John Zylstra

In my experience, both reformed and baptists have said that God is sovereign.   Both give God the credit for salvation in bringing it and providing it.  Both give God the credit for connecting it, one says by determination, the other says by grace and gift of faith.   It gets very close to semantics after that.  It is in limiting God's choices and God's power, that they sometimes differ.   One says God cannot be at the whim of man's choosing, so God determines.  The other says that God cannot determine or force someone to love him, so man's voluntary choice is necessary.  I say that God is all powerful so He can force someone to love him, if He wants.  I also say that if God is all powerful, can He not allow people to make choices, if He wants?   In any case, we have to live our lives, not God's life.  God calls us to trust and obey, not to debate about whether we have a choice or not.

Edwin, thanks for the apology.    So you admit lack of expertise in science… which is good, because even though I work in science, I do not claim to be an expert in all of these things.  However, knowledge is constantly changing or enlarging and being refined.  What you heard from a biologist about chimpanzees being 97% the same genetically as humans is dramatically wrong, for example.   In 1975, they said that the dna sequence that could be compared was 99% identical.  However, taking insertions and deletions into account, they share 96% of the sequence.  In later work, the genomes were found to be 87% similar (Britten).   However, what is not mentioned is that 35 million base pairs differ between the shared portions. In addition, the chimp genome actual size is about 8% larger than the human genome.  After taking into account genome size, insertions, deletions, the  starting point of 25% random similarity (because of only 4 bases), orthologous proteins, and structural differences, the conclusion is that the genomes are only  about 70% similar.

As far as progress through history, I have no arguments that a certain progression takes place.  The examples you cite in the old testament, are obviously God working with his people.   The events are foretold and they come to pass (Jeremiah, Ezra, Nehemiah).  God gave the Torah;  it was not somehow randomly and accidentally arrived at.  God sent Jesus;  He was not a result of accidental mutations, selections and adaptations.  So there is a big difference when God actively works with his people and his people respond in obedience, compared to some blind, accidental, random, and survivalist evolutionary progression.

There is no doubt, and I totally agree, that the gospel has a magnificent effect on social, governmental and educational activities in society.  I just watched “Amish Grace” yesterday for example which demonstrates this clearly.  But this is not a biological evolution.  This is a spiritual renewal, a being born again, a dedication to God, and a fulfillment of God’s promise.  It is wrong to conflate this with evolution in which God plays no visible role, or in which God cannot intervene.

Yes it is indeed God’s world, but the evolutionists from Darwin to Dawkins, would like to change that.

Edwin, I agree God is in control.  Always, everywhere.  Evolutionary theory does not agree with this, however.  It assumes God does not exist.   But the real point is whether God used evolutionary processes to create new species or kinds, or not.   The point is not whether God is in control, since we agree on that.

If God used evolution to create, then God used death and destruction long before man came about, and therefore man's sin did not lead to death, nor was any curse on earth a result of man's sin, and nor did God punish mankind for its rebellion the way Genesis indicates.  Cain's murder of Abel was a natural result of evolutionary processes rather than a sin meriting God's or man's disapproval.  Therefore both the reality and the symbolism of this story is entirely lost.  You have not dealt with these points.

I don't think I am emphasizing the negative really.   Evolution seems to me to emphasize the negative... the accidental nature of progress, the huge amount of death and destruction required for change to happen, the lack of even attributing value to what happens, ie.  the life of an ant, blade of grass, or amoeba is as valuable as the life of a man, in the evolutionary theory.  That seems negative to me.

The age of the universe... why is this positive?  Why are continental shifts, ice ages, etc.,  positive?   Why is the similarity between humans and primates positive? Does it matter? 

Why is it wrong to challenge the prevailing thoughts of the time?  Why do you think this is negative, rather than positive?  Was Darwin being negative in his time, by challenging the creation story as found in Genesis?

Theistic evolution is a theory trying to meld a theory that ignores God, with a faith in God as omnipotent.  This is a tough challenge, but even if we can do it theoretically, it really needs to be verified scientifically.

