Roger Gelwicks

Hey Joshua,  Thanks for your short article in regard to the pressure of raising kids.  It's certainly not an easy task.  My mother in law once said, you never know if you've done it right until they are grown up.  Of course, doing our best as parents doesn't insure success.  Many a parent can attest to that.  I think the best a parent can do is not pressuring our kids (to read their Bibles) but to simply set the example for them by our own lives.  That is perhaps hardest for a minister, as he is expected to study the Bible daily in his role of being a minister.  If he doesn't (and it happens) how can it be expected of others to follow his lead or instruction.  Does your wife also study her Bible daily, as an example.  The reality is, that even ministers and their spouses, tire of Bible study at times.  How can we expect any more of our children?  Be patient and enjoy your children at each stage of their lives.  And trust God.

Hear, hear Edwin.  I like your comments that direct us toward the advances and progress that are being made in history.  There may be plenty of evil, but culturally and politically our societies are making progress.  I can’t tell you the name of the project or the authors, but recently a research project pointed out that today there are many less homicides per capita committed than in the past decades or centuries. 

It may not seem it, but if we focus on the negative we will not see or appreciate the good.  Christianity tends to focus on the sin of a society and individuals; we are part of a fallen world.  Sin will only increase until God intervenes.  So it’s a difficult thing to see and appreciate the good that is taking place outside the narrow confines of the church.  Christian theology tends to belittle the good, with many Christians longing for the good old days and belittling the progress being made in the areas of science, technology and cultural growth.  Even Christian evangelism tends to point toward the negative.  The good of the gospel cannot be recognized until the evil is first recognized, especially personally, and confessed.  So there is no good news until the bad is recognized.  Christians are very good at pointing the evil.  And of course, Paul is one of the greatest contributors to this negativity (total depravity).

The progress that you point out, Edwin, can be seen as the slow development of the human race (whether it takes hundreds of years or thousands, or more) It can be attributed to God and his mysterious intervention or to the long and slow process of evolution, also attributed to God.  But Christianity, on the whole, will have a difficult time acknowledging any progress, because to them the world is on its way to hell in a hand basket.

And thank you, Jolanda, for the reminders to be kind and to stay on target.  We love you.

I would think that is wise and good that our mission board has a CMT (Crisis Management Team) to give direction to and make decisions for our missionaries in times of crisis.  It is often difficult to be objective in such times.  And certainly objectivity is necessary.  Within a given crisis situation, one can easily think that God will take care of me.  But the reality is that Christians are no safer than anyone else if they do not take intelligent steps to be safe.  If you think that, then just stop taking a life saving drug that your doctor has prescribed and see where that gets you.  The same applies to the safety of our missionaries in crisis situations.  God has given us wisdom and insight for a reason.  And we should trust the insurances our denomination provides, such as the CMT.  Blessings to our team.

Hi all.  Thanks, John, for pointing out, from Scripture, the bleakness of the human race, and you might as well include the creation that groans along with humanity (according to Paul).  Humanity, culture and all of creation is in one sad state according to Scripture.  And that is so often the way Christians look at culture and humanity, with a negative lense.  And of course the Reformers do it best.  You might think that the Reformed cultural mandate would make a difference, but in reality that mandate is more a separatist movement, Christians separating from the world in order to say we can do it better.  Christian education (grades K - 12) looks at secular education as the playground of the devil.  So thinking they can do better, they build separatist Christian schools.  Is this what you call a Christian cultural mandate?  The Reformers build their separatist colleges and universities (Abraham Kuyper) and when the first ones they build become polluted they separate and build new ones again.  Christians form their own labor unions to separate from secular unions.  Science foundations separate from the secular so they can do true science.  And there are many other areas where Christians look negatively at their surrounding world and shake their finger.  That negative Christian perspective has left its influence on Western culture.  So when Edwin thinks we can see and encourage a sense of growing good in culture Christianity, especially the Reformed side says, you gotta be kidden; what glasses are you wearing?

Now, for your quotes from the Jewish Scriptures, regarding the total corruption of people.  Christianity has nicely piggybacked upon the Jewish religion, changing completely the character of the Jewish faith.  The Jewish experts and scholars from the time of Christ to present have never thought that Christianity has been any kind of culmination or fulfillment of their religion.  That is only the  Christian perception.  Jews have thought that Christians have defiled their own Scriptures by interpreting their Scriptures through the lens of the New Testament.  Now the Mormons believe that they can do the same thing to the Christian faith by rightly interpreting the Christian Bible through the lens of the book of Mormon.  And now Christians, like the Jews did, are crying foul play.  Piggyback upon piggyback.  I’m glad you included the quote from Jesus who includes himself among humanity as not being good, but credits God only as good.  I know you’ll will have something to say about that, but taken in the normal sense as Jesus said these words it supports the idea of Jesus as a insightful teacher, rather than the second person of the Trinity.

