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John, I will attempt to answer your 10 questions now from my own experience in the West Bank and a lot of reading:                Question #1 and #2 : I don't think it matters what the land was called except that it was called Palestine in recent history and to this day, well a part is supposed to be the state of Palestine and the other Israel, but as we all know, one was allowed self-determination through a couple of powerful allies and the other not.

And even if Israel is the overall occupying power as is the case: Leviticus 19 : 33 says "When an alien resides with in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God".

It looks like the writers of our modern International Law must have some background from Leviticus when it comes to behaviour of occupying powers! I so wish that modern state of Israel were that light on a hill and I could really revell with the wonderful stirring music of the movie "Exodus"!!

The owning of the land was in the old testament always contingient on Israel's faithfulness; sinfulness resulted in loss of inheritance and so land and righteous are linked.

So, "Is this all about land anyway?" As we already mentioned before in our discussions; No not really, we are to act righteously and love whoever lives in the land. Our Lord was also not interested in establishing a kingdom, his message was simply "to love the Lord your God and your neighbor as yourself".

The taking of land illegally, forcefully and without regard of the welfare of citizens that were deeded owners of the land for many, many generations is in deed an aweful and terrible thing to witness. It is what my fellow Christian Peacemaker Team members and I protested against in the Jarrah neighborhood in East Jerusalem, it was a great feeling that many Jewish people stood along side of us, even those orthodox guys with black hats who were actually Judaists (spelling?) protesting the Zionist ideology. I still receive weekly reports of this and other human rights abuses from the CPT. Sometimes I don't want to open those messages because it is so depressing and I can't always handle it.  

Even though this advocating is difficult work, I meet so many wonderful human beings. In our chapter of "Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East" or CJPME we work together sometimes with "Sabeel" which is Christian or the local chapter of "Amnesty International". We hosted a meeting of CJPME recently and we had an Egyptian, a Palestinian (no right of return), a Jewish man, a woman who is an Occupational Therapist who worked with people in Gaza from the World Health Organization, whom we met from across our house! There was also a young moslim woman of Lebanese Palestinian back ground who became quite emotional and said "I did not know that any Canadians cared about us." I just about cried along with her. So there is reconciliation and Christian love shown right in our neighborhood and I thank God for moments such as these!

Well, Doug, as I mentioned earlier the publication "Steadfast Hope: The Palestinian Quest for a Just Peace"  an excellent  study guide by the Israel/Palestine Mission Network from a reformed perspective from the Presbyterian Church USA still available at $10. 

Other churches like the Presbyterian church, Mennonite, Reformed Church of America, Episcopalian have their own version and I don't know how many CRC churches but we did have a study group in our East Hill Community Church in Vernon, BC.

So that is one way and there may be others.

The "CRC Engagement in Palestine and the Palestinian Territories" report mostly compiled our church's history to date on the subject, some suggestions going forward and population statistics.

It is too bad that there should be disagreement about that report, one could learn from talking about it.

My point was just that we should be able to trust our own  people going to Israel and those that meet them in the "field" so to say.

My experience is that no matter what persuasion of the Christian faith you are whether free evangelical or reformed or whatever coming back from Hebron or Gaza they have pretty much the same story of abuse of human rights and international law.

I am also not saying any party is blameless.

I do recommend going and spending time in Hebron or Gaza, people will not be the same again (not that everybody can just do that). 

It is really hard coming back from a place like those (just Hebron for me) and driving home the oppressive conditions people endure for generations now!

So the reason I mentioned Michael Lynke as the Special Reporter for the UN Human Rights organization is because it is not part of any faith group or party and internationally recognized, not because any one mentioned before is more or less righteous.

Comments on Questions 3, 4 and 5:

 

 # 3, Interpretations regarding “Waqf”: Mostly what I found on the internet was that it means an “endowment” which could be on a small personal scale or on important mosques, or other significant buildings. Some are very significant and others not so much, I did not find anything about declaring war, etc.  You would have to let me know where to find other explanations?

Probably Islamic laws might vary greatly from let say Pakistan, Indonesia or Palestine; just like there are many laws for orthodox Jews I would think as they are all about laws.

