I'm sorry, Edwin, but to me it seems like you are only listening to about half or less of what is being discussed. I asked for examples of what science has discovered that indicates this "development" that you keep mentioning, but have not yet seen anyone provide examples. To what data are you referring? Part of what I have been mentioning is that the way data is interpreted by evolutionists may not be correct, so if it is not correct in interpretation, then even though it is part of God's revelation in nature, we cannot with certainty understand development the way that evolutionists understand development. Furthermore, there is an element of social regression in evolutionary faith, as I illustrated in my last post above.
Who is honest about the data of modern science? If we see DNA degradation in nature, if we see the mutation rates increasing cumulatively to the point that in a certain number of centuries it will no longer be possible for human beings to survive under the deleterious mutations, due to all the genetic defects, then would you still see progress or development? There is no observable evidence that one species or kind has evolved into another, no matter how many speculations have abounded. So what evidence do we have for this evolutionary development?
Scripture indicates that when God created things, it was good. It was later, through man's disobedience that things were not so good anymore. This to me seems somewhat anti-evolutionary. So whether you treat Genesis as symbolic or not, this is the message. And this is also what we see in creation itself, even though man works more and more to design and develop things which cope with or counteract the degradation we see in nature itself. God does institute a process of change in our relationship to him, yes. But this is the exact opposite of evolution. It is a dramatic, "catastrophic" event of being born again like the apostle Paul, or the repentance of the apostle Peter, or the struggle of the Reformation. It is the acknowledgement of God in the constitutions of the new nations of USA and Canada. But it is subject again to the obedience or disobedience of the people of earth. And it is counter to the philosophy of evolution.
At the time of Noah, people were so disobedient that God sent a flood to destroy them. You would think after that, that no one would disobey God, that all would fervently worship and be grateful. But not long after, man worshipped himself again, and many worshipped other Gods. Even though Christianity has spread and grown in the world today, how many north americans have abandoned faith and obedience? How does it compare to how non-christians have spread and grown in the world today? Is Islam part of the "development" of which you speak? How do you reference these things in your ideology of "development"?
When you say there can hardly be any valid objection to recognizing... you are begging the question. In fact, there are many valid objections, both to the interpretation of scientific data, and to the philosophical underpinnings for evolution and/or "development". If you say there cannot be objections, when there are objections, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the objections are not valid, and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the biological and evolutionary development. It does not help anyone simply to restate your position.
I had thought we were done, Edwin. And we are done. Unless we can leave the unproven generalities and get to specifics, it is no use pursuing an esoteric argument on vague philosophical generalities.
Yes, we have some things in common, ie., scriptural authority, God creating the universe. However, the extent of scriptural authority, the way we understand scripture, and the way God created the universe and people is important also. It is interesting that you as a non-scientist, and me as one who has a B.A. in philosophy and English, as well as a B.Sc. in Agricultural science, should have somewhat opposing perspectives on the validity of evolutionary science, as well as on how to understand literature (the Bible).
Is it important to some degree to have a fall-back position that if evolution were incontrovertibly true in every aspect (mud to man, goo-to-you, microbes to microbiologist) then how would scripture be still relevant. Is that what you are proposing? An insurance policy?
Back to your comments. Yes you are convinced of evolutionary theory in its totality, in spite of your stated lack of expertise; and I am convinced there is a lack of evidence for macro evolution, even though possibly the actual material of the universe might possibly be older than 10,000 yrs. Although, I think our minds cannot totally wrap around the possibility of time change, accelerated or decelerating expansion of the universe, etc. Cases of radio carbon dating not able to deal with recent volcano formation accurately remains unexplained. Cases of C14 material imbedded in much older(supposed) rock, remains unexplained. Macro evolution as far as I can tell is based on speculation, on the basis of faith in the theory, on only one interpretation, and not on actual fossil evidence. Documented fraud and error has been perpetrated by the evolutionary theory both in scientific papers and in classroom textbooks, particularly for the more well known assumptions of evolutionary theory, and particularly when it comes to theorizing on descent or evolution of humans.
But, you remain convinced that evolutionary theory is inviolable, so lets consider the typology problem. You suggest that even if Adam did not exist, people still sinned against God. However, you have not provided a mechanism for their sin. Why have they sinned? Why are they disobedient? Evolution theory suggests that there is no moral or ethical element in man’s development. Evolution is a process of death, competition, destruction, elimination of the less able, of survival and selection of species and individuals. Those are the morals of evolution. Why would God counter his own creation process through his commands to people. Or, why would God use a creation process so different from His own stated ideals for holiness, purity, kindness? Even Cain’s murder of Abel would merely be a natural evolutionary act.
If Eden is merely part of the typology, how does it relate? How could Eden then be anything other than the competitive, destructive, death dealing evolutionary process? What is the relevance in the typology of the fall into sin creating death? Doesn’t that make the typology entirely absurd? As a mere typology without substance, it would be seen to be absurd in the context of the evolutionary theory. The question would be asked: repent from what? From my evolutionary instincts and process?
The difference between Adam, and Christian in “Pilgrim’s Progress” is that “Christian” is a reflection of the redeemed man (not Everyman), not the presumed ancestor or progenitor of everyman’s sinful nature. Furthermore, if Adam did not exist, and if our sinful nature is merely our evolutionary process in action, then the validity of Pilgrim’s Progress will also be questioned. The significance of the creation story perhaps lies as much in whether God really did create everything good or not, or what God’s definition of “good” really is. Or in fact, whether God really spoke to man at all, or whether man created God rather than God creating man.