So, for me, regardless of how I might want to interpret Genesis 1-3, the issue becomes one of looking at nature, and seeing whether there is another way to interpret the evidence of fossils, rock layers, genetics, and natural selection.  These nine PhD scientists, and many others, are finding that there is another way to interpret them, and that in fact, the evidence does not consistently fit the theory of evolution.  In fact, there are so many problems that evolution becomes an unworkable hypothesis.  It doesn't even matter if a six day creation fits the evidence, since we can more and more clearly see that the general theory of evolution does not fit the evidence.

Some real questions:  (Positive or negative)

Is it realistic to think that the Grand Canyon was created slowly over time, or quickly by drainage of a huge flooded basin?

Were evolutionary biologists like Haeckel mistaken or lying  about the similarity of animal and human foetuses?

Were evolutionary paleontologists mistaken or lying about the categorization of human and "subhuman" fossil species?

If K_AR cannot reasonably accurately give the age of modern volcanic rock, can we still assume that they have made the right assumptions regarding measurements of "older" rock?

If dinosaurs are 65 million years old, can they still have stretchable organic tissue found in their bone fossils?

If layers of sediment represent millions of years of age, is it possible to have polystrate fossils imbedded thru several of these layers?

If mammal fossils or fish fossils are not found in certain rock layers, does that mean they did not exist when these layers were laid down?

These are just some starter questions;  there are many more.

Roger, wow... lots of words.  I do that too sometimes.   You might enjoy some of George MacDonald's books;  he influenced CS Lewis quite a bit, and hints at some of what you say in one or two of his fiction novels.  He suggests thru one of his characters that when someone is interested in doing good, he is halfway to getting to know God.  

Anyway, I wonder if you missed my comment on what Jesus said to the woman who annointed him with oil.   He said, "Your faith has saved you."   He did not say your good work has saved you.  So Jesus is basically saying that faith is evident thu action.  It's true he did commend the good samaritan in the parable, by saying to those who claimed to want to serve God should do likewise.  However, it seems to be that obedience must be done in faith and trust, not in the works themselves, but in the creator and redeemer.  If our good works honor ourselves, they become useless to save.  If they honor God, they become evidence of our faith in God ( not faith in our works).  Again, remember when Jesus said there will be those who claim God's favor because of their actions, their good works, and God will say, "I never knew you".  The reason is that those works were done to make self better, and perhaps proud, and were self-centered, rather than God-centered.  Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first, because of this, or in connection with this thought,  I believe.  

Also, the apostle Paul also balances faith and works in this way:  "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."  Rom 6.

So works without faith are not what God desires.  That is not real obedience.  Faith without works is dead, and is also not real obedience, and is not pleasing to God.  Real faith is inseparable from the obedience and the works that accompany it. 

Each age and situation has its own temptations.  The temptation to try to earn God's favor simply thru laws and rules, especially by continually making even more rules, is always there.  The "teachers of the law" had this, and it was to them that Jesus said they must be obedient by serving and loving neighbors, the less fortunate and less powerful, not just by being "good" religious people.  And what Jesus emphasized in fact, was their inability to keep the real law of God.  He showed this by mentioning that they used their gifts to church to neglect their parents, and by mentioning that not just murder but hatred, and not just adultery but lust was already breaking the law.  

Loving their neighbors and serving the less fortunate would be evidence of their faith in God, rather than faith in themselves and in their own ability to keep the law.  

Paul on the other hand was writing to a variety, both those who emphasized God's grace, and those who tried to earn God's grace by works, and those who took advantage of God's grace thru disobedience.  Grace through faith, not works.   But the disobedient would not inherit.  He wanted to strike the right balance, and make the balance clear.  James wanted to do the same thing.  John also,  when he says, those who love God can no longer keep on sinning.  

I believe God  said, be ye holy as I am holy?  Therefore, with minds that are alert and fully sober, set your hope on the grace to be brought to you when Jesus Christ is revealed at his coming. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”[a] I Peter 1. 

When you talk about grading good works, how do you deal with it?  Some say, I hope my good works outweigh my bad.  I've never murdered anyone.  Is a B+ a pass, while a B- is a fail?   How many good works are needed?  

