Thank-you for getting back to me. May I remind you of a few things. This happened between a pastor and a married women who was not his wife, at a church sanctioned function. This is not the first time this pastor has done this. This is for sure the second time and he has received mandatory counseling as well for this type of behavior. The perpetrator does not get to tell the victim how their actions may or may not affect them. Do you understand that this situation can potentially have devastating effects on an individual and cause them to leave the church and never want anything to do with God or his Kingdom?
Roger, if this pastors's actions prevented even one person from entering the Kingdom of God isn't that grounds enough for them to be removed from office?
If the pastor was truly repentant there are ways in which he could return to being a pastor.
Article 11 of our church order states "The calling of a minister of the Word is to proclaim, explain, and apply Holy Scripture in order to gather in and equip the members so that the church of Jesus Christ may be built up." Sometimes we use terms like "Kingdom building"
So if a pastor is to be a kingdom builder and one who is part of God's team, how then can anyone in our church leadership support anyone who is a kingdom destroyer? These are two opposing forces! This wasn't a "one off" there is a pattern here. When the shepherd is the wolf, the sheep are in serious trouble!
Just because the elders decided not to do anything about this situation doesn't make it right. In fact it makes me seriously question our leadership and where their loyalties lie. Maybe it's time our denomination set up an inquiry to look into these sorts of things? Sadly I am sure this isn't the only time things were swept under the carpet.
For me it is mind boggling that you can say things like" it was just a pinch"! In fact it wasn't just a pinch it was also the words that were said to this women and it's the previous actions that were serious enough to put him in mandatory counseling. It's not an isolated pinch. It's a sum of actions that this pastor has done to prove that he should not hold the office of minister of the Word.
I'm not sure if you misread the story. You keep implying that he was found not guilty but the story says "I was contacted several weeks later and informed that the committee recommended a two year suspension of his ministerial credentials." He was found guilty by the committee, the fact that his punishment was never carried out is what is disheartening to say the very least.
Unless you were on the committee that made the recommendation or at the meeting of the elders that should have enforced the recommendation, you don't get to change the narrative of someone else's story! Period! You don't get to make assumptions about someone else's story. I don't know which planet in God's universe where it would have been acceptable for this pastor to do what he did! Especially since this was not his first offense! Frankly I find your defense of this pastor's actions pretty upsetting. It appears no amount of reasoning with you is going to change that. So for me, you have proven that the moral of this story is true! and that is, that certain pastors will defend other certain pastors actions and try to discredit or re-write the story of anyone who brings forth allegations of sexual misconduct. Thank-you for proving to me we live in a fallen world, and thank God for Safe church!
Thank-you safe church for providing a venue where stories of hurt can be shared in a safe environment. I also hope this can be a place of learning. Learning how to empathize with a hurting individual, learning how to "hear" someone's story, without adding or subtracting to it. Learning appropriate responses. I believe that most who have received any healing from their hurt know all to well that yes there is power, incredible power in the precious blood of the Lamb. I know i do.
As a male and an uneducated "lay" person I rightly or wrongly look to our denomination for leadership on a variety of topics. That includes pastors, elders and deacons on a local level. I am married and have 5 children. 2 boys and 3 girls. In light of this account and your understanding of it, and you as a pastor or leader in our denomination. I am wondering if you are able to help me answer some questions I have, as I counsel my children in light of this story.