I find your identification of “new” and “old” somewhat limited, or perhaps lacking in depth. We often say “new” in generic comprehensive terms without identifying what is old and what is new. Ecclesiastes says there is nothing new under the sun. Yet it seems new to us. Hebrews 8-10 talks about the old and new covenenant but concentrates specifically on temple, worship, and sacrifices in particular. But it maintains that in understanding this new covenant, he who continues to sin places himself outside of this new covenant, which sounds suspiciously like the old covenant, doesn’t it. In other words, the old and the new covenant are different, yet inseparable.
So the Christians during the reformation brought new insights which were actually a return to old insights and precepts. Having just read the first nine chapters or books of Augustine’s confessions, it became obvious to all of us in this study group, that Augustine’s experiences of 300 AD were very similar to our own in 2014. New information does lead to new insights, true, but we should be very cautious about generalizations which are often untrue in specific cases.
On the science side, I would suggest that you not idolize the scientific community. They are human beings like everyone else, like mechanics, doctors, engineers. They do a lot of good stuff, but they make mistakes. Doctors bleeding people in order to cure illness. Lacking an understanding of bacteria, viruses. Slowly finding ways to treat AIDS but not cure it. Not yet anyway.
Scientists can work with things they can experiment with. But going back in time? Not so simple. Lots of assumptions. They may well find they were wrong on several significant points. I am finding too many problems with their assumptions about layering of sediment, placement of fossils, age of volcanic rocks, undocumented leaps of evolutionary progress.
I am only 60 years old, so I have not yet seen everything. One thing I have seen is that there are more scientific problems with evolution today than there were in the past. Another thing I have also seen is that for many, evolution is a religion or faith, held to most strongly by those who have the least information on it. So that makes me doubly cautious, something like Augustine’s eventual suspicion of the Manichees who lacked knowledge of the basics.
God will lead and teach us, but not all will be willing to accept His teaching until forced to at the last day. Evolution is the primary present day tool to lead us philosophically and morally away from God. On its own, it justifies our unlimited pursuit of money, superiority, material possessions, power, aggressive wars, lack of care for the poor. It provides a rationale for abortion and euthanasia. It supports the idea of a god as a blind watchmaker, if he exists. If evolution can convince us to deny that God created everything good, and that Adam and Eve (man) were not originally responsible for sin, then Satan will be happy when people begin to think that really god is to blame for sin, not us, and that it is just and right that Jesus as god died for his own sin, and is absurd that he could pay for ours.
I am not quite so pessimistic as I sometimes sound, so I trust God will use all of this for his honor and glory. But we must not lose sight of the antithesis, of the battleground for the souls of men. People of the church have too blithely assumed that Satan is no longer active, and that our sinful nature is barely relevant. This sinful nature inclines human beings to look for an origin and solution outside of God. This is the present day struggle, which is not a new struggle. Jesus warned about all those who came to God in the last day saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophecy in your name, didn’t we cast out demons, didn’t we heal the sick” and God says to them, get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” “Only the one who does the will of the Father in heaven will enter”. This warning is always in my mind.
Roger, you are very close to understanding the truth. The central teaching of Jesus as propitiation you have stated well, but then seem to say that Jesus was just a good teacher. When I mention God, or Jesus, since they are the same, it is only for aspect or emphasis, not for distinction. As for works, its not that they count for nothing at all. They have their rewards as Jesus often said. But they do count for nothing in terms of eliminating guilt. The thief on the cross was saved in spite of not having an opportunity to do any works after his faith, and after his repentance. His guilt was not removed by his own doing, but only by God's grace, by the grace of Jesus Christ. If works were required, he could not have been saved.
Edwin, you suggest that God brought the world into its present physical condition thru evolutionary processes. This appears to be a faith statement on your part. Since you don't say that your idea of evolution is different than the general theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin, Dawkins, et.al., then it is necessary that you have an explanation for how and why God is in control of this process. Evolution was promoted both before and after Darwin as an explanation that could eliminate God in the equation; it was not promoted as a way of honoring God. So you would need to explain how it honors God, and how it is indicated by scripture, and how biology/geology/paleontology proves it, and how this demonstrates God. What evidence do you have for an endpoint? How do you know that human beings are the endpoint... according to the theory, they could just as well be an intermediate inferior step towards the progression of something better. In a way, this is what Hitler proposed in terms of racial superiority, that one race could be superior to another. Why was he wrong?
So, if God is playing a role... then what role is God playing? Is your idea of this role consistent with who God is, how he has revealed himself in scripture? When we think of the natural laws of physics, mathematics, such as gravity and consistency of numbers and objects, we see God as a God of order, of beauty, symmetry. Evolutionary theory would see God as a God of disorder, randomness, accidents, death and destruction and survival. If this is how God created, then what does the world need to be renewed from? What does it need to be saved from?
I note that you did not address the fact that scientific evidence/knowledge is indicating less and less support for evolution over time, as I noted in the example of human and chimp genome dissimilarities. What would it take for you to lose your faith in evolution?