Now your final question.  Yes, I do know a fair share about Christianity, as that is my background from childhood on.  But now, I do not claim or follow any formal religion.  As I have said previously in this string of responses, I believe all religions are an attempt to explain the God who reveals himself in creation.  Religions go to great lengths to fill in what they think are the gaps and what God himself has failed to reveal to humankind in creation.  And most religions have an archaic foundation, including Christianity.  I try not to formulate a religion of my own or follow one.  If I did, I would probably be accused of formulating my own religion.  For me, creation is enough to tell me there is an incredible creator God and his preservation of the world is enough to tell me he cares for his world, including humanity (even me).  People come along in history (whether God has sent them, I don’t know) who are insightful and worth listening to.  But I realize that by saying too much, I may be shown to be wrong in the future, so perhaps the less said, the better.

It seems as though, we have a “comment war” between two people, Ed and John.  And I doubt that the two of you will ever reach agreement.  It seems as though you both have different starting points that will not allow your paths to cross in a significant way, or come to the same conclusions.  Ed is asking a “what if” question in his article, and John won’t allow for any “what ifs.”  

I’ll also ask a “what if” question.  What if the Bible is not the inspired word of God, as you both seem to propose.  The opening chapters of Genesis are antiquated in their origin, like many of the other ancient religious writings of ancient history.  They speak of realities that make no sense to the modern mind.  These chapters speak of a pseudo reality that fits an antiquated mentality that didn’t have the benefit of developed thought.  Religions of that time spoke of the gods existing on a different plane (pseudo) but yet who interacted with humanity on earth.  There were good gods and evil gods.  There were national gods and the false gods of other nations.  Not unlike these other ancient religions, Judaism and Christianity have a good God and a demigod, Satan, the archenemy of God.  The Bible records fanciful stories of God’s creation in six literal days, by which each day God brought about another aspect of the then known world.  It tells of God stepping down from his pseudo reality (heaven) and instructing humans (Adam and Eve), but also of the pseudo demigod doing the same in the form of a talking serpent and giving a conflicting message than God’s. The fanciful stories (the creation and fall of Adam and Eve, the tower of Babel, Noah’s arc, Cain and Abel, etc.) abound in the early chapters of the Bible, as well as throughout.  These fanciful stories had been retold over thousands of years before finally being put down in written word.  And now you, John, and many other Christians, want to hang on to these stories as though they are solid fact.

Are scientists today to assume that these fanciful stories of creation should become the bedrock of science and scientific endeavor?  Are psychology and human relationships to be built upon stories of Adam and Eve’s fall and redemption?  These stories are acknowledged as true and reliable by you John (and also I think, you, Edwin) by faith alone.  It is the accepting as true that which does not make, even, common sense.  But for you, the Bible is the God breathed word of God and is absolutely reliable and truthful, unfailing in telling us the realities of life.  

How is the Bible different from the Koran and the book of Mormon or the Hindu writings which also claim to be the true inspired word of God?  They say their own writings are absolutely true and the Bible is a false revelation of God, just as we say the same about them.  We say their stories are fanciful and therefore untrue, but the Bible’s stories are different.  Maybe all formalized religions are a weak attempt to further explain the God that is clearly revealed in his creation of the world.  And each religion puts its own spin on their attempts to reveal God who has already revealed himself in the creation.  I agree with Edwin, that the creation speaks the truth of God.  But I disagree that God needs further help to clarify his reality and his relationship to human kind.

Your original article, Edwin, hits the nail on the head.  Something is going to have to give with Christianity or it will become the ridicule of future generations.  Five hundred years from now, maybe less, Christianity will make little sense, especially seeing as it is based on fanciful stories and miracles, and seeing as science will increasingly make these stories seem very foolish.  I have a feeling that you, Edwin, are afraid to step outside the pale of Christian thought, and you, John, are afraid to move at all from an historic conservative perspective of Christianity which is already losing its credibility in our society. It is, indeed, true that the teachings of the Bible have to be accepted by faith, because it has little or no concrete evidence to back it up.  That being true it doesn’t really matter what God is revealing in his creation or what science is discovering about our world. The Bible (in Christian thought) is the final authority.  Christians today are obviously trying to bend either science or Christian teaching to line up with the other.  But to me the gap is becoming larger and larger.

