Tom Van Engen

Your analogy is amusing and useful, but what if your friend was asked to be married to this guy instead of just a date, and she replied, "No, but we can be friends."  I was a delegate to Synod both in 2009 and in 2012, and while still only an analogy mine is closer than yours in my opinion.  Synod of 2012 isn't wondering what to think, we decided the Belhar is not up to recognized standards of a "Confession" even though they put it in the name even though it can and should inform our faith and ecumenical life as a church.  We certainly accepted the offer of a relationship, but not necessarily the one that was offered.  To stretch your analogy, your friend didn't need to date the guy if she didn't want to but she certainly shouldn't marry him.

While I agree with most of what you say in this fine article, I still choke a bit on the phrase "undocumented immigrant".  A quick check found an interesting passage in Exodus12:43-50.  Especially v. 48 make clear all must obey regulations and 49 directly concludes, "The same law applies to the native-born abnd to the alien living among you."  Romans 13: 1-7 is very clear believers are to obey the government and the government under God's authority has the power of punishing wrongdoers.  I'm all for welcoming everyone into our congregations, but what about obedience to God's authority.  I will gladly forgive any and all who are sorry and want to change, but does that take away accountability to obey God and obey the law?  To become 'documented'?  I hope we can lovingly sort out this 'clash' Scott H. refers to and truly live out the gospel of Christ.  We're trying to improve attitudes and reach out in the love of God, but it isn't easy.

Very interesting discussion.  Eric V.'s comments on the military titles suggests a weakness in the CP title for people who have served in the military.  I believe the primary underlying issue is how do we decide who does what in the service to our Lord in his body.  Connected to that is who decides and why.  Apparently there have been many who looked down on MA's for some reason or reasons, and I suspect the name change won't change that much if any.  I respect and honor the CP's I know, they are apparently very effective at a role I am probably not cut out for, that of planting churches.  Reading the report in the Agenda for Synod I was genuinely surprised to find MA's (back then) felt looked down on and believed something should be done about it.  We have other distinctions and differences that cause people to look down on each other or others.  (I know, you're probably shocked and appalled at that.)

Having read the Agenda I wasn't shocked to hear a MA (before the vote) tell of feeling looked down on in the debate on the floor of Synod 2012.  What did surprise me was David's apparently derogatory comments about 'recognized problems with Article 7'.  I admit some defensiveness on that point, but when I asked where I could go to find out what they are I was even more surprised at David's reply.  Essentially he said (correct me if I'm wrong) the problem with Article 7 is that people in seminary wonder why they are there if people can serve God in a way they are training to do without the training they are getting.  I've been thinking about that, does this mean they only go to seminary because they have to serve the Lord as a pastor?  Do they think some (like me) are only looking for an easier way to become a pastor?  Do they think many years of self teaching and training (over 27 for me) is somehow easier than seminary?  These should be included in the data Duane K encourages us to get somehow.

I have heard the comments like the MA's were apparently hearing, that I 'cheated' or 'took a shortcut', some look down on me like some look down on MA's and sometimes it bothers me a bit or for a little while.  Usually I get over it by remembering it was the Lord who called me to serve his body and He makes it work.  Most days it doesn't bother me a bit that some think my 'Rev.' is somehow spelled differently, I just continue and sometime try to increase my service to my Lord God.  I was serving him in other roles as he called and gave opportunity.  I hope and pray CP will help people stop looking down on some of the Lords servants, and if there is a better name or better way to get that done I hope we find it and stick to the business of serving God and building his kingdom.  Titles will never get that done, faithful servants and disciples probably will.  Tom