In a court of law, there are usually experts on both sides. This is also true in this case. Just as you and Edwin, two non-experts, have decided to follow a certain path without any knowledge to back it up, so even scientists often do the same. The geologists follow the path of the paleontologists, and paleontologists use an apparent "expert" opinion by a geneticist, while the geneticist follows a statement or two from a fossil expert. In the meantime, their own interpretations are colored by their assumptions, the pre-conceived notions about what is the most likely interpretation. For that reason, supposed experts in fossils have made huge mistakes of interpretation of various fossils, such as calling a tooth a neanderthal tooth and falsely building a whole theory around it, when in fact it was a pig's tooth, as confirmed by an anatomist. When you say you will trust the experts, I say you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know who the experts are, nor do you know if indeed they are truly experts, nor do you distinguish in what they are expert at. Even experts make mistakes, as identified by other experts. Experts are not infallible, and this has been shown over and over again in the field of evolutionary interpretation.
Every PhD is considered an expert legally. Yet they can disagree with each other, and often do. This book called "Evolution's Achilles Heels" is written by nine experts, nine PhDs, in subjects ranging from paleontology to geology, to mechanical engineering, to physical chemistry, to nuclear physics, to genetics. They point out the fatal flaws for evolution in a reasonable, comprehensive, understandable way. They are able to do this because they are not locked into the prevailing evolutionary mindset, although most of them were evolutionists at one time.
Throughout evolutionary science, expert opinions have changed, vacillated, and repented. Few evolutionists still follow more than half of Darwin's conclusions, because they have been proved false. Many previous assumptions about sediment being laid down by wind, are changing into the idea that sediments were laid down by water, not wind. Evolutionist assumptions about uniformitarianism are changing into a recognition of the necessity for catastrophism which is dramatically different than earlier "expert" assumptions. So, you have a choice: you can follow the wrong experts, or the right experts. Or you can realize that you should follow the truth, rather than people. (The blind leading the blind... lemmings falling off a cliff... if everyone jumps off a bridge, will you?.... etc., etc.)
The gospel message is the good news of salvation, Christ coming in our place to die for our sins thru faith in Him. The story of that gospel takes many forms, and can be very extensive, and it never quite ends as it lives in our lives. The entire scripture is the story of that gospel, how it came to be, how it was necessary, how it was fulfilled. But without the central theme (salvation) of the gospel, the story loses focus and perspective. That's why every "complete" sermon ought to include a statement of the gospel message, as it tells an aspect of the gospel story.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. Psalm 14. ...All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 53 - The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.... Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Mark 10 - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
So you see, Roger, Paul did not dream up total depravity. He had read the Psalms of David (the righteous king), and knew the words of Jesus.
But I agree that being negative about everything is .. well. its negative. Still you are right, that you cannot appreciate Christ, and cannot appreciate the gospel, and God's goodness, unless you realize how far we are from what God made us to be.
Scripture seems to indicate it will get worse before it gets better. It will get worse before the end. But yet, God's grace will remain. Paul and Silas were singing songs of praise to God when they were in prison. It seemed quite bad for them... but then, not quite.
I'm wondering what religion you actually follow, Roger. It seems you know a lot about christianity, and about reformed theology, and yet don't accept it. You have hinted that Jesus is not God, that he is just a good teacher to follow, and that scripture contradicts itself, especially Paul's epistles probably shouldn't be scripture. So I'm curious. Or did I get you wrong?
Last night I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff (Bible Answer Man broadcast) on the radio, and I found it interesting that he became a Christian at the age of 29 by examining the evidence for creation science. When he realized the poverty of evolutionary thought, then the message of scripture made more sense to him.
Another Christian apologist, Ravi Zacharias, also is quite strong in his opposition to evolution. Born in India, he was an atheist until the age of 17, when he became a Christian after attempting suicide. He is considered by some to be the leading Christian apologist of this time, and has been preaching internationally since 1977, as well as speaking at universities, colleges, and other groups of young adults. A very sharp guy.
And then, as I mentioned previously, the speaker Peter Sparrow, who was convinced by anti-evolutionary evidence that maybe God was real after all, and became a Christian at the age of 19.
Don't underestimate the power of apologetics as a tool for witness.
An interesting side note: Just this morning I was reading Hebrews 10 and into 11. It seems God led me to a new awareness of a relevant passage in Hebrews 11: 3. "By faith we understand that the universe (the worlds, the entire universe) was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." NKJ, NIV, NLT all have the same general translation. By faith we understand that what is seen of the universe was not made from what can be seen.
And verse 4: "...Abel gave a more acceptable sacrifice... although Abel is long dead..." It does appear that Abel actually lived, or he could not have died. His faith was an example to us. Hmm.
Edwin, I agree God's work progresses. I am just reading Revelations now, and it is fascinating (and a bit confusing). Everytime I read it I see it differently. I also agree that it is entirely plausible that as people become Christians, they influence society for the good. I'm not sure that I would equate technology with social progress, but nevertheless, technology is fascinating and can certainly be used for good. But it can also be used for evil, and often it has. We all know that nuclear fission can make bombs or useable energy. Cars can save lives, or destroy lives. Art can glorify God, or mock God.
Man was created in God's image. "Let us create man in our image" Man was created to rule over every creature on earth. Plants were given to mankind and to the animals for food. It happened right then and there. No progression necessary. It doesn't say man would rule over some of the animals at first and slowly more and more animals. It doesn't say that man was an animal but would rise above the rest. It's kind of important as to what it doesn't say, don't you think?
