Yes, maybe we should see injustice where we don't see it now. But how does speaking in generalities help? Will you be more likely to help someone because they are unjustly treated than simply because they have a need? Will you adopt an orphan quicker because they are unjustly an orphan, than because they are an orphan who has a need? Will you adopt an orphan due to a tsunami less quickly than an orphan whose mother simply abandoned her? Will you adopt a handicapped orphan quicker because no one else will, than a healthy whole child for whom adoptive parents are competing?
If a person cannot get a job because they have no skills, is that unjust? Do you then help them to get some skills, or just complain about injustice? or try to create work for them? or give them some food? or ignore them because there is no injustice?
In order to make sense of injustice, you need to be specific, don't you think?
Julia, interesting comment on Aristotle's moral compass. It seems that in general, he equates virtue with moderation. Eg. Don't be too courageous, but don't be too afraid. or... don't be too stingy, but not too generous either. While this often seems to be common sense, it is not the kind of standard we want to apply to Christian living, it seems to me. It is a bit arbitrary... and ends up saying something like, have faith, but not too much faith. Pray some, but don't pray too much.
I believe that common sense and balance does play a role, but that doesn't mean that somehow using common sense is more virtuous than stepping out in faith. Jesus command to the rich man to sell all he had and follow HIm might seem to lead to the vice of carelessness by worldly and aristotelian standards, but Jesus' standards are different. For Jesus, fishing for men instead of for fish, is not as extreme as many might think. Caring for and sharing with the poor is okay, no matter how extreme. Claiming all the world (not just Sundays) for Christ is the right kind of extreme.
I wonder if the first type of illness we ought to be thinking of is spiritual illness. Spiritual illness would be a misunderstanding of who God is, or a denial of God, or lack of a confident relationship with God. It is this type of illness that often leads to a moral quagmire, sometimes moral illness, since there is no real reference point for truth and behaviour outside of oneself and thus might lead to all kinds of immoral behaviour. This is a situation where there is no immunity or resistance anymore to the immoral behaviour which is displayed by others on tv or internet or magazines or conversation.
I would think spiritual illness can also lead to some types of mental illness, once that realization of a lack of reference point, and a lack of purpose, a lack of real relationship sinks in. This can be a common cause of depression and anger and unhappiness, both for non-christians, but also sometimes for christians.
Moral illness leads directly to sin, and because we cannot always read the heart, we must deal with the sin more than with the moral illness that might cause us to sin. But moral illness can be catching, even for Christians. It helps if we put a quarantine on ourselves or on those who are morally ill, so that it will not infect us. On the other hand, spiritual health can heal the heart, will help us to resist, and our relationship with God will have an impact on how we live.
Presumably, most seminary graduates would have learned most of their world view perspectives and "every square inch belongs to God" before they attended seminary. Hopefully they would have attended Christian world-view colleges.
Elly, your story is great, with the help of people to get a quadriplegic on a hiking trip. But if you google Camrose Alberta for a 3D view, you will not see any mountains at all anywhere from Camrose. An 8000 foot mountain is pretty high, and Camrose is still in the prairie part of Alberta. Should the location have been Canmore perhaps?
These stories are great! I am reminded of a girl, Colleen Buitendyk, who has been in a wheelchair all her life with cerebral palsy, who used to enjoy having a two wheel cart attached to her powered wheel chair and pulling little kids behind her in it, across the grass and the gravel parking area at our place. Or her independance in tearing across the playing field at the local Bible Camp.
I am reminded of a nephew in a wheel chair with mental capacity issues, who attended his sister's wedding. When the minister asked her if she would take "this man to be her husband", her younger brother yelled out, "No!" .... and there were some chuckles.... and no one was upset.... and the wedding went on....
Jolanda, I appreciate what you've said here. It is really important for the teachers to capture the vision. This helps them to go beyond just going through the motions, to realizing that we are helping our children to put on the full armor of God, in an eternal life and death situation.
Verlyn, since you appear to enjoy the Greek, could you verify for me (and others) the apparent imperative in the Lord's Prayer for the statements which are called the first, second, and third requests? It would almost seem possible that these three requests are praises to God as well. ie. "hallowed be Your Name" or Hallowed is Your Name"....
Commissioned pastor sounds okay to me. All pastors are commissioned essentially, after all.
I think that the problem we have with "official" roles, and the unofficial giftings, is that they do not always correspond exactly to each other. So we have pastors who are evangelists, and apostles who are teachers, and commissioned pastors who are preachers. What does this all mean then? What is it that we are really getting hung up on? Where do the elders and deacons fit in to all of this? Why is it that the primary mention of a particular office has to do with offices of elder and deacon, and not with qualifications of teachers and pastors(commissioned or otherwise)?
