Larry Doornbos

I love Michael's question and would enjoy seeing some comments around it. What do those of you who have engaged the book think, "Is this how evangelicals are perceived or is this what evangelicals have become?"

Hi Dan,

Thanks for joining the conversation. I agree that relevance is not central to the life of the church. Rather it is being faithful to God's call. 

The church is not just another private association vying for members. The church is God’s alternative community i.e. the church is its own city with its own priorities, beliefs, mission, and practices. Perhaps most importantly it has a different purpose and end than the world. It’s purpose and end is seeing all things renewed for the glory of God. 

In this the mission of the church is to be God’s picture, foretaste, and ambassador of His present and coming kingdom. The church becomes irrelevant when it fails in this mission.

Which, I believe, brings us back to Michael's question. The question focused less on relevance and more on who evangelicals have become. Have evangelicals remained faithful to their call to be a picture, foretaste, and ambassador of God's present and coming kingdom or have they been shaped in the way Dr. DuMez outlines in her book? Is the world perceiving evangelicals in a way that isn't true and so they don't have to be concerned, or is the world actually seeing evangelicals as they  are and so they've lost living out the mission of God? So they are no longer truly a picture, foretaste and ambassador to the world.

Governance models differ to a certain extent around the size of congregations. In his book "One Size Doesn't Fit All" Gary Macintosh points out that different size congregations need to think about governance in different ways. The challenge is to discern how to live out those differences within Reformed polity. 

At least as important as a good governance model is the way the leadership views itself. Is it basically a non-profit board, a gatekeeper, or do they view themselves as a community of Spiritual leaders discerning God's call to mission for the local church and how God is calling them to care for one another. Charles Olson’s book Transforming Church Boards into Communities of Spiritual Leaders looks into how councils/boards view themselves (see this post on Vibrant Congregations) and why it matters. You can find a summary of his book in a series of blog posts at Vibrant Congregations. 

If you'd like to explore this more in terms of councils and church size  and spiritual communities you can connect with me via the Vibrant Congregations website. We have a one hour PPT presentation that explains church size and governance. 

See above

See above

My favorite is a monster cookie and if you break them in half all the calories fall out

Hi Mavis,

Thanks for taking the time to interact with this post.

The idea of a personal relationship with Jesus has spilled more than a bit of internet ink over the years. Some who have spilled that ink point out the personal language of the Scripture, the friendship ideas and familial pictures in scripture are also lifted up.

Others who spill the ink point out that the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus is an 19th century innovation that finds its first mention in the work of Horace Bushnell (1864) 

"In this coming again of Christ by the Spirit, there is included also the fact that he will be known by the disciple, not only socially, but as the Christ, in such a way as to put us in a personal relationship with him, even as his own disciples were in their outward society with him."

When it comes to scripture this crew points out that there is little personal language in the scripture that is not plural in nature--so the focus is more on God's relationship to the community and less to the individual.

You can find a good conversation on this at https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/7703/what-is-the-history-of-the-concept-of-a-personal-relationship-with-jesus

One of the things that can happen in using the language of a personal relationship with Jesus idea is what is mentioned in the blog--a self-focus that leads to a "me and Jesus", where Jesus is my personal Jesus who gives me what I want. This is not, of course, a foregone conclusion such language as you so aptly point out, but the words of Grice show that it has become reality for some. 

Into this space Paul's "union with Christ" speaks. J. Todd Billings in his book Union with Christ says, 

"Union with Christ is a central New Testament description of Christian identity, the life of salvation in Christ. It entails giving a new identity such that in Christ, forgiveness and new life are received through the Spirit. Union with Christ involves abiding in the Vine. It means that through the Spirit, sinners are adopted into the household of God as co-heirs with Christ. It means that God's Spirit is poured out to make the life and teachings of Jesus real to us. It implicates our worship, our vocation in the world, and our witness as the church. Union with Christ is theological shorthand for the gospel itself--a key image that pulls together numerous motifs in the biblical witness."

Later in speak of Calvin and Union with Christ Billings notes, 

"The images of union with Christ, ingrafting into Christ, partaking of Christ, and adoption were drawn from Paul and Johannine writings in the New Testament and were deeply woven into the fabric of [Calvin's] soteriology. In the broad portrait of his soteriology, Calvin claims that created human nature is good and that Adam was 'united to God' and 'enjoyed participation in God.' Human beings have been alienated from God and from their true, created nature by the fall. But the final end and goal for humanity is a re-union (emphasis original) of humanity with God in the second Adam, a union even higher than the first. This trinitarian process unites believers to Christ by the Spirit in order to serve the Father in gratitude. In union with Christ, believers are 'participants not only in all his benefits but also in himself.'"

Union with Christ is a wide ranging concept that speaks of being incorporated into God's big story of creation, fall, redemption, recreation; being adopted into God's family, enjoying the benefits of and being called to the responsibilities of that family life. 

Union with Christ does not negate the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus (rightly understood and lived) but it is larger and more communal that a personal relationship with Jesus (again, depending on your definition of what a personal relationship entails ;0) ).

So I would begin with union with Christ and use that as a doorway to defining personal relationship with Jesus--recognizing that personal relationship has for some become simply "me and Jesus" (see Ken Mededma's song from many years ago, "Personal Savior").

Again, thanks so much for joining this conversation. I appreciate your throughful response.

Larry Doornbos

Director, Vibrant Congregations

Want to check out more wisdom from Reggie Smith, the rest of his devotionals can be viewed at Vibrant Congregations Devotional page

We worshipped "at" Pillar Church in Holland. Our family was battling a bit of illness so we joined online

Thanks for a great list of books! Looking forward to exploring them, beginning with Urban Apologetics.