No hard feelings, Tim. :) It probably doesn't make much difference either way.
If Synod was truly worried about Google hits and search engine algorithms, perhaps heresy hunting and all the publicity that went with it was not a good strategy for keeping the issue under the carpet. It is also somewhat odd that the Network runs this article and then expresses concern over internet searches that will raise the visibility of objectionable material. Do Network staff suppose that this article and the "cloak and dagger" approach will not spur a multitude of internet searches?
Expose evil to the light and it will be made plain. There are no real secrets anyway - the church just looks silly for playing coy.
In context, my reference to "the issue" was to the pastor, his church and his writings. That is clearly being kept under the carpet, so to speak. Yet, the action of synod can only serve to increase their visibility. That's the point. It's silly to refer continually to one public individual, public organization, and public situation while dancing around who is being spoken about, particularly in the internet age. It is specifically the teachings of this individual that sparked the action taken by synod, and as such those public teachings should be subject to scrutiny by lay persons within the church. This pastor is a drop in the bucket of erroneous teaching and wickedness on the internet. Allowing people to freely seek out and critique his writings will expose them for their error, not make them more acceptable. People looking for this information to be believed find it readily already - this matter is for bit players. The fact that there is reason to believe that more beyond this pastor and this church might be inclined to some of this error is all the more reason to shine light on his teachings - and his teachings are, as always, a mixture of truth and error. Shielding people from those writings will not sharpen their discernment. Your attempted parallel regarding a pastor using an illustration in a sermon is apples and oranges. It's not about the "who". It's about the "what" that the who was teaching. Besides, unless they seek permission, it is unethical for pastors to single out and name people to use as sermon illustrations.
Consider this: What you are saying is that it is good for the church to point out heresy, but not heretical teachers ( or not *this* heretical teacher, as is the case). How exactly does this square with passages such as Matt. 7:15 and 1 Tim. 1:20? Synod declared kinism to be a heresy. Until recently a pastor in our denomination was teaching heresy. To not warn the church of the heretic who is likely speaking in familiar language given his background is to fail to properly warn the church and equip her to avoid false teaching. Question: What other heretics has the church ever withheld identity of? Does that fit the pattern of the historic apostolic church to withhold such information from her members?
What advice would you give to her? Whenever possible, depersonalize the conflict. This involves being willing to not take things personally and also being willing to not assign impure motives or otherwise impugn those with differing thoughts.
What might you say about the opportunities that come alongside the dangers that come with conflict? Perhaps the greatest opportunity is to model both repentance and forgiveness in times of conflict. This may involve repenting of words or actions said or done in the heat of conflict that were not loving. This may involve forgiving others for the same and being willing to move on without revisiting that grievance or gossiping about it to others. Elders must be willing and able to model repentance and forgiveness if they expect that the congregation under their care will do likewise.
What might you say about how people who disagree should communicate with and about one another? I would emphasize that we should talk very much *to* each other and very little *about* each other. When we do talk about each other to others, our language should be upbuilding, lest we model destructive and gossipy behavior for our congregation to follow. Our communication to each other can certainly be passionate, but must also be loving.
What might you say about the values that lie behind the positions that people take, and how those values might be brought to light? I think it best to bore down to the biblical principles at stake. If there are no biblical principles at stake, then both parties probably need to exercise increased humility and flexibility regarding a decision perhaps on carpet color or the like. If there are biblical principles at stake, those principles can be identified and parsed together, which often will expose both virtuous and superficial values.
What might you say about the stories and experiences that bring people to their values, and how those stories might be brought to light? Digging beyond the surface by allowing and encouraging open discussion will tend to unearth the “why” behind certain passionate positions. In our small and tight-knit communities, family histories, loyalties, and identities can often play significant role in our life stories that shape our values. Stories can be important, but ought not rule the day when biblical principles are at stake.
And what might you say about where Jesus is to be found when people disagree and then collide with one another? Jesus is found whenever we exemplify his attributes in the midst of controversy. Jesus is found in the kind and gentle word. Jesus is found in forgiveness. Jesus is found in grace extended to others. Jesus is found in healing. Jesus is found in obedience to God’s Word. Jesus is found in recognizing that we are his Body. Jesus is found it the eye saying to the hand "I need you".
