It is incredible - in this day and age of ministry some people still don't believe women can do an outstanding job in ordained ministry. Honestly, I strongly believe many women have shown they can do a great job - sometimes better than many our our men in ministry.
[quote=paulvanderklay]
Dawn is a member of a church within a classis that won't seat women. In a comment on a previous posting (and on other forums) she shared that this leads her to the conclusion that classis is a broken structure and should be replaced.
Even though I believe all offices of the CRCNA should be open to women I've got doubts about Dawn's position. Part of this arises from my ideas about how culture and gospel work together in church structure. My experience in other cultural contexts in the US and overseas leads me to believe that church structures need to reflect both the gospel (none do so perfectly) as well as the culture of the community. If the structure is too far out of alignment with the cultural understanding of community the church structure will be unintellible and probably abusive and unproductive. For this reason I am disinclined to advocate for a synodical level effort to force these classes to change their policies. I think the present denominational position is appropriate for where we are at culturally, allowing each classis to determine its own position. Understanding cultural contexts and accomodating cultural needs is more than just recognizing the needs of communities defined by ethnicity or language. Dawn is persistent if she's anything and she has brought me to think about the reality of seeing classis narrowly as a delegated voting body that appears and evaporates two or three times a year. Unlike congregation/council, and denomination/synod, we have one word for classis/classis. I think complementarianism is as much a cultural position as a hermenutical one and if it is pursued any classis that does not recognize women elders or pastors must somehow find a way to embody the principle in the classis in some better way than having women serve the lunch. In 2006 I visited Redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC and had the priviledge of not only meeting with Tim Keller but also with his church staff. Redeemer is part of the PCA which does not permit women to be elders. I spent an day meeting with most of the heads of ministry groups in the church and to my surprise found that most of them were women. If you want to hear Tim and Kathy Keller's position on Women in Office there are recorded talks on the Redeemer website and probably other places on the Internet. Even though I disagree with the Kellers' position on women elders I was pleasantly surprised to see how much positional power, control and responsibility women had in their church. Again, I do not advocate for the PCA position that Redeemer is in compliance with. My sympathies are more with my friends at City Church San Francisco, a church similar to Redeemer (complete with former Redeemer staffers) who left the PCA for the RCA. Yet for those who are working to embody a complementarian ethos it seems to me that something else is needed in classis to bring expression to this position than simply a prohibition. Cultures that I know who can't envision women pastors or elders (if they have elders) at this moment almost all have other positions for women within their cultures of great power and responsibility that afford expression of a complementarian ethos, valuing the gifts, leadership and expression of both sexes. I think classes that wish to try to develop the complementarian ethos should see this as part of the package. Now I write this post with a great deal of hesitation because I don't wish to ignite a Women-in-Church-Office flame war. This debate has been a part of my experience in the CRC for all of my life. We've too often handled this conflict poorly. At the same time I think the topic is worth discussing. Do you believe the existence of CRC classes that don't seat women elders condemns classis as a structure? If so, what should replace it? If you are a complementarian, how should that ethos be reflected in classis? If you have a complementarian classis what concrete steps are you pursuing to give expression to God's gifts given to women?
I still can't believe some CRC males have the archaic mentality that women cannot contribute to the Kingdom in ordained ministry. It's time to wake up!!!
The Apostle Saint Paul is a "man of his time period" a male centered Jewish culture... In a patriarcal society is no surprise that women were oppressed by the males. I our times let's apply the concept that for Christ and God there is neither male nor female... The Grace and Love of God is greater than the silly debate of ordained ministry for our women in the CRC.
I couldn't agree with you more on the issue of "diversity" quotas and ethnic advisors; although, I am aware in the United States the race/ethnic card is always in peoples minds, yes, including the Christians... The "diversity" quotas and ethnic advisors are many times (although with good intentions) insult us as human beings created in God's image. The quota and ethnic cards attempt against the dignity of us as members of different races and ethnic groups in the United States and Canada.
Eric our focus as a Church, the CRC, is to work for the Kingdom of God now and here, where God has placed us, male and female, and, yes, in ordained ministry. Remember God is Spirit and therefore has no sex - gender.
My recommendation - don't be afraid to work with an ordained female elder or minister of the Word and Sacraments... Challenge yourself and learn something for the Kingdom...
The HISTORICAL Jesus of Nazareth was a GOOD JEW and as such was part of the patriarcal society that sorrounded him and he lived in. Jesus was no REVOLUTIONARY - He didn't even conspired against the Roman Empire that had colonized the Jewish people.
God bless the ORDAINED WOMEN in the CRC - they sure demonstrate that GOD uses them for the establishment of the Kingdom. Keep up the good work no matter the opposition from some archaic men in the CRC.
It shows the Apostle's Paul own contradictions... in Corinthians women are NO GOOD in Galatians there is no male or female... if you get it, please explain!!!
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
It is incredible - in this day and age of ministry some people still don't believe women can do an outstanding job in ordained ministry. Honestly, I strongly believe many women have shown they can do a great job - sometimes better than many our our men in ministry.
