When you write that any body "ultimately makes the rules it makes" I think you also recognize that not only can rules change but the way in which rules and entities are handled also changes. If a company made a rule about a typewriter, for example, they might say that it applies also to a computer, but they could also decide that the advent of the computer is a way to get rid of the rule over time as typewriters went away.
So, synod has ruled on classes. I don't want them to revisit it any more than anyone else does. Those were painful times in the life of our denomination. Unfortunately, we were left with a broken structure that has contributed to a broken culture. So, one thing that I can see the denomination is thinking maybe they can do about it is to sink more resources into this broken entity (classis) and see if it can be redeemed. What I am saying is that I feel quite certain that we will not be healthy until we leave our classis structures, but not the good they do, in the dust.
So, when I see someone like Paul who has so much to contribute to our denomination spending his efforts touting the delights of classis, an all-male entity in my neck of the woods, I figure I should speak up. Let's stop putting this effort into classis and start putting it into the venues and organizations where we do not have votes about whether or not to permit black people to join our denominational decision-making (this really happens today -- we do not permit any black people to be seated at our classis meetings if they are women!)..
So, yes, there are rules and then there is the culture of the denomination given those rules. We are hurtin' for certain in this regard. I am trying to help by calling this out. I think we need to render classis impotent to the extent we can while building up new venues. I understand why many would applaud more resources going into making healthy classes. I understand that might seem like a good direct approach to fixing "us." I am suggesting that I see no way that we will reap the changes we seek by taking this tactic. I think we need to downplay, not play up, our classes, while raising up whatever we come up with as the new approach to regional ministries. This is not a small thing to do, but it will be necessary if we want our denomination to thrive.
I am a futurist, as are many people in the computing industry, and I sometimes get things like this wrong, but my instincts have proven to be very good on such matters over the years. So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table.
OK, I think you are understanding much of my point. What I might not be stating well at all is that classis is not just a problem for those who want to seat women. I think you are aware of the churches that made an issue of classis before I spoke up here. They were not for seating women, they were against it. The fact is that classis is a broken structure. I do not see that we are inclined to fix it, although Hoksbergen's take was informative and could help us get real fixes.
If you agree that the denomination has no stomach for fixing classis right now, then I think that for the sake of "both sides" (recognizing there are more than 2 opinions) and for the sake of the whole, we should make sure that we treat classis as being as insignificant as we possibly can within the policies we have.
As for your last point about going forward and doing things, I am using my gifts to the extent that I know how. I am not going to be starting any skunk-works or other projects of the nature you suggest for a number of reasons. Why I can do is share what I have learned through my experiences to date in providing some recommendations here.
I am suggesting that this blog morph into a blog related to regional ministries, mentioning classis as infrequently as possible rather than being a blog about classis, a structure associated with perhaps the worst of what we have to offer. I would prefer to cheerlead this blog from the sidelines as I think that the entries in this blog related to regional efforts are to be applauded. I know it is far easier to start something new than to change something that exists, so I suspect my suggestion to remove the word "classis" from this blog series and from project proposals and our typical community language will not get far, but I figured if I send out these signals soon enough anothers see that we have some org culture issues too, eventually the right person in the denomination will suggest that we either morph this blog or end it and start a new one. Eventually we will either fix classis or come up with ways to mitigate this. Since I am a futurist (by nature and profession), I thought I would pass along what I see. Maybe someone else sees a better way to move forward, other than either fixing or minimizing classis, but I do not.
I am OK with helping to seed the air with positive directions forward and letting them play out over many years, if need be, but obviously I would prefer to have action sooner than that. cheers! --dawn
I do not know what I did not answer. I really do have a day job ;-) so I'm likely doing this too quickly. So, tracking down the question that is in your response that I missed will take some time. Are you willing to restate it? Thanks. --dawn
I seem to be reading these in the wrong order, so I just caught this one. First of all, the very first pastor who I can remember has the name Al Hoksbergen. If that is you, please know that you made an impression on a 5 year old in Ann Arbor. I considered Rev. Hoksbergen to be very smart and very important.
You make a good point regarding classis. This might be a better tactical approach to address my concerns. With initiatives such as Paul's excellent blog on Classis here, I am "feeling" that we are putting an emphasis on a structure that needs to take on less significance, not more. I do think it is irreparably broken so that we need to grow up other structures at a regional level, but even without going that far, I can see that at the very least if we enforce what is already there -- that classis is not an entity that exists when it is not meeting, for example -- that we will be better off.