Then, Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. Man had already achieved everything he needed. But then he disobeyed God, and now he knows good and evil. So now he cannot live forever. Unless he obeys God in repentance... then living forever with God is a promise. With God, promise made; promise kept.
So, should I be concentrating on the advances "we" human beings have made? Well, I do see some progress which I appreciate. I like most of the modern conveniences. I like being warm in winter, having enough food on the table, and a warm soft bed to sleep in. I like not having to work 16 hours a day, six days a week. I like the reduction of slavery. I like what scientific research has done for food production, soil conservation, clean drinking water, clean air emission reductions. Its great. But I'm concerned that we will take the credit, rather than giving thanks to God. That our progress will be like the wheat in the barn of the farmer in Jesus parable. The farmer built his barns, took his pride, and God took his life.
In this century more people have died in wars and starvation and genocide than any other century that we are aware of. Maybe just because there are more people. So while I see technological progress, and while I do see some blessings of God on those nations that honor God, I do not see an evolutionary progress as a whole. In God-fearing nations, we are finding fewer people attending church and fewer people claiming to be Christian than in past decades and centuries. Materialism and hedonism often replaces worship. If our "progress" is a result of God working in us, in our hearts, then we might wonder what the apparent spiritual decline might portend for the future of this "progress".
It would seem to me that putting your trust in evolutionary progress is trusting in a false god. Rather, Isaiah 65, I peter 3, and Revelations 21 talk about a new heaven and new earth. This does not appear to be a gradual progression or improvement of the old.
There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." "...Rev 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."
With consideration for Jolanda's comment that one should not dominate a discussion... which I appreciate, I can only say that Edwin Walhout dominated the page of the Banner with his article, and comments, objections, etc. did not have the same space or weight permitted. His article made some of my children question the integrity and faith of the crc, and others were also affected similarly. So I think it is legitimate to respond to every concern and question and "truth statement" made. I certainly don't mind if someone else responds instead of me, but I hope I will be forgiven for filling in the gap in the meanwhile.
I have been reading the book, "Evolution's Achilles Heels" by the 9 PhD scientists. It's somewhat technical and difficult, although yet written in a way that the points can be understood. I've finished the first of 8 chapters, which is a chapter on Natural Selection by Dr. Donald Batten. What is the point of this chapter in a nutshell? Well, creationists also accept natural selection. But they believe that natural selection works against evolution, not for it. It is a conserving action, weeding out harmful mutations. It does not create additional genetic information, but generally reduces the genetic variability within a species or a kind. Haldane's dilemna of population genetics indicates that in 10 million years with a fixed beneficial mutation rate of one per generation, under idealized and unrealistic conditions, the maximum amount of the human genome that could be generated is only 0.02%. Under realistic assumptions, the amount would be much, much lower. However, the genetic difference from the supposed common ancestor is at least 5%, and probably 12%, so much more time would be required to generate the genome, even if the genome was somewhere 50% similar to ape and 50% similar to human. At a 5% difference, it would take 250 times longer under idealized conditions. And this is only under the assumption that new genetic information could actually be generated, which does not appear to be the case, since observed mutations are almost always deleterious, or even when beneficial, are caused by a loss of information, or a loss of a genetic inhibitor, or activation of an inhibitor, and not by actual increase in new genetic material.
In the Second chapter, "Genetics and DNA", Dr. Carter points out that evolutionists assumed 97% of human DNA was junk DNA, because of their presuppositions. This was found to be in error, and in fact every indication is that almost every part of the DNA plays a role and function. Most genes in the individual DNA often play a dual or triple regulatory function, so that the 23,000 genes in the human genome can produce 100,000 proteins. The ENCODE project, which spent $3 billion to map the 3 billion letters in the human genome found out all sorts of things that make it more unlikely that evolutionary processes could have ever resulted in the development of new species from different species in a macro sort of sense.
God's creation is much more complicated and complex than we have thought in the past, which makes it less and less likely that undirected macro-evolution could be the mechanism for generating the creation we see today.
Roger, it is easy to say, "theistic evolution". It is easy to think that solves the problem. But it is meaningless. Timelines for evolution are not based on theistic evolution. They are based on randomness. Based on no interference, and on no intelligent design, but only mere accident. This causes interpretations that man and dinosaurs could not live together, or that animals invisible in the geologic record did not exist (when we know they did). We know that some dinosaur fossil bones have been found with organic cells in them, but this makes no sense for evolution old age. Whether it is theistic or not, you still must have evidence for evolution, and so far, the lack of intermediary fossils is astounding. Without them, you do not have evolution. If God creates one species from another simply by speaking, or even by rearranging genomes and adding additional genomic information so that a whole bunch of evolutionary steps can be avoided, well, then you do not have evolution. You have something else. So if you say, "theistic evolution" you should have something to say about what that is. Otherwise you are just saying abracadabra, and hoping the controversy goes away.
You are right, if evolution is theistic without randomness playing a role, then it is not me, but evolutionists, that will have an argument with you. Well, partly right. Jonathan Sarfati (PhD in Physical Chemistry) creationist has written a book called, "Refuting Compromise" in which he deals with theistic evolution as a compromise. I have not yet read this book so I can only imagine his arguments. His arguments will deal primarily with the scientific side. Based on his other books, his logic will be impeccable.
