Like in many churches and other denominations, when you have women serving as elders or delegates, often the men become less interested in serving, and so fewer men volunteer to offer their time, especially men who feel that scripture actually encourages men to be leaders both of their families and their church, and thus feel that synod is ignoring or twisting scripture in any case. That is probably one aspect of this.
Another aspect is likely the diversions and artificial aspects of organizational power and institutional unification, which dilutes even more the impact of any elder delegates to a larger body. If you don't actually contribute to the discussion, and if your vote becomes less and less significant, then the only remaining reason to attend is social, or entertainment. For many, the social enticement is minimal if their social core is more significant locally, and we live in a world of entertainment; don't have to go to Synod for that. Who wants to spend a whole week exercising power which one feels does not really exist? Power which you could just as well delegate your wife to exercise?
People of color? Good for them, but it is an artificial criteria of the quality or representativeness of synod. The real criteria would be what is the percentage of afroamericans in the denomination; what is the percentage of eastern europeans; what is the percentage of mexicans; what is the percentage of aboriginals, asians, africans, south americans. Relating everything to color is very primitive way of evaluating anything, and a sad commentary on our perception of diversity. in the 21st century.
In addition to your comment that not all delegates need be males, it would also be useful and helpful to add the comment that there is nothing wrong with all the delegates being males, and that it is more obviously consistent with scriptural precedents. (Given that we supposedly promote this type of diversity in the crc.)
As I am thinking along here, I have another question (so many questions...) does preaching alone make you a pastor? or ought there also to be some pastoral activities besides preaching? Perhaps some would say you are a preacher but not a pastor.... a retired pastor who does some occasional preaching....
If an elder were to do some preaching, would that automatically make him a pastor? Following your example...
So, I decided to look once more at the form for ordination of elders and deacons. What do I see? ambiguity of language. "We intend to ordain elders and deacons and install them...." Of course, "they received this task when Christ entrusted the apostles and their successors"... interestingly not presumably for specified terms.
The church order talks about equal honor for all offices, and then allocates 25 articles to "ministers" and only one lonely article to be shared between elders and deacons. Ministers don't need to be re-ordained when called to another church, but elders, even in the same church presumably need to be re-ordained over and over again? Even though they have not been deposed, or disciplined, etc. Then, is it equal in honor to allocate one combined form of ordination to two different offices, of elder and deacon, while the office of "minister" cannot even share a form with "evangelist" or ministerial associate??? In fact, there are two alternate forms for ministerial ordination, the second one being 6.5 pages long. This is allocating equal honor to all the offices? I don't think so.
Maybe this is part of the reason it is difficult to get elders to serve.
'This is my Father's World" has been a favorite of mine since childhood. "When I survey the wondrous cross.... and pour contempt on all my pride..." 'Beautiful Saviour, Lord of the Nations..." "It is no secret... what God can do..." "Because He lives... I can face tomorrow... all fear is gone..."
I still think using racial color diversity as a determinator or substitute for cultural or ethnic diversity is a primitive and unchristian way of thinking. Color is obvious, but not the most significant. Nor is it the best indicator of diversity. If you have a bunch of black doctors and accountants in your church, but cannot reach out to the black mechanics, janitors, and the "yellow" waitresses and cleaning staff, then you have a phony picture of what it means to be diverse. If you have some black or "colored" folk in leadership, but can't find a way to include the mexican immigrants, or the japanese immigrants, or the russian or arab immigrants, and if the Italians, Hungarians and Finnish people are culturally uncomfortable, then you only look good on the outside. You've then only overcome a barrier in a "worldly" culturally acceptable manner.
The reason there are more ethnic minority delegates from the Korean churches, is probably because there are more CRC Koreans. What ethnicities did the other eight minority delegates come from, and are they roughly representative of the ethnicities of the crc?
And..... perhaps not just 35%, but all people in leadership should be people of color, since why in the world would we want "colorless" people in leadership positions? just funnin... :o)
Gregory Matthew Kuglin, I appreciate your dedication to scripture as the divine writings. It sounds like you are in agreement with article 7 of the Belgic Confession. I believe all the confessions stress the primary authority of scripture. The confessions are merely meant to summarize scripture, not to take precedence over scripture.
Just one point about Jeremiah 35. It seems that Jehovah actually honored the recabites for the way they followed the teachings of their forefathers, to live in tents and not drink wine, since it was used as an example of how the Israelites should have followed the teachings and commands of God. The recabites were promised as a result that they would always have someone in their family to serve the Lord (vs19).
But the teachings of the fathers do need to be measured against the teachings of scripture. The recabites did not apparently contradict what scripture had taught in the commandments, although the advice/command of the forefather Jonadab was not directly required by scriptures, but it was a good advice/command.