Again overture #6 is not about land and buildings as much but rather the great commandment to love God and your neighbor.

 

# 4 and # 5, Who has the corner on enmity or antisemitism? It is just as likely Europeans or North Americans, just think of the years of the nineteen thirties and forties or even today.

Actually there were times in Palestine and also Spain where the Jewish, Moslem and Christian societies prospered together.

 

It is in the forties, fifties and to this day when the Zionist ideology took over that started major discrimination against the local people whether they be Bedouin, Christian, Moslem.

There are Israeli Jews who are not Zionist and just wanted Palestine as before but alas this group is quite small. They are living a bit more like the prophets called for and they were the ones that stood alongside us in protesting house demolitions of Palestinian homes.

 

Are there no prophets in the land?  if anything was missed in the writing of the overture it is like the following:

I should mention prominent groups like “Peace Now” or “Shalom Achshav” in Israel

or in the USA “America Peace Now” This group of mostly Jewish people has organized huge rallies for peace and for a state for Palestinians. Peace Now has extensive maps of illegal settlements and great resources.  Prof. Gary Burge: ”When I have been feeling overwhelmed and depressed by the tremendous weight of the injustices in this land, it has been Jewish activists who have given me new inspiration. I believe that the reason of such extensive Jewish effort is because of the prophetic tradition itself. Deep in the heart of Jewish faith is what is ethical and just. This Israeli national harm to their Palestinian neighbors is profoundly offensive to what it means to be Jewish. Orthodox Jews and liberal Reform Jews alike can be seen marching in a city like Jerusalem calling out with the voice of Jeremiah and Amos as witnesses to the crimes they see. Are there prophetic voices in the land?  Is Elijah’s still heard?  Indeed!”

 

The Dispensationalist Christian Zionists, I find, are all about the end times and seem to care little of what is going on in Israel/Palestine and is what we of reformed faith should reject. 

Preachers like John Hagee seem to have an undying heart for Israel, without any regard of the documented sufferings of Palestinians.

Prof. Marvin Wilson, a specialist on Judaism from Gordon College an evangelical institution says it well: ”The number one obstacle to peace is nationalism, because so often it insists on the denial of the other guy. A biblical view can’t be anti -Arab and pro -Israel, or anti -Israel and pro-Arab. God’s heart is where justice is”.

 

Christian Palestinianism? A new label, but not mine as I care for all peoples of the land.

 “World Vision” the biggest evangelical charitable organization in the world with “the mission to follow our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ in working with the poor and oppressed to promote human transformation, seek justice and bear witness to the good news of the Kingdom of God.”

Unlike other Christian charitable organizations they are not involved in politics but network with the local Palestinian churches like Catholics, Orthodox, Evangelical Lutheran and Aglican.

But secondly their Jerusalem office has become an outspoken, high profile advocate for human rights in Israel because they are in the midst of what is going on.

In much the same way does “Sabeel” works with the local churches to improve the lot of both Christian and Moslem peoples. Rev Naim Ateek is himself a pastor with the Anglican church, their focus is very much encouraging congregations, to minister with women, youth, etc.

But also have an international arm like World Vision.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To John Span:

Naim Stifan Ateek, one of the founders of "Sabeel" or The Way", is a warm, gentle, great Christian man. I met him in Kelowna, British Columbia, as I was part of a committee inviting him to speak to a broad spectrum of the community in the Okanagan Valley in a Mennonite church. We prayed and dined together with pastors of the area.

He is one of the Living Stones of the Land where he went to the Nazareth Baptist school, got his masters and doctoral training in the USA. He does legendary work in encouraging the Christians that are left in Israel/Palestine as well inviting Christians world wide to Bethlehem. I was at his office in Jerusalem where we were supposed to meet one of the local pastors but this pastor arrived very late as he detained at Israeli checkpoints.

It is in my mind not helpful to taint him with the same brush as some rogue example from South America

It is not the idea of this overture to have a detailed discussion about Liberation Theology which does have its place in the context of the suffering church in my opinion.

 

Overture # 6 Background:

“The role of the Church in the face of injustice is not to remain silent but to speak truth prophetically against oppression, discrimination, human rights abuses, and to call on governments to uphold international law.

