I would dare say there is high likelihood that those who make a pastor's life miserable are not alone; very possible their parent(s) and even grand parent(s) demonstrated a similar pattern in the history of the church. If this is the case, the congregation should own this and deal with it. Many years ago I consulted with a congregation that exposed this pattern. They knew this but felt helpless in dealing with this individual, who also did all what it took to railroad the consultancy process. My advice was simple & direct; deal with this sore and if you don't as a church you will never become what the rest would hope for. My time with the church seemed unfruitful as we never accomplished what we set out to do. It was a decade plus later that I bumped into a congregation member at Synod who sought me out to share that the church finally dealt with that sore. This small church finally got the guts to show this man the door; a really tough thing to do (or is it?). The report was the church had drastically changed for the better and they atribulted the consultancy process to reveal and help them see that. Go figure!!!
On a possible similar note, I believe that the "thorn in the flesh" that Paul speaks about is this very dynamic that Visser blogs about. Consider it!!!!!
This article touches on something I heard recently. John MacArthur (Masters Seminary) made this statement. "There are two large global movements currently in place. One is the Charismatic and the other is Reformed." I wonder why we seem to be in wane here in N.America and yet globally we see a growing influence of Reformed minded. Any thoughts on this obserevation?
I have never been a fan of comparative religious studies or conversations; be it the liberal version that tries to share common ground or the fconservative versions that tend to be polemic. I always felt this is dangerous territory for the average Christian to tread and rather unecessary. I wish to highlight the relational aspect that can be distilled from this 12 step program, Just a joke; along the way.
Speaking as one who grew up with his window facing the mosque and the "call to worship" my morning rooster and a neighborhood to this day mostly Muslim; I was visting it several decades later. I saw a man sitting on the ground in the front of the mosque. You could spit across the street into my room. I told him I grew up across at that home. This old man lept up to his feet and asked me who Dr. Devaputra was. I answered "he was my grand-father." He bowed down (imagine an older man) and thanked ME for what my grand-father did for myriads of Muslim students; since he was an educator. In fact, he was the first Christian to obtain a PhD (in our city) and that would have been in the late 1920's. This old man spoke how my grand-dad would tutor the local children; and he was one of them. He refused to let me go!!!!!
I think most Christians GET that ultimately it is relational and contributing your own gifts and talents to others; whoever they might be.
This relational aspect needs to be expounded further. The family home; bought in 1949 was a former British Bungalow. India gained independence in 1947. We finally sold it in 1991 to a Muslim family and my spinster aunt moved in to "Husaainabad" a Muslim condo a few blocks away. Our home was sold to Mr. Khan. on the condition that he would not demolize it. Every other Bungalow in our neigborhood had been bought up and high-rise condos were built; the land being more valuable than the Bungalows themselves. Our home still stands to this day; Mr Khan kept his promise; even though he (and actually my aunt initially) could have made a lot more money. Each family invites and attends important events in our lives.
My point. We need to define relational; it involves being a genuine neighbor, doing proper business transtactions, sharing what we have with those who do not, engaging in social ativities, etc. This issue of love & fear (a rather western constract) needs to be translated into real relational terms. Will someone sell or buy a house from a Muslim here in N. America? (I have a rather different version about Islam -as a system- and its desire for world dominion; without a cross; but not in this discource). It gets down to getting dirt under our finger nails; so to speak ; in our own neigborhoods.
One of my favorite shows is "Little Mosque" on the PIVOT Channel. Great funny comedy of interactiins between Muslims & Christians in Canada. Brilliant show.
It was, I beleive, Bishop Newbigin who pointed out to me that when we examine the gospel writingss; all "so called gospel presentations" are actually responses made to questions FIRST asked. Jose puts his finger on sometgng crucial at the end. That to me, is the key approach.
It is our genuine & authentic relations with Muslims in all other areas of life (not a narrowed focus on just the spiritual or figuring whose God is right, etc) that the HS works so they can ask questions of us. Without the first, the second may not take place.Then only do we have some reason to share "spritually." Moreover, it might mean some Muslims would have to remain anonymous.
Let me illustrate. In a rather wealthy neighborhood, I was approached by a family stating some in the neighborhood were alarmed that a Muslim doctor had painted his house in rather bright colors. I took a walk to see the place and she was right. It did stand out from the rest. She asked for my advice. Rather than give it here; maybe this can be a case-study for thoughtful people to interact over how they would handle it.
OK the distinction I am making is moving away from apolegetics ( using your term now) to being relational & what it means to be a neighbor. The House example. have experienced aploegtics as mere conversations amongst Christians themselves and not that engaging in the real world. However, being a good neighbor (with all its complexities) in the REAL world does allow for greater interaction amongst people of various faiths. That's all.