Is this forum a synodical conversation or classis? Exposing his teaching does not further it, but allows it to be seen for what it is. Hiding it allows it to fester moreso that if it is exposed.
My comment naming what I believe to be this pastor and his church and pointing to his teachings should not be removed from this forum, as it does not violate any of the community guidelines. Those who want to know who the pastor is can follow the links in the comment stream at the Banner article on this action: https://www.thebanner.org/news/2019/06/synod-declares-kinism-a-heresy
Perhaps you are following along with Synod, but two things of note per The Banner:
1. "Only 2 speakers - one for, one against. #crcsynod voted - and the motion carried. Synod 2019 did NOT accede to overture 8. Synod 2012's assertions on climate change stands."
2. "The key consideration is to fully answer: “What is an ecclesiastical matter and what is the rationale for determining it?", re: Church Order article 28 #crcsynod" "Now #crcsynod discussing about the Adv Comm's recommendation to instruct the Council of Delegates to clarify "ecclesiastical matters"." "#crcsynod votes YES to adopt the Adv Comm motion, instructing the COD to research & define rationale for making those decisions in dealing with political/justice matters, & report back to synod 2020."
I wasn't reading too much into it beyond passing on what was reported, but I do agree with you that when things get compressed, time for serious engagement evaporates. Synod can be a bugger that way. I do think that part of the reason that this particular advisory committee may have been late to report was the complexity of the multiple issues assigned to them. Whatever the reason, I think we all desire robust consideration. It's kind of like the last agenda item of a long Consistory meeting - some things tend to get short shrifted. Be well, Tom.
Wonderful offering, Steve. Your daughter sounds like an absolute joy. You do well to challenge us to continually make room, particularly room in our hearts and lives, not just spaces. May God grant us all the wisdom, softness of heart, and the desire to pursue such relationships. Thank you for encouraging us to do so.
Thank you, Sarah Joy, for your beautiful testimony! You are indeed a blessing and a Joy! How wonderful that God would use you to speak such powerful words. May God continue to bless you as you also continue to bless those around you.
I think, as Doug points out regularly, we have already drawn the line in CO Article 28. Would that our words of covenant would mean something to us. Now, to be sure, there will be differences of opinion on what all constitutes an "ecclesiastical" matter, and I think that won't always be 100% clear. But a good starting point would be recognize and honor both the spirit and the letter of this article of church order. If opining on the vagaries of the climate, middle-east political strife, the intricacies of immigration policy, and the like are said to be ecclesiastical matters, then essentially the word carries no real meaning. If everything is ecclesiastical, then in essence nothing is ecclesiastical, for the category becomes all-inclusive and worthless. We ought better to say what we mean and mean what we say, lest we reveal ourselves to be double minded, of which the Scriptures do not speak highly.
Nick, the intent and effect of CO Article 28 goes well beyond the idea of keeping the church from "drafting legislation".
"It is my experience that the politics of CRC members is shaped more by partisan positions than Bible principles." Well, it is my experience that the politics of denominational leaders and certain CRC agencies of significant influence are shaped more by partisan positions than Bible principles. And one could perhaps make the same accusation about you. So where does that leave us?
"Unless the denomination equips its laity for citizenship that honours God, our members will be fed by Fox News or the New York Times." Poppycock! The "denomination" need serve no such role. That is the role of the local church. Neither synod nor the denominational apparatus are formed in order to take over the role of the local church. The local church shepherds and equips the flock, and frankly synod and the denominational apparatus are not particularly gifted or effective at doing what you say they need to be doing. The "denomination" has no special line of wisdom with which to guide the rubes in the pews on "how Christians should vote". The Bible certainly is central to all of how we as Christians must live out our lives, but if you think that the "denomination" through its hired personnel or synodical assemblies have some inside track on *the* right way in which to apply the Bible in all the complexities of modern political, economic, and social life, then you have deceived yourself.
Posted in: Five Things to Know About Kinism
No hard feelings, Tim. :) It probably doesn't make much difference either way.
If Synod was truly worried about Google hits and search engine algorithms, perhaps heresy hunting and all the publicity that went with it was not a good strategy for keeping the issue under the carpet. It is also somewhat odd that the Network runs this article and then expresses concern over internet searches that will raise the visibility of objectionable material. Do Network staff suppose that this article and the "cloak and dagger" approach will not spur a multitude of internet searches?