Our denomination has previously acted on its obligation to speak to injustice in a similar situation by addressing “Apartheid” in South Africa. It is time again for the Church to use it’s voice in like manner about the ongoing injustices in occupied Palestine.”

 

I came across this UN ESCWA Report (that is Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia) from 2017 called “Israeli Practices towards Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid” 71 pages long and I read most of it.

It’s authors are Prof. of International Law, Richard Falk, UN Special Reporter and Virginia Tilley, Prof. of Political Science U of Chicago, who came to the conclusion that the State of Israel is indeed committing the now recognized crime of institutional apartheid against the Palestinian people.

 

Four Domains:

Domain 1: The use of laws to curtail the capacity of Palestinian citizens of Israel to obtain equal rights with Israel’s democracy.

Domain 2: Highly insecure residency laws for Palestinian residents in East Jerusalem.

Domain 3: Military Law governing Palestinians in the Occupied Territories as a permanent alien population which rejects any claim they may want to make on Israeli political representation for equal rights and conditions.

Domain 4: Policies preventing Palestinian refugees and involuntary exiles from returning to their homes in Mandate Palestine.

These domains interplay on each other to enfeeble Palestinian resistance to Israel’s apartheid oppression.

 

There is much more on demographic engineering, discriminatory laws, no freedom of movement and practices that cannot be contained in this brief note……we should all read it.

 

I found at the end of the report under General Recommendations:

“United Nations bodies, national governments and civil society actors, including religious organizations, should formally endorse the principal finding of this report that the treatment by Israel of the Palestinians is consistent with the crime of apartheid.

 

I don’t know what religious bodies are meant here but I do know that many churches have made resolutions or overtures on this subject. 

This is a very pressing issue for us because our governments are heavily involved in this awful stuff and we are implicated in it, the USA much more so and Canada, no matter Conservative, Liberal, all our administrations have supported Israel’s immoral behavior, one just more overtly than the other. Our governments say they support a two state solution but let Israel build more settlements with $4 billion (from the USA) in aid to boot.

 

There are also counter arguments listed which can be accessed.

This report has yet to make it’s way to the International Court of Justice still.

 

I feel very sad having to present these things, it feels very heavy on my heart, we have not even talked about Gaza yet. We have been kept in the dark for too many years by a lack of honest reporting. We really do need to pray for all the parties involved and search our souls too.

 

 

 

 

 

Lubbert:

I admit to you Lubbert that I or we could have listened better before taking the overture to classis a second time. You did inform us that the overture needed significant change for classis to discuss it again. We thought that we had made enough changes to merit an approval by classis but I guess we thought wrong.

 

What bothered us about the process though was that the advisory committees only included people that knew the one narrative of Israel/Palestine and Not both sides, while there were definitely people in the two churches on the committee that know both narratives.

In particular one person who has very intimate knowledge and heart for the subject was sidelined. This person went to great expense of her own, even lived with a family that endured hardship from the Israeli occupation.

I was told that there were educated people on the advisory committee and indeed some of them were, they have a degree or two; the problem is that they were not really informed though on the whole of the issue.

 

I agree with Jennifer that the churches could do more for our indigenous peoples and yes, the Anglican church in Canada (in the USA Episcopalian) is more involved here, it is through KAIROS in the Anglican church that I got involved in both our First Nations and Palestinian/Israel issues.

There remain many inequities for our indigenous and settler peoples not unlike in Israel but in our country there is some progress going on, the reconciliation process is happening.

However, for Palestinians and Israelis the situation is getting worse every year. Palestinian families are systematically and illegally dispossessed of their homes and land every week at an increasing rate.

 

Besides calling for more awareness for our church members the overture has an admonishing word for the Israeli government and its military. Rightly so because as an occupying power under international law there are strict laws that are to be obeyed by Israel , however they tend to ignore them. 

One example, since 2000, at least 8000 Palestinian children have been arrested and prosecuted in an Israeli military detention system notorious for the systematic treatment and torture of Palestinian children; see Amnesty International report 2015-16.