My concern is not because I feel personally threatenned regarding all-male classes other than feeling torn because I am willing to play in such a sandbox. I am concerned because I do not see that we can thrive with the directions we are taking. Our seeming newfound emphasis on classis as if it were the regional hub of activity for churches is one of these trends. I am all for regional activity. I really do not want more emphasis put on a group that can vote not to permit black people to be seated at its meetings. I am upset with myself for my willingness to be a part of such an entity, but given that I apparently am willing, I am at least not willing to do so without speaking up. Maybe I simply do not have the personality type of the people who willingly sat in the back of the bus.
Ah, I think I found the question you were pointing me to. Thanks for the response.
OK, you are asking me what my point is. My analogy is not about the mind of other people, it is a magnifying glass on how I interpret behaviors so that others can see why I am so torn. Given that our church deems my interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable, now I have to figure out how to function practically in a way that doesn't cause me to be a member of a country club that does not permit black tee times. This should help you understand why I cannot simply let the matter rest for all eternity. I obviously want my country club to open its doors to black people.
By the way, I know of no churches around here who take "not permit women to teach or have authority over men" literally. All those I know about have women Sunday School teachers. Most have had women even teaching adult ed, I suspect. So, I'm not sure how that comes into play in this case. We are talking about classis deciding not to seat women. This is not something discussed in any literal way in Scripture at all to my knowledge, although maybe if we give the women hats we would permit them to be seated? smiles --dawn
I agree that it should be decided at the church level. I would prefer that there be no blocking churches in the denomination, but I would prefer that there be female Catholic priests too. I do think that there is a correlation between the way our churches treat women and the way they are mistreated in society, but I can accept that it is not my calling to work directly to change the Catholic church nor every CRC congregation.
Given that I agree that such decisions should be made by the congregations and I agree with Paul that our denomination would not be well-served by bringing up this topic at any foreseeable synod, the question is a tactical one. How can we help the CRC thrive given that we have this unfortunate sour culture at the level of classis?
My suggestion is that we minimize the importance of classis as much as we can and focus on those aspects of our church that do not lock women out. We can work regionally without involving classis at all. I would prefer we not put resources, such as an entire blog, into our classes. I would like to see Paul's blog talk about regional ministries, including inter-denominational, without any mention or use of classis. Classis strikes a sour chord and it appears that it will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I would like to see us be creative, visionary, and thriving by doing something altogether different. I realize it is just my instincts vs those of others, but I feel pretty confident that classis has a fatal flaw. Let's figure out how to move beyond it. --dawn
I fully understand that there were once very fair understandings of Scripture where those holding them thought that owning slaves was Biblical. I fully understand that there are also "fair interpretations" that prompt women to cover their heads. Similarly, there are fair interpretations that people use to lock women out of church offices. I fully understand that honest, God-fearing, Bible-believing, ... Christians can disagree on these matters.
An analogy is a model. "All models are flawed, but some are useful." [My recollection is that I quoted this from George Box in a ppt about a decade ago, but I'm not googling it now so the author mght be someone else]
The analogy of locking out blacks from tee times at a country club to locking out women from sitting and voting at classis meetings is a fair analogy. These are not identical scenarios, they are simply analogous. This is a useful analogy, not for condemning those who exclude women but for helping those who might not otherwise understand why those who are pro-women-in-office suffer from issues of conscience just as some who are against it do.
Analogies are simply models, not the real thing. As I once wrote in a data modeling blog entry "models are anorexic versions of the real thing." Analogies are models intended to illuminate some point, not all points. I hope that helps clarify.
Well, if intent is helpful, I can assure you that my intent is to help our church move forward. I have no intent whatsoever in trying to harm any individual. I make an analogy to show how I think of this topic, not to explain anyone else's thought process on this topic. If someone else does not feel that by excluded women they are doing anything analogous to excluding black people, then they would surely not feel the strong need that I have to rectify the situation. I am not their judge, nor am I intending to be. I have never suggested that John or anyone else is like anyone bad. I do not know his heart. I am not pointing a finger at him at all. I am pointing a finger at myself. I am living in a way that does not align with what I think is right. I am doing that by being a member of the CRC. Most of those tortured by this have left, I suspect. I do not want to leave, but by staying I have this conflict.
So, there is nothing in me that would compare any individual to anyone bad, for example. Yes, you are correct that the analogy is for a particular purpose. I can see that some people, such as John Zylstra, might take away something from the analogy that I am not intending. I would advise such people to listen more carefully. I am not talking about them at all. I am talking about what I am currently doing to be complicit in the wrongs committed against women, from my perspective. I am asking that we, together, help the church so that people like both John and me can function with in it. I have even worked through some possibilities on how this could be accomplished, so I suspect it is possible. I feel in my gut that it will not happen by directing new efforts into raising up the work of our classis to be greater than it the minimal that it needs to be at this point in time.