Edwin, had commented some time ago, about John and I going back and forth, and maybe missing the original point of his article, as Edwin saw it.  As comments passed back and forth, it was obvious that we didn’t see eye to eye on the issue of evolution or creation, and of course that debate spilled over into other areas of theology, which may or may not be related, depending on how you see the implications. Then John brings a Philip Westra perspective and concern into the picture.  What I’m seeing, is that everyone has a box, John, Edwin, Philip, myself and others.  And somehow we all think my own box of correct Biblical interpretation is the only valid one.  Is that really true, that my box (and those that agree with me) is the only true box?

The Bible contains 66 different books or letters, written by a large variety of authors, over a long period of time, involving a variety of cultural settings.  Christians, in general, claim that these 66 books, taken together, make up the inspired (therefor true) word of God.  These various books apparently contain a consistent message that somehow hangs together without contradicting itself, although taken from 66 different books.  If there seems to be contradictions, they are only apparent, and it can be shown how conflicts for the most part can be shown to fit together when the apparent conflicting pieces are seen in light of other Scriptures.  Both John and Edwin have tried to show the consistency of their Biblical understanding.  They have also shown how the viewpoint of the other person is inconsistent with the Bible’s message in light of other Scriptures.  We are each trying to present a better argument to demonstrate that I’m right and you are wrong when it comes to the teaching of the Bible.

Theologians have been doing this same thing from before the time of Augustine and have continued right up into the present.  Just think of the multitude of Christian (at least, they call themselves that) denominations that there are at present.  Each denomination has their master theologians such as Calvin, Zwingli, Luther (the list could get extensive).  There the Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Particular Baptists, Dispensational Evangelicals, Roman Catholics, Mormons (they think of themselves as Christians), Orthodox, Methodists, each with their own seminaries having a host of Phd theologians on staff.  These theologians think that those outside of their own denomination are misinterpreting the Bible (an inconsistent message with contradictions) and their job, in their own seminary, is to do Biblical research to show how they can make a truly consistent (no contradictions) theology.  But none of these groups agree with each other or they would join together as denominations.  These differences are great enough that these denominations and groups separate from the others and have remained separate for years or centuries.  But each group, although having differences from the others, thinks their group is the only with a consistent theology without inconsistencies.

Yet they all claim the Bible is the inspired word of God and contains no contradictions (unless you look across the fence at another denomination). Reformed denominations have defined their basic theology by the three ecumenical creeds and the three forms of unity.  But there are few other denominations that would agree with those confessions, especially, the Canons of Dort.  But these Creeds and Confessions, in the Reformed mind, is what demonstrates the Bible’s consistent and noncontradictory message.  But even within the CRC confessional group there are those who look over the fence and try to wed Arminian theology to a five point Calvinistic theology, making their own box a little different from the denomination’s but showing from Scripture how their own box makes the best sense.

Within a given denomination, say the CRC, there comes a time when they want to ordain women deacons, elders, and ministers.  But the Bible clearly teaches that women are not to have authority over men.  So the CRC theologians get to work to show how maybe it’s time for a change and now when seen correctly, the Bible can teach that both men and women can have authority in the church and hold these positions.  How about a man being the head of his household, once understood differently than today, thanks to the good work of our theologians.  As in other denominations. a homosexual lifestyle will be approved for membership and service in the CRC, thanks to our theologians who will be able to bend Scripture to say what we want and call it a consistent Bible message of God’s love and justice.  I think many are working on that one even now.

All this happens, despite, the Bible’s teaching that the Holy Spirit will lead his church in all truth. So what does this all say about the differences that John, Edwin, Philip, and a hundred others (including myself) have as to what the Bible really teaches?  Does John really have the only truly consistent box, or is it Ed?  I will admit the many inconsistencies of the Bible.  You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise.  In fact they are glaring, such as with the teaching of Jesus and Paul as to salvation.  I think it may be better to make a choice, and I will choose Jesus.  His teaching is so much more reasonable and fits with common logic.  Have a great weekend.