No wonder organizations like “NoWaytoTreataChild.org” come into existence. Doug, you are a lawyer, why don’t you check them out and compare notes with their lawyer.

If Naim Ateek of Sabeel shows anger at times it is because it is a righteous anger on behalf of his people and their women and children.

 

Gaza:

Saturday, June 8, there was an internet conference linking eight cities in Canada, including our city of Vernon, BC, with the chief orthopedic surgeon from the Shifa Hospital in Gaza and a 3rd year dentistry student. They spoke to us and we could ask questions from them directly. We learned   about the trauma and psychological harm to men, women and children. It is immensely troubling. (An eleven year old in Gaza has witnessed three conflicts in its lifetime; each of these conflicts were characterized by massive bombing raids on densely populated civilian areas.  An estimated 70% of children in Gaza need psychological counseling to address the symptoms resulting from the traumas they have experienced. )

Friends of Sabeel Canada was the main convener of this event and our community’s venue was at the  East Hill Community Church auditorium, where I am an elder. 

 

We raised funds for the “Near East Council of Churches” who have a longstanding relationship with Sabeel in their work for psychological support for children and youth through established maternal and child clinics in Gaza’s poorest districts.

 

We in North America are implicated in all this trauma, I am afraid, as our governments help fund this open-air prison under complete siege by Israel and partially by Egypt on the south border - probably part of a peace treaty with Israel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Listen, listen slowly to every phrase from this Christian pastor from Bethlehem:

"I am a Palestinian (Christian) living under Israeli occupation.

My captor daily seeks ways to make life harder for me. He encircles my people with barbed wire;he builds wall around us, and his army sets many boundaries around us. He succeeds in keeping thousands of us in camps and prisons. Yet in spite all these efforts, he has not succeeded in taking my dreams from me.I have a dream that one day I will wake up and see two equal peoples living next to each other, coexisting in the land of Palestine, stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan."

Rev. Mitri Raheb

Does this not speak to your heart?

It is seldom that we hear from Christians of the "Holy Land" and I doubt if he cares that much what the name of the country is,

he wants to live and breath in freedom and equality.

A large group of Christian pastors sent out the KAIROS Document: a combined cry to the western Church to pay attention to their plight......look it up on the net.

Whether they are Messianic Jews or Palestinian Christians, it does not matter, we should be listening to them.

Both have less status in modern Israel.

Lubbert:

I happen to have a friend who is a Christian born and raised in Jerusalem. He has no right of return. He is very sad about that. I can go back to bike in my old country where I grew up any time I want.

So I went to check that out. I witnessed the mess over there, not a cruise or a pleasant vacation.

It was very disturbing. You should check it out. I did not go to Turkey, my niece from Aldergrove is working there and in Armenia with a Christian Mission, we gladly contribute to her work. I know what happened there, I read the latest biography about "Lawrence of Arabia "a few years ago, it explained how the whole place was divided up by the colonial powers, mostly Britain. After a while the whole thing smelled to "high heaven" and Lawrence refused to be knighted right in front of the king. In the British Mandate they gave most of the land of Palestine to the Jewish people which we all loved for the sake of the Jewish refugees, it's just that there were people living there. But now the Jewish Israelis are the colonial power. It's somewhat similar to us in Canada being the colonial power and we  have to make things right with our indigenous people to be reconciled with them.....but in Israel they are continuing their colonial occupation full speed ahead. In Canada we don't put blame on the indigenous peoples for living here. Why do we want to put equal responsibility on the Palestinian peoples?? So I am doing all I can for all peoples in that area because we are all God's creatures, it is a justice and reconciliation issue that even "The Banner" can touch on. Why can we not talk about human rights issues re. Israel just like we do about Myanmar? I saw a newspaper headline from Israel sometime ago that read "Israel needs to be saved from itself!"; as if to say "we can't do" it to the world.   52 years is enough.

 

BDS is not the same as antisemitism, nor is criticism of the state of Israel antisemitism as Lubbert implies. The state of Texas had to back down because it impeded peoples free speech. 