I can see that you understand why there were Christians in the past who used Scripture to justify owning slaves. I do not think I have referred to that as racism but as "owning slaves" where I will call separate drinking fountains and back of the bus behavior racism. Of course we had brothers and sisters in Christ who called this "separateness" and justified why this was a good thing for two cultures to live side by side and not intermix. There are many things we have declared in the name of Scripture, using Bible passages that even seem very relevant. I am not arguing any of that at this point. I am asking "how, then, shall we live?" given our differences.
Thanks for the write-up, Paul. I understand your perspective on this. However, I encourage you to read what you wrote by replacing the word "Dawn" with "a minority male" and the word women with "minority men" etc. You seem to be suggesting "Hey, if the culture doesn't want black men to participate, then let's roll with it." If we really had a part of the country that did not want black people at classis, would you suggest that is fine?
The issue for me is no longer that there is discrimination in the world. I know I am not going to be able to get the Catholic church to change and have women priests, for example, nor even change CRC churches that wish to keep blocking women. Where this rips at my conscience, much as it likely does for someone opposed to women (outside of the kitchen and bedroom) to see women voting at a classis meeting, is when I realize that I really seem to be willing to be a member of a country club that does not permit minority tee times. I am appalled by myself for participating in this injustice.
Why am I willing to continue to do something that is so clearly wrong to me? This is also not about me, it is about the willingness to continue to help our society perpetuate a place for women that is tied into many much more dreadful treatments of women both in and outside of North America. By being a member of a classis that blocks women, what is my involvement in the mistreatment of women in other ways around the world? My email tagline was once "think globally, act locally."
I do agree with you on this point "I am disinclined to advocate for a synodical level effort to force these classes to change their policies." I do not think it would be good to drag this through synod for a few more rounds either. Enough people have been battered and many have left the denomination to get to this point. I was in a PCUSA service on Easter with former CRC members, for example.
You seem willing to accept a few black men blocked from our classes, or the analogous. Hey ho, not everyone thinks the Bible tells us that we need to include minorities in our work, so let's not rock the boat. I think we are being complicit in some terrible ills in the world by blocking women, just as we would be if blocking minorities. I understand that others are fine with it, but our structure requires that I participate in this injustice rather than more simply living side by side with it. So, given that we agree that it would not be good for synod to address it, let's at least take a first step to make classis as irrelevant as possible and then work to put in place a new structure that does not have this problem. I hope you can at least understand my disappointed that the denomination seems to be putting a bunch of resources toward this remaining women-blocking organization that I am compelled to be part of if I remain CRC.
I have to close this machine up, so one more quick response, not doing justice to all that has been written. I agree with you, Paul, regarding taking on a victim stance. I certainly do not see myself as a direct victim in this, even if recognizing that unlike the civil rights movement, when all women are locked out of this or that, I am part of that gender. I see myself as complicit in victimizing other women. Just because we, ourselves, do not want to claim we have been victimized, if we see someone punched in the face, we surely do not want to chide them if they scream, suggesting that they are acting like a victim.
There really are real victims out there and I know that I really am part of the problem where i want to be part of the solution. Throughout the world women are often treated as second class citizens. I am only trying to "act locally" by making noise here in this CRC forum as I am very familiar with the CRC.
I'm a bit confused that first you seem to imply that I take on a victim stance and then you ask me to pretend I am a victim. I do not have any goals nor delusions of ever being an officer in the CRC. So, I can speak out on behalf of victims, recognizing my part in harming them and working to overcome it, but I do not feel that it would be helpful for me to run through a scenario of this nature. My take is that we have some brokenness in our midst and can either go along as we are now, which to me seems like we are sweeping things under the carpet and not building a thriving church, or we can recognize we have this disease and work to overcome it.
Yes, please note that I applaud all of the good things done by all of the fine people related to classis. My point is that we have a limit in our ability to thrive as a denomination that directly relates to a classis structure that has no means to purge the wrongs it is perpetuating both in the denomination and in the world. If anyone has a road map that shows us opening up all classes to women without going through synod (something that no one I know thinks would be a good approach), then I'm all ears. Not only is such a road map lacking, no one at all is working on it.