I'll start with my boys. As I'm hearing it from you it seems okay for a male to pinch the bottom of a female as long as it's done in the context of being a "joke". From reading this story I'm not concluding that she thought it was a joke and no where in the story does it say that they had joked in this manner previously so I guess my questions are as follow;
If one of my sons wants to pinch a girls bottom should the comment that goes with it not be said out loud? That way everyone will know it was intended as a joke? If it's whispered as it was, anyone who observed the pinch may not understand that it was intended as a joke? Or do you make sure you do the pinch when no one is watching? That way you don't need to explain things to people who may not understand? Clearly from this story the female didn't understand that it was intended as a joke, so should he have immediately explained to her he was joking? That may have cleared up any confusion? Also wondering if you are allowed to do this as a married male? The story doesn't say if he was single or married? So would it be okay when they are single and even after they get married? I guess I can presume that because he pinched a married women's butt it would definitely be okay to pinch a single women's butt? (Again as long as it's intended as a joke)
Now how do I explain this to my beautiful daughter's? Should I tell them not to take care of themselves so that way no male will be interested in pinching their bottoms? Or is it better to tell them that that's life and boys will be boys? That way they can prepare themselves for the inevitable? Or do I tell them not to put much thought into how the touching makes them feel, but they should be more concerned about what the intent is of the person doing the touching? What do I tell them if the person doing the touching isn't joking? Please help me explain to them how to discern what kind of touching is meant to be a joke and what might not be a joke? Where is that line? Or is there a line?
Something doesn't feel right about telling my daughters that males can pinch their bottoms whether they like it or not? Am I being over protective? I guess in all of this I also wonder what terms like "unwanted" touching means? Is there such a thing? Does no actually mean no? Or is it dependent on what the person is wearing or looks like? And "personal space" what does that mean?
We are in the early stages of setting up a ministry for men who have been sexually abused. If you are interested I would love to hear from you! You can reach me at [email protected]
As an abuse survivor, I am curious as to the push back on background checks. I would like to better understand, and maybe I'm reading something into this that isn't there. Would you be willing to expand on your thoughts on this topic?
Thanks for responding to me. Thank you for your kind words. You are absolutely right about the Savior's healing balm for the wounded soul! I have experienced that healing balm!
To me dialogue is important so we can better understand each other, and varying viewpoints from our own. As brothers and sisters in Christ we share a common goal, and it's my hope and prayer that we can work together to advance the Kingdom of God here on earth and shed His Light on some of the dark places.
I'm not going to say how your church should or shouldn't do things. I will just tell you how ours does it and the reasons why I agree with the way they do it. I also happen to have a 16 year old daughter.
In our church if you wish to participate in a children's ministry or a ministry for vulnerable people you must have a criminal background check done. It doesn't matter who you are or who you know. You might be the police chief, the pastor, the army general, my 16 year old daughter, doesn't matter, you must have a criminal background check. In our church there is no room for discretion, because discretion, in my humble opinion, is a loophole for someone trying to find away in without their past being exposed. In our church you can sweet talk or schmooze all you want but with out a criminal background check you won't get in. This helps me sleep at night knowing that I don't have to worry that the "wolf in sheep's" clothing is going to talk their way in and hurt one of our little ones. I for one certainly wouldn't want to bear the burden of knowing that because someone duped me a child was abused. This doesn't guarantee that it won't happen, but it certainly is an obstacle to anyone trying to get in for the wrong reasons. We explained the reason for the criminal background check to all of our children (boys and girls) and they agreed with it 100%. Initially in our church there was some push back, but once everyone knew that everyone had to have one, and the reason why they had to have one, then most were okay with it.
So I understand why Safe Church would like to see this across the denomination. "Not on our Watch" is the message to would be abusers when you have non-discretionary things like criminal back ground checks. Very rarely do you hear the post mortem on an abuse case, that people say of the abuser " I knew it, I recognized them as an abuser". Usually the comments are more like," I would have never suspected that person, they were so nice and friendly, what a shock".
Kelly, You are a brave soul! Thank-you so much for taking the initiative on this! It's time to shine the healing and life giving light of God's Holy Spirit on some of the darkest and most destructive work of the enemy especially as it relates to men and boys. I look forward to working with you in this important ministry!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Hi Roger,
Thank-you for getting back to me. May I remind you of a few things. This happened between a pastor and a married women who was not his wife, at a church sanctioned function. This is not the first time this pastor has done this. This is for sure the second time and he has received mandatory counseling as well for this type of behavior. The perpetrator does not get to tell the victim how their actions may or may not affect them. Do you understand that this situation can potentially have devastating effects on an individual and cause them to leave the church and never want anything to do with God or his Kingdom?