Posted in: Enough is Enough
I would dare say there is high likelihood that those who make a pastor's life miserable are not alone; very possible their parent(s) and even grand parent(s) demonstrated a similar pattern in the history of the church. If this is the case, the congregation should own this and deal with it. Many years ago I consulted with a congregation that exposed this pattern. They knew this but felt helpless in dealing with this individual, who also did all what it took to railroad the consultancy process. My advice was simple & direct; deal with this sore and if you don't as a church you will never become what the rest would hope for. My time with the church seemed unfruitful as we never accomplished what we set out to do. It was a decade plus later that I bumped into a congregation member at Synod who sought me out to share that the church finally dealt with that sore. This small church finally got the guts to show this man the door; a really tough thing to do (or is it?). The report was the church had drastically changed for the better and they atribulted the consultancy process to reveal and help them see that. Go figure!!!
On a possible similar note, I believe that the "thorn in the flesh" that Paul speaks about is this very dynamic that Visser blogs about. Consider it!!!!!
Posted in: Supply Management
This article touches on something I heard recently. John MacArthur (Masters Seminary) made this statement. "There are two large global movements currently in place. One is the Charismatic and the other is Reformed." I wonder why we seem to be in wane here in N.America and yet globally we see a growing influence of Reformed minded. Any thoughts on this obserevation?
Posted in: 12 Reasons to Love (and not Fear) Muslims
I have never been a fan of comparative religious studies or conversations; be it the liberal version that tries to share common ground or the fconservative versions that tend to be polemic. I always felt this is dangerous territory for the average Christian to tread and rather unecessary. I wish to highlight the relational aspect that can be distilled from this 12 step program, Just a joke; along the way.
Speaking as one who grew up with his window facing the mosque and the "call to worship" my morning rooster and a neighborhood to this day mostly Muslim; I was visting it several decades later. I saw a man sitting on the ground in the front of the mosque. You could spit across the street into my room. I told him I grew up across at that home. This old man lept up to his feet and asked me who Dr. Devaputra was. I answered "he was my grand-father." He bowed down (imagine an older man) and thanked ME for what my grand-father did for myriads of Muslim students; since he was an educator. In fact, he was the first Christian to obtain a PhD (in our city) and that would have been in the late 1920's. This old man spoke how my grand-dad would tutor the local children; and he was one of them. He refused to let me go!!!!!
I think most Christians GET that ultimately it is relational and contributing your own gifts and talents to others; whoever they might be.
Posted in: 12 Reasons to Love (and not Fear) Muslims
Greg:
This relational aspect needs to be expounded further. The family home; bought in 1949 was a former British Bungalow. India gained independence in 1947. We finally sold it in 1991 to a Muslim family and my spinster aunt moved in to "Husaainabad" a Muslim condo a few blocks away. Our home was sold to Mr. Khan. on the condition that he would not demolize it. Every other Bungalow in our neigborhood had been bought up and high-rise condos were built; the land being more valuable than the Bungalows themselves. Our home still stands to this day; Mr Khan kept his promise; even though he (and actually my aunt initially) could have made a lot more money. Each family invites and attends important events in our lives.
My point. We need to define relational; it involves being a genuine neighbor, doing proper business transtactions, sharing what we have with those who do not, engaging in social ativities, etc. This issue of love & fear (a rather western constract) needs to be translated into real relational terms. Will someone sell or buy a house from a Muslim here in N. America? (I have a rather different version about Islam -as a system- and its desire for world dominion; without a cross; but not in this discource). It gets down to getting dirt under our finger nails; so to speak ; in our own neigborhoods.
One of my favorite shows is "Little Mosque" on the PIVOT Channel. Great funny comedy of interactiins between Muslims & Christians in Canada. Brilliant show.
Just sharing....
Posted in: 12 Reasons to Love (and not Fear) Muslims
It was, I beleive, Bishop Newbigin who pointed out to me that when we examine the gospel writingss; all "so called gospel presentations" are actually responses made to questions FIRST asked. Jose puts his finger on sometgng crucial at the end. That to me, is the key approach.
It is our genuine & authentic relations with Muslims in all other areas of life (not a narrowed focus on just the spiritual or figuring whose God is right, etc) that the HS works so they can ask questions of us. Without the first, the second may not take place.Then only do we have some reason to share "spritually." Moreover, it might mean some Muslims would have to remain anonymous.
Let me illustrate. In a rather wealthy neighborhood, I was approached by a family stating some in the neighborhood were alarmed that a Muslim doctor had painted his house in rather bright colors. I took a walk to see the place and she was right. It did stand out from the rest. She asked for my advice. Rather than give it here; maybe this can be a case-study for thoughtful people to interact over how they would handle it.
Just saying....
Posted in: 12 Reasons to Love (and not Fear) Muslims
OK the distinction I am making is moving away from apolegetics ( using your term now) to being relational & what it means to be a neighbor. The House example. have experienced aploegtics as mere conversations amongst Christians themselves and not that engaging in the real world. However, being a good neighbor (with all its complexities) in the REAL world does allow for greater interaction amongst people of various faiths. That's all.