Maybe we hope that all people who really care about the problems faced by women in the world or who think we are complicit in such wrongs have left for greener pastures. They have not all left, however. We can guess that most of those whose conscience was bound by having women church officers has left, given that we now permit women to be seated and voting at synod. Those of us who grew up CRC and are pro-women have surely gained patience. Many have decided to simply be quiet on this topic for the duration. In any case, whether we are quiet or not, classis has a fatal illness. We have no means of fixing it. So, when you write about the joy of combining classes with the RCA, you are raising up healthy classes, perhaps pretending this could ever happen across our denomination in some positive way. While I realize no one wants to hear the "b" word and I surely know that no one is intending their behaviors to come from any form of biogry, when I heard you extol the virtues of classis (and there surely are some), it "feels" like you are saying "Hey, CRC -- we can be healthier if we put more eggs in our biogtry basket." Do you understnd why I hear it this way?
Ok, so a plan to move beyond it -- you know I have painted a broad stroke picture that would accomplish this. There are many ways to do this, but all of them are big, not tiny little steps. On the "tiny steps now" front what we can do is talk about what is happening regionally without mentioning classis. Then we include all churches and members of those churches. We could start by renaming this blog "Church regions" and try to narrow our discussion of classis down to only those things where we know that we are blocking women and that is simply where our denomination is right now. Let's now bring up the "c" word anywhere else. It is a painful part of our denomation and one that none of us knows how to redeem. The efforts to try can make some positive changes in the world, no doubt, but none that could not also be made by a focus on how to work with churches within regions.
I'm just tossing this out for discussion. It really is the case that if anyone could lay out a plan that would eliminate the bigotry that our classis represents through some means other than to come up with a way to eliminate the "culture of classis" from our midst, I'm all ears. Cheers! --dawn
I am trying to catch up and will undoubtedly miss some questions, perhaps some directed toward me. I'll tackle this one as it is the first one I am seeing.
Yes, I understand why you might say "ah, come on," however I do want you to understand that I am not accusing any individuals other than myself of bigoted behavior. I am indicating that our church seems to have no means for me to be a member without knowingly living a life of sin in this regard. If others think this means that they too are sinning, then that is outside of the scope of my statements, but I can see how this can be logically derived from my statements about my own behavior. I am honestly making no such accusations in this situation, however.
I realize that I will be living my life side by side with people who block women from this or that. Of course I want all such behavior to stop, just as I want to eliminate hunger. I cannot purge the world of all such ills and I do not go around judging others. I know that it is not my job to judge in that way. I am called to align my own behavior with what is right, however.
So, my statements here are not intended to change the minds of anyone who might think that they have been called to lock women out of church offices. I no longer have what it takes to carry on a dialog on that topic. I no longer feel that any good can come out of me addressing questions such Jesus choosing 12 men as disciples. If this is such strong evidence to you of something, I would think I should hear more (or ANY) sermons about how I should not be a disciple.
My interest is in the question of how the CRC can thrive, given people like me and others equally convinced that women must suffer lock-outs. Over the course of my career, I have worked hard to leave those organizations with whom I have worked, whether as an employee, a vendor, a customer, or a partner in any respect better off than when I started working with them. It is, therefore, difficult to see my denomination seem to be in a state of decline.
My statements here are about how to take the CRC today and help it grow and thrive into the future. I have ideas on how to do this, but others might have even better ideas than mine (not provided in any detail here -- it would take a book!). My design for thriving include minimizing the work of classis and growing up other efforts that help provide a better culture within the CRC. That is why I am responding to Paul's blog on Classis.
The fact that I can see no way for the denomination to thrive if we put any sort of focus on classis does not imply that no one can come up wtih a means to fix things while retaining classis as it stands. I simply cannot see it. My intuition on this is not backed by clear business intelligence, although I have reviewed various charts regarding our decline and my intuition has some basis in experience. If I could hear anyone else give a clear strategy for getting from here to there while also trying to raise the importance of classis or even keep it the same, I would definitely listen. I have pictures and designs in my head for how the denomination could thrive (please tell my head to STOP as no one has asked me to do this!!!) and all of them require giving classis the most minimal role we can at this point and working to replace it over time. I do not think that synod should address women-in-church-offices again, but what we have now is not workable, in my opinion.
If you see a path for us to put more into our sometimes all-male classes and have a culture that permits us to thrive into the future, please lay out a plan. I just can't see it. I want us to thrive. I think we need to give classis as minimal a role as required and work to replace it over time. I realize I did not provide a ton of facts, but I did provide one. We appear to be continuing in some state of decline. I can see some ways to get us out of it provided we give classis as minimal a role as possible. That's all I'm trying to say while providing some rationale by showing you the culture I'm living in -- where given that I want to be a member of a CRC church I am compelled to live in a way that I feel and think is sinful. This is not about making it easier for me. It is about a culture that is broken and could be fixed. I suspect if you can fix this issue for me, you can do a lot to repair the culture of our denomination. --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
When you write that any body "ultimately makes the rules it makes" I think you also recognize that not only can rules change but the way in which rules and entities are handled also changes. If a company made a rule about a typewriter, for example, they might say that it applies also to a computer, but they could also decide that the advent of the computer is a way to get rid of the rule over time as typewriters went away.
