Daniel Zylstra

Ok. Thanks for getting back to me, John. I would add this: "The majority of the Church (geographically and/or temporally) has always believed this to be the correct interpretation, therefore it is correct."

Neither, Don,

As I read the article by Dr. Goheen, one of his key points is that, since the "global church" holds to the "traditional" interpretation of bible passages supposedly about homosexuality, we ought to stick with that same view. However, my understanding is that the reformers (Calvin, etc.), and C.S. Lewis, and logic itself all argue against going with the "majority" simply because it's the majority.
 

1. The Reformers said that, contrary to the habit of the Roman Catholic Church at the time, we should NOT give particular weight to the "tradition" of the church, but that ONLY scripture mattered.

2. Lewis, as pointed out in this quote, recognizes that correcting old and incorrect beliefs ONLY happens when people don't worry too much about what "the majority" thinks.

3. The rules of logic tell us that an argument based on what "the majority" thinks is no argument at all. It is akin to the old illustration, "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you?" No? Well maybe that's because what "the majority" believes has no relevance whatsoever to what is actually right/correct.

With all due respect, Keith, I don't think that this quote is as devastating as it sounds at first. The reality of the matter is that it is absolutely true that using the scriptures to try to "convince" people of things is of dubious value at best--in my own experience, throughout church history, and in the bible itself.

In my own experience, and, I suspect in yours too, the number of times that people actually change their opinion because of what you or I might say that the Bible says is pretty limited. How many people do you know who were convinced that they should become a Christian because someone argued successfully that the scriptures were true? Isn't it more often the case that people see our relationship with Jesus, and as we share with them our love, our beliefs (in words and deeds), and the difference it has made in our lives, along with the working of the Spirit in their lives, and their own experiences that they develop a relationship with God? In short, I believe that the vast majority of people don't get argued into the Kingdom, but rather that the Spirit woos them into the Kingdom through experience and relationship.

But even aside from conversion, the truth is too that Christians have been arguing over what the Bible says (or doesn't say) for as long as the church has existed. Everything from whether the body and soul are two separate things (an issue Paul's epistles address), to whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, or only the Father, to whether baptism should be performed on infants and new believers, or only new believers....the list goes on an on. And NO ONE has come with the "knock-out" biblical punch that convinces everyone else that their interpretation of the Bible is right, and everyone else is just heretical (or "unbiblical" if we want to be slightly nicer.

Even the Bible acknowledges that the scriptures can be misused. Goodness, Satan himself quotes scripture at Jesus, and it is up to Jesus to resist the false inferences that Satan brings up. Additionally, where did the different religious parties of Jesus' day come from if not from differing interpretations of scripture!

So, I hate to say it, but it is sometime true that scripture is not really that useful for "convincing" others of the rightness of our position (regardless of what that position may be).

Good questions, Doug.

For Leviticus 18:22, I would deal with it by looking at the context. Verse 21 says "Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord." Verse 24 says "Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled."

This seems to place these injunctions in the context of worshipping idols. It seems similar, to me, as what we read in Lev. 20:2-7, 22-23. 

Also, the word "abomination" (Hebrew word is 'toevah') is associated strongly with idolatrous practices in at least 38 other passages, according to James V. Brownson in "Bible, Gender, Sexuality", pg. 270: (Deut. 7: 25-36; 12: 31; 13: 14; 17: 4; 18: 9, 12; 20: 18; 23: 18; 27: 15; 32: 16; 1 Kings 14: 24; 2 Kings 16: 3; 21: 2, 11; 23: 13; 28: 3; 33: 2; 34: 33; 36: 8, 14; Ezra 9: 1, 11, 13; Jer. 2: 7; 7: 10; 16: 18; 32: 35; 44: 4; Ezek. 6: 9; 7: 20; 8: 9; 14: 6; 16: 2; 16: 36, 47; 18: 12; 44: 7; Mal. 2: 11).

From the context, both immediately surrounding Lev. 18:22, and the broader linguistic context, it seems to me that this verse is dealing with purity, especially in terms of refraining from idol worship and it's practices (like temple prostitution).

In addition, these laws seem to me to be in the context of Levitical purity laws more generally. That is the overall theme of Leviticus, in a way--helping the people of Israel to live holy lives as a part of their life in the context of the Constitution Theocracy that God was calling them to. We seem to happily embrace Paul with regards to the ceremonial and purity laws when he talks about how "all things are permissible" (1 Cor. 6:12), and how "nothing is unclean in itself" (Rom. 14:14), and with Peter, when his vision of the "unclean animals" leads him (and us) to believe that we can not only be saved by Jesus as gentiles, but that we can also eat pigs, if we want (Acts 10:28). We also seem to be agree with Paul when he confronts Peter about no longer eating with gentiles (Gal. 2:11-13), even though Peter was concerned about being ceremonially unclean. 