I once attended a service at a church in Florida, where they did not have official pastors or ministers as such, but only elders, who functioned as preachers and pastors.
How can we separate our desire for education and a learned approach to preaching and teaching and pastoral care, from our innate human desire for categories, titles, and earthly honor? How can we honor theological learning and education appropriately, without honoring them above the necessary respect due to the gifting of the spirit within the heart of a person. How do we honor a particular office of authority, without supposing that formal education is sufficient to grant that authority?
The song "Indescribable", written by Chris Tomlin, available on the internet to read and/or listen to. Untameable is kind of the opposite of "best buddy"... Untameable is also the opposite of treating God like a pet. It's theopposite of "tameable".
To elaborate a wee bit more.... when someone says that untameable infers that it should be tameable, I think we are getting words and inferences mixed up. Untameable does not infer that it should be tameable. The word "Untamed" might infer that, or might suggest that taming is still possible. "Untameable" is different than untamed, and means that no matter how much you might try, no matter what the circumstances, God (or some animals or some people) are not controllable by others. It says nothing at all about whether they "should" be controllable.
As people, we often think or act as if God follows our lead. If we pray the right prayers, sing the right songs, read the bible and the right books, then God will give us the life we desire, and the eternity we desire. That is poor theology. Our confessions express the exact opposite, that God chooses us before we ever choose Him. That God's ways are greater than our ways, and His knowledge and understanding are far greater than ours.
As human beings, we know we can tame many animals, we know we can control even ant colonies and bee colonies, and capture animals such as giraffs, snakes, frogs. We can cut down forests, drain land, plant crops, re-route rivers, move mountains, explore the moon, maybe even change climate. We have a lot of control, and can apparently tame or control most of this earth in some ways. But we cannot do that with God, because God is greater than us. Therefore God is untameable, uncontrollable by us.
That doesn't mean that God does not keep his promises. God is still faithful and true. But God is our Lord and Master, which means that ultimately God is the initiator, not us.
Re: August's comment and Al's response: I think that spiritual leadership includes keeping an eye on the songs, particularly on the wordings of the songs, but also on how and when they are sung, and on who is leading the singing. A song leader must also exhibit spiritual leadership; they should not be living lifestyles that contradict either the songs, or the spiritual message that is presented every Sunday. However, there is not just one way of monitoring or evaluating the songs. In our worship we have a number of songs chosen by a song leader or praise team, and a number of songs chosen by the preacher. We also usually have a couple songs early on after the children's story, which is just before the main service, which are sometimes favorites selected by the children. Usually this works out okay, but sometimes they select songs which are questionable. Sometimes they are sung, sometimes the leader will divert to a different song. For example, some very young children will sometimes ask for "Twinkle, Twinkle little star", which to me is a bit, well... infantile.. but then they are very young children, after all. But Twinkle, twinkle little star can end with the line, "God has placed you where you are." Which brings it into a worship context. The problem is that if we revert to the older familiar "How I wonder what you are", then we have missed the point, and are missing an opportunity.
I would suggest that children's songs can be as much of a minefield as anything, partly because we want to humor the children, partly because we don't seem to expect as much from them. But every incident and every song is an opportunity for teaching, and if we miss that, then we are inadvertently hurting our children. And children can learn good songs just as easily as they learn bad songs and ditties. So maybe we should start there.
As a side note, we have a twelve year old girl who plays the drums and cymbals in accompaniement along with the piano and the singing, for almost every praise song and congregational hymn that we sing. She has a knack for making it blend and fit, and it is neat to see and hear.
Richard, it would seem to me that supporting someone who might be villified for his christian belief, is different than persecuting someone who is not a christian.
Ryan, is our humanity dependant on our perfection? Would you be willing to abort an imperfect baby because they are less human? It is in our humanity that we sin as human beings. It is in our humanity that Christ restores us to Himself.
Debra, Jesus talked about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife(not a man cleaving to a man). Paul mentioned the sin of homosex, Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10 . The fact that there is no record of Jesus discussing it in detail proves nothing. It was so obviously wrong that it did not need to be discussed. No one is denying anyone the right to be celibate.
Posted in: What We Don't See [Video]
Yes, maybe we should see injustice where we don't see it now. But how does speaking in generalities help? Will you be more likely to help someone because they are unjustly treated than simply because they have a need? Will you adopt an orphan quicker because they are unjustly an orphan, than because they are an orphan who has a need? Will you adopt an orphan due to a tsunami less quickly than an orphan whose mother simply abandoned her? Will you adopt a handicapped orphan quicker because no one else will, than a healthy whole child for whom adoptive parents are competing?