So, synod has ruled on classes. I don't want them to revisit it any more than anyone else does. Those were painful times in the life of our denomination. Unfortunately, we were left with a broken structure that has contributed to a broken culture. So, one thing that I can see the denomination is thinking maybe they can do about it is to sink more resources into this broken entity (classis) and see if it can be redeemed. What I am saying is that I feel quite certain that we will not be healthy until we leave our classis structures, but not the good they do, in the dust.
So, when I see someone like Paul who has so much to contribute to our denomination spending his efforts touting the delights of classis, an all-male entity in my neck of the woods, I figure I should speak up. Let's stop putting this effort into classis and start putting it into the venues and organizations where we do not have votes about whether or not to permit black people to join our denominational decision-making (this really happens today -- we do not permit any black people to be seated at our classis meetings if they are women!)..
So, yes, there are rules and then there is the culture of the denomination given those rules. We are hurtin' for certain in this regard. I am trying to help by calling this out. I think we need to render classis impotent to the extent we can while building up new venues. I understand why many would applaud more resources going into making healthy classes. I understand that might seem like a good direct approach to fixing "us." I am suggesting that I see no way that we will reap the changes we seek by taking this tactic. I think we need to downplay, not play up, our classes, while raising up whatever we come up with as the new approach to regional ministries. This is not a small thing to do, but it will be necessary if we want our denomination to thrive.
I am a futurist, as are many people in the computing industry, and I sometimes get things like this wrong, but my instincts have proven to be very good on such matters over the years. So one piece of advice I have for the CRC is to figure out how to build up the structures that build up people, not the ones that deny them a seat at the table.
Cheers! --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
OK, I think you are understanding much of my point. What I might not be stating well at all is that classis is not just a problem for those who want to seat women. I think you are aware of the churches that made an issue of classis before I spoke up here. They were not for seating women, they were against it. The fact is that classis is a broken structure. I do not see that we are inclined to fix it, although Hoksbergen's take was informative and could help us get real fixes.
If you agree that the denomination has no stomach for fixing classis right now, then I think that for the sake of "both sides" (recognizing there are more than 2 opinions) and for the sake of the whole, we should make sure that we treat classis as being as insignificant as we possibly can within the policies we have.
As for your last point about going forward and doing things, I am using my gifts to the extent that I know how. I am not going to be starting any skunk-works or other projects of the nature you suggest for a number of reasons. Why I can do is share what I have learned through my experiences to date in providing some recommendations here.
I am suggesting that this blog morph into a blog related to regional ministries, mentioning classis as infrequently as possible rather than being a blog about classis, a structure associated with perhaps the worst of what we have to offer. I would prefer to cheerlead this blog from the sidelines as I think that the entries in this blog related to regional efforts are to be applauded. I know it is far easier to start something new than to change something that exists, so I suspect my suggestion to remove the word "classis" from this blog series and from project proposals and our typical community language will not get far, but I figured if I send out these signals soon enough anothers see that we have some org culture issues too, eventually the right person in the denomination will suggest that we either morph this blog or end it and start a new one. Eventually we will either fix classis or come up with ways to mitigate this. Since I am a futurist (by nature and profession), I thought I would pass along what I see. Maybe someone else sees a better way to move forward, other than either fixing or minimizing classis, but I do not.
I am OK with helping to seed the air with positive directions forward and letting them play out over many years, if need be, but obviously I would prefer to have action sooner than that. cheers! --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I do not know what I did not answer. I really do have a day job ;-) so I'm likely doing this too quickly. So, tracking down the question that is in your response that I missed will take some time. Are you willing to restate it? Thanks. --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I seem to be reading these in the wrong order, so I just caught this one. First of all, the very first pastor who I can remember has the name Al Hoksbergen. If that is you, please know that you made an impression on a 5 year old in Ann Arbor. I considered Rev. Hoksbergen to be very smart and very important.
You make a good point regarding classis. This might be a better tactical approach to address my concerns. With initiatives such as Paul's excellent blog on Classis here, I am "feeling" that we are putting an emphasis on a structure that needs to take on less significance, not more. I do think it is irreparably broken so that we need to grow up other structures at a regional level, but even without going that far, I can see that at the very least if we enforce what is already there -- that classis is not an entity that exists when it is not meeting, for example -- that we will be better off.