Thanks, John, for your simplistic answer in regard to the differences between denominations.  All those (from different church groups) going to the Baptist church the other evening to hear a speaker with a narrow message condemning evolution, went because of a common premise (that evolution is a religion and is false).  You all were able to set aside your many differences in order to celebrate your common core belief.  But within that group if the topic got changed unexpectedly to the “gifts of the Holy Spirit” or “infant baptism” or God’s plan for Israel at the end of time or what does it mean when Jesus said, “this is my body... and this is my blood...” or can women be ordained as ministers in the church, or to what extent is Jesus fully God, or are children of believers members of the church or what is the continuity between the Old and New Testaments, or how many dispensations (Dispensationalism - dispensations of how God saves people) are there described in the Bible or what is the proper interpretation of the book of Revelation or is baptism necessary for salvation, and the list goes on almost endlessly as to the topics where there would be complete disagreement between those same church groups.

Your premise of sharing a common interest and persuasion as to evolution, is like asking if the same group could get together and enjoy a football game together, or if all football enthusiasts agree and are comfortable in their beliefs as to God.  The fact remains, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to and most of the differences are not minor.  The differences were serious enough to cause church denominations to split and form new denominations.  Or I could ask you, would you feel comfortable leaving the CRC to become a Pentecostal or Roman Catholic?  There’s your answer, John, about the homogeneity of church groups and as to the importance of how the Bible gets interpreted.

The many differences as to Bible interpretation says there are no clear answers in the Bible and that there are inconsistencies and contradictions.  Otherwise, all Christians would be on the same page.  And my attempt to rationalize those differences and smooth them over may be different than your attempt, or the Baptist attempt, or the Pentecostal attempt, or the Roman Catholic attempt.  And the fact that there are so many interpretations says the Bible is not as clear a Revelation as you make it out to be.

As to the meeting the other night, the speaker could shed a lot of light as to why evolution does not make scientific sense.  If speaking to a panel of scientists, could he also show the scientific evidence as to why a young earth with a literal six day creation would make perfect scientific evidence?

John, I’m not sure who you are debating with in some of your later responses, especially the last one, but it doesn’t seem to be Edwin or even myself.  He has said many times, and I agree, that the evolution of the world and life, is theistic.  A theistic evolution sees God’s involvement throughout and doesn’t involve randomness in the least.  Your questions and comments would be like my asking of you, what are the possibilities of someone speaking a word on six consecutive days and a different part of the created world would comes into being.  If evolution is theistic, then randomness or possibilities plays no part, and you have no argument.

Hi John,   But indeed I am a real person.  And it would take very little effort on your part to verify it conclusively, to in fact shake my hand and to talk in person, and to evaluate my DNA.  It would not be so easy to verify Baal’s existence or any of the gods that Israel’s neighbors thought were real, as well as the Jews thought at various times, or even the gods of other present day religions.  And I’m not daring you to step outside of your box (or calling you a scaredy cat, as you suggest).  

But if I were to step into what you call Christian reality (as you suggest), which Christianity should it be, the one claiming the stories of a literal six day creation, God’s appearance to Adam in the garden of Eden, as well as Satan’s as a talking serpent, all of this as factual reality or the Christianity that claims this as fable?  Do I step into a Christian reality that wants me to believe that Adam was the first actual created human being, or that he was more of a mythical character, or that he was the first human being to enter into covenant with God?  Or does it make any difference? . Which Christian reality should I step into, John?  I would guess that like you, the author of Genesis (some say Moses) thought he was describing what he thought might be real and what was handed down to him in story form, as factual reality.  But recognize that all ancient stories of creation were not science based (there was no science) and had little or no connection to reality. But just because Moses thought his story of creation and Adam was real it didn’t make it any more real than the other stories that circulated back then in early and ancient recorded history.  Even Christians would argue for the foolishness of these other stories.  What makes the Christian story of creation any more reliable than the stories of other religions?  They all claim inspiration from God, just as does the Bible.  Why Christianity?

It might be one thing to argue within Christian circles as to what is real and what is not in the opening chapters of Genesis. Within the Christian box, debate makes sense to those debating.  But put the Christian in a different box that debates science and origins, and should this Christian put the story of Biblical creation on the table as his foundation for science he would be thought to be totally unrealistic.  He would probably be asked to leave science to the real scientists. The Christian might even argue that the earth was created with the appearance of age (young earth proponents) to explain away the scientific evidence for an earth that is millions of years old.

Evolution may not be scientific fact, it’s still a theory (like Biblical creation), but it is gaining a lot more credence and support in the scientific fields, where God’s existence is not a factor one way or another.  You can’t say that for Christian science, the Bible is the foundational factor.  But I’m guessing that few scientists (other than Christian) would claim or agree that the world was created in six literal and actual days.  Where does that come from?  Oh yah, the Bible.