Roger, if this pastors's actions prevented even one person from entering the Kingdom of God isn't that grounds enough for them to be removed from office?
If the pastor was truly repentant there are ways in which he could return to being a pastor.
Article 11 of our church order states "The calling of a minister of the Word is to proclaim, explain, and apply Holy Scripture in order to gather in and equip the members so that the church of Jesus Christ may be built up." Sometimes we use terms like "Kingdom building"
So if a pastor is to be a kingdom builder and one who is part of God's team, how then can anyone in our church leadership support anyone who is a kingdom destroyer? These are two opposing forces! This wasn't a "one off" there is a pattern here. When the shepherd is the wolf, the sheep are in serious trouble!
Just because the elders decided not to do anything about this situation doesn't make it right. In fact it makes me seriously question our leadership and where their loyalties lie. Maybe it's time our denomination set up an inquiry to look into these sorts of things? Sadly I am sure this isn't the only time things were swept under the carpet.
For me it is mind boggling that you can say things like" it was just a pinch"! In fact it wasn't just a pinch it was also the words that were said to this women and it's the previous actions that were serious enough to put him in mandatory counseling. It's not an isolated pinch. It's a sum of actions that this pastor has done to prove that he should not hold the office of minister of the Word.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Hi Roger,
I'm not sure if you misread the story. You keep implying that he was found not guilty but the story says "I was contacted several weeks later and informed that the committee recommended a two year suspension of his ministerial credentials." He was found guilty by the committee, the fact that his punishment was never carried out is what is disheartening to say the very least.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Hi Roger,
Unless you were on the committee that made the recommendation or at the meeting of the elders that should have enforced the recommendation, you don't get to change the narrative of someone else's story! Period! You don't get to make assumptions about someone else's story. I don't know which planet in God's universe where it would have been acceptable for this pastor to do what he did! Especially since this was not his first offense! Frankly I find your defense of this pastor's actions pretty upsetting. It appears no amount of reasoning with you is going to change that. So for me, you have proven that the moral of this story is true! and that is, that certain pastors will defend other certain pastors actions and try to discredit or re-write the story of anyone who brings forth allegations of sexual misconduct. Thank-you for proving to me we live in a fallen world, and thank God for Safe church!
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Thank-you safe church for providing a venue where stories of hurt can be shared in a safe environment. I also hope this can be a place of learning. Learning how to empathize with a hurting individual, learning how to "hear" someone's story, without adding or subtracting to it. Learning appropriate responses. I believe that most who have received any healing from their hurt know all to well that yes there is power, incredible power in the precious blood of the Lamb. I know i do.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Amen Bonny. Thank-you for these important words that needed to be said. I pray that you have spoken for the silent majority.
Posted in: S.O.S. Sexual Assault at a Retreat by Clergy
Hi Roger,
As a male and an uneducated "lay" person I rightly or wrongly look to our denomination for leadership on a variety of topics. That includes pastors, elders and deacons on a local level. I am married and have 5 children. 2 boys and 3 girls. In light of this account and your understanding of it, and you as a pastor or leader in our denomination. I am wondering if you are able to help me answer some questions I have, as I counsel my children in light of this story.
I'll start with my boys. As I'm hearing it from you it seems okay for a male to pinch the bottom of a female as long as it's done in the context of being a "joke". From reading this story I'm not concluding that she thought it was a joke and no where in the story does it say that they had joked in this manner previously so I guess my questions are as follow;
If one of my sons wants to pinch a girls bottom should the comment that goes with it not be said out loud? That way everyone will know it was intended as a joke? If it's whispered as it was, anyone who observed the pinch may not understand that it was intended as a joke? Or do you make sure you do the pinch when no one is watching? That way you don't need to explain things to people who may not understand? Clearly from this story the female didn't understand that it was intended as a joke, so should he have immediately explained to her he was joking? That may have cleared up any confusion? Also wondering if you are allowed to do this as a married male? The story doesn't say if he was single or married? So would it be okay when they are single and even after they get married? I guess I can presume that because he pinched a married women's butt it would definitely be okay to pinch a single women's butt? (Again as long as it's intended as a joke)
Now how do I explain this to my beautiful daughter's? Should I tell them not to take care of themselves so that way no male will be interested in pinching their bottoms? Or is it better to tell them that that's life and boys will be boys? That way they can prepare themselves for the inevitable? Or do I tell them not to put much thought into how the touching makes them feel, but they should be more concerned about what the intent is of the person doing the touching? What do I tell them if the person doing the touching isn't joking? Please help me explain to them how to discern what kind of touching is meant to be a joke and what might not be a joke? Where is that line? Or is there a line?