My concern is not because I feel personally threatenned regarding all-male classes other than feeling torn because I am willing to play in such a sandbox. I am concerned because I do not see that we can thrive with the directions we are taking. Our seeming newfound emphasis on classis as if it were the regional hub of activity for churches is one of these trends. I am all for regional activity. I really do not want more emphasis put on a group that can vote not to permit black people to be seated at its meetings. I am upset with myself for my willingness to be a part of such an entity, but given that I apparently am willing, I am at least not willing to do so without speaking up. Maybe I simply do not have the personality type of the people who willingly sat in the back of the bus.
Thanks for your comments. --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Ah, I think I found the question you were pointing me to. Thanks for the response.
OK, you are asking me what my point is. My analogy is not about the mind of other people, it is a magnifying glass on how I interpret behaviors so that others can see why I am so torn. Given that our church deems my interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable, now I have to figure out how to function practically in a way that doesn't cause me to be a member of a country club that does not permit black tee times. This should help you understand why I cannot simply let the matter rest for all eternity. I obviously want my country club to open its doors to black people.
By the way, I know of no churches around here who take "not permit women to teach or have authority over men" literally. All those I know about have women Sunday School teachers. Most have had women even teaching adult ed, I suspect. So, I'm not sure how that comes into play in this case. We are talking about classis deciding not to seat women. This is not something discussed in any literal way in Scripture at all to my knowledge, although maybe if we give the women hats we would permit them to be seated? smiles --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I agree that it should be decided at the church level. I would prefer that there be no blocking churches in the denomination, but I would prefer that there be female Catholic priests too. I do think that there is a correlation between the way our churches treat women and the way they are mistreated in society, but I can accept that it is not my calling to work directly to change the Catholic church nor every CRC congregation.
Given that I agree that such decisions should be made by the congregations and I agree with Paul that our denomination would not be well-served by bringing up this topic at any foreseeable synod, the question is a tactical one. How can we help the CRC thrive given that we have this unfortunate sour culture at the level of classis?
My suggestion is that we minimize the importance of classis as much as we can and focus on those aspects of our church that do not lock women out. We can work regionally without involving classis at all. I would prefer we not put resources, such as an entire blog, into our classes. I would like to see Paul's blog talk about regional ministries, including inter-denominational, without any mention or use of classis. Classis strikes a sour chord and it appears that it will continue to do so for the rest of my life. I would like to see us be creative, visionary, and thriving by doing something altogether different. I realize it is just my instincts vs those of others, but I feel pretty confident that classis has a fatal flaw. Let's figure out how to move beyond it. --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I fully understand that there were once very fair understandings of Scripture where those holding them thought that owning slaves was Biblical. I fully understand that there are also "fair interpretations" that prompt women to cover their heads. Similarly, there are fair interpretations that people use to lock women out of church offices. I fully understand that honest, God-fearing, Bible-believing, ... Christians can disagree on these matters.
An analogy is a model. "All models are flawed, but some are useful." [My recollection is that I quoted this from George Box in a ppt about a decade ago, but I'm not googling it now so the author mght be someone else]
The analogy of locking out blacks from tee times at a country club to locking out women from sitting and voting at classis meetings is a fair analogy. These are not identical scenarios, they are simply analogous. This is a useful analogy, not for condemning those who exclude women but for helping those who might not otherwise understand why those who are pro-women-in-office suffer from issues of conscience just as some who are against it do.
Analogies are simply models, not the real thing. As I once wrote in a data modeling blog entry "models are anorexic versions of the real thing." Analogies are models intended to illuminate some point, not all points. I hope that helps clarify.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Well, if intent is helpful, I can assure you that my intent is to help our church move forward. I have no intent whatsoever in trying to harm any individual. I make an analogy to show how I think of this topic, not to explain anyone else's thought process on this topic. If someone else does not feel that by excluded women they are doing anything analogous to excluding black people, then they would surely not feel the strong need that I have to rectify the situation. I am not their judge, nor am I intending to be. I have never suggested that John or anyone else is like anyone bad. I do not know his heart. I am not pointing a finger at him at all. I am pointing a finger at myself. I am living in a way that does not align with what I think is right. I am doing that by being a member of the CRC. Most of those tortured by this have left, I suspect. I do not want to leave, but by staying I have this conflict.
So, there is nothing in me that would compare any individual to anyone bad, for example. Yes, you are correct that the analogy is for a particular purpose. I can see that some people, such as John Zylstra, might take away something from the analogy that I am not intending. I would advise such people to listen more carefully. I am not talking about them at all. I am talking about what I am currently doing to be complicit in the wrongs committed against women, from my perspective. I am asking that we, together, help the church so that people like both John and me can function with in it. I have even worked through some possibilities on how this could be accomplished, so I suspect it is possible. I feel in my gut that it will not happen by directing new efforts into raising up the work of our classis to be greater than it the minimal that it needs to be at this point in time.
