion-women-office#comment-61587

See you there!

 

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