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I'm sorry, Edwin, but to me it seems like you are only listening to about half or less of what is being discussed. I asked for examples of what science has discovered that indicates this "development" that you keep mentioning, but have not yet seen anyone provide examples. To what data are you referring? Part of what I have been mentioning is that the way data is interpreted by evolutionists may not be correct, so if it is not correct in interpretation, then even though it is part of God's revelation in nature, we cannot with certainty understand development the way that evolutionists understand development. Furthermore, there is an element of social regression in evolutionary faith, as I illustrated in my last post above.
Who is honest about the data of modern science? If we see DNA degradation in nature, if we see the mutation rates increasing cumulatively to the point that in a certain number of centuries it will no longer be possible for human beings to survive under the deleterious mutations, due to all the genetic defects, then would you still see progress or development? There is no observable evidence that one species or kind has evolved into another, no matter how many speculations have abounded. So what evidence do we have for this evolutionary development?
Scripture indicates that when God created things, it was good. It was later, through man's disobedience that things were not so good anymore. This to me seems somewhat anti-evolutionary. So whether you treat Genesis as symbolic or not, this is the message. And this is also what we see in creation itself, even though man works more and more to design and develop things which cope with or counteract the degradation we see in nature itself. God does institute a process of change in our relationship to him, yes. But this is the exact opposite of evolution. It is a dramatic, "catastrophic" event of being born again like the apostle Paul, or the repentance of the apostle Peter, or the struggle of the Reformation. It is the acknowledgement of God in the constitutions of the new nations of USA and Canada. But it is subject again to the obedience or disobedience of the people of earth. And it is counter to the philosophy of evolution.
At the time of Noah, people were so disobedient that God sent a flood to destroy them. You would think after that, that no one would disobey God, that all would fervently worship and be grateful. But not long after, man worshipped himself again, and many worshipped other Gods. Even though Christianity has spread and grown in the world today, how many north americans have abandoned faith and obedience? How does it compare to how non-christians have spread and grown in the world today? Is Islam part of the "development" of which you speak? How do you reference these things in your ideology of "development"?
When you say there can hardly be any valid objection to recognizing... you are begging the question. In fact, there are many valid objections, both to the interpretation of scientific data, and to the philosophical underpinnings for evolution and/or "development". If you say there cannot be objections, when there are objections, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the objections are not valid, and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the biological and evolutionary development. It does not help anyone simply to restate your position.
I had thought we were done, Edwin. And we are done. Unless we can leave the unproven generalities and get to specifics, it is no use pursuing an esoteric argument on vague philosophical generalities.
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Edwin, thanks for your response.
Yes, we have some things in common, ie., scriptural authority, God creating the universe. However, the extent of scriptural authority, the way we understand scripture, and the way God created the universe and people is important also. It is interesting that you as a non-scientist, and me as one who has a B.A. in philosophy and English, as well as a B.Sc. in Agricultural science, should have somewhat opposing perspectives on the validity of evolutionary science, as well as on how to understand literature (the Bible).
Is it important to some degree to have a fall-back position that if evolution were incontrovertibly true in every aspect (mud to man, goo-to-you, microbes to microbiologist) then how would scripture be still relevant. Is that what you are proposing? An insurance policy?
Back to your comments. Yes you are convinced of evolutionary theory in its totality, in spite of your stated lack of expertise; and I am convinced there is a lack of evidence for macro evolution, even though possibly the actual material of the universe might possibly be older than 10,000 yrs. Although, I think our minds cannot totally wrap around the possibility of time change, accelerated or decelerating expansion of the universe, etc. Cases of radio carbon dating not able to deal with recent volcano formation accurately remains unexplained. Cases of C14 material imbedded in much older(supposed) rock, remains unexplained. Macro evolution as far as I can tell is based on speculation, on the basis of faith in the theory, on only one interpretation, and not on actual fossil evidence. Documented fraud and error has been perpetrated by the evolutionary theory both in scientific papers and in classroom textbooks, particularly for the more well known assumptions of evolutionary theory, and particularly when it comes to theorizing on descent or evolution of humans.
But, you remain convinced that evolutionary theory is inviolable, so lets consider the typology problem. You suggest that even if Adam did not exist, people still sinned against God. However, you have not provided a mechanism for their sin. Why have they sinned? Why are they disobedient? Evolution theory suggests that there is no moral or ethical element in man’s development. Evolution is a process of death, competition, destruction, elimination of the less able, of survival and selection of species and individuals. Those are the morals of evolution. Why would God counter his own creation process through his commands to people. Or, why would God use a creation process so different from His own stated ideals for holiness, purity, kindness? Even Cain’s murder of Abel would merely be a natural evolutionary act.
If Eden is merely part of the typology, how does it relate? How could Eden then be anything other than the competitive, destructive, death dealing evolutionary process? What is the relevance in the typology of the fall into sin creating death? Doesn’t that make the typology entirely absurd? As a mere typology without substance, it would be seen to be absurd in the context of the evolutionary theory. The question would be asked: repent from what? From my evolutionary instincts and process?
The difference between Adam, and Christian in “Pilgrim’s Progress” is that “Christian” is a reflection of the redeemed man (not Everyman), not the presumed ancestor or progenitor of everyman’s sinful nature. Furthermore, if Adam did not exist, and if our sinful nature is merely our evolutionary process in action, then the validity of Pilgrim’s Progress will also be questioned. The significance of the creation story perhaps lies as much in whether God really did create everything good or not, or what God’s definition of “good” really is. Or in fact, whether God really spoke to man at all, or whether man created God rather than God creating man.