Expose evil to the light and it will be made plain. There are no real secrets anyway - the church just looks silly for playing coy.
Posted in: Five Things to Know About Kinism
Hi Tim,
In context, my reference to "the issue" was to the pastor, his church and his writings. That is clearly being kept under the carpet, so to speak. Yet, the action of synod can only serve to increase their visibility. That's the point. It's silly to refer continually to one public individual, public organization, and public situation while dancing around who is being spoken about, particularly in the internet age. It is specifically the teachings of this individual that sparked the action taken by synod, and as such those public teachings should be subject to scrutiny by lay persons within the church. This pastor is a drop in the bucket of erroneous teaching and wickedness on the internet. Allowing people to freely seek out and critique his writings will expose them for their error, not make them more acceptable. People looking for this information to be believed find it readily already - this matter is for bit players. The fact that there is reason to believe that more beyond this pastor and this church might be inclined to some of this error is all the more reason to shine light on his teachings - and his teachings are, as always, a mixture of truth and error. Shielding people from those writings will not sharpen their discernment. Your attempted parallel regarding a pastor using an illustration in a sermon is apples and oranges. It's not about the "who". It's about the "what" that the who was teaching. Besides, unless they seek permission, it is unethical for pastors to single out and name people to use as sermon illustrations.
Consider this: What you are saying is that it is good for the church to point out heresy, but not heretical teachers ( or not *this* heretical teacher, as is the case). How exactly does this square with passages such as Matt. 7:15 and 1 Tim. 1:20? Synod declared kinism to be a heresy. Until recently a pastor in our denomination was teaching heresy. To not warn the church of the heretic who is likely speaking in familiar language given his background is to fail to properly warn the church and equip her to avoid false teaching. Question: What other heretics has the church ever withheld identity of? Does that fit the pattern of the historic apostolic church to withhold such information from her members?
Posted in: Five Things to Know About Kinism
Thanks for interacting, Tim. I pray for God's rich blessing on you.
Posted in: Elders and Conflict
Hi David,
A few initial thoughts:
What advice would you give to her? Whenever possible, depersonalize the conflict. This involves being willing to not take things personally and also being willing to not assign impure motives or otherwise impugn those with differing thoughts.
What might you say about the opportunities that come alongside the dangers that come with conflict? Perhaps the greatest opportunity is to model both repentance and forgiveness in times of conflict. This may involve repenting of words or actions said or done in the heat of conflict that were not loving. This may involve forgiving others for the same and being willing to move on without revisiting that grievance or gossiping about it to others. Elders must be willing and able to model repentance and forgiveness if they expect that the congregation under their care will do likewise.
What might you say about how people who disagree should communicate with and about one another? I would emphasize that we should talk very much *to* each other and very little *about* each other. When we do talk about each other to others, our language should be upbuilding, lest we model destructive and gossipy behavior for our congregation to follow. Our communication to each other can certainly be passionate, but must also be loving.
What might you say about the values that lie behind the positions that people take, and how those values might be brought to light? I think it best to bore down to the biblical principles at stake. If there are no biblical principles at stake, then both parties probably need to exercise increased humility and flexibility regarding a decision perhaps on carpet color or the like. If there are biblical principles at stake, those principles can be identified and parsed together, which often will expose both virtuous and superficial values.
What might you say about the stories and experiences that bring people to their values, and how those stories might be brought to light? Digging beyond the surface by allowing and encouraging open discussion will tend to unearth the “why” behind certain passionate positions. In our small and tight-knit communities, family histories, loyalties, and identities can often play significant role in our life stories that shape our values. Stories can be important, but ought not rule the day when biblical principles are at stake.
And what might you say about where Jesus is to be found when people disagree and then collide with one another? Jesus is found whenever we exemplify his attributes in the midst of controversy. Jesus is found in the kind and gentle word. Jesus is found in forgiveness. Jesus is found in grace extended to others. Jesus is found in healing. Jesus is found in obedience to God’s Word. Jesus is found in recognizing that we are his Body. Jesus is found it the eye saying to the hand "I need you".
