I still think using racial color diversity as a determinator or substitute for cultural or ethnic diversity is a primitive and unchristian way of thinking. Color is obvious, but not the most significant. Nor is it the best indicator of diversity. If you have a bunch of black doctors and accountants in your church, but cannot reach out to the black mechanics, janitors, and the "yellow" waitresses and cleaning staff, then you have a phony picture of what it means to be diverse. If you have some black or "colored" folk in leadership, but can't find a way to include the mexican immigrants, or the japanese immigrants, or the russian or arab immigrants, and if the Italians, Hungarians and Finnish people are culturally uncomfortable, then you only look good on the outside. You've then only overcome a barrier in a "worldly" culturally acceptable manner.
The reason there are more ethnic minority delegates from the Korean churches, is probably because there are more CRC Koreans. What ethnicities did the other eight minority delegates come from, and are they roughly representative of the ethnicities of the crc?
And..... perhaps not just 35%, but all people in leadership should be people of color, since why in the world would we want "colorless" people in leadership positions? just funnin... :o)
Gregory Matthew Kuglin, I appreciate your dedication to scripture as the divine writings. It sounds like you are in agreement with article 7 of the Belgic Confession. I believe all the confessions stress the primary authority of scripture. The confessions are merely meant to summarize scripture, not to take precedence over scripture.
Just one point about Jeremiah 35. It seems that Jehovah actually honored the recabites for the way they followed the teachings of their forefathers, to live in tents and not drink wine, since it was used as an example of how the Israelites should have followed the teachings and commands of God. The recabites were promised as a result that they would always have someone in their family to serve the Lord (vs19).
But the teachings of the fathers do need to be measured against the teachings of scripture. The recabites did not apparently contradict what scripture had taught in the commandments, although the advice/command of the forefather Jonadab was not directly required by scriptures, but it was a good advice/command.
The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.
The decision for examination by classis should be left to the calling church. When a calling church can call previous employment and references they may decide that a classical exam is unecessary.
There are different types of supervision. Some is very tight and "hands-on". Other is supervision from a "distance", where much freedom is permitted and expected, and feedback is provided, both positive and negative, in a way to infer the individual responsibility of who-ever is being supervised. Sometimes more supervision is delegated, other times not. So one style does not fit every person or every situation.
Sometimes there is an expectation that every expectation be met. Other times there is an expectation of alternatives, or variety, so that not every expectation will be met. Supervision requires a degree of trust and respect, but also a way of evaluating whether the main objectives are being met. If children are to understand the confessions or doctrinal standards of the church, how will this happen, who will be responsible, and is it happening. Or if the church has a goal to reach out to the community, same thing... how will this happen, who is responsible, and is it happening. Is what is happening sufficient to achieve the goals and objectives? Is the reason for having the goal being satisfied?
There are different definitions of a job being done well. And sometimes these definitions change throughout the course of a project, a year, or an activity. Of course it is important to do a job well. But it is not just a job. It is a service, a worship, a fellowship. Merely doing the job well, based on laid-out expectations, may not serve the primary purpose of the worship, or the service or the fellowship. If that is not well understood, then the vision and the mission may be lost.
A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
I still think using racial color diversity as a determinator or substitute for cultural or ethnic diversity is a primitive and unchristian way of thinking. Color is obvious, but not the most significant. Nor is it the best indicator of diversity. If you have a bunch of black doctors and accountants in your church, but cannot reach out to the black mechanics, janitors, and the "yellow" waitresses and cleaning staff, then you have a phony picture of what it means to be diverse. If you have some black or "colored" folk in leadership, but can't find a way to include the mexican immigrants, or the japanese immigrants, or the russian or arab immigrants, and if the Italians, Hungarians and Finnish people are culturally uncomfortable, then you only look good on the outside. You've then only overcome a barrier in a "worldly" culturally acceptable manner.
The reason there are more ethnic minority delegates from the Korean churches, is probably because there are more CRC Koreans. What ethnicities did the other eight minority delegates come from, and are they roughly representative of the ethnicities of the crc?
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
And..... perhaps not just 35%, but all people in leadership should be people of color, since why in the world would we want "colorless" people in leadership positions? just funnin... :o)
Posted in: Does the CRC Have a Pope?
Gregory Matthew Kuglin, I appreciate your dedication to scripture as the divine writings. It sounds like you are in agreement with article 7 of the Belgic Confession. I believe all the confessions stress the primary authority of scripture. The confessions are merely meant to summarize scripture, not to take precedence over scripture.
Just one point about Jeremiah 35. It seems that Jehovah actually honored the recabites for the way they followed the teachings of their forefathers, to live in tents and not drink wine, since it was used as an example of how the Israelites should have followed the teachings and commands of God. The recabites were promised as a result that they would always have someone in their family to serve the Lord (vs19).