I find your identification of “new” and “old” somewhat limited, or perhaps lacking in depth. We often say “new” in generic comprehensive terms without identifying what is old and what is new. Ecclesiastes says there is nothing new under the sun. Yet it seems new to us. Hebrews 8-10 talks about the old and new covenenant but concentrates specifically on temple, worship, and sacrifices in particular. But it maintains that in understanding this new covenant, he who continues to sin places himself outside of this new covenant, which sounds suspiciously like the old covenant, doesn’t it. In other words, the old and the new covenant are different, yet inseparable.
So the Christians during the reformation brought new insights which were actually a return to old insights and precepts. Having just read the first nine chapters or books of Augustine’s confessions, it became obvious to all of us in this study group, that Augustine’s experiences of 300 AD were very similar to our own in 2014. New information does lead to new insights, true, but we should be very cautious about generalizations which are often untrue in specific cases.
On the science side, I would suggest that you not idolize the scientific community. They are human beings like everyone else, like mechanics, doctors, engineers. They do a lot of good stuff, but they make mistakes. Doctors bleeding people in order to cure illness. Lacking an understanding of bacteria, viruses. Slowly finding ways to treat AIDS but not cure it. Not yet anyway.
Scientists can work with things they can experiment with. But going back in time? Not so simple. Lots of assumptions. They may well find they were wrong on several significant points. I am finding too many problems with their assumptions about layering of sediment, placement of fossils, age of volcanic rocks, undocumented leaps of evolutionary progress.
I am only 60 years old, so I have not yet seen everything. One thing I have seen is that there are more scientific problems with evolution today than there were in the past. Another thing I have also seen is that for many, evolution is a religion or faith, held to most strongly by those who have the least information on it. So that makes me doubly cautious, something like Augustine’s eventual suspicion of the Manichees who lacked knowledge of the basics.
God will lead and teach us, but not all will be willing to accept His teaching until forced to at the last day. Evolution is the primary present day tool to lead us philosophically and morally away from God. On its own, it justifies our unlimited pursuit of money, superiority, material possessions, power, aggressive wars, lack of care for the poor. It provides a rationale for abortion and euthanasia. It supports the idea of a god as a blind watchmaker, if he exists. If evolution can convince us to deny that God created everything good, and that Adam and Eve (man) were not originally responsible for sin, then Satan will be happy when people begin to think that really god is to blame for sin, not us, and that it is just and right that Jesus as god died for his own sin, and is absurd that he could pay for ours.
I am not quite so pessimistic as I sometimes sound, so I trust God will use all of this for his honor and glory. But we must not lose sight of the antithesis, of the battleground for the souls of men. People of the church have too blithely assumed that Satan is no longer active, and that our sinful nature is barely relevant. This sinful nature inclines human beings to look for an origin and solution outside of God. This is the present day struggle, which is not a new struggle. Jesus warned about all those who came to God in the last day saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophecy in your name, didn’t we cast out demons, didn’t we heal the sick” and God says to them, get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” “Only the one who does the will of the Father in heaven will enter”. This warning is always in my mind.
John
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Roger, you are very close to understanding the truth. The central teaching of Jesus as propitiation you have stated well, but then seem to say that Jesus was just a good teacher. When I mention God, or Jesus, since they are the same, it is only for aspect or emphasis, not for distinction. As for works, its not that they count for nothing at all. They have their rewards as Jesus often said. But they do count for nothing in terms of eliminating guilt. The thief on the cross was saved in spite of not having an opportunity to do any works after his faith, and after his repentance. His guilt was not removed by his own doing, but only by God's grace, by the grace of Jesus Christ. If works were required, he could not have been saved.
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Edwin, you suggest that God brought the world into its present physical condition thru evolutionary processes. This appears to be a faith statement on your part. Since you don't say that your idea of evolution is different than the general theory of evolution as proposed by Darwin, Dawkins, et.al., then it is necessary that you have an explanation for how and why God is in control of this process. Evolution was promoted both before and after Darwin as an explanation that could eliminate God in the equation; it was not promoted as a way of honoring God. So you would need to explain how it honors God, and how it is indicated by scripture, and how biology/geology/paleontology proves it, and how this demonstrates God. What evidence do you have for an endpoint? How do you know that human beings are the endpoint... according to the theory, they could just as well be an intermediate inferior step towards the progression of something better. In a way, this is what Hitler proposed in terms of racial superiority, that one race could be superior to another. Why was he wrong?
So, if God is playing a role... then what role is God playing? Is your idea of this role consistent with who God is, how he has revealed himself in scripture? When we think of the natural laws of physics, mathematics, such as gravity and consistency of numbers and objects, we see God as a God of order, of beauty, symmetry. Evolutionary theory would see God as a God of disorder, randomness, accidents, death and destruction and survival. If this is how God created, then what does the world need to be renewed from? What does it need to be saved from?
I note that you did not address the fact that scientific evidence/knowledge is indicating less and less support for evolution over time, as I noted in the example of human and chimp genome dissimilarities. What would it take for you to lose your faith in evolution?