In short, it doesn't make sense to me really that we don't think that the following are literally and directly applicable to us:

- the laws regarding offerings (Lev. 1-7),

- the laws regarding Ordination and the priesthood (Lev. 8-10),

- the laws of cleanliness (Lev. 11-15),

- the laws concerning atonement and tabernacle worship (Lev. 16-17),

- the regulations concerning priests, offerings and feasts (Lev. 21:1-24:9),

- the punishments for blasphemy, murder, etc. (Lev. 24:10-23),

- the laws concerning the Sabbath year, Jubilee, Land Tenure, and slavery (Lev. 25),

- the blessings and curses for covenant obedience and disobedience (Lev. 26)

- and the regulations for offerings vowed to the Lord (Lev. 27)

In fact, it seems like the only chapters we think apply to us somewhat literally and directly are the laws found in chapters 18-20. And even there we are very selective. When's the last time you heard anyone preach that it was a "sin" to "have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period."? Or how would we deal with Lev. 19:20-22 regarding a man sleeping with a slave girl who is promised to another man.

My point is that not only the context of Leviticus, but also our understanding of what Christ has done and what it means for us who are gentiles with regards to levitical law, and our behaviour regarding vast swaths of Leviticus indicates that we recognize that, though there is wisdom in the laws found in Leviticus, and though it is helpful for our instruction, we are not beholden to it in the same way as ancient Israel was. It doesn't apply in the same way to us as it did to them. And if it does then we are going to be like the "Judaizers" that Paul talks about. It either all applies exactly the same way as it did for them, or it all doesn't.

Does that mean we can ignore Leviticus? No! By no means. Just like Paul says in 1 Cor. 6:12 "'Everything is permissible for me'--but not everything is beneficial."

To me all of this means that we can't just take isolated passages like Lev. 18:22 and apply them blindly and universally to life today in our context. Instead we need to honestly wrestle with scripture and with wisdom and discernment given to us through the Spirit, and through thorough theology, exegesis and hermeneutics to try to discern the true underlying principles and how they might apply to us today.

The truth is that I wrestle at least as much with people who seem to believe that "happiness" and "fulfillment" are the highest goals of this life, and that being sexually active is an inalienable part of that happiness and fulfillment. To me that also is contrary to scripture. Our highest goals are to love God, in loving & grateful response to how he loves us, to love ourselves and other humans in his name and to care for the creation that he has given us to steward. As far as I can see, "happiness" has very little to do with anything. I am not called to be "happy", I am called to something much higher than myself.

The truth is also that I WISH we could just talk it all through based solely on scripture and have a realistic chance of actually coming to agreement. But, though scripture is useful for all that 1 Tim. mentions, nowhere do we read that scripture will always be easy to interpret, or that we'll always agree on what it means. I believe that the issue of human sexuality and what the Bible says about it has some legitimately debatable aspects to it. Some things are clear to me, and some things, I believe, are not as cut and dried (one way or another) as some would have us believe.

If that is true (and I believe you), then that is unfortunate indeed. I think it is true, sadly, that we will not be able to "convince" one another one way or another solely based on scripture. 2 Tim. 3:16-17 does not say that scripture will always be clear, black and white and easy to interpret.

That being said, the scripture is our authority and our starting place. If we leave that out, then what do we have left? Nothing but "experience", as changeable as the wind. Not good.

That is unfortunate indeed. 

Okay. Fair enough. I still feel that you have been employing language that is inflammatory. Aside from the issue of committed, monogamous same sex relationships which is what the website says is what A1B supports (although I agree that that was no-doubt "designed for public consumption", and I fully believe you that they did not emphasize that at all during that meeting, which is, I believe important and unfortunate)

But aside from that you also talk about "the LGBTQ+ agenda" and "LGBTQ+ ideology" as if there was one huge monolithic cabal of people conspiring in a united way to twist the world to their own ends. Estimates say that 3-4% of the population of the US is same-sex attracted. That's about 13 million people. Have you talked to all of them? I have not. The people I have talked to have as many different views on this issue as do the heterosexual people that I've talked to. They are not united in one monolithic view any more than African Americans are, or "whites", or men, or women, or Muslims or Buddhists--in other words you, in my opinion, paint an unfair picture of a conspiracy that you don't actually know exists beyond the borders of A1B and lump LGBTQ+ people into that conspiracy pretty universally.

Additionally, I understand that your interpretation of scripture leads you to believe that same sex sexual relations of any kind are "sin". That's fine, of course. But I am uncomfortable with your underlying assumption that you have a corner on that truth. That you have the only legitimate interpretation of scripture on this issue and that anyone else who believes differently must be wrong and must be supporting sin.

The church's history is full of people doing the same thing only to find out that they were being arrogant and that they were not nearly as "right" as they thought they were.

Everything from the slave trade to six, twenty-four-hour creationism, to gravity, and the orbits of planets, to the singing of hymns, to women having their heads covered, to baptism for infants, vs. baptism for only believers--so many people have believed that they've had a corner on the "right" interpretation of scripture. Could you not provide room for the possibility that other God-fearing, Jesus serving people who believe in the authority of scripture might legitimately interpret scripture on this matter, as on so many others, differently?