I can see that you understand why there were Christians in the past who used Scripture to justify owning slaves. I do not think I have referred to that as racism but as "owning slaves" where I will call separate drinking fountains and back of the bus behavior racism. Of course we had brothers and sisters in Christ who called this "separateness" and justified why this was a good thing for two cultures to live side by side and not intermix. There are many things we have declared in the name of Scripture, using Bible passages that even seem very relevant. I am not arguing any of that at this point. I am asking "how, then, shall we live?" given our differences.
--dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Thanks for the write-up, Paul. I understand your perspective on this. However, I encourage you to read what you wrote by replacing the word "Dawn" with "a minority male" and the word women with "minority men" etc. You seem to be suggesting "Hey, if the culture doesn't want black men to participate, then let's roll with it." If we really had a part of the country that did not want black people at classis, would you suggest that is fine?
The issue for me is no longer that there is discrimination in the world. I know I am not going to be able to get the Catholic church to change and have women priests, for example, nor even change CRC churches that wish to keep blocking women. Where this rips at my conscience, much as it likely does for someone opposed to women (outside of the kitchen and bedroom) to see women voting at a classis meeting, is when I realize that I really seem to be willing to be a member of a country club that does not permit minority tee times. I am appalled by myself for participating in this injustice.
Why am I willing to continue to do something that is so clearly wrong to me? This is also not about me, it is about the willingness to continue to help our society perpetuate a place for women that is tied into many much more dreadful treatments of women both in and outside of North America. By being a member of a classis that blocks women, what is my involvement in the mistreatment of women in other ways around the world? My email tagline was once "think globally, act locally."
I do agree with you on this point "I am disinclined to advocate for a synodical level effort to force these classes to change their policies." I do not think it would be good to drag this through synod for a few more rounds either. Enough people have been battered and many have left the denomination to get to this point. I was in a PCUSA service on Easter with former CRC members, for example.
You seem willing to accept a few black men blocked from our classes, or the analogous. Hey ho, not everyone thinks the Bible tells us that we need to include minorities in our work, so let's not rock the boat. I think we are being complicit in some terrible ills in the world by blocking women, just as we would be if blocking minorities. I understand that others are fine with it, but our structure requires that I participate in this injustice rather than more simply living side by side with it. So, given that we agree that it would not be good for synod to address it, let's at least take a first step to make classis as irrelevant as possible and then work to put in place a new structure that does not have this problem. I hope you can at least understand my disappointed that the denomination seems to be putting a bunch of resources toward this remaining women-blocking organization that I am compelled to be part of if I remain CRC.
Does that make any sense to you? --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I have to close this machine up, so one more quick response, not doing justice to all that has been written. I agree with you, Paul, regarding taking on a victim stance. I certainly do not see myself as a direct victim in this, even if recognizing that unlike the civil rights movement, when all women are locked out of this or that, I am part of that gender. I see myself as complicit in victimizing other women. Just because we, ourselves, do not want to claim we have been victimized, if we see someone punched in the face, we surely do not want to chide them if they scream, suggesting that they are acting like a victim.
There really are real victims out there and I know that I really am part of the problem where i want to be part of the solution. Throughout the world women are often treated as second class citizens. I am only trying to "act locally" by making noise here in this CRC forum as I am very familiar with the CRC.
I'm a bit confused that first you seem to imply that I take on a victim stance and then you ask me to pretend I am a victim. I do not have any goals nor delusions of ever being an officer in the CRC. So, I can speak out on behalf of victims, recognizing my part in harming them and working to overcome it, but I do not feel that it would be helpful for me to run through a scenario of this nature. My take is that we have some brokenness in our midst and can either go along as we are now, which to me seems like we are sweeping things under the carpet and not building a thriving church, or we can recognize we have this disease and work to overcome it.
--dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Yes, please note that I applaud all of the good things done by all of the fine people related to classis. My point is that we have a limit in our ability to thrive as a denomination that directly relates to a classis structure that has no means to purge the wrongs it is perpetuating both in the denomination and in the world. If anyone has a road map that shows us opening up all classes to women without going through synod (something that no one I know thinks would be a good approach), then I'm all ears. Not only is such a road map lacking, no one at all is working on it.
