Elizabeth Guillaume-Koene

You're right Allen, when the exam ends up being about checking up on Calvin Seminary it isn't right.  It also isn't right when the examiner comes to the exam thinking: "I went through the ringer when I was examined, so this candidate will have to face the same thing." 

My exam a week ago didn't try to stump me or have me for lunch, and when I was asked something I didn't quite remember, the examiner helped me to figure out the right answer.  They really did use the time to help them all get to know me and let me shine.  It still isn't something I'd like to go through again - it was a very intense two plus hours.  After this experience and being an observer at another exam two days later in a different classis, I can see the value of the Classical exam and yet I wonder if there is still a way to streamline the process.

Thanks Dan and Karl for your stories.  I love hearing them.  Let's hear more of them!

Thanks dutchoven!  How are you working at "making Classis a viable exercise that truly draws the delegates and their churches closer together, reinvigorating their ministries and extending the vision provided by the Word of God..."?

I'd love to hear more stories about what classes are doing in this direction.

John, I don't think that anyone is saying that the local church is not the center of church life.  That is where the rubber meets the road and things happen.  At the same time, we live in community, as local congregations, in classes and denominations.  The Church Order does need to reflect that and if it doesn't as it is - let's work to change it.

John, I think you raise some interesting and important points.  I have experienced a lot of this in my own journey.  To many friends who do not attend church regularly, I am already a minister (even though I have not been ordained yet).  They know that I am involved in ministry and that I preach, so to them I am a minister and they do not understand why I cannot then also perform marriages and baptisms.  It has been a struggle to explain it to them as things like church order just do not make any sense to them. 

If elders were expected to do things like preach a sermon at times, do you think it would become even more difficult to find elders?  I know of one small congregation without a pastor that has a very difficult time finding elders because part of the requirement is that they lead a service and read a sermon regularly.  Most of the professing adults in that church do not feel comfortable in doing this.  How would we ensure that elders felt equiped and trained to do take on more?

Some of these changes would mean a lot more than just changing the church order as it would mean a shift in thinking for more than just pastors.  this may be a good thing but it would also be a long process.

Thanks Jason - do you have any experience using this in council meetings or budget meetings etc?  I'd love about it if you have.

Wow, great conversation.  It's got me thinking in a dozen different directions but I'll try to straighten my thoughts out and express some of them.

Church order, as far as I understand, is there to serve the churches and denomination rather than direct them.  So many of the changes over the years have come to address problems or difficulties that have come up - how can we prevent a problem from happening again.  Unfortunately it seems at times that churches, classes and the denomination are being rules by the Church Order rather than being served by it.  We can try to change the church order to serve us better, and we have done that many times over the years, but I wonder if that is really solving the problem.  This is where Van Gelder is right, we need to examine our assumptions behind the church order.  Then the changes we make to the church order might be better able to serve our congregations.

John, you are right, the congregation is where the "rubber meets the road."  But congregations often find it difficult to travel the road set before them alone (even though most of them try), I can see that in the number of indepentent congregations who are contacting the CRC every week to explore becoming affiliated with the denomination.  We need each other, congregations need one another, especially when problems arise.  But how do we determine when to give up autonomy to journey together - is it just when we need something?  If that happens then it becomes like an unhealthy marriage, when the partners just look to the marriage to get their own needs met.  If we are going to be in community with each other then we need to always be in community with each other, not just when it suites us best or when there is a problem to solve.  So the challenge of congregations, classes and the denomination is to do this in such a way that gives life to congregations rather than draining them (although just like in any relationship sometimes we will be asking one part of the team to give more than another). 

We often tend to look at church order and synodical decisions as hierarchy, but in our reformed polity it is not hierarchy but decisions based on the collective wisdom of the parts.  It tends to get mixed up sometimes in the way we try to explain it.  For example, a deacon explains to a parishioner that we HAVE to pay ministry shares to the classis and denomination because they told the church to.  That smacks of hierarchy, but really we pay ministry shares because the congregation has agreed to be part of a larger group of churches - to journey together - and ministry shares is one way how we all participate together.  One challenge in this system is to make sure that all voices are heard - that minorities (in all ways) do not get run over by the majority.  But we also have to realize that this means that sometimes we will be submitting to the other - the other who thinks and acts differently than we would like. 

John, your comments about elders, deacons and ministers is important.  As I sit in Classis meetings I often wonder how do we draw out the voices of the elders and deacons who are there.  Most of the time they are silent, letting their minister to most of the talking.  What wisdom are we all missing when we do not hear from them?  And the process of credentialling and calling ministers often seems very cumbersome.  It seems like most denominations are dealing with this issue as well.  In the book mentioned earlier, "The Missional Church and Denominations" there is an article written by Kyle Small of the Evangelical Covenant Church - a church with a history of mostly lay leadership and a "free-church" mind set, and yet they too are dealing with ordination issues that seem to have traveled far from their roots and become very ordered and cumbersome.  And yet, all these rules and guidelines (including church counselors for churches without a pastor) have come about out of the collective experience of calling ministers.  How do we have checks and ballances that are appropriate and give life?  We need those checks and balances for the protection of our congregations and pastors without them becoming too cumbersome. 

We need to constantly be in conversation with God and with each other about these issues as we try to figure out the way to go. 

Smaller groups does seem to be key - but how do you use these practices when you have a large group?  I don't want to loose out on the benefits of this type of thing just because we have a large group to deal with.

Thanks John and Jason, mikes are important - we discovered that when we didn't have them as the large group sat in a circle.  If I ever do something like this again we will make sure we have microphones.

The fishbowl conversation idea is interesting.  I wonder if/how it would work in a classis setting. 

While the Belhar is not necessarily a restorative justice issue, (although it deals with issues of justice), what I am trying to explore is how we can use restorative practices to discuss issues that are potentially divisive and controversial where all voices are heard and more listening happens than talking.

When I read all of this, I am reminded about how far we have to go, how broken we really are.  And I'm so thankful that God uses broken people and structures.  We need to always be renewed - day after day, but we do not have to be perfect in order for God to work through us.  We do not have perfect structures and we have a lot of problems that we need to work out as a church and I'm thankful for conversations like these that get me thinking and hopefully changing to be more like Christ, but God can and does work through us.  Thanks for your input - please continue!

Thanks for your welcome Allen.  Glad to be here and excited about the possible conversations we can have here.  What classis are you in again (I feel like I should know this information but it is not coming to mind right now).  How are things going in your classis?