John, it sounds to me that you are arguing a straw man of your own making.  You seem to be saying that because evolution, as described by Jonathan Sarfati (or yourself), is impossible (impossible probabilities), therefore theistic evolution is also impossible.  You imply or say evolution directed by God boils down to creationism.  That’s not true.  God can change the numbers that Sarfati suggests to anything God wants in order to make evolution definite.  God can work through natural law (they are God’s laws, after all) in the same way he works to accomplish his purposes for individuals, the church, or the kingdom of God.  Or don’t you think that God works through natural law to accomplish his purposes?  You see, God is not subject to randomness and yet works through natural law.  You say that “evolution requires the undirected, random mutations....”  But theistic evolution is not undirected or random.  Your argument holds no water.

Well John, all I can say is, “my bad.”  I misspoke when I said that there was no science back in early historic days.  We could probably say though, that it (science back then) was very primitive.  In looking up the definition of “science” on the internet, the first definition I came to was, “a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws.”  I don’t know if that is what primitives were doing when they learned that wood floats in water better than rocks, but I think you know what I was getting at when I made my comment about primitives and science.  We have come a long way since the time of the ancients.  I doubt that the ancients’ belief in a pseudo reality in which the gods of that reality interacted with the people on earth had anything to do with science, but rather with superstition.

You went to some length to explain why evolution is a dead end street.  I will agree with you, that there are a lot of kinks to work out of this theory.  I would imagine that evolutionary scientists will say the same.  And it may even take hundreds of years to get it all figured out.  But it still seems to be the best hope and the best direction that today’s scientists want to pursue as to dating the age of the earth and the origins of life.  It seems to have more in favor of it than what can be found against it.  You may disagree with that, but with the comments you have made in this post, as well as other posts, it seems like you present very little to discredit evolution.  Volumes and volumes have been written, and years and years of research have been done to support evolution.  So it is hard for me to agree with your premise.  I don’t claim to be a scientist of any kind so you can fire away at me at will.  My disagreement with you comes at a different level.

But now, what about the science that you support. You are suggesting that on the first day some ten thousand years ago, God said abracadabra, and instantaneously (within a day) there was light.  On another day, God said abracadabra, and instantaneously there were all the sea creatures and birds of the air.  On another day God said, abracadabra, and within that single day all the earth creatures including humans beings were brought into existence in their present forms.  Within a total of six literal days all that exists was magically brought into existence.

Wow, the renown scientists of the world are going to jump on that theory.  That’s not what you could even call science.  Do you really think there are no holes in your theory?  Scientists would have a heyday finding fault, if they would even consider your theory.  You say there is fault with the theory of evolution, but none with your theory?  Come on John.  Listen to yourself.

I’m not sure what you are doing as to your own scientific endeavors.  It sounds like your scientific ambition is to disprove evolution, rather than to prove Biblical creation.  It doesn’t take science to prove or support God saying, “Let the earth produce all the animals of the earth, including human beings,” and it’s done in a single day.  That’s religion, not science and has nothing to do with science.  So should it be any wonder that scientists reject your theory?    

Perhaps this is why, in part, other Christian realities make more sense, such as the Bible’s creation account being myth or fable.  It leaves space for God being the creator God and yet let’s science unravel the “how” of how he did it. And along the way to gain many valuable insights for the good of humanity.   I’m sorry John, you haven’t convinced me yet, and I doubt that you come close to convincing the scientists of today, other than so-called Christian scientists.

Well, once again John, you have responded to another’s response with questions, rather than acknowledging that a God directed or theistic evolution makes sense and still remains true to the theory of evolution.  Most of your objections to evolution are overcome when one realizes that it is God directed.  As an orchestra conductor is able to direct all the variety and number of instrumentalists to make beautiful music, so God can direct the evolutionary process to bring about a wonderful creation without interfering with the evolutionary process.  Undoubtedly, as you point out, an evolutionary process without God would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.  But with God at the helm, all things are possible.  And so the process remains evolution.  As the Bible points out, not a hair can fall from a person’s head apart from God’s will, or is it a sparrow falling to the ground?  All of life happens (according to the Bible) according to God’s purposes, and yet he works through the normal means and laws he created.  So also with a theistic evolution.  And scientists are increasingly unearthing the evolutionary process that God has used.  Maybe with time, the scientists will better understand the process that so far is wrought with problems, but eventually will make better sense.  As least for now, to most scientists, evolution makes the most sense and is the obvious direction to pursue.