Maybe we hope that all people who really care about the problems faced by women in the world or who think we are complicit in such wrongs have left for greener pastures. They have not all left, however. We can guess that most of those whose conscience was bound by having women church officers has left, given that we now permit women to be seated and voting at synod. Those of us who grew up CRC and are pro-women have surely gained patience. Many have decided to simply be quiet on this topic for the duration. In any case, whether we are quiet or not, classis has a fatal illness. We have no means of fixing it. So, when you write about the joy of combining classes with the RCA, you are raising up healthy classes, perhaps pretending this could ever happen across our denomination in some positive way. While I realize no one wants to hear the "b" word and I surely know that no one is intending their behaviors to come from any form of biogry, when I heard you extol the virtues of classis (and there surely are some), it "feels" like you are saying "Hey, CRC -- we can be healthier if we put more eggs in our biogtry basket." Do you understnd why I hear it this way?
Ok, so a plan to move beyond it -- you know I have painted a broad stroke picture that would accomplish this. There are many ways to do this, but all of them are big, not tiny little steps. On the "tiny steps now" front what we can do is talk about what is happening regionally without mentioning classis. Then we include all churches and members of those churches. We could start by renaming this blog "Church regions" and try to narrow our discussion of classis down to only those things where we know that we are blocking women and that is simply where our denomination is right now. Let's now bring up the "c" word anywhere else. It is a painful part of our denomation and one that none of us knows how to redeem. The efforts to try can make some positive changes in the world, no doubt, but none that could not also be made by a focus on how to work with churches within regions.
I'm just tossing this out for discussion. It really is the case that if anyone could lay out a plan that would eliminate the bigotry that our classis represents through some means other than to come up with a way to eliminate the "culture of classis" from our midst, I'm all ears. Cheers! --dawn
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I am trying to catch up and will undoubtedly miss some questions, perhaps some directed toward me. I'll tackle this one as it is the first one I am seeing.
Yes, I understand why you might say "ah, come on," however I do want you to understand that I am not accusing any individuals other than myself of bigoted behavior. I am indicating that our church seems to have no means for me to be a member without knowingly living a life of sin in this regard. If others think this means that they too are sinning, then that is outside of the scope of my statements, but I can see how this can be logically derived from my statements about my own behavior. I am honestly making no such accusations in this situation, however.
I realize that I will be living my life side by side with people who block women from this or that. Of course I want all such behavior to stop, just as I want to eliminate hunger. I cannot purge the world of all such ills and I do not go around judging others. I know that it is not my job to judge in that way. I am called to align my own behavior with what is right, however.
So, my statements here are not intended to change the minds of anyone who might think that they have been called to lock women out of church offices. I no longer have what it takes to carry on a dialog on that topic. I no longer feel that any good can come out of me addressing questions such Jesus choosing 12 men as disciples. If this is such strong evidence to you of something, I would think I should hear more (or ANY) sermons about how I should not be a disciple.
My interest is in the question of how the CRC can thrive, given people like me and others equally convinced that women must suffer lock-outs. Over the course of my career, I have worked hard to leave those organizations with whom I have worked, whether as an employee, a vendor, a customer, or a partner in any respect better off than when I started working with them. It is, therefore, difficult to see my denomination seem to be in a state of decline.
My statements here are about how to take the CRC today and help it grow and thrive into the future. I have ideas on how to do this, but others might have even better ideas than mine (not provided in any detail here -- it would take a book!). My design for thriving include minimizing the work of classis and growing up other efforts that help provide a better culture within the CRC. That is why I am responding to Paul's blog on Classis.
The fact that I can see no way for the denomination to thrive if we put any sort of focus on classis does not imply that no one can come up wtih a means to fix things while retaining classis as it stands. I simply cannot see it. My intuition on this is not backed by clear business intelligence, although I have reviewed various charts regarding our decline and my intuition has some basis in experience. If I could hear anyone else give a clear strategy for getting from here to there while also trying to raise the importance of classis or even keep it the same, I would definitely listen. I have pictures and designs in my head for how the denomination could thrive (please tell my head to STOP as no one has asked me to do this!!!) and all of them require giving classis the most minimal role we can at this point and working to replace it over time. I do not think that synod should address women-in-church-offices again, but what we have now is not workable, in my opinion.
If you see a path for us to put more into our sometimes all-male classes and have a culture that permits us to thrive into the future, please lay out a plan. I just can't see it. I want us to thrive. I think we need to give classis as minimal a role as required and work to replace it over time. I realize I did not provide a ton of facts, but I did provide one. We appear to be continuing in some state of decline. I can see some ways to get us out of it provided we give classis as minimal a role as possible. That's all I'm trying to say while providing some rationale by showing you the culture I'm living in -- where given that I want to be a member of a CRC church I am compelled to live in a way that I feel and think is sinful. This is not about making it easier for me. It is about a culture that is broken and could be fixed. I suspect if you can fix this issue for me, you can do a lot to repair the culture of our denomination. --dawn