Now to comment on your reference to Arminianism.  You refer to the universalism, but usually arminianism is referred to in the ability of someone to reject the gospel call.  With reference to the universalistic aspect,  I heard a preacher in a community church once preach that Jesus came to save everyone, that God loves everyone.  Well, that is scriptural, isn't it...  John 3:16:   God so loved the world, that he gave his son, that whoever believes might be saved.   But I said to the preacher (not a CRC), that his sermon might be seen to lack balance, because I knew he was not a universalist.  And even John 3:17 says that those who do not believe are condemned already.  He agreed, and at his bible study that week he pointed this out.  We agreed that Jesus death was sufficient for everyone, but not everyone would benefit.  So at a practical level, we must be careful not to overjudge, or to push people into a position not of their own making.  

I have heard it said by a reformed that because salvation is a free gift, we have to do nothing to be saved.  God does it all.  What about believing, I asked.  Do we have to believe?  The reply was that our believing did not save us, but Jesus saved us thru his work, his choice, his selection.  Our belief is because of our salvation, and does not cause it.  Well that seems to be true, but it is not balanced, because even scripture clearly says we must believe and have faith to be saved. Gal 2:16, Rom. 10:9-10.  This is an example of over- doctrinalizing to the point of contradicting certain statements of scripture.  If we are not allowed to say certain things even though scripture does say them, then our doctrines have become the sort of extra rules that Jesus did not approve of from the pharisees and sadducees.  

We dont' want to let our semantics kill us do we?  But I will say that if someone says he believes on God in spite of God, rather than because of God's spirit working in him, then we know that he is a true hyper-arminianist, who is like the man who enters the wedding feast but refuses to put on the robe of righteousness, because he thinks he is righteous enough already on his own.  

Have a good week. 

Yes, there will always be differences between believers.   Some differences will be marginal or traditional, or semantic.  Other differences will be serious.  We need to discern the difference.

As far as the science question you raise, could someone show evidence why a six day creation would fit the evidence... well, I don't think its perfect proof, but this book I am reading written by 9 PhDs in science attempts to do that.  If evolution is discredited, then evolution  cannot discredit the possibility of a six day creation... so that is a starting point.  But also the actual layering of sediment, formation of valleys, mountains, volcanoes, ice, should fit into the scenario of this six day creation and a catastrophic world wide flood.   It may be that we simply don't fully understand the implications of such a flood, but I think we are getting closer to it.  I personally have a problem with understanding how light from distant galaxies can travel and fit within that time period, unless it was created in process just like the stars, or the universe expanded very swiftly in the beginning, or light, being created on the first day made the first day somewhat timeless.   But given the evidence or lack of it, I have much bigger problems with seeing how evolution could have happened and left no evidence.

Scientists also have their paradigms, and that is why the nine PhD scientists who wrote the book  "Evolution's Achilles Heels" would disagree with Richard Dawkins.

What recent riddle has been solved to make evolution look more realistic?  I would say in general it has been the other way around.  Could you give one or two examples?

Roger, thanks for your comments.  It is a bit difficult to lump all other religions or faith beliefs together when comparing to Scripture.  There are various points on which each falls short.

Christians understand scripture to  be inspired by God and to be speaking the truth.   Yes there are sometimes different emphases, but differences are discussed in the framework of trusting scripture.  Whenever human ideas are placed on an equal plane with scripture, is when we have problems with heresy, lack of understanding, etc.  This was shown even in scripture itself, and also led to a need for the reformation.  But coming back to scripture allows for reconciliation, renewal, and unity.

Other faiths that believe in more than one god, or that make material things into gods, such as pieces of wood or stone or money or nature, are by and large irrational from the beginning.  However, scripture also indicates the ancient greeks worshipped the "unknown" god, which the apostle Paul suggested was the true God, whom they did not yet know.  The human desire to worship is a reflection of the way we were created;  so how do we find our way to the true God?  or, how do we let God reveal Himself to us?