If a person cannot get a job because they have no skills, is that unjust? Do you then help them to get some skills, or just complain about injustice? or try to create work for them? or give them some food? or ignore them because there is no injustice?
In order to make sense of injustice, you need to be specific, don't you think?
Posted in: Mental Illness or Moral Illness?
Julia, interesting comment on Aristotle's moral compass. It seems that in general, he equates virtue with moderation. Eg. Don't be too courageous, but don't be too afraid. or... don't be too stingy, but not too generous either. While this often seems to be common sense, it is not the kind of standard we want to apply to Christian living, it seems to me. It is a bit arbitrary... and ends up saying something like, have faith, but not too much faith. Pray some, but don't pray too much.
I believe that common sense and balance does play a role, but that doesn't mean that somehow using common sense is more virtuous than stepping out in faith. Jesus command to the rich man to sell all he had and follow HIm might seem to lead to the vice of carelessness by worldly and aristotelian standards, but Jesus' standards are different. For Jesus, fishing for men instead of for fish, is not as extreme as many might think. Caring for and sharing with the poor is okay, no matter how extreme. Claiming all the world (not just Sundays) for Christ is the right kind of extreme.
I wonder if the first type of illness we ought to be thinking of is spiritual illness. Spiritual illness would be a misunderstanding of who God is, or a denial of God, or lack of a confident relationship with God. It is this type of illness that often leads to a moral quagmire, sometimes moral illness, since there is no real reference point for truth and behaviour outside of oneself and thus might lead to all kinds of immoral behaviour. This is a situation where there is no immunity or resistance anymore to the immoral behaviour which is displayed by others on tv or internet or magazines or conversation.
I would think spiritual illness can also lead to some types of mental illness, once that realization of a lack of reference point, and a lack of purpose, a lack of real relationship sinks in. This can be a common cause of depression and anger and unhappiness, both for non-christians, but also sometimes for christians.
Moral illness leads directly to sin, and because we cannot always read the heart, we must deal with the sin more than with the moral illness that might cause us to sin. But moral illness can be catching, even for Christians. It helps if we put a quarantine on ourselves or on those who are morally ill, so that it will not infect us. On the other hand, spiritual health can heal the heart, will help us to resist, and our relationship with God will have an impact on how we live.
Posted in: Everyone's A Deacon!
What's interesting, is that the same basic word used for deacon is also used for (translated into) "minister" and "ministry".
Posted in: Why Seminaries Need Scientists, Artists, Economists and Athletes on Staff
Presumably, most seminary graduates would have learned most of their world view perspectives and "every square inch belongs to God" before they attended seminary. Hopefully they would have attended Christian world-view colleges.
Posted in: Climbing Together: What Disability Concerns is All About
Elly, your story is great, with the help of people to get a quadriplegic on a hiking trip. But if you google Camrose Alberta for a 3D view, you will not see any mountains at all anywhere from Camrose. An 8000 foot mountain is pretty high, and Camrose is still in the prairie part of Alberta. Should the location have been Canmore perhaps?
These stories are great! I am reminded of a girl, Colleen Buitendyk, who has been in a wheelchair all her life with cerebral palsy, who used to enjoy having a two wheel cart attached to her powered wheel chair and pulling little kids behind her in it, across the grass and the gravel parking area at our place. Or her independance in tearing across the playing field at the local Bible Camp.
I am reminded of a nephew in a wheel chair with mental capacity issues, who attended his sister's wedding. When the minister asked her if she would take "this man to be her husband", her younger brother yelled out, "No!" .... and there were some chuckles.... and no one was upset.... and the wedding went on....
Posted in: Is Teacher/Leader Orientation Essential?
Jolanda, I appreciate what you've said here. It is really important for the teachers to capture the vision. This helps them to go beyond just going through the motions, to realizing that we are helping our children to put on the full armor of God, in an eternal life and death situation.
Posted in: Using Your Hebrew and Greek
Verlyn, since you appear to enjoy the Greek, could you verify for me (and others) the apparent imperative in the Lord's Prayer for the statements which are called the first, second, and third requests? It would almost seem possible that these three requests are praises to God as well. ie. "hallowed be Your Name" or Hallowed is Your Name"....
Posted in: Commissioned Pastors: A Rose By Another Name?
Commissioned pastor sounds okay to me. All pastors are commissioned essentially, after all.