[quote=paulvanderklay]
Dawn is a member of a church within a classis that won't seat women. In a comment on a previous posting (and on other forums) she shared that this leads her to the conclusion that classis is a broken structure and should be replaced.
Even though I believe all offices of the CRCNA should be open to women I've got doubts about Dawn's position. Part of this arises from my ideas about how culture and gospel work together in church structure. My experience in other cultural contexts in the US and overseas leads me to believe that church structures need to reflect both the gospel (none do so perfectly) as well as the culture of the community. If the structure is too far out of alignment with the cultural understanding of community the church structure will be unintellible and probably abusive and unproductive. For this reason I am disinclined to advocate for a synodical level effort to force these classes to change their policies. I think the present denominational position is appropriate for where we are at culturally, allowing each classis to determine its own position. Understanding cultural contexts and accomodating cultural needs is more than just recognizing the needs of communities defined by ethnicity or language. Dawn is persistent if she's anything and she has brought me to think about the reality of seeing classis narrowly as a delegated voting body that appears and evaporates two or three times a year. Unlike congregation/council, and denomination/synod, we have one word for classis/classis. I think complementarianism is as much a cultural position as a hermenutical one and if it is pursued any classis that does not recognize women elders or pastors must somehow find a way to embody the principle in the classis in some better way than having women serve the lunch. In 2006 I visited Redeemer Presbyterian church in NYC and had the priviledge of not only meeting with Tim Keller but also with his church staff. Redeemer is part of the PCA which does not permit women to be elders. I spent an day meeting with most of the heads of ministry groups in the church and to my surprise found that most of them were women. If you want to hear Tim and Kathy Keller's position on Women in Office there are recorded talks on the Redeemer website and probably other places on the Internet. Even though I disagree with the Kellers' position on women elders I was pleasantly surprised to see how much positional power, control and responsibility women had in their church. Again, I do not advocate for the PCA position that Redeemer is in compliance with. My sympathies are more with my friends at City Church San Francisco, a church similar to Redeemer (complete with former Redeemer staffers) who left the PCA for the RCA. Yet for those who are working to embody a complementarian ethos it seems to me that something else is needed in classis to bring expression to this position than simply a prohibition. Cultures that I know who can't envision women pastors or elders (if they have elders) at this moment almost all have other positions for women within their cultures of great power and responsibility that afford expression of a complementarian ethos, valuing the gifts, leadership and expression of both sexes. I think classes that wish to try to develop the complementarian ethos should see this as part of the package. Now I write this post with a great deal of hesitation because I don't wish to ignite a Women-in-Church-Office flame war. This debate has been a part of my experience in the CRC for all of my life. We've too often handled this conflict poorly. At the same time I think the topic is worth discussing. Do you believe the existence of CRC classes that don't seat women elders condemns classis as a structure? If so, what should replace it? If you are a complementarian, how should that ethos be reflected in classis? If you have a complementarian classis what concrete steps are you pursuing to give expression to God's gifts given to women?
[/quote]
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
I still can't believe some CRC males have the archaic mentality that women cannot contribute to the Kingdom in ordained ministry. It's time to wake up!!!
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
The Apostle Saint Paul is a "man of his time period" a male centered Jewish culture... In a patriarcal society is no surprise that women were oppressed by the males. I our times let's apply the concept that for Christ and God there is neither male nor female... The Grace and Love of God is greater than the silly debate of ordained ministry for our women in the CRC.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Eric,
I couldn't agree with you more on the issue of "diversity" quotas and ethnic advisors; although, I am aware in the United States the race/ethnic card is always in peoples minds, yes, including the Christians... The "diversity" quotas and ethnic advisors are many times (although with good intentions) insult us as human beings created in God's image. The quota and ethnic cards attempt against the dignity of us as members of different races and ethnic groups in the United States and Canada.
Eric our focus as a Church, the CRC, is to work for the Kingdom of God now and here, where God has placed us, male and female, and, yes, in ordained ministry. Remember God is Spirit and therefore has no sex - gender.
My recommendation - don't be afraid to work with an ordained female elder or minister of the Word and Sacraments... Challenge yourself and learn something for the Kingdom...
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Doug,
The HISTORICAL Jesus of Nazareth was a GOOD JEW and as such was part of the patriarcal society that sorrounded him and he lived in. Jesus was no REVOLUTIONARY - He didn't even conspired against the Roman Empire that had colonized the Jewish people.
God bless the ORDAINED WOMEN in the CRC - they sure demonstrate that GOD uses them for the establishment of the Kingdom. Keep up the good work no matter the opposition from some archaic men in the CRC.
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
Aaron,
It shows the Apostle's Paul own contradictions... in Corinthians women are NO GOOD in Galatians there is no male or female... if you get it, please explain!!!
God bless the ordained women in the CRC!!!
Posted in: Classes that Won't Seat Women
The HISTORICAL Jesus was a good Jewish man. He came not to break the Jewish law...
The Christ was REVOLUTIONARY because he resurrected and gave us, male and female, SALVATION.
God bless the ordained women in the CRC!!!