John
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In a court of law, there are usually experts on both sides. This is also true in this case. Just as you and Edwin, two non-experts, have decided to follow a certain path without any knowledge to back it up, so even scientists often do the same. The geologists follow the path of the paleontologists, and paleontologists use an apparent "expert" opinion by a geneticist, while the geneticist follows a statement or two from a fossil expert. In the meantime, their own interpretations are colored by their assumptions, the pre-conceived notions about what is the most likely interpretation. For that reason, supposed experts in fossils have made huge mistakes of interpretation of various fossils, such as calling a tooth a neanderthal tooth and falsely building a whole theory around it, when in fact it was a pig's tooth, as confirmed by an anatomist. When you say you will trust the experts, I say you don't know what you are talking about. You don't know who the experts are, nor do you know if indeed they are truly experts, nor do you distinguish in what they are expert at. Even experts make mistakes, as identified by other experts. Experts are not infallible, and this has been shown over and over again in the field of evolutionary interpretation.
Every PhD is considered an expert legally. Yet they can disagree with each other, and often do. This book called "Evolution's Achilles Heels" is written by nine experts, nine PhDs, in subjects ranging from paleontology to geology, to mechanical engineering, to physical chemistry, to nuclear physics, to genetics. They point out the fatal flaws for evolution in a reasonable, comprehensive, understandable way. They are able to do this because they are not locked into the prevailing evolutionary mindset, although most of them were evolutionists at one time.
Throughout evolutionary science, expert opinions have changed, vacillated, and repented. Few evolutionists still follow more than half of Darwin's conclusions, because they have been proved false. Many previous assumptions about sediment being laid down by wind, are changing into the idea that sediments were laid down by water, not wind. Evolutionist assumptions about uniformitarianism are changing into a recognition of the necessity for catastrophism which is dramatically different than earlier "expert" assumptions. So, you have a choice: you can follow the wrong experts, or the right experts. Or you can realize that you should follow the truth, rather than people. (The blind leading the blind... lemmings falling off a cliff... if everyone jumps off a bridge, will you?.... etc., etc.)
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The gospel message is the good news of salvation, Christ coming in our place to die for our sins thru faith in Him. The story of that gospel takes many forms, and can be very extensive, and it never quite ends as it lives in our lives. The entire scripture is the story of that gospel, how it came to be, how it was necessary, how it was fulfilled. But without the central theme (salvation) of the gospel, the story loses focus and perspective. That's why every "complete" sermon ought to include a statement of the gospel message, as it tells an aspect of the gospel story.
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The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. Psalm 14. ...All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalm 53 - The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.... Everyone has turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Mark 10 - “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
So you see, Roger, Paul did not dream up total depravity. He had read the Psalms of David (the righteous king), and knew the words of Jesus.
But I agree that being negative about everything is .. well. its negative. Still you are right, that you cannot appreciate Christ, and cannot appreciate the gospel, and God's goodness, unless you realize how far we are from what God made us to be.
Scripture seems to indicate it will get worse before it gets better. It will get worse before the end. But yet, God's grace will remain. Paul and Silas were singing songs of praise to God when they were in prison. It seemed quite bad for them... but then, not quite.
I'm wondering what religion you actually follow, Roger. It seems you know a lot about christianity, and about reformed theology, and yet don't accept it. You have hinted that Jesus is not God, that he is just a good teacher to follow, and that scripture contradicts itself, especially Paul's epistles probably shouldn't be scripture. So I'm curious. Or did I get you wrong?
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Last night I was listening to Hank Hanegraaff (Bible Answer Man broadcast) on the radio, and I found it interesting that he became a Christian at the age of 29 by examining the evidence for creation science. When he realized the poverty of evolutionary thought, then the message of scripture made more sense to him.
Another Christian apologist, Ravi Zacharias, also is quite strong in his opposition to evolution. Born in India, he was an atheist until the age of 17, when he became a Christian after attempting suicide. He is considered by some to be the leading Christian apologist of this time, and has been preaching internationally since 1977, as well as speaking at universities, colleges, and other groups of young adults. A very sharp guy.
And then, as I mentioned previously, the speaker Peter Sparrow, who was convinced by anti-evolutionary evidence that maybe God was real after all, and became a Christian at the age of 19.
Don't underestimate the power of apologetics as a tool for witness.
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An interesting side note: Just this morning I was reading Hebrews 10 and into 11. It seems God led me to a new awareness of a relevant passage in Hebrews 11: 3. "By faith we understand that the universe (the worlds, the entire universe) was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." NKJ, NIV, NLT all have the same general translation. By faith we understand that what is seen of the universe was not made from what can be seen.
And verse 4: "...Abel gave a more acceptable sacrifice... although Abel is long dead..." It does appear that Abel actually lived, or he could not have died. His faith was an example to us. Hmm.
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Edwin, I agree God's work progresses. I am just reading Revelations now, and it is fascinating (and a bit confusing). Everytime I read it I see it differently. I also agree that it is entirely plausible that as people become Christians, they influence society for the good. I'm not sure that I would equate technology with social progress, but nevertheless, technology is fascinating and can certainly be used for good. But it can also be used for evil, and often it has. We all know that nuclear fission can make bombs or useable energy. Cars can save lives, or destroy lives. Art can glorify God, or mock God.
Man was created in God's image. "Let us create man in our image" Man was created to rule over every creature on earth. Plants were given to mankind and to the animals for food. It happened right then and there. No progression necessary. It doesn't say man would rule over some of the animals at first and slowly more and more animals. It doesn't say that man was an animal but would rise above the rest. It's kind of important as to what it doesn't say, don't you think?