A couple of belief systems built on christianity or historic scriptures but have added stuff, include mormons, bahai, and islam.  They basically orginate in somewhat of the same way, but are not the same.  How to compare these?  Mormons have added an entirely new revelation which was not even hinted at in scripture.  Golden plates, ironically only discovered by europeans rather than by aboriginals, and has anyone even seen pictures of these plates?  It's far fetched, but the main thing is learning when the book of Mormon contradicts scripture.  Furthermore, scripture is open, revealed, and available to all.  The things in scripture are by and large verifiable by history, ie.  rulers of Israel, roman conquest, syrian and babylonian rules, egypt, persecution of the church.  Scripture is written by numerous writers over a thousand years, yet makes a relatively consistent whole, with a direction, a beginning and end both historical and spiritual.  The books of the bible tend to refer to each other, and in that sense, validating each other.  The new testament writers had all met Jesus, and had met each other.  Of course, Mormons will claim their book is consistent with history, and in some peripherals it could be... but by and large it is a great stretch.  ( I have only read about a third of it.)

Islam also claims the prophets of christianity/judaism.  They even claim Christ as a prophet.  But scripture is clear, that Christ claimed to be much more than a prophet.  So if Christ is a prophet, somethings he said were false, according to Islam.  Which means there is an inconsistency and incoherency.   Of course, they say we don't have the true sayings of Jesus... which they would have to say, but as we find older manuscripts we are amazed at how similar they are to the newer ones.   So Islam tries to worship the true god, but because of their reliance on one man's words, they end up contradicting much of scripture.  This appears to put Islam into the category of false prophets which scripture warns us about.  Islam in some ways tries to do good things, ie. moral purity and daily prayer.  But it destroys the effect by forgetting that we must be born again in repentance, and that our thoughts condemn us, for which we need the sacrifice of Christ to redeem us.  We cannot redeem ourselves by our devotion nor by good works, we can only praise God with them.  And their methods of punishment often make them more impure than the ones they punish.  The immorality of the inquisition in Spain lives on in Islam today, and seems to be promoted by the Koran.   The inquisition at least was inconsistent with scripture, and so was an unchristian practice done by those who called themselves christian, thus requiring a reformation.

Bahai also claims another prophet.  But faiths built on prophets will fail as the prophets fail.   Jesus said that even  the jews who claimed Abraham as their father, and Moses as their prophet, would miss out on God, if they did not realize that only God had the ultimate claim on them.  Mormonism depends on Joseph Smith, and Islam depends on "Mohammed".  Without them, their system fails.   Christianity depends only on Christ, as revealed by all the writers of the old and new testament.  Additional writers and prophets such as Origen, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Huss, John Calvin, John Tyndale, Abraham Kuyper, Charles Wesley, Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis and many others, are only revealing scripture, not re-writing it, nor adding to it (or they shouldn't be, anyway), nor contradicting it.  If these other men contradict scripture, then scripture becomes the final authority, even though these may be sincere christian men.

In the end, just as believing in a piece of wood, or in nature, or in your self-sufficiency will let you down in the end, so believing in a false god will let you down also, either in this life, or in the life to come.   It is faith, not religion, that brings you close to God.  But religious life practices and beliefs can reveal truth or falsehood;  thus when mormonism advocated more than one wife in direct opposition to the epistles of timothy and titus, which said elders and deacons should be husband of one wife, they revealed a contradiction with scripture.  Most mormons have changed this now, but they had based this belief apparently on the book of Mormon, and so the book of Mormon has been somewhat discredited I would think.  I think in many ways, mormons are admirable people, but they follow a false book.

Islam is more problematic, because they follow a false prophet.   It would be like us following King Henry VIII as a prophet, or following John Calvin or Martin Luther or the Pope as a sinless individual.  Even King David of the bible was criticized by his generals and punished by God for his sins.  Certainly, has Mohammed  not revealed his own sins, while being unrepentant?  Should the words of such a man be considered inspired by God, and should he be followed as demi-god?

Sometimes there is no easy way to decide.  But pray to God that he will reveal to your heart who He is, and what He has done for us.

So, no examples then?  No evidence that you know of?