The case will certainly have to be strong to convince synod that the committee followed mandate given last year. I find little difference between the two versions.
The First CO and the now updated one are essentially the same. Without the phrase "fully agree with God's Word" the statement to "conform" our preaching to them means little. In fact, without the phrase "fully agree" why even have the CO?
What ends up happening is that we find ourselves in the same place as our Dutch forebears did in 1816 when the FoS was changed to read something like "in so far as" the confessions agree with God's Word.
If the HC, BC, and CD do not fully agree with God's Word, then we will only conform our preaching and teaching to them in so far as we think they agree with God's Word.
In the Netherlands after the FoS was changed, people started teaching things contrary to scripture. Arminian theology stood side by side with Calvinism....and there are many more historical examples. This kind of thing will likely happen in the CRC if the CO is adopted. Has your revision committee taken this history into account? Maybe you have. Maybe you want to steer us in the direction the church did a couple hundred years ago. I am sure you are aware too, that Abraham Kuyper led a movement away from this trend. We trace our history to the doleantie.
Are we not seeing a repeat of Gresham Machen’s battle? It seems like it from posts I have read from many pastor’s blogs such as John Suk.
When I signed the FoS, I was proud. It was a moment where I felt connected with our great heritage and with Godly people who have gone before us. It made me proud I was part of this denomination. It gave me courage to teach and defend the Gospel.
I agree with Chad, the FoS is not broken. What is broken is our church compromising the truth. Chad's warnings ring true.
Kevin De Young makes an excellent point in his book Why We Love the Church: “My observation is that as people grow tired of hearing about the atonement, salvation, the cross, and the afterlife, they grow tired of the church. Because the more that sin and redemption recede into the background…the more the church becomes just one among several options for making a difference in the world” (page 51).
The FoS and our strong confessional heritage is what helps us stay in the Word and thus enables us to be relevant to this world. Without the FoS and being a confessional church, we lose our relevance.
James Dekker writes, "They recommended a few change in diction without seriously changing the tone or content of the proposed Covenant."
How can you call the addition of "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend" a few changes in diction? It changed the whole document!
The first two versions of the CO essentially destroyed any notion of having doctrinal standards. The advisory committee saved the day. We still have doctrinal standards because of the work of the advisory committee.
The reason why the vote was unanimous is because of the changes the advisory committee made.
My passion is to strengthen the love for our confessions.
It is beautiful to see six high school students in my profession of faith class be able to clearly explain verbally to me and before the elders ULTIP, the inerrency and infallability of scripture, the substitutionary atonement, and other truths. Our confessions are not out of touch if high school students can verbally explain key doctrines I taught from those confessions.
We have a man in his young 20s and a woman in her mid fifties. Both come from prison backgrounds. They are hungry for the Word. What better way to teach them about the faith than take them through our confessions? They are hungry for truth and eat the complicated and uncomplicated stuff right up.
These two attended a synod awareness class I hosted last month. When they saw the difference in the CO vs the FOS, they were offended our denomination would consider removing the language "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend."
What a great illustration about your daughter comprehending deep and essential truths.
We contemplated doing some VBS material. We looked at how it treated sin. It treated sin so lightly as if just by breakign parents' rules you sin. We decided against the material.
We looked and seemingly found material that treats sin for what it is--total depravity. sin is our actions, but we have a sinful condition we are born in. And we felt unless kids understand how deep our misery really is, they cannot know Jesus. We don't want to teach our kids to be good Pharisees by using moralistic and exemplaristic VBS material. We beleive kids can understand quite well Lord's Day 3.
Why wait until high school to treach them these truths? If we put in the effort as parents and sunday school teachers, our children are much more capable than what some might think.
And for those who have difficulty with the CO, I ask why are you part of this denomination? Is it biblical and Christ-like to purposely cause division of this nature? If you can't sign it, then why are you in the CRC? If you can't buy into the organization then go someplace or submit to the organziation. Those who do not believe women should be in office submit to prevoius decisions, can't you do the same?
This article was awesome. I hope this gets in the hands of congregation members. I have talked to many pastors who have had times of weeping because all they hear is criticism. Some pastors go through long spells of no appreciation shown. Unfortuantely, many pators are "expendable" to them--if they don't like somethign, they can be run out of town and treated like garbage.
Here are some stats that Thabiti Anyabwile cites from The Schaeffer Institute in an article he writes called "Don't Make Your Pastor a Statistic." http://www.9marks.org/blog/dont-make-your-pastor-statistic I hope the stats are better for our denomination.
Health and Well-Being
70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
50% of pastors feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way of making a living.
Marriage and Family
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
80% of spouses feel the pastor is overworked.
80% spouses feel left out and under-appreciated by church members.
Church Relationships
70% do not have someone they consider a close friend
Longevity
50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
1 out of every 10 ministers will actually retire as a minister in some form
Posted in: Form of Subscription or Covenant: An Eternal Debate?