I think that the problem we have with "official" roles, and the unofficial giftings, is that they do not always correspond exactly to each other. So we have pastors who are evangelists, and apostles who are teachers, and commissioned pastors who are preachers. What does this all mean then? What is it that we are really getting hung up on? Where do the elders and deacons fit in to all of this? Why is it that the primary mention of a particular office has to do with offices of elder and deacon, and not with qualifications of teachers and pastors(commissioned or otherwise)?
I once attended a service at a church in Florida, where they did not have official pastors or ministers as such, but only elders, who functioned as preachers and pastors.
How can we separate our desire for education and a learned approach to preaching and teaching and pastoral care, from our innate human desire for categories, titles, and earthly honor? How can we honor theological learning and education appropriately, without honoring them above the necessary respect due to the gifting of the spirit within the heart of a person. How do we honor a particular office of authority, without supposing that formal education is sufficient to grant that authority?
Posted in: Check Out the Music
The song "Indescribable", written by Chris Tomlin, available on the internet to read and/or listen to. Untameable is kind of the opposite of "best buddy"... Untameable is also the opposite of treating God like a pet. It's theopposite of "tameable".
Posted in: Check Out the Music
To elaborate a wee bit more.... when someone says that untameable infers that it should be tameable, I think we are getting words and inferences mixed up. Untameable does not infer that it should be tameable. The word "Untamed" might infer that, or might suggest that taming is still possible. "Untameable" is different than untamed, and means that no matter how much you might try, no matter what the circumstances, God (or some animals or some people) are not controllable by others. It says nothing at all about whether they "should" be controllable.
As people, we often think or act as if God follows our lead. If we pray the right prayers, sing the right songs, read the bible and the right books, then God will give us the life we desire, and the eternity we desire. That is poor theology. Our confessions express the exact opposite, that God chooses us before we ever choose Him. That God's ways are greater than our ways, and His knowledge and understanding are far greater than ours.
As human beings, we know we can tame many animals, we know we can control even ant colonies and bee colonies, and capture animals such as giraffs, snakes, frogs. We can cut down forests, drain land, plant crops, re-route rivers, move mountains, explore the moon, maybe even change climate. We have a lot of control, and can apparently tame or control most of this earth in some ways. But we cannot do that with God, because God is greater than us. Therefore God is untameable, uncontrollable by us.
That doesn't mean that God does not keep his promises. God is still faithful and true. But God is our Lord and Master, which means that ultimately God is the initiator, not us.
Posted in: Check Out the Music
Re: August's comment and Al's response: I think that spiritual leadership includes keeping an eye on the songs, particularly on the wordings of the songs, but also on how and when they are sung, and on who is leading the singing. A song leader must also exhibit spiritual leadership; they should not be living lifestyles that contradict either the songs, or the spiritual message that is presented every Sunday. However, there is not just one way of monitoring or evaluating the songs. In our worship we have a number of songs chosen by a song leader or praise team, and a number of songs chosen by the preacher. We also usually have a couple songs early on after the children's story, which is just before the main service, which are sometimes favorites selected by the children. Usually this works out okay, but sometimes they select songs which are questionable. Sometimes they are sung, sometimes the leader will divert to a different song. For example, some very young children will sometimes ask for "Twinkle, Twinkle little star", which to me is a bit, well... infantile.. but then they are very young children, after all. But Twinkle, twinkle little star can end with the line, "God has placed you where you are." Which brings it into a worship context. The problem is that if we revert to the older familiar "How I wonder what you are", then we have missed the point, and are missing an opportunity.
I would suggest that children's songs can be as much of a minefield as anything, partly because we want to humor the children, partly because we don't seem to expect as much from them. But every incident and every song is an opportunity for teaching, and if we miss that, then we are inadvertently hurting our children. And children can learn good songs just as easily as they learn bad songs and ditties. So maybe we should start there.
As a side note, we have a twelve year old girl who plays the drums and cymbals in accompaniement along with the piano and the singing, for almost every praise song and congregational hymn that we sing. She has a knack for making it blend and fit, and it is neat to see and hear.
Posted in: Are You Prejudiced and the Chick-fil-A Controversy
Richard, it would seem to me that supporting someone who might be villified for his christian belief, is different than persecuting someone who is not a christian.
Ryan, is our humanity dependant on our perfection? Would you be willing to abort an imperfect baby because they are less human? It is in our humanity that we sin as human beings. It is in our humanity that Christ restores us to Himself.
Debra, Jesus talked about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving to his wife(not a man cleaving to a man). Paul mentioned the sin of homosex, Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10 . The fact that there is no record of Jesus discussing it in detail proves nothing. It was so obviously wrong that it did not need to be discussed. No one is denying anyone the right to be celibate.