Posted in: Five Things to Know About Kinism
Is this forum a synodical conversation or classis? Exposing his teaching does not further it, but allows it to be seen for what it is. Hiding it allows it to fester moreso that if it is exposed.
My comment naming what I believe to be this pastor and his church and pointing to his teachings should not be removed from this forum, as it does not violate any of the community guidelines. Those who want to know who the pastor is can follow the links in the comment stream at the Banner article on this action: https://www.thebanner.org/news/2019/06/synod-declares-kinism-a-heresy
Posted in: Any Current or Past Elders?
Hi
Posted in: Communication Regarding Overture 8 to Synod 2019
Doug,
Perhaps you are following along with Synod, but two things of note per The Banner:
1. "Only 2 speakers - one for, one against. #crcsynod voted - and the motion carried. Synod 2019 did NOT accede to overture 8. Synod 2012's assertions on climate change stands."
2. "The key consideration is to fully answer: “What is an ecclesiastical matter and what is the rationale for determining it?", re: Church Order article 28 #crcsynod" "Now #crcsynod discussing about the Adv Comm's recommendation to instruct the Council of Delegates to clarify "ecclesiastical matters"." "#crcsynod votes YES to adopt the Adv Comm motion, instructing the COD to research & define rationale for making those decisions in dealing with political/justice matters, & report back to synod 2020."
Posted in: Communication Regarding Overture 8 to Synod 2019
Hi Tom,
I wasn't reading too much into it beyond passing on what was reported, but I do agree with you that when things get compressed, time for serious engagement evaporates. Synod can be a bugger that way. I do think that part of the reason that this particular advisory committee may have been late to report was the complexity of the multiple issues assigned to them. Whatever the reason, I think we all desire robust consideration. It's kind of like the last agenda item of a long Consistory meeting - some things tend to get short shrifted. Be well, Tom.
Posted in: Accommodations of the Heart Matter More
Wonderful offering, Steve. Your daughter sounds like an absolute joy. You do well to challenge us to continually make room, particularly room in our hearts and lives, not just spaces. May God grant us all the wisdom, softness of heart, and the desire to pursue such relationships. Thank you for encouraging us to do so.
Posted in: Life, Life, and More Life
Thank you, Sarah Joy, for your beautiful testimony! You are indeed a blessing and a Joy! How wonderful that God would use you to speak such powerful words. May God continue to bless you as you also continue to bless those around you.
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Hi Jason,
I think, as Doug points out regularly, we have already drawn the line in CO Article 28. Would that our words of covenant would mean something to us. Now, to be sure, there will be differences of opinion on what all constitutes an "ecclesiastical" matter, and I think that won't always be 100% clear. But a good starting point would be recognize and honor both the spirit and the letter of this article of church order. If opining on the vagaries of the climate, middle-east political strife, the intricacies of immigration policy, and the like are said to be ecclesiastical matters, then essentially the word carries no real meaning. If everything is ecclesiastical, then in essence nothing is ecclesiastical, for the category becomes all-inclusive and worthless. We ought better to say what we mean and mean what we say, lest we reveal ourselves to be double minded, of which the Scriptures do not speak highly.
Posted in: ‘Palestine’ and Overture 6: Ten Questions to Consider
Nick, the intent and effect of CO Article 28 goes well beyond the idea of keeping the church from "drafting legislation".
"It is my experience that the politics of CRC members is shaped more by partisan positions than Bible principles." Well, it is my experience that the politics of denominational leaders and certain CRC agencies of significant influence are shaped more by partisan positions than Bible principles. And one could perhaps make the same accusation about you. So where does that leave us?
"Unless the denomination equips its laity for citizenship that honours God, our members will be fed by Fox News or the New York Times." Poppycock! The "denomination" need serve no such role. That is the role of the local church. Neither synod nor the denominational apparatus are formed in order to take over the role of the local church. The local church shepherds and equips the flock, and frankly synod and the denominational apparatus are not particularly gifted or effective at doing what you say they need to be doing. The "denomination" has no special line of wisdom with which to guide the rubes in the pews on "how Christians should vote". The Bible certainly is central to all of how we as Christians must live out our lives, but if you think that the "denomination" through its hired personnel or synodical assemblies have some inside track on *the* right way in which to apply the Bible in all the complexities of modern political, economic, and social life, then you have deceived yourself.