The case will certainly have to be strong to convince synod that the committee followed mandate given last year. I find little difference between the two versions.
The First CO and the now updated one are essentially the same. Without the phrase "fully agree with God's Word" the statement to "conform" our preaching to them means little. In fact, without the phrase "fully agree" why even have the CO?
What ends up happening is that we find ourselves in the same place as our Dutch forebears did in 1816 when the FoS was changed to read something like "in so far as" the confessions agree with God's Word.
If the HC, BC, and CD do not fully agree with God's Word, then we will only conform our preaching and teaching to them in so far as we think they agree with God's Word.
In the Netherlands after the FoS was changed, people started teaching things contrary to scripture. Arminian theology stood side by side with Calvinism....and there are many more historical examples. This kind of thing will likely happen in the CRC if the CO is adopted. Has your revision committee taken this history into account? Maybe you have. Maybe you want to steer us in the direction the church did a couple hundred years ago. I am sure you are aware too, that Abraham Kuyper led a movement away from this trend. We trace our history to the doleantie.
Are we not seeing a repeat of Gresham Machen’s battle? It seems like it from posts I have read from many pastor’s blogs such as John Suk.
When I signed the FoS, I was proud. It was a moment where I felt connected with our great heritage and with Godly people who have gone before us. It made me proud I was part of this denomination. It gave me courage to teach and defend the Gospel.
I agree with Chad, the FoS is not broken. What is broken is our church compromising the truth. Chad's warnings ring true.
Kevin De Young makes an excellent point in his book Why We Love the Church: “My observation is that as people grow tired of hearing about the atonement, salvation, the cross, and the afterlife, they grow tired of the church. Because the more that sin and redemption recede into the background…the more the church becomes just one among several options for making a difference in the world” (page 51).
The FoS and our strong confessional heritage is what helps us stay in the Word and thus enables us to be relevant to this world. Without the FoS and being a confessional church, we lose our relevance.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
James Dekker writes, "They recommended a few change in diction without seriously changing the tone or content of the proposed Covenant."
How can you call the addition of "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend" a few changes in diction? It changed the whole document!
The first two versions of the CO essentially destroyed any notion of having doctrinal standards. The advisory committee saved the day. We still have doctrinal standards because of the work of the advisory committee.
The reason why the vote was unanimous is because of the changes the advisory committee made.
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
My passion is to strengthen the love for our confessions.
It is beautiful to see six high school students in my profession of faith class be able to clearly explain verbally to me and before the elders ULTIP, the inerrency and infallability of scripture, the substitutionary atonement, and other truths. Our confessions are not out of touch if high school students can verbally explain key doctrines I taught from those confessions.
We have a man in his young 20s and a woman in her mid fifties. Both come from prison backgrounds. They are hungry for the Word. What better way to teach them about the faith than take them through our confessions? They are hungry for truth and eat the complicated and uncomplicated stuff right up.
These two attended a synod awareness class I hosted last month. When they saw the difference in the CO vs the FOS, they were offended our denomination would consider removing the language "fully agree with God's Word" and "defend."
Posted in: Living Confessionally in Covenant
John,
What a great illustration about your daughter comprehending deep and essential truths.
We contemplated doing some VBS material. We looked at how it treated sin. It treated sin so lightly as if just by breakign parents' rules you sin. We decided against the material.
We looked and seemingly found material that treats sin for what it is--total depravity. sin is our actions, but we have a sinful condition we are born in. And we felt unless kids understand how deep our misery really is, they cannot know Jesus. We don't want to teach our kids to be good Pharisees by using moralistic and exemplaristic VBS material. We beleive kids can understand quite well Lord's Day 3.
Why wait until high school to treach them these truths? If we put in the effort as parents and sunday school teachers, our children are much more capable than what some might think.
And for those who have difficulty with the CO, I ask why are you part of this denomination? Is it biblical and Christ-like to purposely cause division of this nature? If you can't sign it, then why are you in the CRC? If you can't buy into the organization then go someplace or submit to the organziation. Those who do not believe women should be in office submit to prevoius decisions, can't you do the same?
Posted in: It Doesn't Have to be a Big Thing to be a Big Deal
This article was awesome. I hope this gets in the hands of congregation members. I have talked to many pastors who have had times of weeping because all they hear is criticism. Some pastors go through long spells of no appreciation shown. Unfortuantely, many pators are "expendable" to them--if they don't like somethign, they can be run out of town and treated like garbage.
Here are some stats that Thabiti Anyabwile cites from The Schaeffer Institute in an article he writes called "Don't Make Your Pastor a Statistic." http://www.9marks.org/blog/dont-make-your-pastor-statistic I hope the stats are better for our denomination.
Health and Well-Being
they could, but have no other way of making a living.
Marriage and Family
Church Relationships
Longevity