 

 

Lubbert, Nick and Jennifer:

Re. the incorrect statement in the "Basic Human Rights" part of the "Grounds" for the second Classis BC SE being referred to is not from Gary Burge's book "Whose Land....Whose Promise" but from one of our overture team members for which I took the blame for not double checking that statement. Professor Burge's book was written before the Nation State came into being and I am sure he knows his facts.

The separate paragraph underneath about the fifty-eight evangelical leaders letter was taken from professor Burge's book.

 

Lubbert:   Well yes, Israel is in many peoples mind already an apartheid state , Israelis and Palestinians are being kept by walls, segregated by different licence plates, forced to live in bandustans which are areas designed to keep communities apart with many discriminatory laws, and much more. I already wrote about this in an earlier post.

Again, the UN ESCWA report called "Israeli Practices towards Palestinian People and the Question of Apartheid"(2017) by Professors Falk and Tilley which concluded that Israel is an apartheid state which was declared to be a crime some time ago. The unpopular Nation State Law was no help here either; it made non Jewish people groups second class which was already the case but this basic law formalized it.There are probably more states that could be called apartheid states but for now we are talking about Israel.

BDS...Boycott, Sanctions, Divestment: We did not ask for BDS in our overture but other churches have done this. Started by Palestinians themselves, it is one of the few peaceful options they have even if it hurts their own economy. Israel has lobbied hard for governments to declare it illegal in US states and lately Germany. But they are being challenged in the courts.

 

A reply to John Span and all:

John, read the overture again and notice that it is not about who owns the land but about the 

treatment of one people who have all the power over another people who have little power. 

The one has been impoverished by countless discriminatory laws by the

other occupying power for a long, long time.

 

The prophets always warned ancient Israel “to act justly...do not oppress the alien,

the orphan or the widow….to not shed innocent blood.” Jeremiah 7:5 -7

Remember the story of the prophet Elijah when he spoke to King Ahab “Have you killed and

taken possession?”  Ahab had killed Naboth and had taken what was not his. 1 Kings 21:19 

There is no blessing for ancient Israel nor the modern state of Israel. 

The forced illegal dispossession of homes and land takes place to this day.

 

Our Lord and Redeemer was not here to form an earthly kingdom but to call all people to Himself.

Jesus changed everything! The apostle Paul proclaimed that there is now no difference between

Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, we are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

Alongside ancient Israel, the modern state of Israel, we are all grafted into the “New Israel” 

for which our Lord died and rose triumphant. 

 

I was in Israel/Palestine, particularly in the Bethlehem and Hebron areas, in October 2015 to

specifically be a witness to what happens there. I went with the Christian Peacemaker Teams.  

There were eight of us. (Canadian, American, Australian). 

We talked with families who were dispossessed of their homes. 

We interviewed parents whose children were dragged off to jail.  

I saw how the Palestinian people in Hebron had to live with so many military checkpoints 

and the midnight raids they have to endure. 

We also spoke with Israeli Jews who are affected by the conflict or work for justice and reconciliation,

so many Jewish people are also deeply hurting from the trauma of what is there.

It was so disturbing that I resolved to speak up and be an advocate on all their behalf. 

It is about justice and descent human rights here and now.

 

The majority of visiting people go to places in Israel where there is relative calm and they naturally 

want to avoid the places where conflict is very real. Yes, there is corruption on both sides, 

you mention Hamas but Bibi Netanyahu will face the courts one day and not just in Israel.

Yes, the overture may seem to you to be one sided or lop-sided.

I agree with you because the whole situation there is lop-sided. 

You can find statistics about this on the website “ifamericansknew.org”.

The injustices done to Palestinians is plain to see and well documented by the United Nations and 

Israeli human rights organizations like B’Tselem. I also agree with Gary Roosma that the conflict 

has become complex but because Israel and a couple of western powers, mostly with the US support of 

$3 billion or more per year of US tax payer’s money. They are letting Israel be content with treating 

this as a frozen conflict. So, this keeps the Israelis in Tel Aviv wealthy but insecure; 

and this keeps the Palestinians poor and doing most of the suffering.

 

Brothers in the Lord, I am glad we are having a conversation about this most pressing subject and there

is much more to be said.

 

 

 

 

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