Something doesn't feel right about telling my daughters that males can pinch their bottoms whether they like it or not? Am I being over protective? I guess in all of this I also wonder what terms like "unwanted" touching means? Is there such a thing? Does no actually mean no? Or is it dependent on what the person is wearing or looks like? And "personal space" what does that mean?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Posted in: Where Do You Live? Say Hi Below!
Happy New Year! From Chilliwack, B.C.
Posted in: Back to the Future! Safe Church at Synod 1994 and 2019
Hi William,
We are in the early stages of setting up a ministry for men who have been sexually abused. If you are interested I would love to hear from you! You can reach me at [email protected]
Thanks Frank
Posted in: Background Checks: What Screening Services Does Your Church Use?
Hi Eric,
As an abuse survivor, I am curious as to the push back on background checks. I would like to better understand, and maybe I'm reading something into this that isn't there. Would you be willing to expand on your thoughts on this topic?
Thanks Frank
Posted in: Background Checks: What Screening Services Does Your Church Use?
Hi Eric,
Thanks for responding to me. Thank you for your kind words. You are absolutely right about the Savior's healing balm for the wounded soul! I have experienced that healing balm!
To me dialogue is important so we can better understand each other, and varying viewpoints from our own. As brothers and sisters in Christ we share a common goal, and it's my hope and prayer that we can work together to advance the Kingdom of God here on earth and shed His Light on some of the dark places.
I'm not going to say how your church should or shouldn't do things. I will just tell you how ours does it and the reasons why I agree with the way they do it. I also happen to have a 16 year old daughter.
In our church if you wish to participate in a children's ministry or a ministry for vulnerable people you must have a criminal background check done. It doesn't matter who you are or who you know. You might be the police chief, the pastor, the army general, my 16 year old daughter, doesn't matter, you must have a criminal background check. In our church there is no room for discretion, because discretion, in my humble opinion, is a loophole for someone trying to find away in without their past being exposed. In our church you can sweet talk or schmooze all you want but with out a criminal background check you won't get in. This helps me sleep at night knowing that I don't have to worry that the "wolf in sheep's" clothing is going to talk their way in and hurt one of our little ones. I for one certainly wouldn't want to bear the burden of knowing that because someone duped me a child was abused. This doesn't guarantee that it won't happen, but it certainly is an obstacle to anyone trying to get in for the wrong reasons. We explained the reason for the criminal background check to all of our children (boys and girls) and they agreed with it 100%. Initially in our church there was some push back, but once everyone knew that everyone had to have one, and the reason why they had to have one, then most were okay with it.
So I understand why Safe Church would like to see this across the denomination. "Not on our Watch" is the message to would be abusers when you have non-discretionary things like criminal back ground checks. Very rarely do you hear the post mortem on an abuse case, that people say of the abuser " I knew it, I recognized them as an abuser". Usually the comments are more like," I would have never suspected that person, they were so nice and friendly, what a shock".
Thanks for hearing me out.
Frank
Posted in: Sexual Assault Against Boys: My Story
Hi Kelly,
Thank-you for sharing your story! That takes a tremendous amount of courage! I would love to talk with you more if you are interested?
Thanks Frank
Posted in: Sexual Assault Against Boys: My Story
Kelly, You are a brave soul! Thank-you so much for taking the initiative on this! It's time to shine the healing and life giving light of God's Holy Spirit on some of the darkest and most destructive work of the enemy especially as it relates to men and boys. I look forward to working with you in this important ministry!
Frank