Then, Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. Man had already achieved everything he needed. But then he disobeyed God, and now he knows good and evil. So now he cannot live forever. Unless he obeys God in repentance... then living forever with God is a promise. With God, promise made; promise kept.
So, should I be concentrating on the advances "we" human beings have made? Well, I do see some progress which I appreciate. I like most of the modern conveniences. I like being warm in winter, having enough food on the table, and a warm soft bed to sleep in. I like not having to work 16 hours a day, six days a week. I like the reduction of slavery. I like what scientific research has done for food production, soil conservation, clean drinking water, clean air emission reductions. Its great. But I'm concerned that we will take the credit, rather than giving thanks to God. That our progress will be like the wheat in the barn of the farmer in Jesus parable. The farmer built his barns, took his pride, and God took his life.
In this century more people have died in wars and starvation and genocide than any other century that we are aware of. Maybe just because there are more people. So while I see technological progress, and while I do see some blessings of God on those nations that honor God, I do not see an evolutionary progress as a whole. In God-fearing nations, we are finding fewer people attending church and fewer people claiming to be Christian than in past decades and centuries. Materialism and hedonism often replaces worship. If our "progress" is a result of God working in us, in our hearts, then we might wonder what the apparent spiritual decline might portend for the future of this "progress".
It would seem to me that putting your trust in evolutionary progress is trusting in a false god. Rather, Isaiah 65, I peter 3, and Revelations 21 talk about a new heaven and new earth. This does not appear to be a gradual progression or improvement of the old.
There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." "...Rev 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light."
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With consideration for Jolanda's comment that one should not dominate a discussion... which I appreciate, I can only say that Edwin Walhout dominated the page of the Banner with his article, and comments, objections, etc. did not have the same space or weight permitted. His article made some of my children question the integrity and faith of the crc, and others were also affected similarly. So I think it is legitimate to respond to every concern and question and "truth statement" made. I certainly don't mind if someone else responds instead of me, but I hope I will be forgiven for filling in the gap in the meanwhile.
I have been reading the book, "Evolution's Achilles Heels" by the 9 PhD scientists. It's somewhat technical and difficult, although yet written in a way that the points can be understood. I've finished the first of 8 chapters, which is a chapter on Natural Selection by Dr. Donald Batten. What is the point of this chapter in a nutshell? Well, creationists also accept natural selection. But they believe that natural selection works against evolution, not for it. It is a conserving action, weeding out harmful mutations. It does not create additional genetic information, but generally reduces the genetic variability within a species or a kind. Haldane's dilemna of population genetics indicates that in 10 million years with a fixed beneficial mutation rate of one per generation, under idealized and unrealistic conditions, the maximum amount of the human genome that could be generated is only 0.02%. Under realistic assumptions, the amount would be much, much lower. However, the genetic difference from the supposed common ancestor is at least 5%, and probably 12%, so much more time would be required to generate the genome, even if the genome was somewhere 50% similar to ape and 50% similar to human. At a 5% difference, it would take 250 times longer under idealized conditions. And this is only under the assumption that new genetic information could actually be generated, which does not appear to be the case, since observed mutations are almost always deleterious, or even when beneficial, are caused by a loss of information, or a loss of a genetic inhibitor, or activation of an inhibitor, and not by actual increase in new genetic material.
In the Second chapter, "Genetics and DNA", Dr. Carter points out that evolutionists assumed 97% of human DNA was junk DNA, because of their presuppositions. This was found to be in error, and in fact every indication is that almost every part of the DNA plays a role and function. Most genes in the individual DNA often play a dual or triple regulatory function, so that the 23,000 genes in the human genome can produce 100,000 proteins. The ENCODE project, which spent $3 billion to map the 3 billion letters in the human genome found out all sorts of things that make it more unlikely that evolutionary processes could have ever resulted in the development of new species from different species in a macro sort of sense.
God's creation is much more complicated and complex than we have thought in the past, which makes it less and less likely that undirected macro-evolution could be the mechanism for generating the creation we see today.
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Roger, it is easy to say, "theistic evolution". It is easy to think that solves the problem. But it is meaningless. Timelines for evolution are not based on theistic evolution. They are based on randomness. Based on no interference, and on no intelligent design, but only mere accident. This causes interpretations that man and dinosaurs could not live together, or that animals invisible in the geologic record did not exist (when we know they did). We know that some dinosaur fossil bones have been found with organic cells in them, but this makes no sense for evolution old age. Whether it is theistic or not, you still must have evidence for evolution, and so far, the lack of intermediary fossils is astounding. Without them, you do not have evolution. If God creates one species from another simply by speaking, or even by rearranging genomes and adding additional genomic information so that a whole bunch of evolutionary steps can be avoided, well, then you do not have evolution. You have something else. So if you say, "theistic evolution" you should have something to say about what that is. Otherwise you are just saying abracadabra, and hoping the controversy goes away.
You are right, if evolution is theistic without randomness playing a role, then it is not me, but evolutionists, that will have an argument with you. Well, partly right. Jonathan Sarfati (PhD in Physical Chemistry) creationist has written a book called, "Refuting Compromise" in which he deals with theistic evolution as a compromise. I have not yet read this book so I can only imagine his arguments. His arguments will deal primarily with the scientific side. Based on his other books, his logic will be impeccable.