But the teachings of the fathers do need to be measured against the teachings of scripture. The recabites did not apparently contradict what scripture had taught in the commandments, although the advice/command of the forefather Jonadab was not directly required by scriptures, but it was a good advice/command.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
The only specific reference I could see in the church order with regard to reelecting an elder mentioned re-installation, not re-ordination. (Article 25)
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Josh Benton, you have raised a new point, and I think it is an interesting and valid point.
Posted in: Delegates by the Numbers
Mike, I understand what you mean. Delegates are not just to take certain positions from their council or classis and hold fast to them at all costs. They should deliberate. But, if representativeness is not an issue, why not just reduce the size of synod to about 20 people, randomly selected from different parts of the country, different ethnic origins, and different ages, in order to get the different viewpoints. You seem to be saying that representativeness is not important, and then contradicting that by saying that we need a different representation. I agree with you that it is not good to have only the pastor/minister perspective, and that the elders who have primary responsibility for the governance of the church, ought to be more proportionately represented.
I've suggested before, that if you can't find an elder to chair the classis, then classis should not be held. This is dramatic, but it makes the point. Perhaps it could also be applied to Synod.
Posted in: Classical Exams
The decision for examination by classis should be left to the calling church. When a calling church can call previous employment and references they may decide that a classical exam is unecessary.
Posted in: Supervision or Feedback
There are different types of supervision. Some is very tight and "hands-on". Other is supervision from a "distance", where much freedom is permitted and expected, and feedback is provided, both positive and negative, in a way to infer the individual responsibility of who-ever is being supervised. Sometimes more supervision is delegated, other times not. So one style does not fit every person or every situation.
Sometimes there is an expectation that every expectation be met. Other times there is an expectation of alternatives, or variety, so that not every expectation will be met. Supervision requires a degree of trust and respect, but also a way of evaluating whether the main objectives are being met. If children are to understand the confessions or doctrinal standards of the church, how will this happen, who will be responsible, and is it happening. Or if the church has a goal to reach out to the community, same thing... how will this happen, who is responsible, and is it happening. Is what is happening sufficient to achieve the goals and objectives? Is the reason for having the goal being satisfied?
There are different definitions of a job being done well. And sometimes these definitions change throughout the course of a project, a year, or an activity. Of course it is important to do a job well. But it is not just a job. It is a service, a worship, a fellowship. Merely doing the job well, based on laid-out expectations, may not serve the primary purpose of the worship, or the service or the fellowship. If that is not well understood, then the vision and the mission may be lost.
Good comments, Neil.
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
A broad consensus for something so long-lasting is better than a simple majority. This item is not a matter of process only, but of confessional stability. A simple majority fails the test.
A simple majority will result primarily in irrelevance. A confession or testimony that 40% of people are not willing to accept as authoritative will not carry credibility of governance.
Reluctant acceptance may lead to greater acceptance later, or it may also lead to an acceptance of irrelevance. Bill is right on this.
You indicate you are a retired pastor, and then say you are a pastor still. Can you be both? Or do you only wish to retain the title? Or is the title only validated by an accompanying salary? Curious.
Posted in: People of Color in Leadership Positions
Ken, I think using Jesus in this way is not legitimate. Jesus had twelve
> disciples, not a single one of which was a pharisee or saducee, until the
> apostle Paul, who had to change dramatically before he could truly follow
> Jesus. If you were going to follow that example, then not a single
> seminarian or professor could be a leadership disciple of Jesus. Jesus also did not
> have any samaritans or greeks or romans as his original 12 disciples, nor
> any women. This leadership did not have any quotas, nor was it
> representative of the body of Christ. Quotas for Leadership in the church
> of Christ does not solve any injustice; leadership is about serving and
> proclaiming Christ. You could have any quota system you want, and the
> leadership could still be injust. Or, if it follows christ, it could
> proclaim justice. You should not confuse worldly ideals of color equality
> and representation with God's justice.
>
Posted in: Like a Mighty Turtle...
I should also point out that the different requirements for prior notification between changes to church order and changes to supplements is artificial and nonsensical. There is no significant difference between the impacts of a supplement and the impacts of a change to the church order that should require different notification procedures or considerations. They should be treated the same.
Posted in: Transition Planning
It is good to have an informal policy of a good mix of active elders in consistory, also a good mix of active deacons. While putting in new elders, always make sure that there are some experienced older elders and deacons there to lead and train the others. The new ones will have some fresh and new ideas which the older ones will appreciate, while the older ones will be able to provide a good framework and context and stability in which the new ideas can work well.