The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Like in many churches and other denominations, when you have women serving as elders or delegates, often the men become less interested in serving, and so fewer men volunteer to offer their time, especially men who feel that scripture actually encourages men to be leaders both of their families and their church, and thus feel that synod is ignoring or twisting scripture in any case. That is probably one aspect of this.
Another aspect is likely the diversions and artificial aspects of organizational power and institutional unification, which dilutes even more the impact of any elder delegates to a larger body. If you don't actually contribute to the discussion, and if your vote becomes less and less significant, then the only remaining reason to attend is social, or entertainment. For many, the social enticement is minimal if their social core is more significant locally, and we live in a world of entertainment; don't have to go to Synod for that. Who wants to spend a whole week exercising power which one feels does not really exist? Power which you could just as well delegate your wife to exercise?
People of color? Good for them, but it is an artificial criteria of the quality or representativeness of synod. The real criteria would be what is the percentage of afroamericans in the denomination; what is the percentage of eastern europeans; what is the percentage of mexicans; what is the percentage of aboriginals, asians, africans, south americans. Relating everything to color is very primitive way of evaluating anything, and a sad commentary on our perception of diversity. in the 21st century.
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
In addition to your comment that not all delegates need be males, it would also be useful and helpful to add the comment that there is nothing wrong with all the delegates being males, and that it is more obviously consistent with scriptural precedents. (Given that we supposedly promote this type of diversity in the crc.)
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
As I am thinking along here, I have another question (so many questions...) does preaching alone make you a pastor? or ought there also to be some pastoral activities besides preaching? Perhaps some would say you are a preacher but not a pastor.... a retired pastor who does some occasional preaching....
If an elder were to do some preaching, would that automatically make him a pastor? Following your example...
(or just a preacher?)
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
So, I decided to look once more at the form for ordination of elders and deacons. What do I see? ambiguity of language. "We intend to ordain elders and deacons and install them...." Of course, "they received this task when Christ entrusted the apostles and their successors"... interestingly not presumably for specified terms.
The church order talks about equal honor for all offices, and then allocates 25 articles to "ministers" and only one lonely article to be shared between elders and deacons. Ministers don't need to be re-ordained when called to another church, but elders, even in the same church presumably need to be re-ordained over and over again? Even though they have not been deposed, or disciplined, etc. Then, is it equal in honor to allocate one combined form of ordination to two different offices, of elder and deacon, while the office of "minister" cannot even share a form with "evangelist" or ministerial associate??? In fact, there are two alternate forms for ministerial ordination, the second one being 6.5 pages long. This is allocating equal honor to all the offices? I don't think so.
Maybe this is part of the reason it is difficult to get elders to serve.
John Z
Posted in: The Unsung Jesus
'This is my Father's World" has been a favorite of mine since childhood. "When I survey the wondrous cross.... and pour contempt on all my pride..." 'Beautiful Saviour, Lord of the Nations..." "It is no secret... what God can do..." "Because He lives... I can face tomorrow... all fear is gone..."
Posted in: Annual Review
Good points, Neil.
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
I still think using racial color diversity as a determinator or substitute for cultural or ethnic diversity is a primitive and unchristian way of thinking. Color is obvious, but not the most significant. Nor is it the best indicator of diversity. If you have a bunch of black doctors and accountants in your church, but cannot reach out to the black mechanics, janitors, and the "yellow" waitresses and cleaning staff, then you have a phony picture of what it means to be diverse. If you have some black or "colored" folk in leadership, but can't find a way to include the mexican immigrants, or the japanese immigrants, or the russian or arab immigrants, and if the Italians, Hungarians and Finnish people are culturally uncomfortable, then you only look good on the outside. You've then only overcome a barrier in a "worldly" culturally acceptable manner.
The reason there are more ethnic minority delegates from the Korean churches, is probably because there are more CRC Koreans. What ethnicities did the other eight minority delegates come from, and are they roughly representative of the ethnicities of the crc?
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
And..... perhaps not just 35%, but all people in leadership should be people of color, since why in the world would we want "colorless" people in leadership positions? just funnin... :o)
Posted in: Does the CRC Have a Pope?
Gregory Matthew Kuglin, I appreciate your dedication to scripture as the divine writings. It sounds like you are in agreement with article 7 of the Belgic Confession. I believe all the confessions stress the primary authority of scripture. The confessions are merely meant to summarize scripture, not to take precedence over scripture.
Just one point about Jeremiah 35. It seems that Jehovah actually honored the recabites for the way they followed the teachings of their forefathers, to live in tents and not drink wine, since it was used as an example of how the Israelites should have followed the teachings and commands of God. The recabites were promised as a result that they would always have someone in their family to serve the Lord (vs19).
But the teachings of the fathers do need to be measured against the teachings of scripture. The recabites did not apparently contradict what scripture had taught in the commandments, although the advice/command of the forefather Jonadab was not directly required by scriptures, but it was a good advice/command.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Josh Benton, you have raised a new point, and I think it is an interesting and valid point.
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.